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Author Topic: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia  (Read 98071 times)

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faust

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #175 on: August 24, 2021, 08:37:16 am »


One might counter this by saying "well town should just answer without regard for their role". Which is saying, town should be disingenuous and do the thing that scum is also trying to do. This causes town to behave in a scum-like manner and thus muddies the water for scumhunting.

I don't personally think my opinion on a particular strategy is affected in anyway whatsoever by my current role. I would always think about it in the context of any roles that could theoretically be in the game, and I would expect the same of any town player. I don't see how that's disingenuous.
Seems strange not to take knowledge into account. You could have a role that says "if you target the Tracker, town wins". Surely that would influence your opinion on claiming. That is a ridiculously extreme example, but any role has a preference on knowing/not knowing roles to a lesser extent. If you don't take into account the knowledge that you have then you're not playing optimally.
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Glooble

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #176 on: August 24, 2021, 09:11:45 am »


One might counter this by saying "well town should just answer without regard for their role". Which is saying, town should be disingenuous and do the thing that scum is also trying to do. This causes town to behave in a scum-like manner and thus muddies the water for scumhunting.

I don't personally think my opinion on a particular strategy is affected in anyway whatsoever by my current role. I would always think about it in the context of any roles that could theoretically be in the game, and I would expect the same of any town player. I don't see how that's disingenuous.
Seems strange not to take knowledge into account. You could have a role that says "if you target the Tracker, town wins". Surely that would influence your opinion on claiming. That is a ridiculously extreme example, but any role has a preference on knowing/not knowing roles to a lesser extent. If you don't take into account the knowledge that you have then you're not playing optimally.

I disagree. Even if I know that my own role benefits from or suffers from a mass claim, I don't know how scum are going to benefit or how that info might hurt other townies. I think considering your own role without thinking about what other roles might be in the game isn't playing optimally.

But whatever. We play the game differently, that's fine. You've convinced me that your objection wasn't alignment-indicative.
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I think town!Glooble pointing to something as a scum tell and then shortly thereafter doing that thing is a lot more likely than scum!Glooble doing that.

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faust

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #177 on: August 24, 2021, 10:04:07 am »

Yeah let's move on.

I've noticed that Dylan has also chimed in on the issue. Hey Dylan, do you feel like also sharing some reads? Do you think Glooble is scummy for voting for me?
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Dylan32

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #178 on: August 24, 2021, 12:03:03 pm »


One might counter this by saying "well town should just answer without regard for their role". Which is saying, town should be disingenuous and do the thing that scum is also trying to do. This causes town to behave in a scum-like manner and thus muddies the water for scumhunting.

I don't personally think my opinion on a particular strategy is affected in anyway whatsoever by my current role. I would always think about it in the context of any roles that could theoretically be in the game, and I would expect the same of any town player. I don't see how that's disingenuous.
Seems strange not to take knowledge into account. You could have a role that says "if you target the Tracker, town wins". Surely that would influence your opinion on claiming. That is a ridiculously extreme example, but any role has a preference on knowing/not knowing roles to a lesser extent. If you don't take into account the knowledge that you have then you're not playing optimally.

I disagree. Even if I know that my own role benefits from or suffers from a mass claim, I don't know how scum are going to benefit or how that info might hurt other townies. I think considering your own role without thinking about what other roles might be in the game isn't playing optimally.

But whatever. We play the game differently, that's fine. You've convinced me that your objection wasn't alignment-indicative.

Yeah let's move on.

I've noticed that Dylan has also chimed in on the issue. Hey Dylan, do you feel like also sharing some reads? Do you think Glooble is scummy for voting for me?

I mean, yeah, I had responded to Glooble not getting how scum could benefit first but tried to leave it vague, but since you (faust) and Awaclus already went more in depth, I will too since it seems like Glooble is not getting why this whole thing could be bad. Glooble, it doesn't really have anything to do with what other roles other people might have, its that on average people with roles that would be worse to reveal D1 (like investigative roles and stuff) are more likely to be more strongly against the mass claim, while people with more expendable roles or ones that could actually benefit from being claimed and not countered early (I guess like masons could fit here) might be more open to the idea, even if they don't explicitly support it. Scum could then take people's responses and make more informed guesses about which bucket people might be in when prioritizing the NK and other actions.

So then you are left with town, in order to not leak info like this, being forced to respond completely independently of their role, which--like faust said in his first response to you--would be disingenuous. That's why it's bad; it has nothing to do with your playstyle and how you think as town, but it has everything to do with giving scum potentially useful information.

To faust's question: I don't really think the vote for you was scummy on it's own, but I am leaning scum on Glooble just from the rest of the interaction. I'm sitting down to work right now, so I don't have time to click back to remind myself who said it, but I actually didn't hate the idea that someone that basically copied my opening comment of relief to have IC!MiX could have been scum seeing that as something easy and safe to copy. I'll have more thoughts later.
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MiX

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #179 on: August 24, 2021, 12:13:21 pm »

Let it be known that scum did not read the thread to see if it was safe to say they were relieved to see me as the IC. They simply already know if it's in their wheelhouse as town or not, intrinsically, from their interactions with me in the past.

