Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Sleigh gained to hand  (Read 918 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

AJD

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3109
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +4064
    • View Profile
Sleigh gained to hand
« on: May 29, 2021, 11:20:51 am »
+1

The wiki says:

Quote
If you gain a Sleigh to your hand (with e.g. Sculptor), and it's the only Sleigh in your hand, you cannot discard the Sleigh to put itself onto your deck.

Is this because of the stop-moving rule? Like, you gain the Sleigh, you discard the Sleigh by its reaction; it fails to move to your deck because it's already moved to your discard pile? Or can you not discard it at all? If not, why?
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9139
  • Respect: +9985
    • View Profile
Re: Sleigh gained to hand
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2021, 08:15:26 pm »
+2

The wiki says:

Quote
If you gain a Sleigh to your hand (with e.g. Sculptor), and it's the only Sleigh in your hand, you cannot discard the Sleigh to put itself onto your deck.

Is this because of the stop-moving rule? Like, you gain the Sleigh, you discard the Sleigh by its reaction; it fails to move to your deck because it's already moved to your discard pile? Or can you not discard it at all? If not, why?

Yeah I can't see any possible reason that you can't still use the reaction and at least discard Sleigh. By the rules, when you discard a Sleigh after gaining a Sleigh, it is impossible to know if the Sleigh you discarded was the same one or not. So it must be the first one; you can discard it but it will fail to go onto your deck. This makes sense with stop-moving; the effect is expecting the card to be wherever it was gained to, but it has moved from there so the effect cannot move it.

By contrast, if you gain a Watchtower to hand, then you definitely should be able to reveal that same Watchtower to topdeck or trash it, because Watchtower's reaction doesn't require you to move it.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2021, 08:16:57 pm by GendoIkari »
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Wizard_Amul

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +161
    • View Profile
Re: Sleigh gained to hand
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2021, 12:45:45 am »
0

The wiki says:

Quote
If you gain a Sleigh to your hand (with e.g. Sculptor), and it's the only Sleigh in your hand, you cannot discard the Sleigh to put itself onto your deck.

Is this because of the stop-moving rule? Like, you gain the Sleigh, you discard the Sleigh by its reaction; it fails to move to your deck because it's already moved to your discard pile? Or can you not discard it at all? If not, why?

Yeah I can't see any possible reason that you can't still use the reaction and at least discard Sleigh. By the rules, when you discard a Sleigh after gaining a Sleigh, it is impossible to know if the Sleigh you discarded was the same one or not. So it must be the first one; you can discard it but it will fail to go onto your deck. This makes sense with stop-moving; the effect is expecting the card to be wherever it was gained to, but it has moved from there so the effect cannot move it.

By contrast, if you gain a Watchtower to hand, then you definitely should be able to reveal that same Watchtower to topdeck or trash it, because Watchtower's reaction doesn't require you to move it.

I think these are both correct--I just tested online and do see both of these behaviors.

Also, the online version does something else (may be a bug, but I think it makes sense according to the stop-moving rule)--I also tested using Sculptor to gain a Sleigh when I already had a Sleigh in hand. It didn't let me discard one Sleigh to topdeck the other Sleigh. It just discarded one Sleigh, and the other Sleigh stayed in my hand. I think this may be the stop-moving rule again--it's expecting to find the gained Sleigh in the discard pile and then topdeck that one, but because the Sleigh goes to hand when using Sculptor, the Sleigh you discard doesn't find the other Sleigh in the expected place.
Logged

AJD

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3109
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +4064
    • View Profile
Re: Sleigh gained to hand
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2021, 03:30:00 am »
+1

The wiki says:

Quote
If you gain a Sleigh to your hand (with e.g. Sculptor), and it's the only Sleigh in your hand, you cannot discard the Sleigh to put itself onto your deck.

Is this because of the stop-moving rule? Like, you gain the Sleigh, you discard the Sleigh by its reaction; it fails to move to your deck because it's already moved to your discard pile? Or can you not discard it at all? If not, why?

Yeah I can't see any possible reason that you can't still use the reaction and at least discard Sleigh. By the rules, when you discard a Sleigh after gaining a Sleigh, it is impossible to know if the Sleigh you discarded was the same one or not. So it must be the first one; you can discard it but it will fail to go onto your deck. This makes sense with stop-moving; the effect is expecting the card to be wherever it was gained to, but it has moved from there so the effect cannot move it.

