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Author Topic: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier  (Read 8195 times)

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emtzalex

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2021, 12:45:20 am »
0


By requiring them to be dual-type, you are needlessly complicating and adding potentially unwanted interactions to the simplest of these cards (i.e. the ones that just offer something for sale). All of those interactions are still possible where Supplier is its own type (by making it a dual-type card) without forcing the complexity on the cards that don't need it.


I also agree with the two points laid out by Timinou. Having an entirely new card type with new color and all is far more needlessly complicated than a dual-type. Its the reason why Looters is simply a secondary type instead of an entirely new category of cards. Nights were pretty simple as far as a new type category goes, and yet Nocturne is widely considered the most complicated expansion, partly due to that mechanic. There's no reason why the simplest of the cards you mentioned can't be simply dual-typed treasures, that is a far simpler approach than the rules laid out in the op, and it seems that sentiment is agreed upon unanimously.

What makes a new type more complicated? You still have not explained that. How are dual types cards less complicated? Which of the instructions in my original post wouldn't need to be there using the dual type? As far as I can tell, all of those directions would still be necessary.

I've explained multiple times that with many Supplier cards, if they were Treasures it would create many interaction with existing cards that are both thematically illogical and practically undesirable. That's not universally true, and I think your Bribe or Timinou's Fare make sense as Treasure cards. But it will never make sense that a Bandit steals a Summoner or a group of Cossacks.
 
Looters are all Action cards, each of which only does things existing Action cards do (+$, +Cards, junking, trashing, gaining, etc.). It would make no sense for them not to be Action cards. The only reason they have a separate type is to indicate to players to add a Ruins pile.

If Nocturne is complicated, it has at least as much to do with introducing Boons, Hexes, Heirlooms, Spirits, and Zombies all at once than it does adding Night cards.

The sentiment isn't unanimous, since I still disagree with it, and I have yet to hear an actually explanation of why a new type is more complicated than a dual type.

This is incidental to the overall contest and discussion, but Miners and Ranch are incredibly weak. Here is a card that almost exactly replicates the ability of Miners, while being strictly stronger than it, yet it is still quite weak:



This lets you get 2 silvers for $4, a silver and gold for $7, and 2 golds for $10, without being nearly as restrictive as Mine.

And Ranch could just as well have stated "You may pay $2 to have this card be a cantrip later, or $4 to be a lab". It goes without saying that a one-shot cantrip that costs $2 is worthless, and one-shot lab for $4 is significantly weaker than both encampment and experiment.

Timinou previously made the same point, and I previously addressed it.

For example, I don't think Ranch really adds much over Ride to justify having an entirely new card type. 

You already mentioned that the value proposition of Suppliers needs to be much better relative to an Event, given that Suppliers could really end up being a junk card in your deck. Of the examples you posted, Miners and Ranch look quite weak.

I said these were examples, I didn't say they were good examples. I mostly wanted to show people see what the cards looked like, as I felt the explanation might not have done that in the most clear way. I agree that both of those cards are rather weak (although I think Miners could be useful on some boards). I put Ranch out there as a suggestion of how one might turn an Event into a Supplier (but I agree that it is not enough of an improvement).

Again, I put those out there to show how the cards worked mechanically.
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emtzalex

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2021, 01:10:21 am »
+1

not a submission

There is no need for a new type of "supplier".
In March 2021 I developed the mechanics of money bags. The idea behind it is that you can play treasure cards (!) for additional instructions at any stage of a turn. This has proven itself in practice.
The advantage is also that the mechanics are so easy to understand (especially by inexperienced players) that you do not need a new card type.

three examples

 

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

I saw your original money bags post, and I do not think it is that easy to understand. You may not have designed a new card type, but you designed an entirely new set of symbols, and a new place for cards to be (under Moneybags, with it's own set of rules).

The cards also work differently: yours can only be paid with basic Treasure cards, while the prices for Suppliers can be paid with coins from any source. They also mostly operate like Action cards, giving some effect with an option for an additional effect if the Treasure cards are put under them, making them more like Stables than an Event.

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2021, 02:37:05 am »
0

I agree with the suggestion of making these dual-type cards, unless there is a compelling reason to have an entirely separate card type.  It could allow for some cool (or unintended) interactions with Storyteller, Black Market, Crown, etc.

