Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Another absurd scenario  (Read 820 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

AJD

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3105
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +4059
    • View Profile
Another absurd scenario
« on: July 03, 2021, 10:48:14 pm »
+2

Encampment is supposed to be returned to the supply "at the start of Clean-up". If an Encampment is somehow played during the Clean-up phase (uhhhhh Hermit --> gain Madman --> play Sheepdog / Way of the Mouse / Vassal --> Encampment) and set aside, is it returned to the supply at the start of Clean-up during the next player's turn? On my next turn? Some other time?
Logged

dz

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 135
  • Shuffle iT Username: DZ
  • Respect: +180
    • View Profile
Re: Another absurd scenario
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2021, 11:59:37 pm »
0

Encampment is supposed to be returned to the supply "at the start of Clean-up". If an Encampment is somehow played during the Clean-up phase (uhhhhh Hermit --> gain Madman --> play Sheepdog / Way of the Mouse / Vassal --> Encampment) and set aside, is it returned to the supply at the start of Clean-up during the next player's turn? On my next turn? Some other time?

You return the Encampment this turn. You can already do this without anything from Menagerie, by Improving a Poor House into Encampment, and then using Innovation.

Similarly if you play a Hireling at the start of your turn (uh you draw a Hireling dead, but you have the +buy to use Delay on it), you draw a card immediately. And if you play an Improve at the start of Clean-up (again with Innovation), you can use the Improve this turn.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9119
  • Respect: +9969
    • View Profile
Re: Another absurd scenario
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2021, 01:09:00 am »
+3

Encampment is supposed to be returned to the supply "at the start of Clean-up". If an Encampment is somehow played during the Clean-up phase (uhhhhh Hermit --> gain Madman --> play Sheepdog / Way of the Mouse / Vassal --> Encampment) and set aside, is it returned to the supply at the start of Clean-up during the next player's turn? On my next turn? Some other time?

You return the Encampment this turn. You can already do this without anything from Menagerie, by Improving a Poor House into Encampment, and then using Innovation.

Similarly if you play a Hireling at the start of your turn (uh you draw a Hireling dead, but you have the +buy to use Delay on it), you draw a card immediately. And if you play an Improve at the start of Clean-up (again with Innovation), you can use the Improve this turn.

I think this is different... Improve works "at the start of Clean-up", which is the same timing as Encampment; so that's much more similar to simple scenarios like using Secret Chamber to draw Moat and then revealing that Moat to prevent an attack.

But Hermit is not "at the start of Clean-up", it's when you discard Hermit from play. By the time Hermit triggers, "at the start of Clean-up" is over, and things that trigger "at the start of Clean-up" have all finished. If you wanted to use Improve and Hermit on the same turn, you would have to use Improve first, because it triggers first. It's kind of like how "when-buy" triggers before "when-gain".

I think the answer to the OP is that it would get returned to the supply pile at the next time there is a "start of the Clean-up" trigger happening, which would be clean-up of the next turn.

Note that the Wiki has this ruling:

Quote
If you somehow play this at the start of Clean-up, and it sets itself aside, it will immediately return to the Supply.

But that only deals with the Improve-type scenario, not with Hermit.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2021, 01:10:30 am by GendoIkari »
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

dz

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 135
  • Shuffle iT Username: DZ
  • Respect: +180
    • View Profile
Re: Another absurd scenario
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2021, 01:44:30 pm »
+3

Oh I didn't even read AJD's example carefully, that's embarrassing.

Well speaking of Hermit, Donald X. has announced on discord that whenever Dark Ages gets reprinted, Hermit will be getting errata.

Quote from: Donald X.
I haven't committed to a wording yet; it will be playtested and argued about. But the plan is, no dividing line, trigger at end of buy phase.

This means that you can no longer topdeck a Hermit and gain a Madman (with Way of the Frog or Scheme). No dividing line also means that Ways (that aren't Chameleon) and Enchantress will also block you from getting Madman.

It's still not known if it will be worded like Exploration yet (which works differently with Villa and Black Market); that's what Donald X. means by not yet having committed to a wording. Once a final wording is announced, I'll probably add these rules clarifications to the wiki.

(Since I know people are going to get sad about losing these interactions, my response is: man Hermit is already one of the strongest cards in the game, it can take the nerf. Those complaints about the Procession errata back in 2019 are nonsense.)

So why the change?

Quote from: Donald X.
Nerfing just isn't a motivation behind the Hermit changes. The idea is to not have it matter what order you discard your cards in in Clean-up, to not have it be that any effect in Dominion can happen in-between discarding some and the rest.

This errata is supposed to deal with rules questions like "do I discard my hand first, or my played cards first" (which may matter if you want to topdeck the gained Madman with Sleigh). There are other annoying questions like "I have a 5 Highways in play and Catacombs cost 0. During Clean-up, I trash Hermit and then trash Catacombs with Sewers; do I gain a card?" If you discard a Highway first, yes; otherwise no. And while these Clean-up shenanigans technically work irl, it's a nightmare for the online version.

The errata also gets rid of AJD's scenario, and so that's my new answer for their question: use the errata.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5940
  • Respect: +23908
    • View Profile
Re: Another absurd scenario
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2021, 02:08:50 pm »
+6

Encampment is supposed to be returned to the supply "at the start of Clean-up". If an Encampment is somehow played during the Clean-up phase (uhhhhh Hermit --> gain Madman --> play Sheepdog / Way of the Mouse / Vassal --> Encampment) and set aside, is it returned to the supply at the start of Clean-up during the next player's turn? On my next turn? Some other time?
If you play it after the start of clean-up, you will return it to the supply at the start of the next Clean-up that happens, whoever's turn it is.

As mentioned I already have big plans to reword Hermit whenever Dark Ages is next reprinted, to move that ability to the end of the buy phase, so that nothing is happening mid-clean-up except discarding cards and in a few cases topdecking them.
Logged
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.103 seconds with 22 queries.