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Author Topic: Throne Room + Durable Mouse  (Read 2133 times)

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AJD

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Throne Room + Durable Mouse
« on: May 14, 2021, 04:46:45 am »
+1

I'm not sure if this has come up before. Let us suppose Way of the Mouse has Fishing Village. Here goes.

We know this:

Throne Room -> Necropolis. Both cards discarded at Cleanup this turn.

Throne Room -> Wharf. Wharf does something next turn, stays in play. Throne played a Duration, stays in play till Wharf leaves play.

Overlord -> Wharf. Wharf doesn't enter play. Wharf does something next turn, would stay in play if it were in play. Overlord played a Duration, stays in play until Wharf would have been discarded.

Throne Room -> Overlord -> Wharf. Overlord played a Duration, stays in play until Wharf would have been discarded next turn. Throne Room didn't play a Duration, discarded from play this turn.

Wharf / Way of the Otter. Not scheduled to do anything next turn, Wharf discarded from play this turn.

Throne Room -> Wharf / Way of the Otter. Throne played a Duration, is discarded from play when the Duration is. Wharf is discarded from play this turn; so is Throne Room.

Necropolis / Way of the Mouse -> Fishing Village. Necropolis played a Duration, remains in play until Duration would have left play next turn.

Okay, so here's the question:

Throne Room -> Necropolis / Way of the Mouse -> Fishing Village. Necropolis played a Duration card which acts next turn; Necropolis stays in play. Throne did not play a Duration card, is discarded this turn.

Throne Room -> Wharf / Way of the Mouse -> Fishing Village. Wharf played a Duration card which acts next turn; Wharf stays in play. Throne did play a Duration card (Wharf), stays in play until Wharf is discarded, next turn.

...Right?

In other words, Throne on a Duration card played according to a durable Way of the Mouse behaves differently than Throne on a non-Duration card played according to a durable Way of the Mouse.
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Ingix

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Re: Throne Room + Durable Mouse
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2021, 05:55:08 am »
+1

I'm not sure if this has come up before. Let us suppose Way of the Mouse has Fishing Village. Here goes.

We know this:

Throne Room -> Wharf / Way of the Otter. Throne played a Duration, is discarded from play when the Duration is. Wharf is discarded from play this turn; so is Throne Room.

That bit is ambiguous. You Throne Roomed a Wharf, so you play Wharf twice. Playing it using Way of the Otter or "normally" is independent for both plays. Your outcome is true only if you chose to play Wharf using Way of the Otter both times. If you play Wharf at least once "normally", then Wharf will have something to do on your next turn, so stays in play until then. Since the Throne Room played the Wharf, a Duration card, twice, it will also stay in play until then.

Okay, so here's the question:

Throne Room -> Necropolis / Way of the Mouse -> Fishing Village. Necropolis played a Duration card which acts next turn; Necropolis stays in play. Throne did not play a Duration card, is discarded this turn.

Correct.

Throne Room -> Wharf / Way of the Mouse -> Fishing Village. Wharf played a Duration card which acts next turn; Wharf stays in play....

Well, Wharf played a card that was not in play "leaving it there", that's what's keeping it out until the card it played would have stayed out. That it played a Duration card is not relevant, Duration cards are just the overwhelming majority of cards that can stay out.

In this case, there actually is no existing card that can be a card for Way of the Mouse and either is like a Throne Room or like an Overlord, it could only be a Duration card that would stay out. But that is AFAIK a "lucky coincidence" of how cards are priced (those effects don't come so cheap that a card is eliigable for Way of the Mouse).

In your previous Overlord -> Wharf example, it could have been Overlord --> Throne Room --> Wharf. Throne Room would have stayed in play along with the Wharf, so Overlord actually stays in play as a stand in, as long as Throne Room would, which is as long as Wharf does. So Overlord played a non-Duration card that would have stayed in play, causing Overlord to stay in play.

