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Author Topic: Citadel errata?  (Read 1114 times)

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AJD

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Citadel errata?
« on: June 20, 2021, 03:42:43 am »
+1

On the wiki, someone wrote:

Quote
Citadel is getting errata to "The first time you play an Action card during each of your turns, play it twice instead," because the current wording isn't actually playing the card twice. In other words, the current Citadel is less like Throne Room and more like Royal Carriage, and it is getting errata to be the former.

Can someone explain the difference in meaning between the two wordings ("play it twice instead" vs. "play it again afterward")? How is acting like Throne Room different from acting like Royal Carriage?
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dz

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Re: Citadel errata?
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2021, 04:27:40 am »
+3

Oh hey that's an edit that I made. I guess I don't have enough street cred in the Dominion community to get recognized yet D:

I fully expected someone to ask at some point, why Citadel is the oddball that needs errata to work with the new rules about playing cards. So I'm surprised it took 4 days for that discussion to happen on the forums. So here's my attempt at an explanation; we'll see if it works for others.

Royal Carriage (and also Scepter) technically aren't Throne Rooms. Sure, they play cards, and they can stay out in play when they play Durations. Sounds a lot like Throne Room. But Necromancer and Overlord can do those things too, and I wouldn't call those Throne Rooms. And Citadel's wording is closer to Royal Carriage instead of Throne Room - it plays the card a second time afterwards, instead of saying "play a card twice."

(If you think this is weird, well, this is the game where "+1 Card" ≠ "draw 1 card" ≠ "put a card into your hand. Thanks, -1 Card token and Way of the Chameleon!)

Now why does this matter? Here's the relevant rules change:
"An effect that tries to play a card for the first time can only do so when the card is where the effect expects it to be. If it can play it the first time, subsequent plays will also work."

Royal Carriage and Scepter already require a card to stay in play in order to get replayed. This is why those 2 cards aren't affected by the errata. The errata is meant to deal with playing cards that have been lost, and RC/Scepter are already unable to replay lost cards.

In contrast, Citadel and Throne Room are able to replay lost cards (like Horse), and the rules change is keeping that alive. However, Citadel isn't worded like Throne Room! It's worded like Royal Carriage. But Royal Carriage isn't supposed to work with one-shots, so what do we do with Citadel?

So with the rules change, Citadel is now in a weird area. And the errata is making Citadel function like Throne Room instead of Royal Carriage.

You know, this situation reminds me Envoy. It used to say "draw the rest," which isn't rules-accurate. It just took the -1 Card token for it to matter.

Also Ingix is the person who wrote those new rules; if my explanation isn't sufficient, I'm sure they'll join the conversation. And feel free to rewrite my edit on the wiki; I wrote that without thinking too hard, and surely it can be more clearer.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2021, 04:30:40 am by dz »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Citadel errata?
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2021, 10:50:08 am »
+4

Post from Donald X for context: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19893.msg871558#msg871558

If I can try to briefly (and thus less technically accurate probably) sum up the above explanationů due to the new errata from Donald linked above; Citadel as worded would no longer function the same; it would not allow you to re-play a one-shot. Citadel's new wording makes it still work with one-shots like it always had.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2021, 08:12:49 pm by GendoIkari »
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AJD

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Re: Citadel errata?
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2021, 10:57:12 am »
0

Thanks!

(...Huh, I wonder how I missed that post from Donald X.; the Rules forum wasn't highlighted for me as having unread posts.)
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Donald X.

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Re: Citadel errata?
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2021, 12:29:58 pm »
0

Post from Donald X for context: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19893.msg871558#msg871558

If I can try to briefly (and this less technically accurate probably) sum up the above explanationů due to the new errata from Donald linked above; Citadel as worded would no longer function the same; it would not allow you to re-play a one-shot. Citadel's new wording makes it still work with one-shots like it always had.
Correct, that's the entire reason for the change.
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Jeebus

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Re: Citadel errata?
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2021, 09:38:09 am »
0

Only, Royal Carriage and Scepter are Throne Rooms in one way: They stay in play with the Duration cards they play. This includes all cards that replay cards.

Now we have a special Duration rule for Throne Rooms, including Royal Carriage and Scepter, and a special "play capability" rule for Throne Rooms, except Royal Carriage and Scepter.

It would probably have been better if the new rule was like the Duration rule:

"An effect that tries to play a card can only do so when the card is where the effect expects it to be. However, an effect that replays cards can still replay a card that was successfully played the first time."

Then there would be no need to errata Citadel either.

LastFootnote

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Re: Citadel errata?
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2021, 02:04:57 pm »
0

Well Royal Carriage and Scepter specifically only work on cards that are still in play. It's right there in their text.
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Jeebus

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Re: Citadel errata?
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2021, 06:03:13 am »
0

Well Royal Carriage and Scepter specifically only work on cards that are still in play. It's right there in their text.

You're right of course. I was focusing on Dz's comment that Royal Carriage and Scepter technically aren't Throne Rooms. That clause that you mentioned makes it irrelevant that the rule for "play capability" doesn't include Royal Carriage and Scepter, but it's still true. But I should have written that this rule doesn't include Royal Carriage, Scepter and existing Citadel. That's why we're getting a new Citadel. For people playing with this rule (either reading it online or buying a new printing where this rule is given) and playing with existing Citadel, that's an issue. Existing Citadel is a Throne Room variant that follows one rule for Throne Room variants and not the other rule for Throne Room variants.
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