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Author Topic: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia  (Read 44800 times)

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WestCoastDidds

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #725 on: September 01, 2021, 08:40:00 pm »

It seems that Glooble wasnít super careful with his language choices, but I am following this train of thought. Generally, I think that kid of nonchalance from him isnít scummy in the way it might be for other folks.

EFHW generated quite a bit of content about it, though, which has increased her level of engagement, but Iím not sure how quality the enagement has been. I do think sheís asking good questions,,though.
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WestCoastDidds

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #726 on: September 01, 2021, 08:41:44 pm »

Deadline is tomorrowÖ Iím surprised we havenít seen more of pubby, mathdude, or Dylan.
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Glooble

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #727 on: September 01, 2021, 08:58:01 pm »

Thursday is just not a good deadline day for me. It's the one day a week I go into the office and then I have improv class which is usually starting right around deadline.
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I think town!Glooble pointing to something as a scum tell and then shortly thereafter doing that thing is a lot more likely than scum!Glooble doing that.

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Dylan32

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #728 on: September 01, 2021, 09:44:26 pm »

Ok, I haven't really said much, so I'm just going to go through all of D2 and respond to posts as I go without worrying about if the conversation has already moved past it, and hopefully it will help me actually organize my thoughts a bit.
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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #729 on: September 01, 2021, 09:48:24 pm »

I do not think we should Exile WCD today.

What are your thoughts on iguana?

I could talk iguana. Or Glooble. Either could be a good place to start today.

Whatís your 411 on iguana?

Not sure if "I could talk iguana" means I could/would vote there, or just they are a good person to talk about first. If it's the latter, this really just dodged and turned around mathdude's question asking specifically for Galz's thoughts back to mathdude.
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Dylan32

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #730 on: September 01, 2021, 09:49:05 pm »

I feel like we want to direct Galzria's shot tonight, If we don't exile him.

The e wagon was bad.

Vote: Dylan

This post is scummy coming from faust.
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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #731 on: September 01, 2021, 09:53:08 pm »

Good morning!

Scum team is Glooble, Iguana, Didds. Didds is the most obvious one.

There was some panic in the scum team early on with wagons around Glooble and Didds. They rallied to save each other, then hopped on the first alternative wagons. This is why all three voted late.

Vote: Didds

I doubt I'll be active much tomorrow BTW.

I find pubbyís claim that both Glooble and I are scum completely absurd. The odds of having two scum wagons that deep that early in the game would have to be astronomical. Absent that, that this was the first post and then outta here without any discussion of the night actions is annoying at best and anti town at worst.

As to the reasons pubby provided for his vote. PanicÖuhm no. I didnít feel panic. Perhaps he meant scrambling. But again, noÖ I wasnít scrambling. I was torn because I didít want to vote for e because I thought he was town. So, the question I wanted to know the answer to was it better to exile town or no exile. In the end it didnít matter, Iguana showed up and MiX hammered. If I was scum, why leave it to chance? Why not hammer? But the even better argument would be if the three of us were working together why would we collide to oust the hider instead of the vig? The big is far more dangerous to scum. That would have been the smarter play.

Vote Count 1.MiX
Galzria (5): faust, 2.71828...., WestCoastDidds, EFHW, Awaclus
2.71828.... (4): Swowl, Glooble, mathdude, Dylan32
WestCoastDidds (2): MiX, Galzria
Swowl (1): iguanaiguana
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
Not voting (0):

7 to exile. 3 hours to deadline.

What's the plan?

I can see a narrative for Glooble and iguana working in concert. But all three of us? That is in no way clear to me.  Iguana was pretty much voting for me all day yesterday, which also doesnít seem scum partnery.

Iguana definitely looked scrambled D1, but never having played with him before, I wanted to see it through the day. No point in starting wagons on 2 of them though... one at a time for now.

Vote: Didds

But this is even more interesting to me! Math is saying ďyes! Thatís it! Iguana looked like he was scrambling so Iíll vote for WCD!Ē How the heck does that follow. Math isnít scum, but that logic is severely lacking.