...Throne did play a Duration card (Wharf), stays in play until Wharf is discarded, next turn.

It may be obvious, but it's worth repeating that the important part is that Throne Room played a staying-out Duration card twice. If it was a Vassal or Herold that played Wharf, either normally or using Way of the Mouse playing Fishing Village, Vassal/Herold would not stay out.

In other words, Throne on a Duration card played according to a durable Way of the Mouse behaves differently than Throne on a non-Duration card played according to a durable Way of the Mouse.

Yes. That's because the rules for "Throne Rooms" staying out explicitly mention they only apply when they play a Duration card extra times. It may seem strange to make a distinction, but having it work on all cards would have resulted in another change in what stays out for "Throne Room -> Throne Room -> Smithy/Fishing Village", keeping the first Throne Room in play "again". Basically one aspect of the 2019 errata was to keep the rules changed to a minimum, with getting the work done on errataing Overlord/Band of Misfits a.s.o to use the new "play something, leaving it there" method and keep tracking of effects half-way intact.
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Jeebus

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Re: Throne Room + Durable Mouse
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2021, 05:56:28 am »
0

I agree with everything in this thread, except for this nitpick:

It may be obvious, but it's worth repeating that the important part is that Throne Room played a staying-out Duration card twice.

Not necessarily "twice", but "extra times" (as you wrote in the next paragraph). This way Royal Carriage and Scepter are also covered.

I still think these rules are overly complicated. Way of the Mouse (being a BoM variant) obviously added a huge amount of complexity when it comes to Durations and discarding. But I think it was a mistake from before to have the BoM+Duration rule inconsistent with the TR+Duration rule. The resulting problem is how to play TR+TR+Duration as opposed to BoM+TR+Duration (or with specifically Necromancer, Necromancer+BoM+Duration).
« Last Edit: May 16, 2021, 12:24:34 pm by Jeebus »
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Ingix

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Re: Throne Room + Durable Mouse
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2021, 07:15:43 am »
0

I agree with everything in this thread, except for this nitpick:

It may be obvious, but it's worth repeating that the important part is that Throne Room played a staying-out Duration card twice.

Not necessarily "twice", but "extra times" (as you wrote in the next paragraph). This way Royal Carriage and Scepter are also covered.

Right, good catch!
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Illice

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Re: Throne Room + Durable Mouse
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2021, 12:08:11 pm »
0

I tried this in Dominion Online. When I played Throne Room to play a Lighthouse using Way of the Mouse to play Fishing Village both times, neither card stayed in play. However, when I played Throne Room to play a Band of Misfits using Way of the Mouse to play Fishing Village, Band of Misfits stayed in play. That seems to be a bug.
Additionally, I tried to play a Band of Misfits to play a non-Duration Action card and use Way of the Mouse to play Fishing Village, Band of Misfits stayed in play. I don't think that's intended as Band of Misfits did not emulate a Duration card.
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Ingix

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Re: Throne Room + Durable Mouse
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2021, 01:59:00 pm »
0

Dominion Online is known to be bugged when the MouseToy is a Duration card and a Duration card is played using Way of the Mouse.  :(

>  Band of Misfits to play a non-Duration Action card and use Way of the Mouse to play Fishing Village, Band of Misfits stayed in play. I don't think that's intended as Band of Misfits did not emulate a Duration card.

That behaviour is correct. The stay-out rules for "play this but leave it there" cards (like Band of Misfits) don't care if the card played was a Duration card, all they care is how long the played card would stay out if it was actually in play. The non-Duration Action card would stay out if it "normally" played a Fishing Village using Way of the Mouse, so Band of Misfits stays out.  It's there to remind you next turn that some effect needed a reminder that isn't itself there, in this case for the Fishing Village effect.
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CaptainTheo

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Re: Throne Room + Durable Mouse
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2021, 09:14:50 pm »
+1

Isn't it true now that Throne Room stays in play even if it plays a Duration that stays in play only once? E.g. from http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Throne_Room: "Even if only one play of the Duration card is keeping it in play, such as using Throne Room on Gear and only setting aside cards one of the times, Throne Room stays in play with it." (The same would apply presumably if you Throne Roomed Gear, set aside cards on it the first time and played it as a Way the second time.)