I think this mechanic is interesting, but I echo this sentiment as well. In fact, I would go for the following approach.
  • The Supplier is a subtype of any type of card that can be in play during the Buy phase. The Supplier type has no say in when the card is playable. (so a Night/Duration/Supplier card would be possible if you are bold)
  • The purchasing options are available during your buy phase if and only if the card is in play. (so for a Night/Duration/Supplier card, the options are available next turn)

This is another way that Suppliers could be implemented, but I don't see a really good reason for it. I don't understand the problem with a new type of card that is played in a fairly straightforward way. (I put all of the complex rules interactions in the description because the nature of this contest is that those end up being implicated, but the vast majority of the time the cards will simply be played during a player's Buy phase). If the "can-play-it-after-a-buy" element is that confusing/challenging, I would rather drop that then really significantly rework the cards as this suggests.

The thing is, Dominion has four primary types: Action Cards, Treasures, Victory Cards and Curses (the latter of which is only used by one card). Virtually all already existing cards are designed around this principle. Violating this by introducing a new primary type should not be done without a very good reason. You are introducing a type of cards that can be played at the same moments as Treasure Cards: during the Buy phase. The only differentiator is that Supplier cards can be played after buying. Which is totally redundant here!

Quote
By requiring them to be dual-type, you are needlessly complicating and adding potentially unwanted interactions to the simplest of these cards (i.e. the ones that just offer something for sale). All of those interactions are still possible where Supplier is its own type (by making it a dual-type card) without forcing the complexity on the cards that don't need it.

You got it backwards. These "complicating" interactions are part of Dominion! And by making a card having a new primary type also creates new complications. The card is not playable through Gamble. You can't Throne it, not even with Crown (and no, that is not preferable). Ironworks/Groom don't come with anything. And if you don't want your examples to be Treasures, make them Actions!

Speaking of unwanted interactions, the Night Card/Haunted Woods interaction is far worse than anything you mentioned here, yet it has been greenlighted.

Quote
I'm not really understanding what is so challenging about the mechanic as I laid it out. If it's really the color's similarity to Treasure, I'll find a different color. That being said, if you want to submit a card with a modified version of the rules, you can feel free to do so, and I'll judge them in that context (but your submission post needs to expressly state this; otherwise, I will presume you are using my rules as set out in the original post).
Do what you think is best I guess. We are only giving feedback. You are narrowing down design space quite significantly as Supply cards are always inherently playable through the Buy phase.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 02:39:37 am by grrgrrgrr »
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Timinou

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2021, 08:52:21 am »
0

By the way, couldn't any of the four examples posted by emtzalex or the card I posted earlier (Reproduce) work as Night cards?  Like if you have unspent money during your Buy phase, do you lose it at the end of your Buy phase or at the end of your turn?

I'm trying to play devil's advocate to see if there is a design space worth exploring for single-type Supplier cards, but I think it's quite limited insofar as you could accomplish the same effect with a Night card if you are able to use unspent money during the Night phase.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 09:00:22 am by Timinou »
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Timinou

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2021, 10:10:32 am »
0


Quote
Caravaneer - Action Supplier Gathering, $5 cost.
If it's your Action phase, +1 Action and Exile a non-Victory card from the Supply to put 1VP here.
Otherwise, for $3 + $1 per card you have in Exile: take all the VP here.
Like Crown, either the Action phase play or Buy phase Supplier play. The Supplier cost varies, and a purchase uses a Buy. The $5 cost or Supplier cost might be off, but here's the premise at least.

I like this card and I'm a sucker for alt-VP; however, I agree that the $5 cost might be off, given that you would need to spend a Buy as well as $3 + $1 card you have in Exile to score points with this.  It could be tricky to play with in Kingdoms without +Buy.
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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2021, 10:43:03 am »
+3

i think the mechanic's fine, we already threw the ABC mnemonic out when nocturne was released. Like there's other ways to do this too but it's like the difference between equip and enchanting a creature in mtg - semantic differences for essentially the same thing.


Quote
Salt Merchant • $3 • Supplier
Choose one
$0: +2 Buys

$1: When you gain a card this turn, trash a copy of it from the Supply.

