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Author Topic: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia  (Read 98130 times)

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Galzria

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #150 on: August 23, 2021, 07:45:31 pm »

What was the last game you didn’t have a QT with Swowl, that he didn’t host (which you would still have a QT with him in…)?

I’m not saying you don’t have one here, I have no idea, but the odds are generally against it and your vote felt like fake interaction, especially because of the stated VLA.
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Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

Glooble

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #151 on: August 23, 2021, 08:09:09 pm »

Hypothetically, if we mass claim, then scum knows who is the doctor to roleblock and who is the tracker to shoot D1 and who is the vigilante to redirect onto the IC and we're screwed. We never get to catch scum out on their lying D1 claims because they know all of our powers and how to thwart them while we still know nothing real about them.

Mass claim is bad.

A lot of assumptions (knowledge?) about what powers scum has here; probably means nothing, but I wanted to note it for later just in case. Besides that, I agree.

I think this post from Dylan is a little bit scummy. It seems disingenuous to me. Iguana is clearly using hypothetical examples to make a point, and implying that he's somehow letting his secret setup knowledge slip is... weird.
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I think town!Glooble pointing to something as a scum tell and then shortly thereafter doing that thing is a lot more likely than scum!Glooble doing that.

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #152 on: August 23, 2021, 08:13:10 pm »

See, I told you all advocating for a mass claim would be silly
I would make a comment about you are conveniently trying to absolve yourself from responsibility for what you posted, but first I am going to wait and see how this post is received.

Also, what exactly do you think I should be taking responsibility for?
Floating the idea of a massclaim, which usually leads to nothing could but can have the effect of people revealing information about their roles.

I also think this post from faust is a little off. The idea of a day one mass claim is so against the grain that nobody is going to say "ooh, great idea! I'm the cop!" without coming to a group consensus. I fail to see how e's suggestion could have led to anyone leaking information about their roles.

I'll join the faust wagon, I guess. That's a thing, right?

vote: faust

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I think town!Glooble pointing to something as a scum tell and then shortly thereafter doing that thing is a lot more likely than scum!Glooble doing that.

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iguanaiguana

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #153 on: August 23, 2021, 08:18:31 pm »

Ok, time for an embarassing post.

Lalight is not playing :(

I just realized this... right now. I think when I cast my first vote, I had just scanned the players and saw LL's name. Then for some reason Joth decided to make my vote for his comod count in the vote totals... which validated my feelings of LL playing this game. Today I looked to try to figure out why he hadn't posted yet... and ... yeah... Lol, I failed.
In other words you felt obligated to vote for someone in your opening post and didn't care who. Scummy much?

No, I RVS'd Lalight because when I chose to come back after three years and /inned a game, LL was the one who expressed excitement about me coming back. That made him an emotionally comfortable person to RVS because he was nice to me. I just didn't realize that he wasn't playing in this game and those posts werent part of this pre game because I signed up for this months ago.

I didn't feel obligated to RVS. I usually do though because voting creates interactions and helps D1 not to suck as much. I mean, look at this fun interaction we're having right now because of it!
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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #154 on: August 23, 2021, 08:23:09 pm »

@e, what made you think of massclaim, anyway? They are usually disasters for town Day 1.
What do you think this question will accomplish?
Mostly keep him talking. If he has some scummy scheme in mind, then let him dig himself deeper. What did you think I was intending?
I don't know, that's why I was asking.
And what do you think now?
I think that maybe it wasn't an attempt at rolefishing, but I'm not completely convinced.
I was trusting town!e to know what not to say, while challenging a possible scum!e to commit himself further. There was a spate of games some years back where it seemed that people were role-slipping left and right. I think we had a bunch of inexperienced players then, and e does not fit that description.
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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #155 on: August 23, 2021, 08:27:02 pm »

Ok, time for an embarassing post.