I had an interesting case crop up last week where Way of the Mouse was in the kingdom and its card was Cargo Ship. Presumably if I play a village and then two different cards (say two copies of Pawn) in one turn, each as Way of the Mouse (Cargo Ship) and later in the turn gain a card to store on a Cargo Ship, I would pick one of the two different Pawns to put it on, and it would stay in play but the other one wouldn't?
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AJD

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Re: Throne Room + Durable Mouse
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2021, 11:06:17 pm »
0

Isn't it true now that Throne Room stays in play even if it plays a Duration that stays in play only once? E.g. from http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Throne_Room: "Even if only one play of the Duration card is keeping it in play, such as using Throne Room on Gear and only setting aside cards one of the times, Throne Room stays in play with it." (The same would apply presumably if you Throne Roomed Gear, set aside cards on it the first time and played it as a Way the second time.)

Yes, that's true; but playing a Throne Room on a non-Duration card and then playing the non-Duration card as a Duration card (via Command or via Way of the Mouse) isn't technically playing Throne Room on a Duration card, so the Throne doesn't stay in play.

Quote
I had an interesting case crop up last week where Way of the Mouse was in the kingdom and its card was Cargo Ship. Presumably if I play a village and then two different cards (say two copies of Pawn) in one turn, each as Way of the Mouse (Cargo Ship) and later in the turn gain a card to store on a Cargo Ship, I would pick one of the two different Pawns to put it on, and it would stay in play but the other one wouldn't?

Oh... huh. The rule is, "When you play [an emulator], leave it in play as long as you would have left the card it plays in play." There are two different ways of interpreting this:

(1) These Pawns are emulating a Cargo Ship—specifically, they are emulating the copy of Cargo Ship that's set aside with Way of the Mouse. They're emulating the same individual card. However long that Cargo Ship would stay in play, both Pawns should stay in play that long. Since that Cargo Ship is doing something next turn, it would stay in play till then, and so both Pawns stay in play till then.
(2) Each Pawn is playing a Cargo Ship. You should leave each one in play as long as it would if it were a copy of Cargo Ship, instead of some other card playing a Cargo Ship. If the first Pawn were an actual Cargo Ship it would stay in play till next turn, but if the second Pawn were a Cargo Ship it would be discarded this turn. Therefore you discard one Pawn this turn and one Pawn next turn.

I bet that (2) is how Donald X. intended the rule to work, but I think the actual statement of the rule is ambiguous.
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Ingix

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Re: Throne Room + Durable Mouse
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2021, 03:21:29 am »
+1

I had an interesting case crop up last week where Way of the Mouse was in the kingdom and its card was Cargo Ship. Presumably if I play a village and then two different cards (say two copies of Pawn) in one turn, each as Way of the Mouse (Cargo Ship) and later in the turn gain a card to store on a Cargo Ship, I would pick one of the two different Pawns to put it on, and it would stay in play but the other one wouldn't?

Right. If it was real Cargo Ships you played, one would have stayed out, the other would have been discarded during Cleanup. That's exactly what happens to the Pawns, one stays out, one gets discarded. So its version (2) of what AJD said.

For similar cards like Overlord or Band of Misfits that helps with the tracking, you only need to remember what you played with them, but don't need to remember if you played the exact same copy of a card twice, or different copies. Say you use 2 Overlords to play Gear, and at Cleanup you see you have a Workshop played between them, but don't remember what you gained with that Workshop. Using version (2) makes sure you don't need to know if it was a Gear or not, the Overlords stay in play or are discarded only based on what their play did. So the Overlord(s) with cards under them stay in play, if no cards are under them, they are discarded. Note this gets more complicated if an Overlord is played mutliple times.

