Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2 3  All

Author Topic: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season  (Read 6252 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

mxdata

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1086
  • Respect: +1214
    • View Profile
Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
« on: July 03, 2021, 01:01:37 am »
+1

For week 14, we'll be exploring Asper's Season cards

Season cards are cards whose abilities change as the game proceeds.

Quote
When one or more Season cards are in the Supply, use the Season mat. The Season Mat has 20 spaces on it that go in a circle, and shows the 4 Seasons. A token is used to track the current time of year, starting the game on space 1, the first of Spring. After each full round (that is, after the last player in turn order took their turn) the token is moved forward one space. After each 5 turns a new Season begins. Summer starts with turn 6, Fall with turn 11, and Winter with 16. After turn 20 it is Spring again, and so on. Season cards check the current Season and do different things depending on it.

EDIT: For the purposes of this contest, Asper's original rules will be modified.  The "year" will be 12 turns, with each season being 3.  This means that it'll be quite common to return back to spring later in the game. If you want to keep the original 20-turn system, just specify that in your entry

For practical purposes, it's probably advisable to have whichever player goes last be the one to move the token at the end of their turn, to best ensure that it not get forgotten

A Season card does not have to have exactly four different functions, just as long as there's at least two, which depend on the season. Several of Asper's cards have one function in Spring and Summer and another in Fall and Winter, for example, and there have the same in-play effect, but different on-gain effects depending on season. That would qualify as well.  Basically, as long as there's any differences that relate to Seasons, it will qualify.  All cards would include Season as a type.  While all but one of Asper's examples are Actions (with the remaining being a Victory card), they could be any type, so Night or Treasure would also qualify. Traveller and Split piles (unless only the top is a Season card) are excluded, because by the time you get to the later cards in a Traveller line, or the bottom half of a Split pile, you're likely to be pretty late in the game. It should also be an actual supply card, and not a landscape or a non-supply card

Judging will be based on how balanced the cards are, and how thematically appropriate the season connection is and/or how well the different functions work in the early game vs the late game  Baliff, for example, starts out as a trasher that becomes a gainer.  Trashing is particularly useful in the early game, but often becomes less useful later in the game once all the junk has been trashed, while gaining up to $5 is useful late in the game where you may want to go for Duchies, and it could also be seen as thematically appropriate, i.e., spring cleaning and fattening up in the Fall

For the card generator, we'll use the Way color for Seasons

The deadline will be 12:00 AM my time (CDT), Saturday July 10, that's 1:00 AM July 10 forum time, and I will give a 24-hour warning
« Last Edit: July 03, 2021, 04:44:20 am by mxdata »
Logged
They/them

The Alchemist

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 175
  • Respect: +211
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2021, 03:17:38 am »
0

I personally think 20 turns for a full cycle is a bit antiquated. In 2013, a game lasting 20 turns was pretty conceivable, and slogs were more common. I think the average turn length of games has decreased by almost 2 turns since the days of isotropic if I recall correctly. Therefore, I think it appropriate to use for myself (and anyone else who agrees with my assessment), a 12-turn tracker. This way one would be guaranteed to at least reach winter in most games (assuming we start in spring), since even the fastest strategies on average end around turns 10-11, with normal games of 14-15 turns still just barely into the new spring. It also has the added benefit of thematically fitting with the 12 months of the year, which I think is nice. Here is a sample tracker I found:



I will replace the above picture with one I am making in photoshop. Either way, I think this concept can be very interesting!

Logged

mxdata

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1086
  • Respect: +1214
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2021, 04:11:47 am »
+1

I personally think 20 turns for a full cycle is a bit antiquated. In 2013, a game lasting 20 turns was pretty conceivable, and slogs were more common. I think the average turn length of games has decreased by almost 2 turns since the days of isotropic if I recall correctly. Therefore, I think it appropriate to use for myself (and anyone else who agrees with my assessment), a 12-turn tracker. This way one would be guaranteed to at least reach winter in most games (assuming we start in spring), since even the fastest strategies on average end around turns 10-11, with normal games of 14-15 turns still just barely into the new spring. It also has the added benefit of thematically fitting with the 12 months of the year, which I think is nice. Here is a sample tracker I found:



I will replace the above picture with one I am making in photoshop. Either way, I think this concept can be very interesting!