Didds says the logic is severely lacking, but mathdude clearly explained the logic of not wanting to start two different wagons when the theory says Didds and iguana are partners anyway.
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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #732 on: September 01, 2021, 10:00:35 pm »

I'm having to get going again soon here before I do all the massive amount of work I want to do on this day. But before I get going, I just want to point out something that struck me as a really scummy post.

Galzria, can you claim?

I am the Tin Man.

Do you want me to claim my PR?

Most likely, yes.

I am Dorothyís protector by flavor provided.

I am a 2-shot Vig.

I donít shoot as Vig, so Iím essentially a VT, which is why my Exile is better than No Exile as it generates information at the very least while losing a PR that wonít be used.

That said, if I *did* shoot i couldíve helped resolv the e situation (if I understand correctly) if he didnít get exiled which is why I advocated going back to WCD here.

So here's a few things, some of them are speculative and not all of these speculations are the type that usually get much credence around here, but, they are compelling to me and so I need to share them.

1) Galz claims tin man. If I am modding this game, I am going to give at least 1 of tin man, scarecrow, or lion to scum as a fake claim. When Dorothy is already IC, you don't just give all three of tin man, scarecrow and lion to town. That would hurt scum, so you give them a strong fake claim of one of those. Therefore, since the lion has already flipped town, tin man is a suspicious claim. Hell, to the town!scarecrow, if there is one, this should be a hella suspicious claim.

2) Galz claims his flavor indicates he is 'the protector of dorothy,' but his role is not a protective role. Once again, hella suspicious. To me, it indicates that Galzria could be scum, and he was given a fake claim of "tin man, protector of Dorothy" with an actual protective ability for a fakeclaim.... THEN... he decided to claim 2-shot vig instead because 2-shot vig claim worked better for his scum plan. ALSO, we've already seen a protective town role flip in the jailkeeper flip. ALSO... I will go as far as to say that my role flavor text does make poetic sense. So I know that Joth writes flavor text that makes poetic sense for at least some roles. So for Galz's to be all funky like that "protector of Dorothy whose job is to shoot people"... hella suspicous.

3)Also... why the hell would the tin man be a 2-shot vig? Tin man don't got no gun!! Tin man off looking for his HEART. That's another thing that does not make poetic sense about Galz's claim.

4) Finally, as noted, Galz claiming 2-shot vig is just suspicious in general. Its a convenient claim. It gives him license to kill as scum without tracker or watcher seeing it. And tying it all in with his established no-shoot meta is convenient. Also, only one death last night.

Okay, that's all for now. Please consider it!!!

I don't really like basing a case so much on speculation about flavor writing. Like, it might not be wrong, but there's not much we can do with it since you aren't supposed to directly quote from your QT. I vaguely remember a later post where Galz describes it slightly differently and iguana calls it out, I think, which is rough because we aren't supposed to directly quote from any QTs, so I wouldn't really expect someone to use the exact same wording repeatedly when describing their flavor from post to post. If that didn't actually happen, I retract this point, but I think it did.
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Dylan32

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #733 on: September 01, 2021, 10:04:56 pm »

Short break, then I'll be back and continue.
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MiX

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #734 on: September 01, 2021, 10:42:55 pm »

MiX, did you ever say what you thought was towny about mathdude?

No.

I'm the last person you should be asking questions towards.
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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #735 on: September 01, 2021, 11:01:29 pm »

I'm clearly not going to finish my VCA today. I might not finish it in time for EoD.

I will be here for deadline, but probably in my sleep-fu state that won't actually be helpful.


Vote Count 2.MiX

Dylan32 (3): faust, WestCoastDidds, iguanaiguana (L-2)
pubby (2): EFHW, Glooble,
WestCoastDidds (1): pubby
EFHW (1): MiX
Mathdude (1): Swowl
Glooble (1): Galzria

Not voting (2): Dylan32, mathdude


I would love reasons for everyone to be voting where they're voting, regardless if they've said it before. If you have, you can simply write a tl;dr and link the post that has the full explanation.