Note that this has nothing to do with Throne Room and similar cards. "Play but leave it there" cards (like Overlord, Necromancer or cards played using Way of the Mouse) follow another set of rules, as AJD explained.
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Jeebus

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Re: Throne Room + Durable Mouse
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2021, 05:20:38 am »
0

"Command" has nothing to do with this. We're talking about "play but leave it there" cards, some of which happen to be Command cards but that's incidental.

Also, calling them emulators is misleading. Old BoM/Overlord could be called that. But the new versions, along with Necromancer, Captain, Way of the Mouse and Inherited Estates, are not emulating, they are merely playing a card.

To answer the question, it might help to look at how abilities track cards in Dominion. A card is tracked only if referred to as a card. A played ability is not tied to its card. Old example: Throne Room + Mining Village. The play ability on MV moves the MV to trash on first play. Then you play the MV again. The play ability on MV doesn't remember that it was moved to trash; otherwise it would move the MV from trash to play Even though it was the same printed ability that moved it to trash, it's "loaded" as a completely new ability once it's played again. EDIT: I wrote wrong, the MV's ability couldn't move it to play, but it could move it to trash if it hadn't lost track of, although since it's alread in trash, it still wouldn't be possible. Not a great example.

Each time a Pawn (via Mouse) plays the Cargo Ship, the Cargo Ship's play ability is "loaded" as a new ability. However, since it's a Duration, the rules (for determining which cards are discarded in Clean-up) tie this ability to the card: If, when we get to Clean-up, the ability has set something up for later, we leave the card in play. But in this case the card we're leaving in play is the "play but leave it there" card (the Mouse'd Pawn): We're following the rule "leave [the Pawn] in play as long as you would have left [the Cargo Ship] in play". Since we have played two Pawns, each playing Cargo Ship with a separate play ability, each of them is evalueted separately in Clean-up: Did we set something up for later, thereby causing the Cargo Ship to "would be" left in play? The answer is yes for one Pawn, no for the other.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2021, 12:24:45 pm by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Throne Room + Durable Mouse
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2021, 05:40:21 am »
0

WARNING: Theoretical thoughts based on non-existent cards:

It would possibly work differently if the rule were not based on "would have". Let's imagine a card "Ferret" that says: "Play the set-aside card twice. Setup: Set aside an unused Action costing $2 or $3.". With Cargo Ship. We would play the Cargo Ship, moving it into play. Since a Duration was played twice, the Ferret would stay in play if the Cargo Ship stays (that is, if we set aside at least one card this turn).

But let's say we then play another Ferret, which plays the same Cargo Ship again. (Obviously Ferret would be a very bad and stupid card because it would keep playing the same copy of Cargo Ship no matter where it would be in the game.) Now if we choose to set aside cards only for one of the two Cargo Ship abilities, what would happen to the other Ferret? It depends on how we interpret the TR+Duration rule:

"If a Duration card is played extra times by a card such as Throne Room, that card also stays in play until the Duration card is discarded, to track the fact that the Duration card was played extra times."

Let's say we only set aside cards for Ferret 1, not for Ferret 2. Ferret 2 (being a TR variant) did play the Duration extra times, and the Duration does stay in play. The intention is clearly to track that it was played extra times, and Ferret 2 is not needed to track that, but this is also true about Ferret 1 if we just use the Cargo Ship once, and we still leave Ferret 1 in play. It would therefore seem that we leave both Ferrets in play.

AJD

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Re: Throne Room + Durable Mouse
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2021, 10:59:58 am »
0

Also, calling them emulators is misleading. Old BoM/Overlord could be called that. But the new versions, along with Necromancer, Captain, Way of the Mouse and Inherited Estates, are not emulating, they are merely playing a card.

