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Author Topic: Fan Mechanics Week #11: Acting Sideways  (Read 7182 times)

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bootymancer

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #11: Acting Sideways
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2021, 09:28:32 pm »
+2

Here's what I landed on for my submission:


Quote
Vacation
Act
Turn your Journey token over (it starts face up).
Then if it is face up, at the end of your Clean-up phase draw 2 extra cards and take [2 Debt].

Acts pose some interesting design constraints as-is, so naturally I had some trouble balancing an Act which required a total investment of 2 Actions to see any benefit. My original mock-up gave only 1 card. However, the 2 Action cost made this feel rather underwhelming so I upped the pay-off to 2 cards. This felt suitably rewarding, but I realized that both versions (particularly the latter) were too dominant in the early turns. A 6 or 7 card hand on Turn 3 with, effectively, no downsides would be too good to pass up. I ultimately settled on adding Debt (Vacations are scarcely free after all) as a counterweight.

My main concern is in tracking an effect like this- where the benefit of flipping the Journey token face up is delayed- if it is triggered multiple times in a turn. I can foresee some difficulties there, but it seems manageable.
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Timinou

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #11: Acting Sideways
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2021, 10:43:08 am »
+2

Vacation is an interesting idea, but maybe a bit too weak?  The benefit over Way of the Squirrel is that you don't need to have an Action card in hand, but on the flip side you need to spend an extra Action and take 2 debt.

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mathdude

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #11: Acting Sideways
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2021, 03:33:03 pm »
+5



So you start your hand with 2 terminal Action cards.  Is it worth giving everyone else an extra card to be able to play them both?  Often.  But they draw at the end of your turn, so you can't let them draw up to 6, then hit them with a Militia after (it's the other way around - they discard down to 3, then draw an extra card).

How about if you start your hand with a Smithy and you're fairly certain you'll draw a dead action or more.  Would you risk giving others a card in this case?
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Aquila

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #11: Acting Sideways
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2021, 04:16:11 pm »
+4

24 hours left
So far I have:
Obey by spineflu
Last Resort by naitchman
Courier by Timinou
Exports by emtzalex
Payoff by Xen3k
Exchange by mxdata
Arcane Conscription by Mahowrath
Recruit by grrgrrgrr
Vacation by bootymancer
Lost Village by mathdude
Game of Thrones by fika monster
Refine by The Alchemist
« Last Edit: June 03, 2021, 04:16:38 pm by Aquila »
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fika monster

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #11: Acting Sideways
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2021, 08:13:36 am »
+3

Late entry

fika monsters motto: when in doubt, put Throne Room on it!



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Timinou

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #11: Acting Sideways
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2021, 11:08:02 am »
+4

Late entry

fika monsters motto: when in doubt, put Throne Room on it!



This is great for the opening.  You get to thin and you're guaranteed to be able to hit $5 before the first shuffle.  I would think that playing this on Coppers early in the game would be the optimal thing to do, rather than on your Actions (unless it's something like Doctor).

Looks fun, but it's probably quite game-warping.

Rules question - if you play this on a Horse, you play it twice and the Horse gets returned to its pile; but do you then still Exile it?  Procession doesn't trash Horses, so I'm assuming the same would happen here, but I wasn't sure. 
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gambit05

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #11: Acting Sideways
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2021, 11:42:13 am »
+1

Late entry

fika monsters motto: when in doubt, put Throne Room on it!



This is great for the opening.  You get to thin and you're guaranteed to be able to hit $5 before the first shuffle.  I would think that playing this on Coppers early in the game would be the optimal thing to do, rather than on your Actions (unless it's something like Doctor).

Looks fun, but it's probably quite game-warping.

Rules question - if you play this on a Horse, you play it twice and the Horse gets returned to its pile; but do you then still Exile it?  Procession doesn't trash Horses, so I'm assuming the same would happen here, but I wasn't sure.