$3: When you gain a card this turn, trash two copies of it from the Supply.

The instructions were unclear whether the purchasable options were exclusive, or whether we could do multiple, so I assumed multiple for an unspecified card and specified on mine for "do a single option".  The individual items costs are pretty low because you'll be working with a thinner hand than normal to use this, and also opportunity cost.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 05:24:01 pm by spineflu »
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emtzalex

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2021, 01:53:19 pm »
0

The thing is, Dominion has four primary types: Action Cards, Treasures, Victory Cards and Curses (the latter of which is only used by one card). Virtually all already existing cards are designed around this principle. Violating this by introducing a new primary type should not be done without a very good reason. You are introducing a type of cards that can be played at the same moments as Treasure Cards: during the Buy phase. The only differentiator is that Supplier cards can be played after buying. Which is totally redundant here!

That once was true. But then we got Night cards. And in this very contest, we have had Dawn cards. No one said that there shouldn't be Dawn cards, or that Dawn cards shouldn't work the way Mathdude proposed them; they talked about how best to design cards in the context of the mechanic as it was laid out.


You got it backwards. These "complicating" interactions are part of Dominion! And by making a card having a new primary type also creates new complications. The card is not playable through Gamble. You can't Throne it, not even with Crown (and no, that is not preferable). Ironworks/Groom don't come with anything. And if you don't want your examples to be Treasures, make them Actions!

But every one of those interactions are still available, by making Suppliers a dual-type card, which is permitted.


Do what you think is best I guess. We are only giving feedback. You are narrowing down design space quite significantly as Supply cards are always inherently playable through the Buy phase.

How? Every potential card design available under your suggested rule (Action-Supplier; Treasure-Supplier; Night-Duration-Supplier) is also available under my rule, but mine has additional potential designs available (e.g. plain Suppliers; Supplier-Duration; Supplier-Reaction; Supplier-Victory). Your suggestion limits the design space.


Speaking of unwanted interactions, the Night Card/Haunted Woods interaction is far worse than anything you mentioned here, yet it has been greenlighted.

Doesn't this suggest that your issue with Gamble/Crown/Ironworks/Groom (which is equally applicable to Night cards) is not really an issue (or at least not inconsistent with official card design)?


By the way, couldn't any of the four examples posted by emtzalex or the card I posted earlier (Reproduce) work as Night cards?  Like if you have unspent money during your Buy phase, do you lose it at the end of your Buy phase or at the end of your turn?

I'm trying to play devil's advocate to see if there is a design space worth exploring for single-type Supplier cards, but I think it's quite limited insofar as you could accomplish the same effect with a Night card if you are able to use unspent money during the Night phase.

If they were Night cards you couldn't buy the purchases before you made other Buys. For example, you can use Ranch to lower the price of a Destrier or increase the VP bonus of a Triumph by using it to gain Horses. If you had to wait until your Night phase, that wouldn't work. And, of course, you couldn't play them in time to avoid Haunted Woods (which itself would not be enough of a reason for a new card type).
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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2021, 04:43:03 pm »
+1

    Card idea: What if "return to your phase" was a card all on its own?


    Put "night" on it, so that it can become very exciting in night games. I made it say "return to any phase" so that if there is, say, a Dawn card in the kingdom, you could circumvent the dawn cards weakness. At a cost!

    Potential Issues:
    • "return to X phase" costs too much or little?
    • "+2 Actions" for 2$ is too good? Since you don't spend an action on Benevolent Goblin, its effectively a +3 Actions for 2$
    • In kingdoms without workshops, might it be boring?
    [li] [/li][/list]

    v2: Renamed it to "Elusive helper", increased the cost to 4, and made the extra Actions, Cards and buys cheaper. I hope its clearer that you buy the extra benefits as you buy the Phase ability.

    Rule Change (IMO): You can play Suppliers after you buy something in the buy phase, but you can only "buy" the suppliers options when you play it. If you choose not to play it, you cant buy the Suppliers event after you play another card.



