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Author Topic: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia  (Read 98123 times)

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faust

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #1050 on: September 06, 2021, 03:51:24 am »

First thing of note:
Hypothetically, if we mass claim, then scum knows who is the doctor to roleblock and who is the tracker to shoot D1 and who is the vigilante to redirect onto the IC and we're screwed. We never get to catch scum out on their lying D1 claims because they know all of our powers and how to thwart them while we still know nothing real about them.

Mass claim is bad.
It seems that Masons would disproportionately benefit from a massclaim, yet both iguana and Glooble are arguing against it.

Hypothetically, if we mass claim, then scum knows who is the doctor to roleblock and who is the tracker to shoot D1 and who is the vigilante to redirect onto the IC and we're screwed. We never get to catch scum out on their lying D1 claims because they know all of our powers and how to thwart them while we still know nothing real about them.

Mass claim is bad.

A lot of assumptions (knowledge?) about what powers scum has here; probably means nothing, but I wanted to note it for later just in case. Besides that, I agree.

I think this post from Dylan is a little bit scummy. It seems disingenuous to me. Iguana is clearly using hypothetical examples to make a point, and implying that he's somehow letting his secret setup knowledge slip is... weird.
This kind of fits with the Mason claim, but it's nothing solid.

I'm never useful day 1. I usually can't develop scumreads this early.
this is just scummy.

Also there is the thing where Glooble votes pubby after pubby voting iguana. Which is... eh. Glooble indicated that it was role-related, and it does make a bit of sense with the Mason claim.

Faust has 9 posts on the topic, amounting to 326 words and 1870 characters.
Can you tell me which posts these are supposed to be?
Still mad about this. iguana never answered, and it's a mischaracterization of my posts.

Vote Count 1.3.MiX.2

WestCoastDidds (4): Galzria, iguanaiguana, Glooble, EFHW
2.71828.... (3): Swowl, Awaclus, MiX
Glooble (1): Dylan32
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
EFHW (1): 2.71828....
faust (1): mathdude
Galzria (1): faust

Not voting (1): WestCoastDidds
This is interesting. If iguana/Glooble are scum then Didds likely is not. If Didds is town... well, scum can really be anywhere in that vote count, they have 2 town wagons and can relax.
Oh on the other hand Glooble leaves that wagon immediately afterwards. I guess the evidence is not as strong as I'd hoped.

The whole Galz/e showdown at the end of D1 is unfortunately not very telling as it's tvt. It is notable that MiX/Galz try starting an alternate wagon on Didds and that goes nowhere. That makes Didds somewhat more scummy.

that is my D1 commentary.
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faust

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #1051 on: September 06, 2021, 04:29:13 am »

It's curious that pubby was pushing hard for his GID theory, but I don't think that means he couldn't be partnered with them. If scum!GI were already set up to claim Masons then that would work out fine.

The early Dylan wagon on D2 is me, Glooble, Didds, igauna. This is again a point against the GID theory, like they would all three vote in concert like that.

Galzria has a lot of quite mysterious posts in early D2, like he has some sort of additional info, but I don't see where that would come from.

IF the team is GPD, I'm in trouble tonight. It would mean all my reads are correct, and everyone town reads me. That would make me a huge liability for the scum team. Also, IF the team is GPD, MiX's reads are kind of lousy this game. Just sayin'. Right now MiX is not exactly projecting belief in GPD. Those two things would put me at a real risk of dying tonight. THEREFORE, I need to share some things with y'all now on the chance that I won't be able to do it later because I'll be dead.
This reasoning does not make sense from a Mason. If iguana is telling the truth then he could just share this with Glooble at night and he wouldn't need to worry about dying without being able to tell people about it.
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faust

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #1052 on: September 06, 2021, 04:41:36 am »

My concentration is fading. I have returned from my VLA sick, unfortunately. But as of right now I don't think Glooble/iguana should be treated as ICs.
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mathdude

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #1053 on: September 06, 2021, 08:29:53 am »

My concentration is fading. I have returned from my VLA sick, unfortunately. But as of right now I don't think Glooble/iguana should be treated as ICs.
I agree that the claimed Masons shouldn't be treated as ICs at this point.