I think the point of 20 turns was to make it so that it would be uncommon to return to Spring, so that the Spring condition usually only happens at the start of the game.  Twelve turns would be far too short, making it so that you almost always get a second Spring at least, and not uncommonly a second Summer.  Making it so that it's common to repeat the season cycle would change how Seasons in general work
Logged
They/them

The Alchemist

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 175
  • Respect: +211
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2021, 04:30:12 am »
+3

If the intention was for Spring to not be seen again, then I don't see why 20 was chosen, since plenty of games go past 20. I thought it was more intuitive that you'd want to see Spring again, because you're obviously not going to play the cards in the first two turns, and that leaves Spring in basically t3-5, meaning any card that mentions Spring with the 20 turn system either needs to be an opener or is just irrelevant, and I don't think that's smart design wise. In fact, I think it would be more interesting with an approach that does see Spring again most games, it makes that season relevant and is kind of nice thematically. If its 20 turns, then Winter effects are just going to be sad in general because most games you'll just never see them. So I don't see why making two seasons virtually irrelevant is worth ensuring seasons don't double up (which honestly doesn't seem that big an issue anyway. I'd rather expect to be able to see at least an entire season most games than just expect to end around Autumn). However all that said, I can see the argument for 16 turns, since that's just a bit longer than the average game at 15.5 turns.


Anyway, here is my first attempt at a card (built for a 12 or 16 turn season).



No idea if this is balanced, still testing the waters a bit. Not sure if seasons as a whole should be stronger or weaker than their each individual effect. I went with strongest in winter/autumn and weakest in spring/summer here.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2021, 06:04:44 am by The Alchemist »
Logged

mxdata

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1086
  • Respect: +1214
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2021, 04:42:34 am »
0

If the intention was for Spring to not be seen again, then I don't see why 20 was chosen, since plenty of games go past 20. I thought it was more intuitive that you'd want to see Spring again, because you're obviously not going to play the cards in the first two turns, and that leaves Spring in basically t3-5, meaning any card that mentions Spring with the 20 turn system either needs to be an opener or is just irrelevant, and I don't think that's smart design wise. In fact, I think it would be more interesting with an approach that does see Spring again most games, it makes that season relevant and is kind of nice thematically. If its 20 turns, then Winter effects are just going to be sad in general because most games you'll just never see them. So I don't see why making two seasons virtually irrelevant is worth ensuring seasons don't double up (which honestly doesn't seem that big an issue anyway. I'd rather expect to be able to see at least an entire season most games than just expect to end around Autumn). However all that said, I can see the argument for 16 turns, since that's just a bit longer than the average game.


Anyway, here is my first attempt at a card (built for a 12 or 16 turn season).



No idea if this is balanced, still testing the waters a bit. Not sure if seasons as a whole should be stronger or weaker than their each individual effect. I went with strongest in winter/autumn and weakest in spring/summer here.

You make some good points. Let's go ahead and modify the rules then, for a 12-turn "year". If anyone wants to go with the original 20-turn or a different number like 16, they can do that too, just specify that that's the intention
Logged
They/them

The Alchemist

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 175
  • Respect: +211
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2021, 06:10:09 am »
0


It is obviously overpowered.
Fugitive and a cantrip that trashes are $4.5, cantrip workshop is a $5 and Lab plus Market Square is at least a $6.