    V3: my current rule changes:
    1: When you play a supplier, you unlock the option to buy the event. You can choose to not buy the event *Now*, but when you have bought it, you cant buy it again unless you play another Supplier.
    2: Buying supplier event does not cost Buy
    « Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 02:01:16 pm by fika monster »
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    grrgrrgrr

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    Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
    « Reply #33 on: June 07, 2021, 05:08:54 pm »
    +1

    Ok, I don't wanna turn this into a fight. You obviously have made up your mind, and your mechanic is still decent (it is definitely cleaner than just relying on the Night mechanic, especially if you want to add an on-play effect, which you generally should). But I feel I still need to clearify one part.

    Do what you think is best I guess. We are only giving feedback. You are narrowing down design space quite significantly as Supply cards are always inherently playable through the Buy phase.

    How? Every potential card design available under your suggested rule (Action-Supplier; Treasure-Supplier; Night-Duration-Supplier) is also available under my rule, but mine has additional potential designs available (e.g. plain Suppliers; Supplier-Duration; Supplier-Reaction; Supplier-Victory). Your suggestion limits the design space.

    The thing is, no matter what type you add, the card will ALWAYS be playable during the buy phase under your rule. This makes impossible to design a terminal Action/Supplier card that forces you to use an action to get the options. Your Ranch example would make for a decent $5 Action/Supplier card if you added "+3 Cards" as an on-play effect. But when it has to be playable during the Buy phase (nonterminally), it becomes hella busted. 

    On the flip side, being a Supplier or a Treasure/Supplier has no intrinsic difference. As such, all type combos you mentioned can be achieved by adding "Treasure" to the typeset in my version. And if you really don't want them to be Treasures, you can also make them Action/Suppliers and make them non-terminal.

    Lastly, the Reaction/Supplier is actually possible if you are bold. You can use the "Reaction" part to enable the card being put into play when a specific condition is met. This adds some additional wacky design space, although it should be used with great care.
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    emtzalex

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    Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
    « Reply #34 on: June 07, 2021, 05:57:13 pm »
    0

    The thing is, no matter what type you add, the card will ALWAYS be playable during the buy phase under your rule. This makes impossible to design a terminal Action/Supplier card that forces you to use an action to get the options. Your Ranch example would make for a decent $5 Action/Supplier card if you added "+3 Cards" as an on-play effect. But when it has to be playable during the Buy phase (nonterminally), it becomes hella busted. 

    Couldn't that version of Ranch just say "If it's your Action phase, +3 Cards."
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    Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
    « Reply #35 on: June 08, 2021, 02:14:00 am »
    0

      For Week 12, I am introducing a new card type that I have experiment with a bit, Suppliers. Suppliers are cards that, once gained and played, offer the player one or more additional options during their Buy phase. Generally, Suppliers will come in a 10 card Kingdom piles in the Supply like any other Kingdom card.
      [/li]
      [/list]

      The deadline for submissions will be 18:00 UTC / 2:00 p.m. Eastern/Forum time on Friday, June 11, 2021. I hope you enjoy designing these. Please let me know if you have any questions.

      Question: If you play a supplier A, and then  supplier B, can you after that buy supplier A's effect?
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      Aquila

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      Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
      « Reply #36 on: June 08, 2021, 04:49:35 am »
      +5

      I revised my entry to this:

      Pure Supplier seems to fit the contest a bit closer, and removing the choice to Exile or buy the VP effectively cheapens the VP. As does the cost reduction to $4 and price of the VP fixed at $4.

      Anyway, here is my submission.

      I like this because it follows what I'm sensing is a good way to do a Supplier card, provide multiple buy options that interact with each other. The card is powered up in a balanced way (provided it doesn't become a complete strategy without an appropriate total cost).
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      Timinou

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      Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
      « Reply #37 on: June 08, 2021, 09:27:01 am »
      +2

      I revised my entry to this:

      Pure Supplier seems to fit the contest a bit closer, and removing the choice to Exile or buy the VP effectively cheapens the VP. As does the cost reduction to $4 and price of the VP fixed at $4.

      I like this version of Caravaneer better than the original one (and I liked that one too!). 

      One potential issue could be the potential for this to lead to long games, since you have the option of Exiling Coppers.  For that reason, I wonder if the Exiling should be restricted to Action cards, although I recognize that it would make Caravaneer somewhat weaker.