If anything, it simply replaced what their first post would be had they been town. But that was decided pre-reading the thread.
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iguanaiguana

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #180 on: August 24, 2021, 12:18:55 pm »

Vote: Mathdude
I want to see some wagons and the days are short. Plus I just looked through his posts and there's nothing really there... yet.

I don't know Mathdude's meta at all. But I have a vague feeling from skimming some recent games that he's a common D1 mislynch. Am I right or wrong?
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Igu is town or trying the hardest he ever has as scum.

MiX

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #181 on: August 24, 2021, 12:21:29 pm »

Vote: Mathdude
I want to see some wagons and the days are short. Plus I just looked through his posts and there's nothing really there... yet.

I don't know Mathdude's meta at all. But I have a vague feeling from skimming some recent games that he's a common D1 mislynch. Am I right or wrong?

That is right.

So why would you vote for him?
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iguanaiguana

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #182 on: August 24, 2021, 12:41:00 pm »

Vote: Mathdude
I want to see some wagons and the days are short. Plus I just looked through his posts and there's nothing really there... yet.

I don't know Mathdude's meta at all. But I have a vague feeling from skimming some recent games that he's a common D1 mislynch. Am I right or wrong?

That is right.

So why would you vote for him?

Hard to choose a vote. I feel that scum is trying to avoid anyone getting more than 1 or 2 votes... taking advantage of the fact that townies are not on the same page about things. I feel that scum don't want wagons D1 that town can look at later and solve the game using. Therefore I want to vote for someone that someone else who is trying hard feels is a good vote as well... especially because no one is interested to join me on voting Awaclus.

In short, I have several weakish town reads, or at least pro town reads. Faust is one of those, mathdude is not one of those... and I'm sheeping faust.

Here's another question. I assume faust knows that Mathdude is a common D1 mislynch. So why would he go there? Isn't faust still considered to be a quite good player?
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Igu is town or trying the hardest he ever has as scum.

EFHW

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #183 on: August 24, 2021, 12:56:53 pm »

I was trusting town!e to know what not to say, while challenging a possible scum!e to commit himself further. There was a spate of games some years back where it seemed that people were role-slipping left and right. I think we had a bunch of inexperienced players then, and e does not fit that description.
This post has the same underlying issue that I pointed out above. Basically you're asking town!e to be a bit disingenuous, and thus the answer he gives will likely look scummy no matter his alignment.

I'm not putting him in that position. He put himself there by making the comment. If he wasn't willing or able to elaborate, why say it? Which is what gives the comment itself a scummy feeling.
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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #184 on: August 24, 2021, 12:58:18 pm »

vote: e
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Glooble

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #185 on: August 24, 2021, 01:30:06 pm »

I will admit I tend to scumread faust almost every game, regardless of which alignment he turns out to be.
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I think town!Glooble pointing to something as a scum tell and then shortly thereafter doing that thing is a lot more likely than scum!Glooble doing that.

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #186 on: August 24, 2021, 03:20:14 pm »

vote: e

Now I feel included as well
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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #187 on: August 24, 2021, 03:20:33 pm »

The big paragraph posts are intimidating. So many words
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faust

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #188 on: August 24, 2021, 03:28:02 pm »

Here's another question. I assume faust knows that Mathdude is a common D1 mislynch. So why would he go there? Isn't faust still considered to be a quite good player?
I don't know why MiX thinks mathdude is a common D1 misexile. (btw we say exile now instead of lynch because the word lynch has a problematic background)

mathdude is a relatively new addition to f.ds mafia, he was misexiled D1 in his first game and not since.
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MiX

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #189 on: August 24, 2021, 03:32:15 pm »

Here's another question. I assume faust knows that Mathdude is a common D1 mislynch. So why would he go there? Isn't faust still considered to be a quite good player?
I don't know why MiX thinks mathdude is a common D1 misexile. (btw we say exile now instead of lynch because the word lynch has a problematic background)

mathdude is a relatively new addition to f.ds mafia, he was misexiled D1 in his first game and not since.

Because he was misexiled D1, then died D1, then exiled themselves D1, then lived to endgame, then we exiled them D2 (these last 2 as scum).

For the mathdude games we have, I think that's good enough to say he's a common D1 misexile.

Also I would say it's easy to pick on him with votes.
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faust

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #190 on: August 24, 2021, 03:42:44 pm »

Here's another question. I assume faust knows that Mathdude is a common D1 mislynch. So why would he go there? Isn't faust still considered to be a quite good player?
I don't know why MiX thinks mathdude is a common D1 misexile. (btw we say exile now instead of lynch because the word lynch has a problematic background)

mathdude is a relatively new addition to f.ds mafia, he was misexiled D1 in his first game and not since.

Because he was misexiled D1, then died D1, then exiled themselves D1, then lived to endgame, then we exiled them D2 (these last 2 as scum).

For the mathdude games we have, I think that's good enough to say he's a common D1 misexile.