I'm not sure if that's obvious. Each of those bonuses are are intentionally worth more than $4, because you only get each of those bonuses a limited time. It's a cantrip that trashes yes, but it'll only be that for a 3 turn window, meaning it basically a one-shot, or two-shot if you're lucky. You lose out on a lot of regularity and consistency you'd get from having just a cantrip trasher, so I think that makes the card overall weaker than what each of the components would give you. Its not like a "choose one", where having options makes the card as a whole stronger than any individual option, its the opposite. It's "you don't get to choose one". But hey maybe I'm wrong, maybe the versatility is enough to counter the inconsistency, but for sure I don't think the normal rules of judging card strength by cost of individual effects applies here.
Logged

The Alchemist

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 175
  • Respect: +211
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2021, 05:39:18 pm »
+1


Sift, trash, gain, draw. That's ALWAYS useful.


It's always useful *when you want it*. If you don't have control over when its each of those things, then it is strictly worse than any of those things individually. You may get Tempest in summer without the cards you want to trash, or really need to gain a card but miss Autumn by a turn, etc. For example, a cantrip trasher is significantly weaker when you only have a 3 turn to trash all your junk cards, and then not again for 9 turns. So my logic is, 4 effects that are all ~$5, are weakened significantly by the season mechanic, and then brought back up to $4 when we combine 4 of them together.

I will submit though that this card in particular is too strong, I think a good Season card will have each individual effect be $4.5 if its a $4, or each effect be a $4 if it's a $3.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2021, 05:42:46 pm by The Alchemist »
Logged

The Alchemist

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 175
  • Respect: +211
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2021, 06:42:12 pm »
0

Alright I've tweaked the card a bit:


Now each individual effect is reasonably a $4.5, which is nice because it offers a way to bring those 4 cards into the game where right now they can't be standalone. A mix of cards that could have been. Spring is inspired by Wind's gift, Summer by Fire's gift, Autumn was Earth's gift inspired but now its more Field's gift, and now Winter is Snowy Village inspired.
Logged

spineflu

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1365
  • Shuffle iT Username: spineflu
  • Head Empty, Heart Worms, Can't Lose
  • Respect: +1331
    • View Profile
    • my instagram, where i paint things
Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2021, 11:30:47 pm »
0



Quote
Compost • $4 • Action - Season
Trash a card from your hand.

In Spring, you may also trash a Copper from your hand.
In Summer, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
In Autumn, gain a card that shares a type with it; if it costs more, trash this.
In Winter, gain a Victory card that costs less than it.

Power remodeler/trasher. Designed with a 4-turn season (16-turn year) in mind, starting with T1/2 being in winter, T3 starting spring.
the autumn one might be a little too bananas. idk.
Tried to color-match one of segura's old season cards, which iirc used asper's original colors.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2021, 11:31:50 pm by spineflu »
Logged

herw

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 196
  • Respect: +77
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2021, 01:14:28 am »
0

[...]Designed with a 4-turn season (16-turn year) in mind, starting with T1/2 being in winter, T3 starting spring.
the autumn one might be a little too bananas. idk.
Tried to color-match one of segura's old season cards, which iirc used asper's original colors.
I like the idea of starting two turns before spring. Since there are no action cards in hand in the first two turns, you automatically start with spring in the third turn.
Still, I think the original rule of considering five turns for each season is better, since there could be cards that advance or reset the season counter. Then three turns are too few.
Aspers Karten: Jahreszeiten
« Last Edit: July 04, 2021, 01:20:48 am by herw »
Logged

emtzalex

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 670
  • Respect: +1179
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2021, 01:47:48 am »
+3

My Submission:


Quote from: Werebear
WEREBEAR  $5
ACTION - RESERVE - SEASON
+4 Cards
In Fall and Winter, put this on your Tavern mat.

At the start of your turn, in Spring, Summer, or Fall you may call this for +1 Card in Spring or +2 Cards in Summer.
                                                                                               

A take on Werewolf, it does not do anything different at Night, but instead hibernates during Winter.
Logged
he/him/his

Thanks to Shard of Honor for his Extended Version of the Dominion Card Image Generator, which I use to mock up my fan cards, and to Violet CLM, who made the original.

The Alchemist

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 175
  • Respect: +211
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2021, 09:29:00 pm »
+1



Tried to color-match one of segura's old season cards, which iirc used asper's original colors.