By contrast, if you gain a Watchtower to hand, then you definitely should be able to reveal that same Watchtower to topdeck or trash it, because Watchtower's reaction doesn't require you to move it.

I think these are both correct--I just tested online and do see both of these behaviors.

Also, the online version does something else (may be a bug, but I think it makes sense according to the stop-moving rule)--I also tested using Sculptor to gain a Sleigh when I already had a Sleigh in hand. It didn't let me discard one Sleigh to topdeck the other Sleigh. It just discarded one Sleigh, and the other Sleigh stayed in my hand. I think this may be the stop-moving rule again--it's expecting to find the gained Sleigh in the discard pile and then topdeck that one, but because the Sleigh goes to hand when using Sculptor, the Sleigh you discard doesn't find the other Sleigh in the expected place.

No, that seems to be a bugóthe fact that the Sleigh is gained directly to hand shouldn't invoke the stop-moving rule; when something is gained to a nonstandard location (via the No Visiting rule), effects that move the gained card should still be able to find it. Maybe what you did was try to discard the gained Sleigh to top-deck the other Sleigh (shouldn't work), instead of discarding the original Sleigh to top-deck the gained Sleigh (should work)?
Logged

Wizard_Amul

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +161
    • View Profile
Re: Sleigh gained to hand
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2021, 05:08:44 am »
0

Oh yeah, youíre right about the nonstandard location and No Visiting portion. I think the reason is what youíre sayingóthe online client doesnít let you choose which Sleigh to react with. In person, you would just say youíre reacting with the one you didnít gain.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9139
  • Respect: +9985
    • View Profile
Re: Sleigh gained to hand
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2021, 10:46:42 am »
0

If the other Sleigh stayed in your hand, did the client give the option to react again with the other one? It should have. You should be able to discard all Sleighs in your hand when you gain a card, even though only the first one would actually do its full ability.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Wizard_Amul

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +161
    • View Profile
Re: Sleigh gained to hand
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2021, 02:13:52 pm »
0

If the other Sleigh stayed in your hand, did the client give the option to react again with the other one? It should have. You should be able to discard all Sleighs in your hand when you gain a card, even though only the first one would actually do its full ability.

I didn't think so--I just checked, and it doesn't give me the option to react again with the other one. It shows both "topdeck" and "put in hand" options with a "2" in the upper left corner of each option (so I think it's recognizing both sleighs)--no matter which option I pick, though, one sleigh gets discarded and nothing else happens. It doesn't react the second sleigh afterwards.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9139
  • Respect: +9985
    • View Profile
Re: Sleigh gained to hand
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2021, 11:31:19 pm »
+1

If the other Sleigh stayed in your hand, did the client give the option to react again with the other one? It should have. You should be able to discard all Sleighs in your hand when you gain a card, even though only the first one would actually do its full ability.

I didn't think so--I just checked, and it doesn't give me the option to react again with the other one. It shows both "topdeck" and "put in hand" options with a "2" in the upper left corner of each option (so I think it's recognizing both sleighs)--no matter which option I pick, though, one sleigh gets discarded and nothing else happens. It doesn't react the second sleigh afterwards.

This seems strange, unless it's an intentional thing where they figured that it wasn't worth the confusion that could be cause from people thinking that 2 different Sleighs could both be used normally on a single gain. I am curious though if it's even related to gaining a Sleigh to hand... if you are just holding 2 Sleighs and gain a card normally, do you have the ability to react with both Sleighs?

With Watchtower, I would think it doesn't give you the option to react to a gain with multiple Watchtowers because reacting to a gain with 2 different Watchtowers is just like reacting with the same Watchtower multiple times... which is the same situation as revealing a Moat over and over... it's a thing you can legally do in Dominion, but it has no effect on the actual game state. But Sleigh is different because you discard the Sleigh instead of revealing it.

If you can't react to a gain with multiple Sleighs, then I would guess that it's intentionally done that way for convenience over strict rule following. But if you can, then it's really weird that it wouldn't work when you gain a Sleigh to hand.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Wizard_Amul

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +161
    • View Profile
Re: Sleigh gained to hand
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2021, 11:17:18 am »
0

I'm not entirely sure if all the behavior is a bug or on purpose, but I still think it's strange how it seems to work. I tested all of these using workshop as the gainer.

If I gain something to the discard pile normally and have multiple sleighs in hand, it only lets me react with one sleigh, no matter which option I choose.