Also I would say it's easy to pick on him with votes.
No it's not. The D1 death you mention was not town-induced. A game where he tried to get exiled isn't really relevant in this game, so the only data point we have is a single game.
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MiX

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #191 on: August 24, 2021, 03:44:39 pm »

Here's another question. I assume faust knows that Mathdude is a common D1 mislynch. So why would he go there? Isn't faust still considered to be a quite good player?
I don't know why MiX thinks mathdude is a common D1 misexile. (btw we say exile now instead of lynch because the word lynch has a problematic background)

mathdude is a relatively new addition to f.ds mafia, he was misexiled D1 in his first game and not since.

Because he was misexiled D1, then died D1, then exiled themselves D1, then lived to endgame, then we exiled them D2 (these last 2 as scum).

For the mathdude games we have, I think that's good enough to say he's a common D1 misexile.

Also I would say it's easy to pick on him with votes.
No it's not. The D1 death you mention was not town-induced. A game where he tried to get exiled isn't really relevant in this game, so the only data point we have is a single game.

One game out of one game he was town and could actually have been misexiled D1.
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iguanaiguana

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #192 on: August 24, 2021, 04:02:08 pm »

I remember now about exile. I knew that then I forgot! Good call, will adjust.
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Point iguana. Not that points really matter with a result, but still.
Igu is town or trying the hardest he ever has as scum.

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #193 on: August 24, 2021, 04:42:49 pm »

I think scum!Didds is more likely to forget Swowl was posted VLA (by both me and then himself), and the vote on Swowl, given their previous games together, feels like an intentionally aimed vote to show participation without actually engaging. It has a “I’ve got to make sure I vote Swowl D1 or he’ll be suspicious of me for not going at him” type vibe, and I could see scum!Didds overlooking the VLA while making sure to get that vote in.

Swowl, can you confirm this is the case?

Ok I am home.
This first because it is at me directly.

Answer is no. Or I mean "no I cannot confirm I think this is what would happen". I get what Galz is saying and if it was like ANYONE other than WCD and myself, it would have merit... but Short answer no.. long answer below.

This is all generalization...
When we are skum together, we try to simulate our buddy buddy normal nature because obvious reasons.
We she is town and I am skum, I lose. I don't know how to play it.
When she is skum and I am town, I am like 50-50 either way. And the only reason I am 50-50 is if she actually makes a mistake. Once I cultivate a town read on her, I am pretty locked in.

When we are both town, we tend to ignore each other until one of us posts "something something... and because I town read WCD/Swowl". Then the other one normally reciprocates, unless a weird ass game where there is a skum read by that point... and then we are hard core buddy buddy until the end.

Its kind of like peacocks or whatever... walk around in circles for a while and then one of them shows all the plumage and then the other peacock either tries to kill it or chill with it. We normally chill.

Now this is my first post back, so I need to kind of read up on the general game state thus far but I will point out two things. One obvious, one not so much.

1) Obvious thing - WCD voted me. A weak vote so meh, but still. This part of the argument I get from Galz... Except different reasoning. Not so much weird because it has a vibe too it, because she would know that she doesn't need to simulate that vibe.... but weird because it breaks the peacock dance ritual.

2) Not so obvious thing - Galz has been in countless games with WCD and myself, so he would know that we generally ignore each other. So making the argument he did, for the REASON he stated... is weird.



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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #194 on: August 24, 2021, 04:53:03 pm »

Starting from when the last player checked in for the first time...


Thank you, and yes. I'm a town  8)

hate the smiley face. personal paranoia, but I thing "I am town" followed by a smiley face is like texting "LOL" at the end of a accusatory or awkward statement. 
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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #195 on: August 24, 2021, 04:53:28 pm »

Short days!

@e, what made you think of massclaim, anyway? They are usually disasters for town Day 1.

phishy.
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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #196 on: August 24, 2021, 04:55:41 pm »

Hypothetically, if we mass claim, then scum knows who is the doctor to roleblock and who is the tracker to shoot D1 and who is the vigilante to redirect onto the IC and we're screwed. We never get to catch scum out on their lying D1 claims because they know all of our powers and how to thwart them while we still know nothing real about them.

Mass claim is bad.

A lot of assumptions (knowledge?) about what powers scum has here; probably means nothing, but I wanted to note it for later just in case. Besides that, I agree.

I don't think these are very "bold" assumptions. Maybe replace Tracker with "Tracker/Cop" and then the Vig doesn't like "need to exist. But yeah, we have a start day IC... so just game creation wise, there kind of has to be certain roles for balance in a standard RMM.
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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #197 on: August 24, 2021, 04:59:37 pm »

who brought up the mass claim orginally?
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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #198 on: August 24, 2021, 05:00:03 pm »

who brought up the mass claim orginally?

Got it. OK E! also skum points then.
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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #199 on: August 24, 2021, 05:01:11 pm »

who brought up the mass claim orginally?

Got it. OK E! also skum points then.

was gonna post reasons, but pretty much "what faust said".
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Jesus how did i fuck that up
real good. That’s how
Town:  14 wins, 14 losses (1 MVP)
Skum: 7 wins, 7 losses (1 MVP)
3-Party: 4 wins, 1 loss
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