I don't think Seasons need/should have a new border color. Those are all reserved for cards that play outside of the normal times. Reactions play on your opponents turns, Reserve calls happen after a trigger, Night is a brand new phase, Duration on future turns, etc.
Seasons are not a new phase or timing, just a new type, so the same colors should be fine. Looters, castles, knights, etc. all add rules to the game but don't affect timing, and so have a new type but not new color, thus seasons likewise should do the same.
Logged

Xen3k

  • Duke
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 357
  • Respect: +458
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2021, 09:52:07 pm »
+1



Quote
Granary - $4
Victory - Season
1VP
-
When you gain this, if it is...

Spring, trash 3 cards you have in play.
Summer, gain a non-Victory card costing up to $5.
Fall or Winter, +1VP, +1 Coffers.

A victory card that has a variable on-buy effect. Encourages early purchases of what amounts to an Estate. Late game it is pretty much a $3 cost 2VP card, but with trash for benefit cards it could be a good purchase.
Logged

NoMoreFun

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1875
  • Respect: +1806
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2021, 10:01:48 pm »
+2

I like 20 turns. It means if you open with a card for its Spring effect, you will get to play it in Spring. Then the turns roughly line up with opening, building, greening and "endgame".

It does make Winter rare, but that is an interesting design space - you could make Winter effects extremely strong (e.g. "Gain a Provonce") with the risk you'll never get to play them. I think it adds to the general strategy of endgame control.

16 turns could also work, but Spring effects should be on gain or have some other way of preventing missing out on the Spring effect due to shuffle luck alone.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2021, 10:04:39 pm by NoMoreFun »
Logged

X-tra

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 414
  • Text under avatar
  • Respect: +934
    • View Profile
    • a
Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2021, 12:24:45 am »
+1

I haven't posted a card in the fan mechanic contests in a while! But that Season idea is very appealing, so I'll take a crack at it. My card is tied with this version of Seasons:



The table show what Season it is for each turn. An average game of Dominion thus ends on the last day of Winter, which is kind of neat. Turn 3, when you have your first deck shuffle and actual cards in it you can use, marks the first day of Spring, to make better use of that Season.

With that being said, here is my card:

Logged
Bottom text

The Alchemist

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 175
  • Respect: +211
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2021, 12:30:10 am »
+1

Btw, I too am going with a version of the 12-turn season that X-tra proposed, one starting in middle of Winter instead of start of Spring, for the same reasons he laid out. I think it solves the different seasons on t3/t4 thing much more naturally than a 16 or 20 turn season, and its nice thematically to start in "January". Here is my art for the tracker:

« Last Edit: July 09, 2021, 01:02:19 pm by The Alchemist »
Logged

The Alchemist

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 175
  • Respect: +211
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2021, 05:21:05 am »
0


Sift, trash, gain, draw. That's ALWAYS useful.


It's always useful *when you want it*.
When do you not want to sift, gain or draw? I literally always want to!
You can be too thin but that is unlikely to be the case in Summer.
So the first version of this card is always useful and notions like consistency, lack of control or whatever are of minor relevance.

I think you misunderstood. I never said there would be times where you wouldn't want those effects, I said there would be many times you *would* want a particular effect from tempest but can't get it cause its not the right season. Its worse than "x" because its not "x" every time you want "x". Put a different way, how much would a card that said "+1 Card, +1 Action, If its turn 6, 7, or 8, trash a card from your hand" be worth? If you said $4.5, you're dead wrong. That's barely worth more than a straight cantrip, $2.5 or $3 at most. Likewise for each of the other effects. A card that was "+1 Card, +3 Actions, +1 Buy, but only if its turns 12, 13, or 14" would similarly be so much worse than Worker's village. Putting all 4 barely-more-than-cantrip effects together just gets you back to $4.
Logged

The Alchemist

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 175
  • Respect: +211
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2021, 02:17:38 am »
0

I totally disagree. Cantrip trashers like Junk Dealer and Upgrade are very much used in the midgame and are certainly worth far more than cantrips. You are right that you prefer them immediately in the opening but that doesnít make midgame trashing worthless. Same with a Double Lab, that is always powerful.