I agree with Timinou. It looks fun, but also a bit too strong. I haven't read the instructions for Acts carefully, but my understanding is that they are supposed to be weak, something like the power level of Ways. How about removing the Treasure part? In addition, a clause like "...if it is still in play, Exile it." would help simplifying it rule-wise and would also prevent any abuse of cards that leave play.
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emtzalex

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #11: Acting Sideways
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2021, 12:14:53 pm »
+1

Rules question - if you play this on a Horse, you play it twice and the Horse gets returned to its pile; but do you then still Exile it?  Procession doesn't trash Horses, so I'm assuming the same would happen here, but I wasn't sure.

Under the Stop-moving rule, GoT would expect the card it played to be in play, and would be unable to Exile it if it wasn't. In the case of Horse, the Exiling would fail to happen because Horse returned itself to its pile in the course of resolving itself; (incidentally, this also prevents Horse from returning itself to the pile on its second play, but that doesn't matter since it is where it would go). So, for the same reason that Procession does not trash a Horse, GoT would not Exile it.

In the case of Horse, it's beneficial effect (+2 Cards/+1 Action) is not contingent on its movement, so you get that part twice. In contrast, Pillage's effect is conditional on it being trashed, so if you Throne Room it, you only get the effect once. Another example of this is Wish, which if you Thone Room gives you +2 Actions but only gains one card to your hand, since on the second play it cannot return itself to its pile (and that gaining, but not the +1 Action, is conditional on returning Wish to its pile).
« Last Edit: June 03, 2021, 12:17:26 pm by emtzalex »
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Xen3k

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #11: Acting Sideways
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2021, 12:24:26 pm »
0

Late entry

fika monsters motto: when in doubt, put Throne Room on it!



This is great for the opening.  You get to thin and you're guaranteed to be able to hit $5 before the first shuffle.  I would think that playing this on Coppers early in the game would be the optimal thing to do, rather than on your Actions (unless it's something like Doctor).

Looks fun, but it's probably quite game-warping.

Rules question - if you play this on a Horse, you play it twice and the Horse gets returned to its pile; but do you then still Exile it?  Procession doesn't trash Horses, so I'm assuming the same would happen here, but I wasn't sure.

If it specified Kingdom cards or non-Copper cards it would be less game breaking, but would lose the simple elegance it has right now.
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The Alchemist

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #11: Acting Sideways
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2021, 02:32:15 pm »
+3



Since the benefit of Acts over Action cards seems to be their reliability, being available to purchase at any time, I thought of what ideas I had for cards that would normally just be too swingy if they were normal Actions. Here is one of those. The availability of Refine means you can use it exactly when it would be most beneficial to you, without having to worry about having a card in hand. Considering limiting it to "If you have played no cards this turn", but it made the text far more crowded than it already is. If it's too monolithic then consider the limitation there (I'm free to modify the Acts rules, right?).
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fika monster

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #11: Acting Sideways
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2021, 03:28:34 pm »
0

Late entry

fika monsters motto: when in doubt, put Throne Room on it!



This is great for the opening.  You get to thin and you're guaranteed to be able to hit $5 before the first shuffle.  I would think that playing this on Coppers early in the game would be the optimal thing to do, rather than on your Actions (unless it's something like Doctor).

Looks fun, but it's probably quite game-warping.

Rules question - if you play this on a Horse, you play it twice and the Horse gets returned to its pile; but do you then still Exile it?  Procession doesn't trash Horses, so I'm assuming the same would happen here, but I wasn't sure.
My idea is that its like chapel: Its really strong and drastically changes the games it is in.
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #11: Acting Sideways
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2021, 03:42:45 pm »
0

Late entry

fika monsters motto: when in doubt, put Throne Room on it!



This is great for the opening.  You get to thin and you're guaranteed to be able to hit $5 before the first shuffle.  I would think that playing this on Coppers early in the game would be the optimal thing to do, rather than on your Actions (unless it's something like Doctor).

Looks fun, but it's probably quite game-warping.