I'll start: I think no one has looked at EFHW, and I can't find scum, so it would make sense that I haven't looked at scum yet, which would make EFHW scum. Also they can easily flip today if town is truly scumreading them.
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Dylan32

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #736 on: September 01, 2021, 11:39:38 pm »

Ok, I read a lot of pubby's posts in games that he's played. Good news, I like pubby a lot better now! I guess because I read some of his posts where he wasn't just nonstop tunneling me. I've never seen pubby play like he's playing in this current game. Also, he's never been scum before (that I could find) outside of one beer themed bastard game. Notably, in the dwarf bastard game that just finished, he had really good reads (he kept saying that Galz/Didds/Awa was the team.. Galz/Didds was correct) but he also second guessed himself a lot and ended up voting outside of his correct guess fequently. I've also seen Pubby in several games get heated/emotional about things... which is not something I'm seeing here at all. In this game, he's been quite level headed and cool with his pronouncements.

Yeah, I really like

Vote: Pubby

Is it possible a game with a 2/3 team call made him more confident in his reads and less likely to stray outside of it with his votes?
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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #737 on: September 02, 2021, 12:17:50 am »

I feel like we want to direct Galzria's shot tonight, If we don't exile him.

The e wagon was bad.

Vote: Dylan

This post is scummy.

"The e wagon was bad" is a combination of "Well that sucked" and "I was on a different wagon than a town flip, so shame on all of you". They're both the style of thing more commonly expressed by scum than town.

The first part suggesting my shot be directed tonight is also scummy. But mostly because faust lays it out there to see if it'll start a conversation, but shows no signs of following up with the idea when nobody jumps on it.

Oh, yeah, I agree. The directing the shot was what stuck out to me.
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Dylan32

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #738 on: September 02, 2021, 12:19:42 am »

I'm having to get going again soon here before I do all the massive amount of work I want to do on this day. But before I get going, I just want to point out something that struck me as a really scummy post.

Galzria, can you claim?

I am the Tin Man.

Do you want me to claim my PR?

Most likely, yes.

I am Dorothyís protector by flavor provided.

I am a 2-shot Vig.

I donít shoot as Vig, so Iím essentially a VT, which is why my Exile is better than No Exile as it generates information at the very least while losing a PR that wonít be used.

That said, if I *did* shoot i couldíve helped resolv the e situation (if I understand correctly) if he didnít get exiled which is why I advocated going back to WCD here.

So here's a few things, some of them are speculative and not all of these speculations are the type that usually get much credence around here, but, they are compelling to me and so I need to share them.

1) Galz claims tin man. If I am modding this game, I am going to give at least 1 of tin man, scarecrow, or lion to scum as a fake claim. When Dorothy is already IC, you don't just give all three of tin man, scarecrow and lion to town. That would hurt scum, so you give them a strong fake claim of one of those. Therefore, since the lion has already flipped town, tin man is a suspicious claim. Hell, to the town!scarecrow, if there is one, this should be a hella suspicious claim.

2) Galz claims his flavor indicates he is 'the protector of dorothy,' but his role is not a protective role. Once again, hella suspicious. To me, it indicates that Galzria could be scum, and he was given a fake claim of "tin man, protector of Dorothy" with an actual protective ability for a fakeclaim.... THEN... he decided to claim 2-shot vig instead because 2-shot vig claim worked better for his scum plan. ALSO, we've already seen a protective town role flip in the jailkeeper flip. ALSO... I will go as far as to say that my role flavor text does make poetic sense. So I know that Joth writes flavor text that makes poetic sense for at least some roles. So for Galz's to be all funky like that "protector of Dorothy whose job is to shoot people"... hella suspicous.

3)Also... why the hell would the tin man be a 2-shot vig? Tin man don't got no gun!! Tin man off looking for his HEART. That's another thing that does not make poetic sense about Galz's claim.

4) Finally, as noted, Galz claiming 2-shot vig is just suspicious in general. Its a convenient claim. It gives him license to kill as scum without tracker or watcher seeing it. And tying it all in with his established no-shoot meta is convenient. Also, only one death last night.

Okay, that's all for now. Please consider it!!!

This is an incredibly bad and scummy argument, and it is beyond ridiculous that faust hasn't called iguana out over this.