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      Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
      « Reply #38 on: June 08, 2021, 10:38:25 am »
      +1

        For Week 12, I am introducing a new card type that I have experiment with a bit, Suppliers. Suppliers are cards that, once gained and played, offer the player one or more additional options during their Buy phase. Generally, Suppliers will come in a 10 card Kingdom piles in the Supply like any other Kingdom card.
        [/li]
        [/list]

        The deadline for submissions will be 18:00 UTC / 2:00 p.m. Eastern/Forum time on Friday, June 11, 2021. I hope you enjoy designing these. Please let me know if you have any questions.

        Question: If you play a supplier A, and then  supplier B, can you after that buy supplier A's effect?

        Yes. Playing a Supplier card is like adding a new Event (or multiple Events, if it has more than one purchase option) to the game, but one that is only available to the player who played the card, and only that turn. Buying the purchases isn't part of resolving the card (as, for example, paying your coins to Storyteller to draw cards is).
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        Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
        « Reply #39 on: June 08, 2021, 06:29:08 pm »
        0



        Quote
        Shrewd Collector - $5
        Supplier
        +1 Buy
        $1: Discard a non-Victory card. If it costs...
        $0, trash it to gain a Silver.
        $1 to $4, gain a copy of a non-Victory card you have in play.
        $5 or more, +$6.

        I went with a design that cares about card cost and does not interact well with Victory cards. Kind of a mashup between a trasher, a gainer, and Baron. The fact that Suppliers take up a card slot that could have been a treasure makes pricing things appropriately strange. I hope I got it right, but this may not be a balanced design. Feedback is welcome.

        Edit: Buffed the first two rewards a bit. The gainer ability now can get any non-VP card that is already in play. The trash ability now also gains you Silver. Thought about letting you draw a card or giving more Buys, but didn't really want the different rewards be super synergistic and potentially degenerative. Thanks to grrgrrgrr for the feedback.

        Old Versions

        « Last Edit: June 09, 2021, 05:33:36 pm by Xen3k »
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        grrgrrgrr

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        Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
        « Reply #40 on: June 09, 2021, 07:14:21 am »
        +1



        Quote
        Shrewd Collector - $5
        Supplier
        +1 Buy
        $1: Discard a non-Victory card. If it costs...
        $0, trash it.
        $1 to $4, gain a copy of it.
        $5 or more, +$6.

        I went with a design that cares about card cost and does not interact well with Victory cards. Kind of a mashup between a trasher, a gainer, and Baron. The fact that Suppliers take up a card slot that could have been a treasure makes pricing things appropriately strange. I hope I got it right, but this may not be a balanced design. Feedback is welcome.

        This card has potential to be interesting as a payload card if you manage to fill your deck with surplus $5+ costing actions, because a net gain of $5 is nothing to sneeze at (and it is also somewhat decent with Gold). You may wanna beef up the other two bonuses a little, especially the gainer one, as they are pretty weak. For the gainer one, you can also just say "gain a card costing up to $4".
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        emtzalex

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        Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
        « Reply #41 on: June 10, 2021, 02:00:28 pm »
        +3

        24 HOUR WARNING!!!

        Here is what I believe to be the current list of entries. Please let me know if I have missed yours or if you have updated it:

        Bribe by The Alchemist
        Caravaneer by Aquila
        Trade Agreement by grrgrrgrr
        Elusive Helper by fika monster
        Fare by Timinou
        Salt Merchant by spineflu
        Shrewd Collector by Xen3k
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        Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
        « Reply #42 on: June 11, 2021, 02:00:58 pm »
        0


        Submissions are Closed!!!


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        Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
        « Reply #43 on: June 11, 2021, 02:02:18 pm »
        0


        Submissions are Closed!!!

        uh, I didn't see this until I just posted the updated version of Elusive helper: Can I still use it (v4 that is)?
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        Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
        « Reply #44 on: June 11, 2021, 02:11:10 pm »
        +1


        Submissions are Closed!!!

        uh, I didn't see this until I just posted the updated version of Elusive helper: Can I still use it (v4 that is)?