Rules question - if you play this on a Horse, you play it twice and the Horse gets returned to its pile; but do you then still Exile it?  Procession doesn't trash Horses, so I'm assuming the same would happen here, but I wasn't sure.
My idea is that its like chapel: Its really strong and drastically changes the games it is in.

Chapel isn't nearly as automatic though. Enhance doesn't work on Victory Cards because othewise, this would be super automatic in a 4/3 opening. To be fair, this also works in a 5/2 opening, so it isn't as unfair.

(I'd honestly make it only work with Actions, as the interactions with Silver and Gold aren't very likeable either)
« Last Edit: June 03, 2021, 03:45:13 pm by grrgrrgrr »
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Timinou

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #11: Acting Sideways
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2021, 03:43:57 pm »
0



Since the benefit of Acts over Action cards seems to be their reliability, being available to purchase at any time, I thought of what ideas I had for cards that would normally just be too swingy if they were normal Actions. Here is one of those. The availability of Refine means you can use it exactly when it would be most beneficial to you, without having to worry about having a card in hand. Considering limiting it to "If you have played no cards this turn", but it made the text far more crowded than it already is. If it's too monolithic then consider the limitation there (I'm free to modify the Acts rules, right?).

This is also looks like a fun concept but I think it will gain Coffers too easily without the limitation you proposed.  Like Game of Thrones, this could be good in the opening (if you want to gain Coffers and Horses). 

« Last Edit: June 03, 2021, 04:01:44 pm by Timinou »
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spineflu

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #11: Acting Sideways
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2021, 04:00:01 pm »
+2



Since the benefit of Acts over Action cards seems to be their reliability, being available to purchase at any time, I thought of what ideas I had for cards that would normally just be too swingy if they were normal Actions. Here is one of those. The availability of Refine means you can use it exactly when it would be most beneficial to you, without having to worry about having a card in hand. Considering limiting it to "If you have played no cards this turn", but it made the text far more crowded than it already is. If it's too monolithic then consider the limitation there (I'm free to modify the Acts rules, right?).

This is also looks like a fun concept but I think it will gain Coffers too easily without the limitation you proposed.  Like Game of Thrones, this could be good in the opening if you want to gain Coffers and Horses.

I'd suggest dialing back by changing it to max one per type. "If you revealed a..."
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Aquila

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #11: Acting Sideways
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2021, 06:18:00 pm »
+3

Submissions closed. You may edit entries you've already entered (please show edits in a new post), but no new entries from now on.
It's late here now, I'll have the results up within the next 12 hours.
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fika monster

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #11: Acting Sideways
« Reply #40 on: June 04, 2021, 02:39:29 am »
+1

EDIT TO Game OF Thrones ACT

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The Alchemist

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #11: Acting Sideways
« Reply #41 on: June 04, 2021, 03:54:01 am »
0

Yes, for my submission consider the rules for Acts slightly modified. In my implementation, an Act can only be used as your *first* action played in a turn. You can think of it as choosing either to start your Action phase with the normal +1 Action, or to play the Act.
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Aquila

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #11: Acting Sideways
« Reply #42 on: June 04, 2021, 06:46:58 am »
+4

Time to call curtains on this contest.

The design rules we seem to have concluded here is: Acts should grant a weak but useful ability that has a light impact on the opening so it doesn't radically speed up the game and narrow the winning strategy possibilities down. They should bear a slight influence on which strategies in the kingdom are the better ones. grrgrrgrr questioned putting other types on them; it makes them much less simple to be sure, and all the entries avoided having any. Probably for the best.