Iguana is arguing that my claim is scummy based almost entirely on "guess the mod".

1) It in no way would hurt scum if all three were town (if all three are even in the game), because any individual player does not know the alignment of any other player (save MiX). And this line of thinking is exceptionally scummy if all three ARE in the game and ARE town, because if I end up being exiled here, which is entirely possible today, you've pre-lined up the Scarecrow to be unable to claim safely down the line if they are also town (which if you were scum, you would know).

2) I don't know what to tell you. I'm Dorothy's friend, companion and protector. Like you said, there's already been 1.5 flipped protective roles, and who knows if more exist? What I do know is that my role is Vig, and that no player counter claimed me and I didn't die last night (which if I was lying and there was a town Vig in the game, they should've shot me last night).

3) I do not have guns, no. I have a wood-axe. It's for more than cutting lumber.

4) The claim in no way gives me "license to kill" without being tracked or watched. If I'm lying scum, there's no way I'm a Vig. If I'm tracked to a player and that player doesn't die, THAT's "hella suspicious". And if I'm tracked to a player and they DO die... but there's only one death that night (or again on future nights), that's ALSO "hella suspicious". And a Watcher would be exactly the same. If I'm seen targeting somebody but that player doesn't die... well, you get the idea.

4a) There was only one kill last night. This is correct. I did not shoot. The last post on the topic of shooting that I made yesterday before the exile was this:

Well that history makes that claim stupidly convenient.

All in favor of just exiling Galzria?

Galzria, if you live today, you have to shoot. And you should probably not shoot e. If you're already saying you're not going to do that, then we should just exile you as you won't be able to confirm your role.

Itís only convenient now that I had to claim it publicly 🙄

And yes, I will shoot now that itís public - but there are many factors that can prevent my shot given my role is public knowledge to scum.

Honestly, best option is probably to Exile me.

If was going to draw a scum RB, then if I shot or not didn't matter. But there are far worse potential PR's scum could have. Bus Driver or Redirector both could've been disastrous. Given that my claim is 100% accurately known to scum, the last thing I wanted to give them was the power to manipulate another shot.

Shooting as a vig that is unknown to scum is already a generally bad idea. Shooting as a vig that scum knows about is foolish.

For the record, had I decided to shoot, this was the list of people I was looking at (in no particular order, because I didn't go back and do the full re-reads on each that I would've done if i was shooting. These were just the people I thought came off looking scummiest following the end of day yesterday):

math, iguana, Glooble, Efoo, pubby

Hadn't really thought the iguana flavor case was scummy, but this does make sense how that would come from scum instead of town.
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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #739 on: September 02, 2021, 12:26:20 am »

I'll retract most of my argument about Galz's claim being scummy. I think I overdid it.

1) I looked up about whether the tin man has any weapon and found he carries an axe. I did that in between posting my original argument and when Galz posted his thing.

2) His thing about how scarecrow/tin man/lion could all be town is true. I mean, as the mod, I'd still be very tempted to give one of those to scum for sake of balance but it's not a good reason to vote for any of them. I assent to that.

3) I'm starting to understand how claiming 2-shot vig is a tricky thing to do D1 as scum when you don't know what kind of investigative roles are around. So maybe 2-shot vig is not on its face the scummiest claim. That being said, I can't give Galz town points for the claim either. He has a long and storied history of making super bold fakeclaims as scum and then justifying them throughout the game until scum wins. It's basically his favorite thing to do.

I won't retract this part:

It is scummy to claim to be the tin man, protector of Dorothy, but then not claim a protective role. It is something that could happen if you are scum, and are given a protective role as a fakeclaim, then choose to claim a different sort of role instead on your own initiative without editing the flavor.

Extreme example: If Galz claimed "I am Groot, guardian of Dorothy" we should exile Galz. He just claimed to be Groot... who isn't in the wizard of oz. He probably altered the flavor of his role because he didn't like his fakeclaim. The purpose of this example is just to show that someone can make a bad flavor claim and that flavor can be the basis for choosing to exile someone.

