Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 3 [4]  All

Author Topic: Weekly Design Contest 120: The Turn After Next  (Read 11998 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

spineflu

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1365
  • Shuffle iT Username: spineflu
  • Head Empty, Heart Worms, Can't Lose
  • Respect: +1349
    • View Profile
    • my instagram, where i paint things
Re: Weekly Design Contest 120: The Turn After Next
« Reply #75 on: July 08, 2021, 04:09:25 pm »
+2

awesome, good, glad that is cleared up, and sorry it took so many posts to do.

edit: for those who missed it on the last page:
24 Hours Remain, get those cards/revisions in

Cards I have on the spreadsheet:
Pack Mule (mandioca15)
Craftsman (4est)
Mine Digger (majiponi)
Brewery (X-tra)
Refinery (AJL828)
Confessional (Xen3k)
Royal Barge (emtzalex)
Summoning Circle (Unjer)
Rubbish Collector (mxdata)
Escort (ConMan)
Eastern Hireling (lompeluiten)
River Guide (Doom_Shark)
Exhibit (faust)
War Bond (grep)
Galley (JW)
Offer (Aquila)
Philosopher (NoMoreFun)
Bookkeeper (The Alchemist)
Acrobat (Freddy10)
Compost (MochaMoko)

If you aren't on that list, let me know.

judgement is going up at 2pm tomorrow.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2021, 04:45:27 pm by spineflu »
Logged

faust

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3376
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +5142
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest 120: The Turn After Next
« Reply #76 on: July 08, 2021, 05:14:08 pm »
0

Quote
Acrobat ($3)
Action - Duration

+1 Action
+1 Buy
-
At the end of your turn discard it unless you played an Acrobat this turn.
At the beginig of your turn, if this is in play: +1 Card
The instructions on this are kind of weird. Cards aren't normally discarded "at the end of your turn"; they are discarded during cleanup. Being a duration, it would check during cleanup whether it has anything to do on the next turn, and if it's discarded it won't have anything to do, so there's an argument to be made that this would be discarded during cleanup any time. So "Do not discard this during cleanup if you played an Acrobat this turn" would be clearer.

It is still sort of weird with Command cards. The rule is Command cards stay out as long as the Durations they played would, so by that rule, if you played an Acrobat, the Command stays out. But since the Acrobat the Command card played isn't in play at the start of the next turn, the Command card won't actually do anything.
Logged
You say the ocean's rising, like I give a shit
You say the whole world's ending, honey it already did

Mahowrath

  • Spy
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 87
  • Respect: +192
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest 120: The Turn After Next
« Reply #77 on: July 08, 2021, 06:07:10 pm »
+1

Last minute entry:


Quote
Native Trail, $4: Action - Duration
+1 Action
Now, and at the start of your turns while you have any cards set aside with this:
Set aside the top card of your deck under this, or put all cards set aside with one of your Native Trails into your hand.

Pseudo-trasher/card drawer. Having multiple in play gives you more control over which cards you leave set aside.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2021, 06:27:06 pm by Mahowrath »
Logged

Freddy10

  • Thief
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 91
  • Respect: +151
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest 120: The Turn After Next
« Reply #78 on: July 08, 2021, 07:48:40 pm »
0

Quote
Acrobat ($3)
Action - Duration

+1 Action
+1 Buy
-
At the end of your turn discard it unless you played an Acrobat this turn.
At the beginig of your turn, if this is in play: +1 Card
The instructions on this are kind of weird. Cards aren't normally discarded "at the end of your turn"; they are discarded during cleanup. Being a duration, it would check during cleanup whether it has anything to do on the next turn, and if it's discarded it won't have anything to do, so there's an argument to be made that this would be discarded during cleanup any time. So "Do not discard this during cleanup if you played an Acrobat this turn" would be clearer.

It is still sort of weird with Command cards. The rule is Command cards stay out as long as the Durations they played would, so by that rule, if you played an Acrobat, the Command stays out. But since the Acrobat the Command card played isn't in play at the start of the next turn, the Command card won't actually do anything.