        That is fine.
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        Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
        « Reply #45 on: June 11, 2021, 02:12:52 pm »
        +3

        It appears that there are 7 entries this week. Please check below and make sure I have the latest version of your card (and that I didn't miss it). I'll edit this post to add judgements by Sunday night (in the United States), and add a separate post with the winner and runner(s) up.


        Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier




        Quote from: Bribe
        Bribe -- $5
        Treasure - Supplier
        $2
        $0: Put a card from your
        discard pile onto your deck.
        $2 Play an Action or Treasure
        card from your discard pile.
        Bribe by The Alchemist

        So, based on your final response about your modification of the rules, I think there may be some continued miscommunication about how these cards work. Absent limiting language (e.g. "once per turn"), the player who plays the Supplier can buy each purchase as many times as they are able to pay the cost and spend a Buy. Thus, as Bribe currently exists, if the first purchase did not cost a Buy, a player who played this would be able to put as many cards from their discard pile onto their deck in any order. The second purchase would also mean that this would give an additional +$1 for each Gold in a player's discard pile, and +$3 for each Platinum (they could also play every Silver for no net effect, unless they followed that up with a Bank or Raid). Thus, I presume you intended the abilities to only be used once per play of the card (otherwise, it is super busted).

        Even with that modification, it's almost strictly better than Royal Seal, an already pretty solid Treasure at the same price point. Not only can this topdeck the card you just bought, it can topdeck any other card you prefer, and that's only with the first purchase option. (The disadvantage being that if you gained multiple cards, this would only topdeck one). The second option effectively transforms this into the best Treasure card or Action card, as you gain $2 to spend $2. This would include all of the terminal Gold Action cards (Legionary, Sacred Grove, etc.) including Horse Traders, which you could play after getting all of the useful cards out of your hand.

        This could definitely be an interesting card to play, but as is I think it is too strong.






        Quote from: Caravaneer
        Caravaneer -- $4
        Supplier - Gathering
        Exile a non-Victory card
        from the Supply to put 1VP
        on the Caravaneer pile.

        $4: take all the VP on the
        Caravaneer pile.
        Caravaneer by Aquila

        This is an interesting take on the mechanic. The most obvious comparison to an official card is Camel Train. This costs $1 more and loses the on-gain bonus, but does not cost an Action and has the added benefit of the Gathering function. I don't think the added cost is that important, as the main difference between $3 and $4 is often the ability to open with two of them, which I do not think one would want to do with either card. The on-Buy loss is more significant, but it is more or less cancelled out by the benefits.

        The main question for me is whether or not you would want to be buying the purchase on the turn you Exiled the card. While I tend to buy Camel Train to fight early rushes of cards like Tournament, once that fight is done I tend to use it more like duplicate, Exiling the card I am going to buy anyway (hopefully a Platinum or Gold, but sometimes a Bazaar or Venture). Here, players are going to tend to want to use the VP gain later on, which means the Exile-buy combo is off the table. Generally, this is exactly the kind of trade-off that makes for interesting decisions in the game, and I do ultimately like it, but I also think it makes the card a bit weaker than is ideal.







        Quote from: Trade Agreement
        Trade Agreement -- $5
        Treasure - Supplier
        +$2
        +1 Buy

        $1: Exile a card from
        your hand
        $3: Gain a Duchy
        Trade Agreement by grrgrrgrr

        An interesting entry. By itself, on play it either functions as Spices or a Goat (but Exiling instead of trashing). Of course, that's only if you want to Buy something that turn. If you drew a hand with Trade Agreement and only Victory cards, you could play the Trade Agreement and Exile 2 of them, a potent third option.

        It also allows you to buy two Duchies with only $4 more in your hand, meaning the rest of the cards could be, on average, a Copper, and you get a Province worth of VP. While it does put twice as many dead cards in your deck, Trade Agreement's strong ability to Exile cards mitigates that substantially. I think this would become extremely centralizing, forcing the players to contend over Duchies before moving on to Provinces. I do like the idea, but I think it might work better if the second purchase gave, like, VP tokens for buying Victory cards (or something to that effect) that would allow for a wider set of ways to use it.







        Quote from: Elusive Helper
        Elusive Helper -- $4
        Night - Supplier
        For $3: Return to the start
        of any phase.
        Pick two different options:
        +1 Action; +2 Cards;
        +2 Buys; Gain a silver.