I don't think it's best for me to claim just yet. I will do some rereading now, feel free to ski me in the order.
You are high on that claim list for a reason. I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't fully trust you this game. If you just wanted to reread and continue discussions on things before claiming, you could have asked Swowl to go ahead of you (rather than simply "skip", with no indication of when you should go). But right now it looks like you want time to check all the details of a fake claim to make sure all the details are accounted for.

I'm the interest of time, if Swowl gets online before faust next, I say go ahead and claim. And if faust is one before Swowl, you need to claim. If there are details of your role that make sense to wait to claim (such as targets), state that when claiming, but know that it will look scummy... but at least start the claim.
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WestCoastDidds

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #1054 on: September 06, 2021, 08:33:30 am »

I hope you feel better soon, faust. Vacation is the worst for being actually exhausting.

I’d like to see both Dylan and Swowl claim when they get here. I don’t see the order mattering much between (EFHW,Swowl, faust, Dylan). Even if some folks want to talk over iguana or glooble, those 4 were on MiX’s list so starting with them makes sense.

Ya’ll, I’m only being a bossy boots because of the short day. We need to do the claims in a timely manner if we want to have time to talk about them.

Pubby, I have something to say to you, but it needs to wait until after i claim, but the to;dr of it will be that you need to start considering the game from the perspective that Glooble/iguana/WCD is not the scum team. If you take away that conclusion, then where are you at. There aren’t enough town for us to be divided so we really need you to get on board. Even if it’s just a thought experiment, can you please explore the scenario that you’re wrong?
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Glooble

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #1055 on: September 06, 2021, 08:43:15 am »

If I had been awake enough to make my own claim order last night, I would have moved faust back, so I'm fine with him claiming after Dylan and Swowl.
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I think town!Glooble pointing to something as a scum tell and then shortly thereafter doing that thing is a lot more likely than scum!Glooble doing that.

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Dylan32

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #1056 on: September 06, 2021, 12:12:06 pm »

I have no problem claiming early. I'm the Coroner of Munchkinland, and I'm the deputy. If the cop is killed, I take up the mantle. Until then, I don't do anything.
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Forum Mafia Record - Wins: 14 - NM9, M97, RMM41, M99, M102, M104, M119, M126, RMM56, M133, M134, RMM58, RMM59, RMM61, RMM60; Losses 15 - RMM37, M89, M94, M95, M96, M100, RMM47 M109, M110, M120, M127, M129, M131, M132, M136; MVPs: 1 - NM9

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #1057 on: September 06, 2021, 12:12:24 pm »

Ok well as my claim has like no impact I have no problem with getting the ball rolling.

I am Oz. I am a Survivor.
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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #1058 on: September 06, 2021, 12:13:15 pm »

Ppe Dylan. Ha. That’s twice.
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iguanaiguana

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #1059 on: September 06, 2021, 12:46:20 pm »

@iguana & Glooble: Do you have daychat?

No
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Point iguana. Not that points really matter with a result, but still.
Igu is town or trying the hardest he ever has as scum.

iguanaiguana

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #1060 on: September 06, 2021, 01:05:58 pm »

Swowl is a survivor. That's probably really terrible. Swowl, do you intend to actually win with town?

Is there anything else to your role or are you claiming vanilla survivor?
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Point iguana. Not that points really matter with a result, but still.
Igu is town or trying the hardest he ever has as scum.

mathdude

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #1061 on: September 06, 2021, 01:10:31 pm »

I have no problem claiming early. I'm the Coroner of Munchkinland, and I'm the deputy. If the cop is killed, I take up the mantle. Until then, I don't do anything.

The coroner and the deputy, but only the deputy has a role (the "coroner" part does nothing?)
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mathdude

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #1062 on: September 06, 2021, 01:13:36 pm »

Ok well as my claim has like no impact I have no problem with getting the ball rolling.

I am Oz. I am a Survivor.