Would this work?
Quote
+1 Action
+1 Buy
At the start of your next turns, if you played an Acrobat on all your previous turns since you played this, +1 Card
Logged
Who trashes the trashers?

exfret

  • Thief
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 92
  • Respect: +112
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest 120: The Turn After Next
« Reply #79 on: July 09, 2021, 01:16:33 am »
+1



Trying to come up with something better, but this is what I've got. It's like a cheap wine merchant. You got some extra money leftover? Maybe help pay off that cash advance so you can get it into your deck again. It's sort of weaker than Stonks, so gotta make it cost 2, and also the fact that it has to stay out at least a turn doesn't help.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2021, 01:19:11 am by exfret »
Logged

exfret

  • Thief
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 92
  • Respect: +112
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest 120: The Turn After Next
« Reply #80 on: July 09, 2021, 08:53:00 am »
0

What is the purpose of the Debt cost? I don’t see why such a weak card should be ungainable except via buying.
Engineer is the only official cheap card with Debt cost and it has two very good reasons for it.

I thought that would have made it easier to get, not harder, hm... Does seem that way now that I think of it since +Buy is the major issue.
Logged

exfret

  • Thief
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 92
  • Respect: +112
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest 120: The Turn After Next
« Reply #81 on: July 09, 2021, 09:07:04 am »
0

What is the purpose of the Debt cost? I don’t see why such a weak card should be ungainable except via buying.
Engineer is the only official cheap card with Debt cost and it has two very good reasons for it.

I thought that would have made it easier to get, not harder, hm... Does seem that way now that I think of it since +Buy is the major issue.

Also, is it really that weak? It's only 1 coin and 1 buy less than winekeeper and has to stay out for a turn, but other than that is nonterminal, costs 3 less, and you can pay it off not all at once.
Logged

mathdude

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 216
  • Respect: +230
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest 120: The Turn After Next
« Reply #82 on: July 09, 2021, 11:23:09 am »
+2



Quote from: Dark Caverns
$6 Night-Duration
Set aside up to 3 non-Duration cards you have in play, face down (under this). While any remain, at the start of each of your turns, put one of them into your hand.

This is the more powerful cousin of Crypt.  This lets you set aside Action cards (and possibly even Night cards).  To limit the craziness that could happen, I've limited it to 3 cards, though I'm not sure if that's the right number (or if it's even needed).
Logged
he/him

spineflu

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1365
  • Shuffle iT Username: spineflu
  • Head Empty, Heart Worms, Can't Lose
  • Respect: +1349
    • View Profile
    • my instagram, where i paint things
Re: Weekly Design Contest 120: The Turn After Next
« Reply #83 on: July 09, 2021, 02:09:14 pm »
+5

Contest 120 Judgment
Quote from: mandioca15

Pack Mule • $5 • Action - Duration
While this is in play, at the start of your turn, +1 Card.
-
At the start of Cleanup for your turns, you may pay $1 or discard an Action card from your hand. If you did not, discard this from play.

This is an interesting twist on hireling. I think you could afford to lose the "pay $1" and drop the cost to $4; still, with the $1 upkeep cost and the $5 buy cost, it's pretty balanced. It does feel pretty bad on that initial play having to pay the upkeep without getting a benefit, though. I wonder if this would get more play than hireling or if the opportunity cost is still too high being terminal.


Quote from: 4est

Craftsman • $6 • Action - Duration
Gain 3 differently named cards costing less than this and set them aside face down (you may look at them).
At the start of your next three turns, put one into your hand.

This could probably afford to either nix Victory cards - "Gain 3 differently named non-Victory cards costing less than...." - or cost $8. Like, "here's three duchies" should probably have prince-esque opportunity cost. It might also be ok at $5, although i think it'd play very different in $4 alt-VP games.

That said, with one of those changes, this card should exist.



Quote from: majiponi

Mine Digger • $4 • Action - Duration
Gain a Copper to your hand.
At the start of your next turn, gain a Silver to your hand.
At the start of your next turn after that, gain a Gold to your hand.

This might be among the best Big Money enablers I've ever had to judge. This has some great combos with landmarks specifically - Palace, Keep, and Fountain love it.

The gain to hand and the fact that it stays out of your deck for three turns really helps out big money in a way that seems unfairly good at $2 pretty balanced at $4.
Finalist



Quote from: X-tra

Brewery • $5 • Action - Duration
+$1
At the start of your next turn, choose one: +$3, or replay this.
I think this will play very differently in village-heavy games than in non-village games - you'll want to cycle it a lot more. That said, even just keeping it in play as a non-swipeable "the key" is pretty good.
Hella points from elegance on this though. Short, sweet, to the point. Great job.
Finalist



Quote from: AJL828

Refinery • $6 • Night - Duration
At the start of each of your Night phases that this remains in play, you may trash a card from your hand to gain a card costing up to $1 per different card type (Action, Attack, etc.) you have in play. If you don't, discard this from play.