Lalight is not playing :(

I just realized this... right now. I think when I cast my first vote, I had just scanned the players and saw LL's name. Then for some reason Joth decided to make my vote for his comod count in the vote totals... which validated my feelings of LL playing this game. Today I looked to try to figure out why he hadn't posted yet... and ... yeah... Lol, I failed.
In other words you felt obligated to vote for someone in your opening post and didn't care who. Scummy much?

I feel like there is an unusual amount of opportunistic shading going on in this game so far. I liked pubby's previous post, though. I felt like he read my intentions pretty well.
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MiX

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #156 on: August 23, 2021, 08:35:03 pm »

What was the last game you didn’t have a QT with Swowl, that he didn’t host (which you would still have a QT with him in…)?

I’m not saying you don’t have one here, I have no idea, but the odds are generally against it and your vote felt like fake interaction, especially because of the stated VLA.

What does the QT have to do with anything? Can you elaborate?
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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #157 on: August 23, 2021, 08:37:14 pm »

What was the last game you didn’t have a QT with Swowl, that he didn’t host (which you would still have a QT with him in…)?

I’m not saying you don’t have one here, I have no idea, but the odds are generally against it and your vote felt like fake interaction, especially because of the stated VLA.

I’m not following. Why do my previous QTs that he was in mean that I’d need to start by going after him because “I’ve got to make sure I vote Swowl D1 or he’ll be suspicious of me for not going after him”? That just doesn’t make any sense to me.

I am looking forward to playing with him again, along with you, MiX, faust, and EFHW. Well, everyone really, because I think of you as friends, but even more so with those folks. So, there is genuine enthusiasm, but it wasn’t forced. I realized he was VLA, I just thought it was for the weekend not Tuesday. But whatevs. Once you get an idea in your head, I just get frustrated when you dig in.

All in all reality, and in light of our pretty solid record of misexiles on D1, unless something really dramatic happens in the next three days, I will probably advocate for no exile because a good ‘ole Joth RMM is going to have night powers that are more interesting and important than what we’re doing D1. I’m not there yet because I’m thinking about when we caught Joth in Memento (although that was D2, I just reminded myself…it felt like D2 because I couldn’t vote D1.)

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #158 on: August 23, 2021, 08:50:34 pm »

I don't like voting for pubby, Faust, Galzria, Glooble...maybe also e and Dylan.

These players have made reasoned cases and have backed them up with at least one vote. That doesn't make them all town, but it's a towny thing to do. Scum would rather not have reads and votes that can expose them on D3+ flying around on D1.

I still like Awaclus. But I will look if anyone else has more than one vote.
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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #159 on: August 23, 2021, 08:57:23 pm »

WCD, who is scum to you?
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Dylan32

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #160 on: August 23, 2021, 11:59:52 pm »

Hypothetically, if we mass claim, then scum knows who is the doctor to roleblock and who is the tracker to shoot D1 and who is the vigilante to redirect onto the IC and we're screwed. We never get to catch scum out on their lying D1 claims because they know all of our powers and how to thwart them while we still know nothing real about them.

Mass claim is bad.

A lot of assumptions (knowledge?) about what powers scum has here; probably means nothing, but I wanted to note it for later just in case. Besides that, I agree.

I think this post from Dylan is a little bit scummy. It seems disingenuous to me. Iguana is clearly using hypothetical examples to make a point, and implying that he's somehow letting his secret setup knowledge slip is... weird.

Meh, that was just the first thing I had seen that stuck out as even remotely alignment indicative, even though like I said it is most likely nothing. The reason it even remotely pinged as maybe something was the total lack of any direct hypothetical language, like no "if" or "might" or "maybe" was used at all, which is fairly normal for hypothetical things like that. On a balance, I agree it is way more likely that it was truly hypothetical, but since there's a nonzero chance it was something, I pointed it out.

See, I told you all advocating for a mass claim would be silly
I would make a comment about you are conveniently trying to absolve yourself from responsibility for what you posted, but first I am going to wait and see how this post is received.