Assuming 3rd party Survivor? Yes, that might be bad.

Also,  "Oz" is a place, not a person. Did you miss part of your claim here? Like the Wizard of Oz? The Mayor of Oz? The Doorman of Oz? The one and only citizen of Oz?
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faust

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #1063 on: September 06, 2021, 01:17:21 pm »

Well well.

I am Scarecrow, and I am a Tracker.

N1 I targeted EFHW, she targeted iguana N1 (as claimed).
N2 I targeted Swowl. The result was that he targeted MiX.

Vote: Swowl
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iguanaiguana

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #1064 on: September 06, 2021, 01:21:11 pm »

First thing of note:
Hypothetically, if we mass claim, then scum knows who is the doctor to roleblock and who is the tracker to shoot D1 and who is the vigilante to redirect onto the IC and we're screwed. We never get to catch scum out on their lying D1 claims because they know all of our powers and how to thwart them while we still know nothing real about them.

Mass claim is bad.
It seems that Masons would disproportionately benefit from a massclaim, yet both iguana and Glooble are arguing against it.

From my perspective, I knew that my role has no active night action and that Glooble's role has no active night action. So mass claim would reveal a potentially small pool of active town PRs to scum... which they may be able to manipulate. Which is exactly what I said. So I guess you could say my role had some impact on my stance here. But of course every single player responded in a similar way regardless of their role.... so reading this as a point against me being a mason is a bit silly and honestly not very faust-like.

Quote
Faust has 9 posts on the topic, amounting to 326 words and 1870 characters.
Can you tell me which posts these are supposed to be?
Still mad about this. iguana never answered, and it's a mischaracterization of my posts.
I didn't answer because it took forever to find the posts, make what was to me an honest assessment of whether 75% or more of the post was talking about the mass claim idea, put them all in a word counter, and come up with the tally. And also, I found you towny on D1, so I wasn't even tallying it all up in order to cast shade on you. I was tallying it up because IIRC Didds had that Glooble came off scummier than faust in the mass claim discussion... which was scummy because it took up too much space in the thread. So I was making an effort to point out that Glooble hadn't actually talked about it very much and that you had actually talked about it more. When it was all said and done, your posts on the topic were individually shorter than Glooble's, which was reflected in the fact that even though you had 8 posts to Glooble's 3 (some of which were talking with Awaclus)... you didn't actually say that many more words than Glooble did. But I had done all the work... I had a case and a weak scumread on WCD... and I wanted to publish it to get a conversation going... so I did!

Also, it was a way for me to defend Glooble at the time using reasons and numbers and stuff which felt important because I was having a really hard time articulating why I thought Glooble was town because I just KNEW he was town.
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Point iguana. Not that points really matter with a result, but still.
Igu is town or trying the hardest he ever has as scum.

iguanaiguana

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #1065 on: September 06, 2021, 01:23:21 pm »

Well well.

I am Scarecrow, and I am a Tracker.

N1 I targeted EFHW, she targeted iguana N1 (as claimed).
N2 I targeted Swowl. The result was that he targeted MiX.

Vote: Swowl

Okay, interesting... So if you're lying... we hit a survivor who will totally screw us if we misexile today. Why would scum lie to implicate the survivor who would be just about able to help them win the game?

The scum!faust I know is too smart to tell that lie.
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Point iguana. Not that points really matter with a result, but still.
Igu is town or trying the hardest he ever has as scum.

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #1066 on: September 06, 2021, 01:23:34 pm »

Well well.

I am Scarecrow, and I am a Tracker.

N1 I targeted EFHW, she targeted iguana N1 (as claimed).
N2 I targeted Swowl. The result was that he targeted MiX.

Vote: Swowl

So we have our first obvious contradiction... either Swowl or faust is lying. Or there is some weird shenanigans going on (redirecting or whatever), which seems unlikely given the simpleness of roles so far.

Also, I knew you were Scarecrow... you had basically told us that at least twice already.
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iguanaiguana

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #1067 on: September 06, 2021, 01:27:38 pm »

Right now I am thinking I want to vote Swowl today but obviously we have more claims to come... I want a little time to think about it too.