This is a pretty elegant way to make a gainer whose qualifications start at gain a card costing up to $2 + $1 per type you have in play.

I think it'll really shine in games where there's Weird Types in play - a knight, or prize, or gatherer, or spirit.

I like it at $6 so it misses the openings, although I do think mathdude is correct that it could cost $5. It's probably going to be critical in clearing out coppers, and hitting $6 before like, turn five, is more spiky than hitting $5.

I don't know if you'd ever want more than one of these. Maybe in rushes.
Finalist



Quote from: Xen3k

Confessional • $4 • Action - Duration
Now and at the start of your next 2 turns, you may trash a card from your hand. If you trash an...
Action card, +2 Cards, +1 Villager.
Treasure card, +1 Buy, +1 Coffers.
Victory card, +1VP, gain a Horse.

I'm not sure why this is a Night card. it's got an antisynergy with itself, which, compare/contrast with Sacrifice when you have to use that as the only source of villages. It also makes you lose out on a thing from trashing anything but victory cards that first turn.

That said, this seems good. Probably want to open with it, get it in play asap to help clear out stuff, maybe do two if it's the only trasher. I think the Action version of this card would be even better, but at least this way you can't draw it dead.



Quote from: emtzalex

Royal Barge • $5 • Action - Duration
Set aside any number of Action cards from your hand, face down (under this). While any remain, at the start of each of your turns, play one of them twice.
This, with copies of itself, has some Shenanigans Potential. I think to minimize the confusion, it should probably only work with non-Durations; that said, this is probably also the way to do the hypothetical duration throne that was cut from Seaside.

This is great though, I've got a headache trying to track it already.



Quote from: Unjer

Summoning Circle • $2 • Action - Duration
At the start of your next 2 turns, set aside a card from your hand (on this). At the start of your next turn after that, trash them and this, and gain a Curse and a card costing up to $6.

This looks good; kinda slow, maybe, but in the same role as Embargo where you've got $2 and a buy left and you're like, alright, throw in an Embargo.
The curses provide more grist for summoning, which is a neat little self-synergy. and $6 gainers are rare enough. I like it.



Quote from: mxdata

Rubbish Collector • $4 • Action - Duration
While this is in play, at the start of each of your turns you may trash a card from your hand. Discard this from play at the end of your turn if you did not trash anything with this
I think you hit the nail on the head with the Chapel comparison, which means I have to ask: why isn't this a $2 cost so it's totally affordable regardless of opening? Is it just because it compares favorably to Cathedral?

I think I'd make a change, which is this trashes itself - you should have to spend the opportunity cost of a buy on a second one if you pulled the plug early - as is, getting to "turn it back on" feels unearned.



Quote from: ConMan

Escort • $4 • Action - Duration
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand. Put a coin token on here for each $ it cost.
At the start of your turn, if there are any coin tokens on here you may remove one to discard your hand and draw 5 cards.
(This stays in play as long as there are coin tokens on it.)

Feel like this could reasonably cost $3 or even $2. I'm not sure what double opening these would get me that a single open wouldn't - one fewer estate, maybe. I get that you're trying to have it priced in comparison to Guide but honestly how many times do you call Guide in a game? maybe twice? three or four times if there's handsize attacks?

I mean, it's a fine way to do mulligans, but it's also not very exciting.
Minor nitpick not taken into account with judging: you should probably phrase it "+5 Cards" rather than "draw 5 cards"



Quote from: lompeluiten

Eastern Hireling • $5 • Action - Duration
+1 Card
+1 Action
If this is in play at the start of your turn, +1 Card.
-
Any player may pay $2 on their turn to discard this from play.

This is an interesting twist on hireling. I'd be very interested to see how it played, but I suspect in multiplayer games this ends up in politicsland - only one player has to spend extra money to discard someone else's card, which puts it into some kingmaker territory where there's competing opportunity costs - the player that causes it to discard loses the ability to spend that $2 on improving their own deck.

Still, in more casual games, or in 2p, this looks fun.

JW also brings up a good point about the timing on the purchase mattering. That can be fixed in a revision though.



Quote from: Doom_Shark

River Guide • $5 • Action - Duration
Now and at the start of your next two turns, choose one:
+1 Card, +1 Action; +$3; trash a card from your hand.
I think this is way too crazy good. It needs some restriction on it, either to make you do a different thing, or the same thing each time. Otherwise it's a nonterminal hireling* at $5.