Granted, but at least "emulator" is an informal term that already exists and has an article on the wiki and everything, so I didn't have to make up a new term.

Quote
To answer the question, it might help to look at how abilities track cards in Dominion. A card is tracked only if referred to as a card.

I'm not sure what you mean by "only if referred to as a card". The instructions on Way of the Mouse ("play the set-aside card") and the rules for emulators ("as long as you would have left the card it plays") both refer to the emulated card as a "card". The instructions on Throne Room also refer to a "card", of course. But your discussion seems to imply you're considering these as examples of cards not being "referred to as a card".

Quote
A played ability is not tied to its card. Old example: Throne Room + Mining Village. The play ability on MV moves the MV to trash on first play. Then you play the MV again. The play ability on MV doesn't remember that it was moved to trash; otherwise it would move the MV from trash to play. Even though it was the same printed ability that moved it to trash, it's "loaded" as a completely new ability once it's played again.

I don't understand how this is relevant; this is just because of the stop-moving rule. The play ability on MV isn't what would (but doesn't) move the MV from trash to play; it's the play ability on Throne Room that would do that.

Quote
Each time a Pawn (via Mouse) plays the Cargo Ship, the Cargo Ship's play ability is "loaded" as a new ability. However, since it's a Duration, the rules (for determining which cards are discarded in Clean-up) tie this ability to the card: If, when we get to Clean-up, the ability has set something up for later, we leave the card in play. But in this case the card we're leaving in play is the "play but leave it there" card (the Mouse'd Pawn): We're following the rule "leave [the Pawn] in play as long as you would have left [the Cargo Ship] in play". Since we have played two Pawns, each playing Cargo Ship with a separate play ability, each of them is evalueted separately in Clean-up: Did we set something up for later, thereby causing the Cargo Ship to "would be" left in play? The answer is yes for one Pawn, no for the other.

Everybody agrees this is the right behavior, but it seems like you're just stating the behavior; I don't think you've got a justification for how we know it's right based on the rules.
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AJD

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Re: Throne Room + Durable Mouse
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2021, 12:58:05 pm »
+1

Say, here's a related question, which is probably never going to come up in a real game.

Play a Barge, opting for draw next turn. Then trash the played Barge with Bonfire, and then via Villa–Graverobber–Vassal or whatever, regain the trashed Barge and play it again for draw immediately. Does the Barge stay in play? That Barge is in play now and is doing something on the next turn.

Probably not, right? Since you can't necessarily prove whether the Barge you gained from the trash is the same one you played at the beginning of the turn? But I don't know how the rules shake out about this. Is Jeebus's "loading" concept relevant here?
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Throne Room + Durable Mouse
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2021, 01:03:47 pm »
0

Say, here's a related question, which is probably never going to come up in a real game.

Play a Barge, opting for draw next turn. Then trash the played Barge with Bonfire, and then via Villa–Graverobber–Vassal or whatever, regain the trashed Barge and play it again for draw immediately. Does the Barge stay in play? That Barge is in play now and is doing something on the next turn.

Probably not, right? Since you can't necessarily prove whether the Barge you gained from the trash is the same one you played at the beginning of the turn? But I don't know how the rules shake out about this. Is Jeebus's "loading" concept relevant here?
I think I'd rule that the Barge loses track of itself as soon as you Bonfire it.
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AJD

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Re: Throne Room + Durable Mouse
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2021, 01:31:48 pm »
+1

Say, here's a related question, which is probably never going to come up in a real game.

Play a Barge, opting for draw next turn. Then trash the played Barge with Bonfire, and then via Villa–Graverobber–Vassal or whatever, regain the trashed Barge and play it again for draw immediately. Does the Barge stay in play? That Barge is in play now and is doing something on the next turn.

Probably not, right? Since you can't necessarily prove whether the Barge you gained from the trash is the same one you played at the beginning of the turn? But I don't know how the rules shake out about this. Is Jeebus's "loading" concept relevant here?
I think I'd rule that the Barge loses track of itself as soon as you Bonfire it.