I guess we should consider whether it would be safest NOT to finish the mass claim and just exile Swowl... That is something we should definitely consider. That COULD make it harder for scum to mess with the rest of our unclaimed PRs.
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Point iguana. Not that points really matter with a result, but still.
Igu is town or trying the hardest he ever has as scum.

mathdude

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #1068 on: September 06, 2021, 01:36:12 pm »

Right now I am thinking I want to vote Swowl today but obviously we have more claims to come... I want a little time to think about it too.

I guess we should consider whether it would be safest NOT to finish the mass claim and just exile Swowl... That is something we should definitely consider. That COULD make it harder for scum to mess with the rest of our unclaimed PRs.

Assuming EFHW is town (which is not necessarily the case), I think there's a little safety in continuing our claims. It would be nice to find out 2 or 3 contradictions today, rather than having to choose a side on just 1.
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iguanaiguana

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #1069 on: September 06, 2021, 01:41:29 pm »

Ok... Thought about it some more and we should probably not stop claiming
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Point iguana. Not that points really matter with a result, but still.
Igu is town or trying the hardest he ever has as scum.

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #1070 on: September 06, 2021, 02:38:28 pm »

K. Brunch right now. To keep things moving.

1. I am Oz, the great and powerful. Flavor text leads me to believe “man behind the curtain”.
2. I am capable of taking 0 actions this game. So faust did not track me.
Options are either
a) he is lying
b) re directed…. Which then was put back onto mix… so unless someone else targeted mix also (town that is) that doesn’t make sense.

3. I currently want to win with town because it appears faust is skum and skum doesn’t want my help lol.
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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #1071 on: September 06, 2021, 02:42:49 pm »

What kind of role could cause a tracker to find that a vanilla survivor took an action when they took no action?
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Point iguana. Not that points really matter with a result, but still.
Igu is town or trying the hardest he ever has as scum.

iguanaiguana

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #1072 on: September 06, 2021, 02:43:53 pm »

I guess if scum redirected town!faust onto the killer? Wouldn't that be pretty risky for scum to do?
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Point iguana. Not that points really matter with a result, but still.
Igu is town or trying the hardest he ever has as scum.

Dylan32

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #1073 on: September 06, 2021, 03:10:07 pm »

I have no problem claiming early. I'm the Coroner of Munchkinland, and I'm the deputy. If the cop is killed, I take up the mantle. Until then, I don't do anything.

The coroner and the deputy, but only the deputy has a role (the "coroner" part does nothing?)

Yeah, it's weird that coroner is a different role that I don't have, but the flavor is like since I was the first person to examine the body under the house and pronounce them really most sincerely dead, if something happens to the cop I would take up the task of investigating people.
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Forum Mafia Record - Wins: 14 - NM9, M97, RMM41, M99, M102, M104, M119, M126, RMM56, M133, M134, RMM58, RMM59, RMM61, RMM60; Losses 15 - RMM37, M89, M94, M95, M96, M100, RMM47 M109, M110, M120, M127, M129, M131, M132, M136; MVPs: 1 - NM9

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #1074 on: September 06, 2021, 03:13:50 pm »

I guess if scum redirected town!faust onto the killer? Wouldn't that be pretty risky for scum to do?

Could be wrong, but since we know the vig was gone, about the only time it wouldn't be good to redirect a townie onto scum would be if they happened to already be investigating scum, right? Like Doc targets town, moved to scum = safe scum + potentially frame doc for lying about target + doc isn't protecting possible scum target. Investigative roles targeting town redirected to scum frames the intended target. So that actually seems like not a bad play.
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Forum Mafia Record - Wins: 14 - NM9, M97, RMM41, M99, M102, M104, M119, M126, RMM56, M133, M134, RMM58, RMM59, RMM61, RMM60; Losses 15 - RMM37, M89, M94, M95, M96, M100, RMM47 M109, M110, M120, M127, M129, M131, M132, M136; MVPs: 1 - NM9
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