*yeah you have to keep playing it so there'll be draw-opportunity lost, but still, way too good.

Or, like faust points out: it's a gold for three turns at the same price as merchant ship's silver-for-two-turns.
It can probably drop the +$3 option too.



Quote from: faust

Exhibit • $2 • Night - Duration
Set aside a non-Duration card you have in play under each Exhibit you have in play.
While any cards remain set aside under this, at the start of your Buy phase, discard one of them for +$2.

I do think it is novel that you can "refuel" the exhibits while they're still in play. That took me a couple times reading to click how that'd work. I think that's an interesting self synergy that makes this card not just crypt for silvers only with an initial opportunity cost.

I feel like you'd always want to double open this and pray for minimal initial collision. It's some real good pseudotrashing / turning opening decks into silvers.

I also feel like this'd get misplayed in non-app/paper settings very consistently. It's got some real subtlety to it.

Finalist



Quote from: grep

War Bond • $4 • Action - Duration
+1 Action
Put 1 Coffer onto this for each Action card in play (including this). At the start of your subsequent turns, take a Coffer from this. If none left, discard this.

I think I had a similar card way back in... 2018? it did trashing for coffers, cost-into-coffers style, with a 1 coffer/turn drip, and was very good. I think this would almost always see play and nearly always empty - you get your deck up and running, and with spare $4+buy or gainers, grab these to throw down for payload. I don't think it needs the +Action on it to be an extremely viable engine component, and I think it's potentially busted with how good it is at a non-terminal $4. It's probably an easy/reasonable nerf to make this only care about uniquely named actions.



Quote from: JW

Galley • $6 • Action - Duration
What if hireling but for deck cleanup? Or, what if cathedral but green-friendly?
Like I said with Refinery, $6 is an awkward price for cards you 100% want in ... basically everything but a Donate game, really. I think having this at $8 would be a more viable price point - makes the choice 'do i go for points, or do I go for deck improvement?'.



Quote from: Aquila

Offer • $4 • Action - Duration
Set aside a card from your hand or the Supply (under this). When a player gains a card, the leftmost other player with a copy of it under one of their Offers returns that copy to its pile for +2 Cards and +1%.

I feel like Invest does this better, with fewer sui generis cases ("the leftmost other player"), albeit at the cost of doing it in the open rather than blindly. I don't think the opportunity cost of a) getting a card an opponent needs to b) return it to the supply is really worth 2 cards and a vp, though, and having it worth more than that (in deck component terms) would be swingy; maybe just +3vp? Does seem like a fun minigame though.



Quote from: NoMoreFun

Philosopher • $5 • Action - Duration
+$2
You may put your deck in your discard pile.
While this remains in play, +$2 at the start of your turns.
---
When you shuffle your deck, discard this from play

This has some "strictly better" issues compared to Merchant Ship, while also being more flexible than Merchant Ship. There was also no revisions for the loop Aquila pointed out, convoluted though it may be.

Also with the discard clause below the line, you may have some loops with ways, particularly cases like w.o.t. Horse and w.o.t. Pig, that are nonconvoluted, especially since the (appropriately philosophical) ruling that you can shuffle one card - you draw deck, play Philosopher as wot Pig, have no cards in your deck, so you shuffle your discard (even if it's empty), which causes Philosopher to discard, but now your deck is still empty, which causes another shuffle, which puts Philosopher back in your deck, then your hand. (thank you for making me re-read the shuffle rules :/ )
You could fix this by doing a set aside and discard at clean-up thing.

I like the concept, but it needs some revisions.



Quote from: The Alchemist

Bookkeeper • $5 • Action - Duration
+3 Coffers
Gain a card costing up to $4.
Take @4. At the start of your next turn, if you have any @, replay this.

Three coffers is too much. Like even on a card that'll net you debt, 3 coffers is a ton. 3 coffers is $7 terminal action territory, not "keep gaining them next turn and also a $4 card, for $5" territory. If you're giving debt anyway, this should probably have a debt price so it doesn't self-gain with literally any cost reduction.



Quote from: Freddy10

Acrobat • $3 • Action - Duration
+1 Action
+1 Buy
-
At the end of your turn, discard it unless you played an Acrobat this turn.
At the beginning of your turn, if this is in play:
+1 Card.
This is a really neat, clean design. Has kind of a Stockpile quality build to it. Its on-play is kind of meh - I'm interested to see the game where this is the only buy and you have to turn off your drawing power to get those +buys - but this is really quite novel.