Also, what exactly do you think I should be taking responsibility for?
Floating the idea of a massclaim, which usually leads to nothing could but can have the effect of people revealing information about their roles.

--snip-- I fail to see how e's suggestion could have led to anyone leaking information about their roles.

--snip--

I won't say what info can be gained from it in order to not give you any tips if you are scum and haven't figured it out, but simply put, even if nobody leaks anything detailed enough for someone to figure out "so-and-so is a watcher" or something like that, scum can get information based on people's reactions that could help them target roles that would be worse for town to lose.
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Awaclus

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #161 on: August 24, 2021, 02:01:29 am »

I have definitely always complained when people answered questions that weren't meant for them. And it's particularly strange from Awaclus.

Why is it particularly strange from me? I probably do it more than the average person.
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Awaclus

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #162 on: August 24, 2021, 02:06:46 am »

I still like Awaclus.

I like you too <3
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Awaclus

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #163 on: August 24, 2021, 02:10:05 am »

I also think this post from faust is a little off. The idea of a day one mass claim is so against the grain that nobody is going to say "ooh, great idea! I'm the cop!" without coming to a group consensus. I fail to see how e's suggestion could have led to anyone leaking information about their roles.

Nobody is going to say "ooh, great idea! I'm the cop!", but someone could say "ooh, awful idea! I definitely don't think we should massclaim this game!" and then everyone would know that was the cop.
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faust

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #164 on: August 24, 2021, 03:25:49 am »

I have definitely always complained when people answered questions that weren't meant for them. And it's particularly strange from Awaclus.

Why is it particularly strange from me? I probably do it more than the average person.
I perceive you as a player that put an above-average amount of thought into each word that you post. And if you put thought in to whether it's a good idea to answer questions meant for other players, I figure you would arrive at the conclusion that it's hurtful to town.

I also think this post from faust is a little off. The idea of a day one mass claim is so against the grain that nobody is going to say "ooh, great idea! I'm the cop!" without coming to a group consensus. I fail to see how e's suggestion could have led to anyone leaking information about their roles.

Nobody is going to say "ooh, great idea! I'm the cop!", but someone could say "ooh, awful idea! I definitely don't think we should massclaim this game!" and then everyone would know that was the cop.
This is the perfect example of what I am talking about. I was about to make that point, but now it is impossible to tell whether that is really what I intended or whether I just opportunistically supported your reasoning. There is no more need for me to put my thoughts into my own words, and so the answer to the question is way less helpful to Glooble trying to figure out my alignment.
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faust

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #165 on: August 24, 2021, 03:29:15 am »

I do have an additional remark on why talking about massclaims is bad.

As Awaclus pointed out, stating your preference pro or anti massclaim possibly in itself reveals role info because some roles benefit or suffer disproportionately from a massclaim.

One might counter this by saying "well town should just answer without regard for their role". Which is saying, town should be disingenuous and do the thing that scum is also trying to do. This causes town to behave in a scum-like manner and thus muddies the water for scumhunting.
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faust

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #166 on: August 24, 2021, 03:34:02 am »

I was trusting town!e to know what not to say, while challenging a possible scum!e to commit himself further. There was a spate of games some years back where it seemed that people were role-slipping left and right. I think we had a bunch of inexperienced players then, and e does not fit that description.
This post has the same underlying issue that I pointed out above. Basically you're asking town!e to be a bit disingenuous, and thus the answer he gives will likely look scummy no matter his alignment.
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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #167 on: August 24, 2021, 03:43:16 am »

I think scum!Didds is more likely to forget Swowl was posted VLA
I think that sort of thing is quite the stretch. My default assumption is that scum pays more attention to the game, not less.
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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #168 on: August 24, 2021, 03:47:18 am »

I think I'm back to

Vote: mathdude

for now.
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Awaclus

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #169 on: August 24, 2021, 03:50:43 am »

I perceive you as a player that put an above-average amount of thought into each word that you post. And if you put thought in to whether it's a good idea to answer questions meant for other players, I figure you would arrive at the conclusion that it's hurtful to town.