        Elusive Helper by fika monster

        First off, I am not exactly sure why this is a Night card. You are not able to Buy the purchase (or, as you described it, "the event") during your Night phase. Using one of these purchases works just like buying an Event, and just as you cannot buy an Event during your Night phase, you cannot buy a purchase. Since this does not do anything other than offer the purchase, I presume your intention is to allow the purchase to be made during the Night phase. If you could make the buy during the Night phase, the main difference would be to allow players to play other Night cards first. This could be significant for a couple of reasons: first, you could use Night Watchman to reorder the top of your deck then use those cards this turn; you could use Monastery to trash a card with an on-trash bonus and take advantage of that; or you could get around Haunted Woods by playing a Night card, returning to your buy phase, then buying the card you want (down $3, but up whatever you could get through the cards you gained). To be honest, I'm not sure it makes a ton of sense to have this be a Supplier. It could just as easily be a regular Night card that says something like "If you have at least $3, you may spend $3 to..."

        Whether or not it can be used in the Night phase, Elusive Helper is a supercharged version of the on-buy mechanics of Villa and Cavalry. It could be quite useful when you get stuck with terminal Action cards, either because you drew them dead or drew them during your Buy phase after using Toil or Scepter. In the former case, the card's effect is kind of a super-Lost City, offering additional options (+Buys/Silver gain) and allowing itself to be played when drawn dead. However, I'm not sure those benefits are really worth the -$3 cost. If you contrast the card with a village, your net benefit from this is generally going to be 1 card, and you only "break even" when that card is a Gold, an average that most decks don't achieve for most of the game. In a deck with no other villages and solid terminal drawing (Smithy, Torturer, etc.), it could be useful for that purposes. But generally if you are regularly drawing Action cards dead, this is hardly the most effective way of dealing with that. This contrasts with the on-buy versions of this. As with an Event, the benefit of Villa/Cavalry's on-buy bonus is that they are available to be received without needing a card in your deck to provide them. Here, Elusive Helper is either a dead card or you have to shell out the $3 for the limited effect. (This is somewhat mitigated by the silver-gaining option, as it does function as a virtually +Buy, albeit one that forces you to use that extra buy on a Silver).







        Quote from: Fare
        Fare -- $5
        Treasure - Supplier
        $2
        +1 Buy

        $1: Draw an extra card for your next hand.
        Fare by Timinou


        Another strictly-better-than-Silver-for-$5 Treasure. This is not a problem, as it is a pretty logically price point for such a card: you are missing Gold, but still expecting something meaningfully better than Silver, which is a questionable prospect at $4 (and, in fact, more than half of the official Kingdom Treasures cost $5, 17 out of 33). Since you are missing Gold, you are not giving up that much by only getting $2 (there are certainly Kingdoms where at least some strategies would involve buying a Silver when hitting $5, at least some of the time), so the benefit shouldn't be too powerful (think Royal Seal, Relic, or Idol). I think this fits that happy medium.

        What I really like bout this card is that it will tend to play one of three ways: either you'll (a) use the $2 to hit a price point ($6 for Gold, $8 for Province, etc.) and forget about the +Buy and Supplier; or (b) use the $2 and +Buy to buy two cards (maybe a Village and a Smithy at $7); or you will use $1 to hit a price point and the other $1 and the Buy to juice your next turn (buying a Gold at $7). Only (b) and (c) are better than Silver, and only (c) is better than Spices (which also has an on-Gain bonus you're foregoing here). It does provide some additional options. If this is the only Treasure you draw (perhaps while greening at the end of the game), you could use it to get two cards on the following turn, an interesting alternative to buying an Estate.

        This definitely creates some interesting new gameplay options without being overpowered.







        Quote from: Salt Merchant
        Salt Merchant -- $3
        Supplier
        Choose one:
        $0: +2 Buys
        $1: When you gain a card this turn, trash a copy of it from the Supply.
        $3: When you gain a card this turn, trash two copies of it from the Supply.
        Salt Merchant by spineflu

        Another very interesting entry, I see a couple of pretty significant problems with the card. First, unless you have another source of +Buy (either a second copy of the card or from elsewhere), the second and third options are nearly useless, as you would not be able to gain a card by buying it in order to get the effect. It would only be useful if you gained a card by playing a Night card, and only three of those (Changeling, Devil's Workshop, and Vampire) gain cards from the Supply during your Night phase.