To your entries:

Spineflu

Payload is easy to add to decks this game, but at the cost of a smaller hand each time. It can be a kind of newbie trap, each 3-card hand turn leading to thinking, 'the best thing I can do with this turn is gain another Gold'.
+: It can't simply be used each turn in a big money strategy as the odds of $8 hands are significantly reduced.
-: opening with one or two alongside other buys (at least on turn 1's 5 card hand) could be potentially too big a speedup.
Overview: Another way to open Golds would be a cool thing to add to a game, if it can possibly be balanced. I feel about middle ground here with the pros and cons.
Timinou

A useful engine ability, moving Treasures along to be drawn later.
+: Great use of the Act mechanic, it's there for when the hand is right but the need for +Actions makes it not trivial to use.
-: The way it will be played depends a lot on the presence of a Village in the game. Some players may feel including a Village with it is compulsory. True for most Acts, so this is minor and a sign that I can't really find any major bad point.
Overview: Safe and simple, a pleasant ability to have around.
emtzalex

Players can get one free copy of an Action to their Exile each turn, or a Treasure at the cost of a spent Action.
+: It can build, but not too fast. Also empty piles without getting unwanted gains or gainers in the deck; but because it's once per turn, not too quickly. With the Treasure playing in Action phase as well, that's 3 nifty functions.
-: Nothing serious, only that you don't actually export your cards away like the name may suggest.
Overview: I like this, its adding quite a lot to the game without being overpowering.
Xen3k

Like an Event in that you effectively pay $, but an Action is spent instead of a Buy, and use of Debt enables variable investment amount cleanly.
+: Lots of options varies the opening possibilities, potentially getting players thinking deeply right from the start.
-: The trash option feels pretty powerful; on a $4 opening turn going with trash and the Silver or Horse gain thins whilst helping economy at the same time. The $3 turn could correctly be trash as well.
Overview: There's potential in the premise, but the options could be changed a little. Possibly just remove the trashing.
mxdata

I probably wouldn't have the move to play area rule be general to all Acts anymore, since it doesn't quite work cleanly with multiple use ones. On here though moving it makes sense to remind the user of the Clean-up effect.
+: Some nice uses, like pivoting into different strategies or getting the balance of Villages just right.
-: It feels a tad weak. It could possibly have +1 Action.
Overview: It can be used fine, just maybe its glory moments are few and far between in all random games.
Mahowrath

A way to incorporate extra draw into the deck.
+: Needing 2 Actions to get any draw is probably balanced, so Villages and Villagers aren't doing too much and so there's no effect on the opening.
-: It depends heavily on the kingdom, and often it can do nothing. Not a big issue on a landscape card though.
Overview: niche but occasionally powerful, sometimes tricky to use and sometimes easy. It's quite good.
grrgrrgrr

+1 Villager Act was an idea I thought of pretty quickly, exactly like naitchman's outtake Immigrant. I guess it makes things rather easy, so having the discard cost adds interest.
+: If Copper junk needs to stay in the deck, Villagers are more desirable than Villages, so the cost is sensible. It gives an extra option to the opening.
-: Perhaps a bit weak? Again nothing that negative here, an Act shouldn't be too strong.
Overview: a useful little ability that gets more interesting when there are fewer Villages.
naitchman

An ability that can potentially get one out of a bad spot.
+: Weak but not useless.
-: How often will a hand of 1 be useful? 2 Cards from a hand of 3+ feels more viable while being weaker than Way of the Mole.
Overview: a nice premise, just feels a bit too weak to be worth the punt.
bootymancer

Expedition and 2 Debt after 2 Actions are used on this. Or a Journey token flip for other cards using the token.
+: The Journey token works well, with the interaction with other Journey token cards being safe.
-: Does it need the debt? It does help mitigate the power in a big money deck but it feels too much with the Actions needed as well.
Overview: some good ideas here, but not all together. Either the Journey token or some of the Debt could go.
mathdude

Actions on demand, but at the cost of free cards for the opponents. Another Act that could be moved into play for the end of turn reminder.
+: Simple and effective.
-: It could be swingy sometimes; if both players play the same deck, one could get more draw purely by the chance of terminal collisions.
Overview: the premise is great, and sometimes the decision to use it is interesting. I sense a little room for improvement, but it's by no means bad.
The Alchemist

Either play your turn as normal, or at the start of the Action phase ditch your whole hand for a batch of resources.
+: It's good that gained Horses will weaken using this.
-: With the format of Acts being used at the start of the Action phase only, whilst they can be made more powerful, they need to be extra careful around big money strategies and the opening. Here, something close to overpay for Coffers can take place, leading to very fast games where the only things you need to buy are Provinces and maybe a Silver or two.
Overview: A tempo setting card like Rebuild. I fear it's rather too fast and easy compared to it.
fika monster

Once per turn Throne and Exile.
+: Once per turn limits this from breaking the game like Donald's Throne-then-trash Way outtake did.
-: Strong, in that unlike Throne Room it's always lining up to its target and the target can be regained.
Overview: exciting to be sure, but likely makes things too fast.