I understand that it's harmful to town in some cases, but in some other cases, getting the question answered furthers the game and it doesn't really matter who does it.

This is the perfect example of what I am talking about. I was about to make that point, but now it is impossible to tell whether that is really what I intended or whether I just opportunistically supported your reasoning. There is no more need for me to put my thoughts into my own words, and so the answer to the question is way less helpful to Glooble trying to figure out my alignment.

Yeah, that is a pretty good example. In this case, I did not have any hopes of any useful info regarding your alignment coming out of you answering the question yourself. I fully trust you were going to make that argument anyway and it doesn't make me think you're at all more likely to be town.
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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #170 on: August 24, 2021, 06:12:08 am »

I perceive you as a player that put an above-average amount of thought into each word that you post. And if you put thought in to whether it's a good idea to answer questions meant for other players, I figure you would arrive at the conclusion that it's hurtful to town.

I understand that it's harmful to town in some cases, but in some other cases, getting the question answered furthers the game and it doesn't really matter who does it.

This is the perfect example of what I am talking about. I was about to make that point, but now it is impossible to tell whether that is really what I intended or whether I just opportunistically supported your reasoning. There is no more need for me to put my thoughts into my own words, and so the answer to the question is way less helpful to Glooble trying to figure out my alignment.

Yeah, that is a pretty good example. In this case, I did not have any hopes of any useful info regarding your alignment coming out of you answering the question yourself. I fully trust you were going to make that argument anyway and it doesn't make me think you're at all more likely to be town.
That mindset seems a bit arrogant to me. You might not have hopes of useful info coming out of this, but presumably the person asking the question had, or otherwise they would not have asked. You make yourself the arbiter of what is and isn't a useful question.
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Awaclus

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #171 on: August 24, 2021, 06:35:57 am »

That mindset seems a bit arrogant to me. You might not have hopes of useful info coming out of this, but presumably the person asking the question had, or otherwise they would not have asked. You make yourself the arbiter of what is and isn't a useful question.

Glooble didn't see why the massclaim suggestion could have led to information being leaked, I helped him see why. It was a useful question and a useful answer. If Glooble did in fact see why, and was only pretending in order to hear your explanation, then I misunderstood what he was trying to do.
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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #172 on: August 24, 2021, 07:10:40 am »

WCD, who is scum to you?

I dunno. (And I don’t think anyone else really does either, except scum obvi). There is a pretty long list of folks who I think are towny. Mathdude, Dylan, and Galz are not on that list. And I’m not sure what I think of the current faust/Awaclus discussion.
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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #173 on: August 24, 2021, 08:25:11 am »


One might counter this by saying "well town should just answer without regard for their role". Which is saying, town should be disingenuous and do the thing that scum is also trying to do. This causes town to behave in a scum-like manner and thus muddies the water for scumhunting.

I don't personally think my opinion on a particular strategy is affected in anyway whatsoever by my current role. I would always think about it in the context of any roles that could theoretically be in the game, and I would expect the same of any town player. I don't see how that's disingenuous.
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I think town!Glooble pointing to something as a scum tell and then shortly thereafter doing that thing is a lot more likely than scum!Glooble doing that.

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Re: RMM60: Wizard of Oz Mafia
« Reply #174 on: August 24, 2021, 08:30:10 am »


One might counter this by saying "well town should just answer without regard for their role". Which is saying, town should be disingenuous and do the thing that scum is also trying to do. This causes town to behave in a scum-like manner and thus muddies the water for scumhunting.

I don't personally think my opinion on a particular strategy is affected in anyway whatsoever by my current role. I would always think about it in the context of any roles that could theoretically be in the game, and I would expect the same of any town player. I don't see how that's disingenuous.

...Which means it's useless when you're trying to scumread people. It's noise at worse.
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