Finalist




Quote from: MochaMoko

Compost • $3 • Action - Duration
+1 Action
At the start of each of your turns, if this has set aside 3 or more cards, trash this and them, and gain a card to your hand costing up to $6.

Until you trash this, when you gain a card, you may set it aside face up (on this).

This has some issues for two reasons.
First, you have the "using with a command card" issue - a quick fix would be to give this the command type (which, I'm sure others will balk at, given that it isn't playing anything); a more thorough one would be to include a "while this is in play" clause in the (already pretty wordy) top paragraph, or change the "until you trash this" to "while this is in play".

The second issue is the setting aside is optional. This leads to some wild power creep like essentially automatically exiling green you buy. That's a bit too busted at non-terminal $3, imo. There's a fix for this, though: make it no longer optional to set aside your gains on this. You want to gain cards, you've gotta get rid of your compost first.

I'm less concerned about the "this blocks junkers" part than others in the thread - so does lighthouse or guardian or champion. It's not that hard to adjust your play style away from an attack when someone goes hard on defense.

You mention that the card has been buffed several times over the course of its conception. That was maybe not the best impulse. I'd consider it a lot more favorably if it were terminal (and had the above fixes).



Quote from: mathdude

Dark Caverns • $6 • Night - Duration
Set aside up to 3 non-Duration cards you have in play, face down (under this). While any remain, at the start of each of your turns, put one of them into your hand.
I feel like in a world where crypt and scheme exist, this shouldn't, mostly due to issues of "better" even if it's not strictly better. This is really good, even at $6, and having a couple of them to juggle That One Card that makes your deck pop off so it pops off every turn is extremely good. I think having it at $3 and one card would be more reasonable.



Quote from: Mahowrath

Native Trail • $4 • Action - Duration
+1 Action
Now, and at the start of your turns while you have any cards set aside with this:
Set aside the top card of your deck under this, or put all cards set aside with one of your Native Trails into your hand.
This is a really interesting take on Native Village, or, kinda, Lookout. I feel like this is a card design I'd think was really good and go in on hard but it'd end up screwing me over, kinda like Research. If it's as good as I'm imagining it is, I don't think it needs the +Action.

It's not really clear if you can look at the set-aside cards or not. I'd guess yes? just based on other cards that set aside cards. I imagine it'd matter for having multiples in play.



Quote from: exfret

Cash Advance • @2 • Treasure - Duration
$3
Put @2 on this. At the start of each of your buy phases, if there is any @ on this, you may take any amount of @ from here.

First up, props for designing a Treasure - Duration. I sort of expected more of them and was surprised to only get one.

Second, why would I want to take the debt on this ever? I get to "get it back into your deck" but why wouldn't I just pick them up to spike some power card and then leave them in play and never pay them off (because it's not my debt yet).

Also, you generally want the debt cost of a thing to be higher than the reward from it. Like, if this gave a cumulative 4 debt later for $3 now? that's sort of how debt actually works in real life and makes for a more interesting use of the mechanic.

Also, as segura suggested, the @2 cost is weird and pretty bad. I get what you were going for with this, but this is too much free stuff - maybe make the debt trickle in, 1 per turn, until it's empty?



My main judging criteria was "does this card need revisions?" and that gave me the five finalists, after which I compared the remaining cards in terms of novelty, utility, balance, and so on. Here's how they stacked up:

Placed:
• Acrobat by Freddy10
• Mine Digger by majiponi
• Refinery by AJL828

Runner Up:
• Brewery by X-tra

Winner:
Exhibit by faust

Congrats everyone, I know this was a frustrating contest and I hope we all learned a lot about why Bonfire needs to be reworded to include "non-Duration".
« Last Edit: July 09, 2021, 10:51:29 pm by spineflu »
Logged

faust

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3376
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +5142
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest 120: The Turn After Next
« Reply #84 on: July 09, 2021, 02:24:10 pm »
+1

Thanks for the judging and the win! I wasn't sure my entry wouldn't maybe be too weird.
Logged
You say the ocean's rising, like I give a shit
You say the whole world's ending, honey it already did

mxdata

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1190
  • Respect: +1335
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest 120: The Turn After Next
« Reply #85 on: July 09, 2021, 08:55:38 pm »
+1

Quote from: mxdata

Rubbish Collector • $4 • Action - Duration
While this is in play, at the start of each of your turns you may trash a card from your hand. Discard this from play at the end of your turn if you did not trash anything with this
I think you hit the nail on the head with the Chapel comparison, which means I have to ask: why isn't this a $2 cost so it's totally affordable regardless of opening? Is it just because it compares favorably to Cathedral?