The notion that you gotta somehow average these powerful effects as you donít get them during the entire part of the game and that this makes the card basically a Harbinger, a cantrip with a minor bonus, is simply wrong as you get a strong effect in all Seasons.

For how much would you buy a trasher that said "This only trashes in a 3-turn window this game"? That is clearly no where near as strong as a $4.5. And after playtesting a bit and talking to other people about the season mechanic, I am absolutely certain that a season card's effects each individually need to be stronger than the price as a whole. Four $4 effects on a season card is absolutely not worth more than $4. You can't use old logic in a new situation and automatically expect it to apply.
Logged

mathdude

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 214
  • Respect: +226
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2021, 07:59:43 am »
0


Sift, trash, gain, draw. That's ALWAYS useful.


It's always useful *when you want it*.
When do you not want to sift, gain or draw? I literally always want to!
You can be too thin but that is unlikely to be the case in Summer.
So the first version of this card is always useful and notions like consistency, lack of control or whatever are of minor relevance.

I think you misunderstood. I never said there would be times where you wouldn't want those effects, I said there would be many times you *would* want a particular effect from tempest but can't get it cause its not the right season. Its worse than "x" because its not "x" every time you want "x". Put a different way, how much would a card that said "+1 Card, +1 Action, If its turn 6, 7, or 8, trash a card from your hand" be worth? If you said $4.5, you're dead wrong. That's barely worth more than a straight cantrip, $2.5 or $3 at most. Likewise for each of the other effects. A card that was "+1 Card, +3 Actions, +1 Buy, but only if its turns 12, 13, or 14" would similarly be so much worse than Worker's village. Putting all 4 barely-more-than-cantrip effects together just gets you back to $4.

It totally depends what the "little bit extras" thinks are. If they are things you may not want when you can use them, then the full card costs less than any individual card would. If the extra effects are designed to land in the game exactly when it's best to use them, then it should cost more than the individual cards would.
Logged
he/him

The Alchemist

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 175
  • Respect: +211
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2021, 09:52:46 am »
0

Now if the effects are not or not always useful in that very season the card is naturally weaker.
Your second version looks decent, you get strong effects in Spring and Summer but not for long. Especially the Winter effect is weak (either you want villages and have some in your deck already, so the marginal benefit of extra villages is small, or you donít want villages anyway and the card is basically just a Market Square) and should compensate for the strength of the card early on.

I already made this very point in a previous post: Workers Village is an engine piece so having this on a Season card is weak due to matching issues. Not so with single card engine pieces like Fugitive or cantrip trasher that do not have to be matched with anything (thatís why non-terminal draw is so powerful).

Ah see, that's exactly my point! Normally a worker's village effect with an extra action would easily be $4.5 or $5, but because its on a card that doesn't give that effect reliably, you can't expect it to be nearly as strong since it has marginal benefit in an engine that otherwise had to be built without it. Likewise you can't rely on the peddler payload, and you can't rely on continued thinning. It would be much preferable to get a single Fugitive, trasher, peddler, and worker's village than it would be to get 4 Tempests, and for that reason alone, Tempest should be cheaper than any one of those 4.

Also its a good thing to mention here, that the classic cantrip trasher for $4.5 thing is calculated for optional trash. Using Hideout as a baseline for mandatory trash, it's closer to $4. So really the only effect that is potentially too strong on this card is the Fugitive one, but hey that's printed on a $4, so I think overall the card is not as overpowered as you think (If you still think it is, I admit the version with the cantrip workshop *was* overpowered, just not for the reason you stated).
Logged

fika monster

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 317
  • Respect: +303
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2021, 12:33:31 pm »
0

Going with the original 20 turn year.