Less extreme example: If Galz claimed... "I am Toto, the observer of Dorothy. My power is that I am a bodyguard." We...should exile Galz! His flavor would indicate he should have an investigative type of role... but his powers is not investigative. The powers do not match the flavor, a cue that Galz made an alteration to his mod-provided stuff. Town does not alter their claim... scum does.


So, my argument is just that. Galz's claim of powers does not match his claim of flavor, and it is scummy.

Finally, this is a bit scummy to me too:

-snip-
2) I don't know what to tell you. I'm Dorothy's friend, companion and protector.

Before, he was 'protector of Dorothy.' Now, he's 'friend, companion and protector." To me, Galz is trying to brush off here the one part of my argument that actually held water because he knows he can refute everything else I said. And he's also trying to muddy the fact that earlier in the game he claimed to be "protector of Dorothy."

To argue by way of example, the Secret Service snipers on top of the white house are the President's protectors and their job is absolutely to shoot threats to the President, just to give one real-world case, so an offensive/neutralize the threat "protector" is not at all absurd or a contradiction like you seem to think it is.

This is also where I think the not directly quoting the QT comes into play. Idk if that is what Galz was doing, and you might not actually be wrong, but I just think you are reading a lot into flavor that just isn't sound.
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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #740 on: September 02, 2021, 12:27:48 am »

Also also,

if Galz is some sort of passive role like Godfather or 1-shot BP scum, he totally can claim 2-shot vig and then just never shoot because he can pass the factional kill off to his scumbuddies and twiddle his thumbs at night. So it's not like 2-shot vig is exonerating in the least.

Anyone can claim anything then, how is this important?

I claim a 3-shot Strongman Vigilante that roleblocks the target and also protects them from Trackers, Watchers and any actions taken by ninjas. But I won't use it.

VCA done. My work is a little on fire so I will have to type it out later. But I end at

Vote: Mathdude


Math is town.

Dylan is scum.

MiX is reading me incorrectly. He must be town. :p
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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #741 on: September 02, 2021, 12:49:43 am »

Good gravyÖ going back to work on campus after 16ish months away is sooooo hard. The commute alone is killing me.

Apologies for not being more present. Glooble is right, with deadline just two days away we canít afford to stall.

Iím done being made at pubby for calling me a liar

Vote: Dylan

Mostly for his placement on the e wagon, but also because I trust faust.

People keep saying my placement on the wagon was scummy, but no matter which of the two wagons I joined would have been X-1 (iirc). So if Galz is scum, then sure, I can agree from a neutral position it would look scummy, but like I've said before, A) I had a slightly bigger scumread on e and B) losing a hider is nowhere near as bad as losing a town vig if we were wrong (neither would be too bad compared to forcing a 3rd party, so see A again).
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Forum Mafia Record - Wins: 14 - NM9, M97, RMM41, M99, M102, M104, M119, M126, RMM56, M133, M134, RMM58, RMM59, RMM61, RMM60; Losses 15 - RMM37, M89, M94, M95, M96, M100, RMM47 M109, M110, M120, M127, M129, M131, M132, M136; MVPs: 1 - NM9

faust

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #742 on: September 02, 2021, 02:11:45 am »

Not sure how much I like my Dylan vote right now. But my alternative would be Galzria, and that doesn't seem to be happening right now.
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Dylan32

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #743 on: September 02, 2021, 03:28:42 am »

I was about to write a scum-to-chum list, but I feel like my brain is just sorting high-info to low-info flips, which is nice if there's overlap on the high-info/scum categories, but maybe this is just because I'm up way too late to be thinking.