If I gain a sleigh to the discard pile normally and have 1+ sleighs in my hand, if I pick the topdeck option, it only lets me react with one sleigh.

If I gain a sleigh to the discard pile normally and have 1+ sleighs in my hand, if I pick the put in hand option, it lets me react repeatedly with sleigh as many times as I want. I assume this somehow has to do with the fact that the composition of my hand is changing each time and that a "new" sleigh is being placed in my hand in each step. I still think it's weird that this happens, given the other behaviors.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9139
  • Respect: +9985
    • View Profile
Re: Sleigh gained to hand
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2021, 01:55:49 pm »
0

For the last one.. when you say as many times as you want, do you mean once for each Sleigh? Or is it actually putting a Sleigh into your hand more than once total? It definitely shouldnít be possible to put a gained card into your hand once it has moved from its default gain location.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Wizard_Amul

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +161
    • View Profile
Re: Sleigh gained to hand
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2021, 03:16:30 pm »
0

For the last one.. when you say as many times as you want, do you mean once for each Sleigh? Or is it actually putting a Sleigh into your hand more than once total? It definitely shouldnít be possible to put a gained card into your hand once it has moved from its default gain location.

I mean it lets you do it infinitely. Thereís either a bug or some confusing trigger timing. I think itís doing this:

1. I have Sleigh A in hand and a gainer in hand.
2. I play my gainer to gain Sleigh B to my discard pile.
3. I can react Sleigh A to put Sleigh B in my hand.
4. I put Sleigh B in my hand and Sleigh A gets discarded.
5. Sleigh B now triggers and lets me put Sleigh A in hand.
6. I put Sleigh A in my hand and Sleigh B gets discarded.
7. Steps 3-6 keep repeating forever.

Step 5 is maybe the bugged step. Iím not sure if itís counting discarding Sleigh A as gaining it and/or if itís a delayed trigger and is triggering sleigh B on its own previous gain to the discard pile.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9139
  • Respect: +9985
    • View Profile
Re: Sleigh gained to hand
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2021, 03:28:03 pm »
+1

For the last one.. when you say as many times as you want, do you mean once for each Sleigh? Or is it actually putting a Sleigh into your hand more than once total? It definitely shouldnít be possible to put a gained card into your hand once it has moved from its default gain location.

I mean it lets you do it infinitely. Thereís either a bug or some confusing trigger timing. I think itís doing this:

1. I have Sleigh A in hand and a gainer in hand.
2. I play my gainer to gain Sleigh B to my discard pile.
3. I can react Sleigh A to put Sleigh B in my hand.
4. I put Sleigh B in my hand and Sleigh A gets discarded.
5. Sleigh B now triggers and lets me put Sleigh A in hand.
6. I put Sleigh A in my hand and Sleigh B gets discarded.
7. Steps 3-6 keep repeating forever.

Step 5 is maybe the bugged step. Iím not sure if itís counting discarding Sleigh A as gaining it and/or if itís a delayed trigger and is triggering sleigh B on its own previous gain to the discard pile.

Yeah thatís definitely wrong. I think itís right up through step 4; you should indeed be able to discard your newly-gained Sleigh in response to gaining it; after moving it to your hand with Sleigh B. But discarding it should have no other effect... it obviously shouldnít affect Sleigh A since Sleigh A wasnít even just gained; and it shouldnít affect Sleigh B because sleigh B has moved since it was gained; so stop-moving should prevent it from moving again.

One other question... if you have no Sleighs in hand, but gain a Sleigh to your hand, what happens? You should be able to discard your new Sleigh; and it should just stay in your discard pile if you do. But based on the behavior of this other situation, it sounds like it might let you infinitely move Sleigh back to your hand and discard it again.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Wizard_Amul

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +161
    • View Profile
Re: Sleigh gained to hand
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2021, 04:01:50 pm »
0

Correct, if I gain a Sleigh to hand without having another Sleigh in hand, I can pick either option and it will discard sleigh once and do nothing elseóno additional prompts.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9139
  • Respect: +9985
    • View Profile
Re: Sleigh gained to hand
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2021, 05:27:34 pm »
0

Correct, if I gain a Sleigh to hand without having another Sleigh in hand, I can pick either option and it will discard sleigh once and do nothing elseóno additional prompts.

While thatís correct; Iím surprised that the other bug doesnít apply here as well. 
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.071 seconds with 22 queries.