Shortlist: Courier, Export, Arcane Conscription, Recruit, Lost Village, Game of Thrones.


Runners-up: Courier by Timinou, Lost Village by mathdude


Winner: Export by emtzalex

All the cards in the shortlist could be played with, I think, but Export adds the most interest overall whilst not appearing imbalanced. So congrats emtzalex!
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gambit05

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #11: Acting Sideways
« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2021, 08:42:01 am »
+2

Very nice assessment!

Acts look like an interesting mechanic. I almost submitted something for this contest round, but then I saw grrgrrgrr's Recruit, which is almost identical to the idea that came to my mind.

I have experimented quite a lot with Debt and thus I like the idea of Xen3k's Payoff. I had a Kingdom card with similar features. After some testing, the first option I removed was the trashing option, which turned out to be too much. I thought that the ultimate "Debt for abilities" card is something like Payoff. It is indeed interesting early in a game, but can be a bit annoying later on. Doing this as an Act (or Event) could solve that problem.

Somehow I missed emtzalex's entry, Export. I agree this looks very interesting. Timinou's Courier is interesting as well, and deserves to be a runner up.

Finally, I am glad to see that fika monster simplified their Game of Thrones. This looks much better.

Congratulation to emtzalex for the win and Timinou and mathdude for being runner-ups.
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emtzalex

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #11: Acting Sideways
« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2021, 12:03:29 pm »
0

Winner: Export by emtzalex

All the cards in the shortlist could be played with, I think, but Export adds the most interest overall whilst not appearing imbalanced. So congrats emtzalex!

Wow, thanks!!! I appreciate the judging and your feedback.

I will try to have the next contest up later today.
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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #11: Acting Sideways
« Reply #45 on: June 04, 2021, 02:54:04 pm »
0

Good judging! I appreciate the feedback on Payoff. I agree the trashing is very good early on, but not so much later when the debt is more cumbersome. Additionally, trashing the first two turns does delay buying cheap game warping cards which could make it the "wrong" choice. I will contemplate updating the design.
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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #11: Acting Sideways
« Reply #46 on: June 04, 2021, 03:56:37 pm »
0

good judgement. would GOT have scored a bit better if the action card was trashed instead of exiled?
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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #11: Acting Sideways
« Reply #47 on: September 19, 2021, 10:10:13 pm »
0

Hey Aquila: do Acts count as a card played? Asking for a conspirator.
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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #11: Acting Sideways
« Reply #48 on: September 20, 2021, 12:09:34 pm »
+2

Hey Aquila: do Acts count as a card played? Asking for a conspirator.

Not my mechanic, but it would be a very weird rules stretch to allow it to work with Conspirator. Conspirator only cares about Actions you've played; (and the general game rules make it clear that by "Actions" it means "action cards"). Acts aren't cards, just like Events, Ways, etc aren't cards.
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Aquila

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #11: Acting Sideways
« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2021, 04:42:58 am »
+1

Hey Aquila: do Acts count as a card played? Asking for a conspirator.
As Gendo said, Acts are not Actions, so they do nothing for Conspirator.

With Hire, I did say that it counts as a 'played Attack card' for Moats; that's the whole point of the Attack type of course. But, for breaching the rule that sideways cards are not 'cards', all it's achieving is being a pure attack. Other hypothetical Act Attacks would probably be also to keep within their low power cap. So, it's going to be a design flaw in most people's eyes, so Hire probably shouldn't exist.
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