I think my scum categoty would include Glooble, pubby, faust.
Town is IC, iguana (just realized I didn't address GPD, which--while wrong--at least seemed like there was some real scumhunting in there), maybe Galz based moreso on some stuff today.
I still have no idea how to read EFHW. Like, we've been in quite a few games together, and yet in my mind you always just kind of seem the same and I haven't picked out any differences in how you play either side. Of course some of that might be that most of the games I've played recently I've not been town, so I haven't actually had to try to read you very often, so this is different. Mentally swowl and mathdude just are off my radar right now. I know they've done things, but I'm just drawing a blank trying to think of specifics here. If there was a point to be made about wagon positioning D1 on e, I guess maybe mathdude could have been scum on there. I don't think I would want to exile Didds today, because as has been said, they're on the easier side to read later in the game; but not just for the negative side, like, they're pretty good at scumhunting late game too if memory serves. In one of the last non-bsg games where I was scum and it was Didds, EFHW, scum!joth, and scum!me and I forget the last townie, I was really afraid of Didds going into the last day because you seemed to have my number the last couple game days and I really worried about you being able to convince EFHW and whoever the other person was (sorry if you are here and I can't remember you!!) that it was actually me.

Vote: Glooble
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Forum Mafia Record - Wins: 14 - NM9, M97, RMM41, M99, M102, M104, M119, M126, RMM56, M133, M134, RMM58, RMM59, RMM61, RMM60; Losses 15 - RMM37, M89, M94, M95, M96, M100, RMM47 M109, M110, M120, M127, M129, M131, M132, M136; MVPs: 1 - NM9

Dylan32

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #744 on: September 02, 2021, 03:30:04 am »

Ok, my timezone is server time, so I need to be asleep a few hours ago. I will be on occasionally through the day tomorrow, hopefully including (but not sure) right around the deadline.
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Forum Mafia Record - Wins: 14 - NM9, M97, RMM41, M99, M102, M104, M119, M126, RMM56, M133, M134, RMM58, RMM59, RMM61, RMM60; Losses 15 - RMM37, M89, M94, M95, M96, M100, RMM47 M109, M110, M120, M127, M129, M131, M132, M136; MVPs: 1 - NM9

Swowl

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #745 on: September 02, 2021, 03:59:04 am »

Good gravyÖ going back to work on campus after 16ish months away is sooooo hard. The commute alone is killing me.

Apologies for not being more present. Glooble is right, with deadline just two days away we canít afford to stall.

Iím done being made at pubby for calling me a liar

Vote: Dylan

Mostly for his placement on the e wagon, but also because I trust faust.

People keep saying my placement on the wagon was scummy, but no matter which of the two wagons I joined would have been X-1 (iirc). So if Galz is scum, then sure, I can agree from a neutral position it would look scummy, but like I've said before, A) I had a slightly bigger scumread on e and B) losing a hider is nowhere near as bad as losing a town vig if we were wrong (neither would be too bad compared to forcing a 3rd party, so see A again).

So I was doing a Math vs Dylan re read and I was actually giving the bolded part above a LOT of credit. Makes sense. If dylan, or anyone is skum after there are both claims... then why go for E! over Galz? I will answer. Either Galz is skum with the person in question that goes for E! or the person going for E! over galz legit believes in what they are saying. Which is cool and fair. And there is nothing wrong with it at all. But you know, dylan said IIRC so I went ahead and read the damn thread...

Here is the thing.... Here is vote count 1.5, which is Post #417

Vote Count 1.5

2.71828.... (6): Swowl, Awaclus, Glooble, mathdude, Galzria, Dylan32 (L-1)
Galzria (5): faust, 2.71828...., WestCoastDidds, MiX, EFHW (L-2)
Swowl (1): iguanaiguana
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
Not voting (0)

Cool. The whole "I chose E! over Galz because of claim" shit, makes no sense. Because... Galz claims here - in post #457


Galzria, can you claim?

I am the Tin Man.

Do you want me to claim my PR?

Most likely, yes.

I am Dorothyís protector by flavor provided.

I am a 2-shot Vig.

I donít shoot as Vig, so Iím essentially a VT, which is why my Exile is better than No Exile as it generates information at the very least while losing a PR that wonít be used.

That said, if I *did* shoot i couldíve helped resolv the e situation (if I understand correctly) if he didnít get exiled which is why I advocated going back to WCD here.

That may seem small. But when you are town, you don't have to make up reasons you think people are town vs skum. You remember that. Especially something as big as a claim. Dylan absolutely DID NOT know that Galz was a vig prior to the vote being placed on E!. The vote on E! was there first. That is a made up reason and that is skummy af.