Sure, but the current version of the lose-track rule, i.e. the stop-moving rule, just stops something from moving. The stop-moving rule can't cause something to move at a specific time (i.e., being discarded at the end of this turn.
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Jeebus

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Re: Throne Room + Durable Mouse
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2021, 01:53:07 pm »
0

Also, calling them emulators is misleading. Old BoM/Overlord could be called that. But the new versions, along with Necromancer, Captain, Way of the Mouse and Inherited Estates, are not emulating, they are merely playing a card.

Granted, but at least "emulator" is an informal term that already exists and has an article on the wiki and everything, so I didn't have to make up a new term.

Sure, but it's not very helpful since it implies that the cards are acting as copies of the other cards (which you also write in your interpretations).

Quote
I don't understand how this is relevant; this is just because of the stop-moving rule. The play ability on MV isn't what would (but doesn't) move the MV from trash to play; it's the play ability on Throne Room that would do that.

You're right, I wrote wrong, and this is not the best example. The MV's ability does also lose track of it when it's played the second time, since it's in the trash, but this only means that the ability can't move it to trash, which wouldn't matter since it's there already. A better example is just playing BoM to play an Embargo from the Supply. The play ability on the Embargo loses track of it, so it can't move it. BoM (and the player) tracks the Embargo and knows where it is, but this doesn't give Embargo's ability any knowledge of this. When Embargo is played, its ability starts with no prior knowledge of anything.

In the scenario in this thread:
-- We play Mouse'd Pawn 1, playing the Cargo Ship. We are now tracking the Pawn for the purposes of "leave [the Pawn] in play as long as you would have left [the Cargo Ship] in play", and this is tied to the Cargo Ship's ability, which is still ongoing.
-- We play Mouse'd Pawn 2, playing the Cargo Ship. We are tracking Pawn 2 and following this new Cargo Ship ability, but this ability is not related to the previous one.

The reason I believe this is the case, is that we are never actually tracking the location of the Cargo Ship. We know that it won't stay in play (since it's not in play) and that it won't move. The question is only whether it "would have" moved. Possibly it could be interprated the other way, that we see it as a card that could be left in play or not, thereby making both Pawns stay in play. But that would also mean that Ingix's example with Overlord+Gear would certainly work differently than intented. Given that it's not supposed to work that way, I can't see any other way to explain it. As I said in my second post, if the Cargo Ship were actually put in play, I think the result would be that both cards that played it would have to stay in play.

Jeebus

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Re: Throne Room + Durable Mouse
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2021, 02:00:21 pm »
0

Say, here's a related question, which is probably never going to come up in a real game.

Play a Barge, opting for draw next turn. Then trash the played Barge with Bonfire, and then via Villa–Graverobber–Vassal or whatever, regain the trashed Barge and play it again for draw immediately. Does the Barge stay in play? That Barge is in play now and is doing something on the next turn.

Probably not, right? Since you can't necessarily prove whether the Barge you gained from the trash is the same one you played at the beginning of the turn? But I don't know how the rules shake out about this. Is Jeebus's "loading" concept relevant here?

Hmm, I guess it's a question of whether the Duration rule (about leaving cards in play) is tracking the Barge, and whether it knows that it's the same Barge. I would assume that it doesn't know, that it "lost track" the moment the Barge was trashed.

It's maybe somehow related to the topic in this thread: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20088.0
« Last Edit: June 14, 2021, 02:01:52 pm by Jeebus »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Throne Room + Durable Mouse
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2021, 02:24:40 pm »
+2

Say, here's a related question, which is probably never going to come up in a real game.

Play a Barge, opting for draw next turn. Then trash the played Barge with Bonfire, and then via Villa–Graverobber–Vassal or whatever, regain the trashed Barge and play it again for draw immediately. Does the Barge stay in play? That Barge is in play now and is doing something on the next turn.