I think I'd make a change, which is this trashes itself - you should have to spend the opportunity cost of a buy on a second one if you pulled the plug early - as is, getting to "turn it back on" feels unearned.

I'd gone back and forth on that.  I had considered a version that had "If you did not, trash this" instead of discarding before going with this one. You're probably right that I should've gone with that version
Logged
They/them

Aquila

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 525
  • Respect: +764
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest 120: The Turn After Next
« Reply #86 on: July 10, 2021, 04:47:06 am »
+1

Quote from: 4est

Craftsman • $6 • Action - Duration
Gain 3 differently named cards costing less than this and set them aside face down (you may look at them).
At the start of your next three turns, put one into your hand.

This could probably afford to either nix Victory cards - "Gain 3 differently named non-Victory cards costing less than...." - or cost $8. Like, "here's three duchies" should probably have prince-esque opportunity cost. It might also be ok at $5, although i think it'd play very different in $4 alt-VP games.

That said, with one of those changes, this card should exist.
This can't actually gain 3 Duchies - rather 3 different cards - so was that meant to be a rough guide to its power level?

Quote from: Aquila

Offer • $4 • Action - Duration
Set aside a card from your hand or the Supply (under this). When a player gains a card, the leftmost other player with a copy of it under one of their Offers returns that copy to its pile for +2 Cards and +1%.

I feel like Invest does this better, with fewer sui generis cases ("the leftmost other player"), albeit at the cost of doing it in the open rather than blindly. I don't think the opportunity cost of a) getting a card an opponent needs to b) return it to the supply is really worth 2 cards and a vp, though, and having it worth more than that (in deck component terms) would be swingy; maybe just +3vp? Does seem like a fun minigame though.
My bad I guess for not putting an update in a new post, but I edited Offer to:


No setting aside Victories, and the reward VP bumped up to 2.
Also, it doesn't appear that you acknowledged this can set a card aside from the Supply? The opportunity cost then is guessing incorrectly so that this misses turns and reward potential.
I'd be interested in your thoughts on this. Invest is a fair comparison of course, and maybe the +Cards could change to differentiate from it.
Logged

Holger

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 736
  • Respect: +458
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest 120: The Turn After Next
« Reply #87 on: July 10, 2021, 09:41:01 am »
0


Quote from: MochaMoko

Compost • $3 • Action - Duration
+1 Action
At the start of each of your turns, if this has set aside 3 or more cards, trash this and them, and gain a card to your hand costing up to $6.

Until you trash this, when you gain a card, you may set it aside face up (on this).

This has some issues for two reasons.
First, you have the "using with a command card" issue - a quick fix would be to give this the command type (which, I'm sure others will balk at, given that it isn't playing anything); a more thorough one would be to include a "while this is in play" clause in the (already pretty wordy) top paragraph, or change the "until you trash this" to "while this is in play".

The second issue is the setting aside is optional. This leads to some wild power creep like essentially automatically exiling green you buy. That's a bit too busted at non-terminal $3, imo. There's a fix for this, though: make it no longer optional to set aside your gains on this. You want to gain cards, you've gotta get rid of your Compost first.

The setting aside is optional, but the trashing isn't. So you can only permanently set aside two VP cards before this stops doing anything. I dont see this as overpowered when compared to Island, which also sets aside two VP cards permanently.

Quote

I'm less concerned about the "this blocks junkers" part than others in the thread - so does lighthouse or guardian or champion. It's not that hard to adjust your play style away from an attack when someone goes hard on defense.
But unlike Lighthouse or Guardian (or Moat), this protects you permanently from being junked after playing a single copy (unless the Compost pile is depleted before the Curse pile, you can just gain and play a new Compost for free whenever you trash the "full" old one). And it is much faster to get into play than a Champion, as you can always open with it.
Logged

spineflu

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1365
  • Shuffle iT Username: spineflu
  • Head Empty, Heart Worms, Can't Lose
  • Respect: +1349
    • View Profile
    • my instagram, where i paint things
Re: Weekly Design Contest 120: The Turn After Next
« Reply #88 on: July 10, 2021, 12:31:28 pm »
0

Quote from: 4est

Craftsman • $6 • Action - Duration
Gain 3 differently named cards costing less than this and set them aside face down (you may look at them).
At the start of your next three turns, put one into your hand.