Vote: Dylan

That is L2 not L1, MiX count most recent is wrong.

PPE: 2
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real good. Thatís how
Town:  14 wins, 14 losses (1 MVP)
Skum: 7 wins, 7 losses (1 MVP)
3-Party: 4 wins, 1 loss

MiX

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #746 on: September 02, 2021, 05:14:40 am »

Not sure how much I like my Dylan vote right now. But my alternative would be Galzria, and that doesn't seem to be happening right now.

Vote for your scumreads.
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MiX

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #747 on: September 02, 2021, 05:51:23 am »

I was about to write a scum-to-chum list, but I feel like my brain is just sorting high-info to low-info flips, which is nice if there's overlap on the high-info/scum categories, but maybe this is just because I'm up way too late to be thinking.

I think my scum categoty would include Glooble, pubby, faust.
Town is IC, iguana (just realized I didn't address GPD, which--while wrong--at least seemed like there was some real scumhunting in there), maybe Galz based moreso on some stuff today.
I still have no idea how to read EFHW. Like, we've been in quite a few games together, and yet in my mind you always just kind of seem the same and I haven't picked out any differences in how you play either side. Of course some of that might be that most of the games I've played recently I've not been town, so I haven't actually had to try to read you very often, so this is different. Mentally swowl and mathdude just are off my radar right now. I know they've done things, but I'm just drawing a blank trying to think of specifics here. If there was a point to be made about wagon positioning D1 on e, I guess maybe mathdude could have been scum on there. I don't think I would want to exile Didds today, because as has been said, they're on the easier side to read later in the game; but not just for the negative side, like, they're pretty good at scumhunting late game too if memory serves. In one of the last non-bsg games where I was scum and it was Didds, EFHW, scum!joth, and scum!me and I forget the last townie, I was really afraid of Didds going into the last day because you seemed to have my number the last couple game days and I really worried about you being able to convince EFHW and whoever the other person was (sorry if you are here and I can't remember you!!) that it was actually me.

Vote: Glooble

Can you talk about

I think my scum categoty would include Glooble, pubby, faust.

This instead?

Also how can you say GPD's wrong when you have GPF.

This is also the best time to say that I can't believe pubby didn't go for the DIG terminology instead, and that I townread him for it.
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MiX

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #748 on: September 02, 2021, 05:58:39 am »

People keep saying my placement on the wagon was scummy, but no matter which of the two wagons I joined would have been X-1 (iirc). So if Galz is scum, then sure, I can agree from a neutral position it would look scummy, but like I've said before, A) I had a slightly bigger scumread on e and B) losing a hider is nowhere near as bad as losing a town vig if we were wrong (neither would be too bad compared to forcing a 3rd party, so see A again).

So I was doing a Math vs Dylan re read and I was actually giving the bolded part above a LOT of credit. Makes sense. If dylan, or anyone is skum after there are both claims... then why go for E! over Galz? I will answer. Either Galz is skum with the person in question that goes for E! or the person going for E! over galz legit believes in what they are saying. Which is cool and fair. And there is nothing wrong with it at all. But you know, dylan said IIRC so I went ahead and read the damn thread...

Here is the thing.... Here is vote count 1.5, which is Post #417

Vote Count 1.5

2.71828.... (6): Swowl, Awaclus, Glooble, mathdude, Galzria, Dylan32 (L-1)
Galzria (5): faust, 2.71828...., WestCoastDidds, MiX, EFHW (L-2)
Swowl (1): iguanaiguana
iguanaiguana (1): pubby
Not voting (0)

Cool. The whole "I chose E! over Galz because of claim" shit, makes no sense. Because... Galz claims here - in post #457

Dylan did not actually say that he voted e because "losing a hider is nowhere near as bad as losing a town vig if we were wrong". He voted e because he "had a slightly bigger scumread on e". He didn't move his vote because of the claims.

I'm also suspicious that you didn't investigate that e himself hadn't claimed when Dylan voted. Did you actually reread the game?
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faust

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #749 on: September 02, 2021, 08:19:06 am »

Vote: Swowl
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