        The second issue is that trashing from the Supply is of fairly limited value. The obvious analogy here is Salt the Earth, a card which can win you games (and has for me). When you hit a Province and your opponent had to settle for a Duchy, trashing the last Province can easily be the difference between winning an losing (especially when you hit $4 and would otherwise have to settle for an Estate). But key to that use is the Event always being available so that you can purchase it the one time you need it. Other than that, I can see three general uses for this: trying to win the split of a pile when you got the head start, filing the trash for gain-from-trash cards, and triggering on-trash abilities. In the first case, getting ahead in such a split is often going to be made harder by buying this instead of Silver (or the card your trying to pile itself). With the gain-from-trash cards, they each have their own way of filling the trash (although that doesn't make this an entirely bad prospect, as it is trashing cards you're buying anyway). For the on-trash abilities, it would be quite nice with Fortress or Catacombs, but beyond that the use is pretty limited.

        While this is a really interesting idea, I think its actual use is limited.






        Quote from: Shrewd Collector
        Shrewd Collector -- $5
        Supplier
        +1 Buy
        $1: Discard a non-Victory card. If it costs...
        $0, trash it to gain a Silver.
        $1 to $4, gain a copy of a non-Victory card you have in play.
        $5 or more, +$6.
        Shrewd Collector by Xen3k

        This card is really something. Early on it can be a pretty effective trasher of Coppers (and later, Curses). The ability to gain a Silver is an interesting twist on Moneylender's +$3; that is what you would have spent, but it is not nearly as good as all of the things you could otherwise do with +$3 (and you had to spend $1 to get it, making it closer to one of the options with Sacrifice). Later, the second ability can allow for all sorts of plays. The most common (imo) would be to discard a Silver when to get a second copy of an Action card you are trying to rush (hopefully being able to afford another copy or something else). But it also provides some interesting synergies with cards like Baron that collisions to work properly. The third ability means that, as long as you have a Gold in your hand, it is at least a Silver, as you can discard the Gold for a net of +$5.

        I really appreciate that while this card can work a lot of different ways, on any given turn there are not likely to be that many practical options, so it has the benefit of versatility without the risk of analysis paralysis. I also like that this answers the question of why it should be a card, rather than an Event, and why a player would want to buy more than one. Here, the second copy of Shrewd Collector can be used to get the +$5.

        « Last Edit: June 14, 2021, 12:19:50 pm by emtzalex »
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        Xen3k

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        Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
        « Reply #46 on: June 11, 2021, 02:54:17 pm »
        0

        The pictured version of Shrewd Collector is outdated, btw.
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        emtzalex

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        Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
        « Reply #47 on: June 11, 2021, 04:27:39 pm »
        +1

        The pictured version of Shrewd Collector is outdated, btw.

        Thanks. Don't know how I missed that. It's been corrected.
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        Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
        « Reply #48 on: June 11, 2021, 06:52:32 pm »
        0

        Apologies, I meant to update my post with the feedback received. If not to late could you judge this version?

        « Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 06:55:08 pm by The Alchemist »
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        emtzalex

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        Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 12: High on your own Supplier
        « Reply #49 on: June 11, 2021, 07:38:41 pm »
        0

        Apologies, I meant to update my post with the feedback received. If not to late could you judge this version?



        Yes, I'm willing to do that. Do you still want the same rules modification you had before? In your original post you said:

        In my implementation, taking an effect from a Supplier does not use up a buy, as far too often you would just want to include "+1 Buy" for the effect to be worth it.

        If not, please let me know what, if any, rules modifications there are.

        Since I've already let in two late amendments, and I probably won't be able to start the judging until Sunday, I think I will just extend the deadline by 24 hours, but this will be a firm deadline. Please have a final version of your submission (including both the card and any variation on the rule that you are proposing) by absolutely no later than 18:00 UTC / 2:00 p.m. Eastern/Forum time on Saturday, June 12, 2021.
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