Thematically the idea is that the loot diminishes over time with all the Pirates plundering it.
Obviously a controversial card with non-terminal Coffer yield and potentially too strong. You can get the sweet Spring bonus only once but then this is still a powerhouse in Summer. In Fall it is a lousy Ducat and in Winter it does nothing.
One obvious way to nerf it would be to use a 16 turn year.

Since you can usually only draw cards you bought on turn 3 and forward, that essentially gives you a normal time window of 1 turn to get the spring bonus of 3 coffers. May be something to be aware of for highrolls
Logged

fika monster

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 317
  • Respect: +303
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2021, 12:58:32 pm »
+1

Slightly breaking the rules: in my version, the first 12 Turns is "the first year". then, turn 13-24 is year two, and so on...

With that said....
[img width250]https://i.imgur.com/e8Jf7DQ.png[/img]
Husbandry! For most of the game its a simple +2 Cards. Quite bad for 3$! But, when 12 turns has passed....

Bam! If you played it enough times, you can gain provinces with it, while still drawing 2 cards!

EDIT: The card was horribly broken: im changing it to this version.

« Last Edit: July 06, 2021, 02:02:03 pm by fika monster »
Logged

grrgrrgrr

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 277
  • Respect: +361
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2021, 02:07:48 pm »
+3




EDIT: This (also) uses X-tra's 12-turn version of the season mechanic.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2021, 12:52:01 pm by grrgrrgrr »
Logged

X-tra

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 414
  • Text under avatar
  • Respect: +934
    • View Profile
    • a
Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2021, 03:37:09 pm »
+1

Going with the original 20 turn year.



Since you can usually only draw cards you bought on turn 3 and forward, that essentially gives you a normal time window of 1 turn to get the spring bonus of 3 coffers. May be something to be aware of for highrolls

?

They said their version of Seasons had 20 days/turns in total; 5 for each Season. Spring thus last 5 turns. Substract the first 2 turns, and you've got T3, T4 and T5 for Spring, which is exactly the turns that occur between your first and second shuffle. In normal circumstances, you are obligated to see Pirate Treasure in your hand in Spring, ready to be used for 3 Coffers.
Logged
Bottom text

Gubump

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1394
  • Respect: +1329
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 14: 'Tis the Season
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2021, 04:13:45 pm »
0

Also its a good thing to mention here, that the classic cantrip trasher for $4.5 thing is calculated for optional trash.
I don't follow you here as Ratcatcher is the only optional cantrip trasher. My reasoning is simple: Junk Dealer and Upgrade are the benchmark and show that a pure cantrip trasher has to be cheaper than $4.

Quote
Using Hideout as a baseline for mandatory trash, it's closer to $4.
Hideout is really a tricky beast as it does more and less than a cantrip trasher. I think that a cantrip trasher is stronger than Hideout; thrice not really trashing hurts a lot. Of course Hideout is the more interesting card, especially in Kingdoms without other villages (in which you thus somehow welcome the slow trashing).
As Hideout is tricky to evaluate I admit that it is absolutely not clear that a pure cantrip trasher would be OK at $4. I don't think so but could be totally wrong.

I'm having a hard time deciding whether Rats would be stronger or weaker without the self-gaining (I'm thinking stronger, the self-gain makes it so you're just replacing junk with other junk if it's the only trasher). But I don't think a Cantrip Trasher could exist at any price, for the following reason: If Rats minus the self-gain would be weaker, then Cantrip Trasher would be strictly worse than Rats and thus too weak for , but I think it'd be too good for . If it would be stronger, it would be too strong for , but strictly worse than Junk Dealer.

Then again, JD lets you trash Coppers without losing anything, which is quite a massive step up from Cantrip Trashing. So maybe it's fine at .
« Last Edit: July 06, 2021, 04:20:21 pm by Gubump »
Logged
All of my fan card mockups are credited to Shard of Honor and his Dominion Card Image Generator (the new fork).
If you're having font issues with the generator, click this link and click on the button to request temporary access to the demo server that loads the font.
Pages: [1] 2 3  All
 

Page created in 0.099 seconds with 20 queries.