This could probably afford to either nix Victory cards - "Gain 3 differently named non-Victory cards costing less than...." - or cost $8. Like, "here's three duchies" should probably have prince-esque opportunity cost. It might also be ok at $5, although i think it'd play very different in $4 alt-VP games.

That said, with one of those changes, this card should exist.
This can't actually gain 3 Duchies - rather 3 different cards - so was that meant to be a rough guide to its power level?

Quote from: Aquila

Offer • $4 • Action - Duration
Set aside a card from your hand or the Supply (under this). When a player gains a card, the leftmost other player with a copy of it under one of their Offers returns that copy to its pile for +2 Cards and +1%.

I feel like Invest does this better, with fewer sui generis cases ("the leftmost other player"), albeit at the cost of doing it in the open rather than blindly. I don't think the opportunity cost of a) getting a card an opponent needs to b) return it to the supply is really worth 2 cards and a vp, though, and having it worth more than that (in deck component terms) would be swingy; maybe just +3vp? Does seem like a fun minigame though.
My bad I guess for not putting an update in a new post, but I edited Offer to:


No setting aside Victories, and the reward VP bumped up to 2.
Also, it doesn't appear that you acknowledged this can set a card aside from the Supply? The opportunity cost then is guessing incorrectly so that this misses turns and reward potential.
I'd be interested in your thoughts on this. Invest is a fair comparison of course, and maybe the +Cards could change to differentiate from it.

i definitely misread on both. On Craftsman - missed the differently named, although three $5 cards is also still A Lot. On Offer, i feel like with Offer you'd want to always do that so the other player would get "zinged" by their choice (and you'd get Stuff) rather than plainly telegraphing your move (a la invest) solely to differentiate it from Invest. It's also weird in that ending the game with Offer, wouldn't that add the set aside card to your deck (due to how set asides work). Weird potential rushes in landmark games where that'd matter (T. arch, obelisk). again, sui generis cases.
but yeah, thats on me for not reading as carefully as i shouldve.


Quote from: MochaMoko

Compost • $3 • Action - Duration
+1 Action
At the start of each of your turns, if this has set aside 3 or more cards, trash this and them, and gain a card to your hand costing up to $6.

Until you trash this, when you gain a card, you may set it aside face up (on this).

This has some issues for two reasons.
First, you have the "using with a command card" issue - a quick fix would be to give this the command type (which, I'm sure others will balk at, given that it isn't playing anything); a more thorough one would be to include a "while this is in play" clause in the (already pretty wordy) top paragraph, or change the "until you trash this" to "while this is in play".

The second issue is the setting aside is optional. This leads to some wild power creep like essentially automatically exiling green you buy. That's a bit too busted at non-terminal $3, imo. There's a fix for this, though: make it no longer optional to set aside your gains on this. You want to gain cards, you've gotta get rid of your Compost first.

The setting aside is optional, but the trashing isn't. So you can only permanently set aside two VP cards before this stops doing anything. I dont see this as overpowered when compared to Island, which also sets aside two VP cards permanently.

Quote

I'm less concerned about the "this blocks junkers" part than others in the thread - so does lighthouse or guardian or champion. It's not that hard to adjust your play style away from an attack when someone goes hard on defense.
But unlike Lighthouse or Guardian (or Moat), this protects you permanently from being junked after playing a single copy (unless the Compost pile is depleted before the Curse pile, you can just gain and play a new Compost for free whenever you trash the "full" old one). And it is much faster to get into play than a Champion, as you can always open with it.

being able to queue up autoexiling for greenery - turns and turns ahead of time - at $3 (!!!) is way more powerful than having to collide two green cards to island them.

and re: antijunker regaining, guardian gives you half of its cost back the next turn, just buy another one. Its a bad use for this card and I don't think its gamebreaking, especially with the changes i suggested.
Logged

exfret

  • Thief
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 92
  • Respect: +112
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest 120: The Turn After Next
« Reply #89 on: July 11, 2021, 05:55:26 am »
0

After playing with summoning circle and seeing how well-designed it is, I'm starting to feel salty looking back on this and seeing it not even making finalist (and it's not even my card!). Part of me ponders what it would be like to have multiple people judge so that the results are more accurate.
Logged

spineflu

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1365
  • Shuffle iT Username: spineflu
  • Head Empty, Heart Worms, Can't Lose
  • Respect: +1349
    • View Profile
    • my instagram, where i paint things
Re: Weekly Design Contest 120: The Turn After Next
« Reply #90 on: July 11, 2021, 10:26:54 am »
+5

After playing with summoning circle and seeing how well-designed it is, I'm starting to feel salty looking back on this and seeing it not even making finalist (and it's not even my card!). Part of me ponders what it would be like to have multiple people judge so that the results are more accurate.

the results are supposed to reflect what the judge values about dominion, and as a result, are accurate. The diversity in opinions is supposed to help us all grow as designers, both with the prompts and with the results - there were several cards that I thought should be actual cards this week, and not all of them made the finals list, summoning circle among them, philosopher among them. Only one of them made me keep thinking about the card when I walked away from the computer, and that was exhibit.

At the end of the day, it comes down to the whim of the judge - even if you playtest them and do like a tournament ranking, how/when you use them will influence your opinion. I full encourage you to use your own stats-based judgment methodology when you win - stats have little to do with what I like in dominion.

Having a more stats driven contest might be interesting, but its fully something I'd be uninterested in - games are supposed to be fun; feeling a deck go brr, or feeling a deck flop under the weight of hubris, or figuring out an unintuitive strategy? those are fun. One shot gainer-thinner with a drawback that takes a couple turns to proc? I'm feeling that less than some of the other entries. It's sort of one-note. Yeah it has a nice self-synergy (where one sets up the next).

Having a multijudge contest just means that new people's voices won't get heard over more established voices. Honestly the most thrilling this contest is is when a new poster with a single digit post count, who has never won before, comes up with something bonkers as a prompt and vanishes so there's no clarifying questions all week. Like, yeah stuff will get DQ'd on technicalities, but its wild to see how different enclaves of dominion fans think about the game than those of us in the discord or f.ds, and celebrating that is really what the contest is about.

tldr: the results were as accurate as they could've been, because the person who was the judge for that contest did them.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2021, 07:59:34 pm by spineflu »
Logged

exfret

  • Thief
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 92
  • Respect: +112
    • View Profile
Re: Weekly Design Contest 120: The Turn After Next
« Reply #91 on: July 12, 2021, 01:32:38 am »
+1

After playing with summoning circle and seeing how well-designed it is, I'm starting to feel salty looking back on this and seeing it not even making finalist (and it's not even my card!). Part of me ponders what it would be like to have multiple people judge so that the results are more accurate.

the results are supposed to reflect what the judge values about dominion, and as a result, are accurate. The diversity in opinions is supposed to help us all grow as designers, both with the prompts and with the results - there were several cards that I thought should be actual cards this week, and not all of them made the finals list, summoning circle among them, philosopher among them. Only one of them made me keep thinking about the card when I walked away from the computer, and that was exhibit.

At the end of the day, it comes down to the whim of the judge - even if you playtest them and do like a tournament ranking, how/when you use them will influence your opinion. I full encourage you to use your own stats-based judgment methodology when you win - stats have little to do with what I like in dominion.

Having a more stats driven contest might be interesting, but its fully something I'd be uninterested in - games are supposed to be fun; feeling a deck go brr, or feeling a deck flop under the weight of hubris, or figuring out an unintuitive strategy? those are fun. One shot gainer-thinner with a drawback that takes a couple turns to proc? I'm feeling that less than some of the other entries. It's sort of one-note. Yeah it has a nice self-synergy (where one sets up the next).

Having a multijudge contest just means that new people's voices won't get heard over more established voices. Honestly the most thrilling this contest is is when a new poster with a single digit post count, who has never won before, comes up with something bonkers as a prompt and vamishes so there's no clarifying questions all week. Like, yeah stuff will get DQ'd on technicalities, but its wild to see how different enclaves of dominion fans think about the game than those of us in the discord or f.ds, and celebrating that is really what the contest is about.

tldr: the results were as accurate as they could've been, because the person who was the judge for that contest did them.

Thanks for the thought-through response. I hope my comment didn't come off as an attack on you personally (and it seems like you didn't take it personally, thankfully), it's just really hard for me to understand a lot of people's judgements on fan cards in general and this has led to a lot of frustration.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4]  All
 

Page created in 0.243 seconds with 21 queries.