Probably not, right? Since you can't necessarily prove whether the Barge you gained from the trash is the same one you played at the beginning of the turn? But I don't know how the rules shake out about this. Is Jeebus's "loading" concept relevant here?

Hmm, I guess it's a question of whether the Duration rule (about leaving cards in play) is tracking the Barge, and whether it knows that it's the same Barge. I would assume that it doesn't know, that it "lost track" the moment the Barge was trashed.

It's maybe somehow related to the topic in this thread: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20088.0

Yeah, I feel like it's the same question over when is a card "that card". And I still think that the best answer is to adopt some form of the MTG rule:

400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence.

As a general rule in games, we should never care about when a physical component is the same physical component as before or not. If I roll a "5" on a die and then grab a replacement die and set it to "5" as a reminder so that I can use the original die for rolling something else; no game rule in any game should care if the die that's now set to a "5" is the same one I rolled or not. And if a rule says something like "if a '5' was rolled on that die previously..." then it should never matter whether the same physical die was used or not.

And same thing here; if a rule would ever be different based on whether the Barge that you're asking about was the same physical card as a Barge that mattered earlier, then that's a bad rule. A good rule would define the "Barge" that you're talking about based on the current information we care about. Thus, the Barge that's still doing something next turn should be never considered the same as the Barge that's not doing something next turn in this situation.
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Donald X.

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Re: Throne Room + Durable Mouse
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2021, 12:51:46 pm »
+1

Yeah, I feel like it's the same question over when is a card "that card". And I still think that the best answer is to adopt some form of the MTG rule:

400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence.

As a general rule in games, we should never care about when a physical component is the same physical component as before or not. If I roll a "5" on a die and then grab a replacement die and set it to "5" as a reminder so that I can use the original die for rolling something else; no game rule in any game should care if the die that's now set to a "5" is the same one I rolled or not. And if a rule says something like "if a '5' was rolled on that die previously..." then it should never matter whether the same physical die was used or not.

And same thing here; if a rule would ever be different based on whether the Barge that you're asking about was the same physical card as a Barge that mattered earlier, then that's a bad rule. A good rule would define the "Barge" that you're talking about based on the current information we care about. Thus, the Barge that's still doing something next turn should be never considered the same as the Barge that's not doing something next turn in this situation.
Correct. If a card wanders off, we can't say that it's "that card" still; we can create situations where we couldn't say, so the answer has to be that it isn't.
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Jeebus

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Re: Throne Room + Durable Mouse
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2021, 04:49:04 am »
+1

I want to rephrase Ingix's Overlord+Gear scenario, which is a clearer representation of CaptainTheo's Pawn/Mouse/Cargoship question.

Play Overlord1 & Gear, set aside cards. Play Overlord2 & the same Gear, don't set aside cards.
Overlord2 played a Gear that "would have" stayed in play because of Overlord1, but not because of Overlord2. Does Overlord2 stay?


The Gear never wandered off, so what Donald just wrote doesn't cover it.

The intention has to be that Overlord2 doesn't stay, and I tried to reason out why earlier in this thread. But it would be nice if Donald could explain this one.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2021, 04:51:48 am by Jeebus »
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Donald X.

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Re: Throne Room + Durable Mouse
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2021, 11:36:16 am »
+2

I want to rephrase Ingix's Overlord+Gear scenario, which is a clearer representation of CaptainTheo's Pawn/Mouse/Cargoship question.

Play Overlord1 & Gear, set aside cards. Play Overlord2 & the same Gear, don't set aside cards.
Overlord2 played a Gear that "would have" stayed in play because of Overlord1, but not because of Overlord2. Does Overlord2 stay?


The Gear never wandered off, so what Donald just wrote doesn't cover it.

The intention has to be that Overlord2 doesn't stay, and I tried to reason out why earlier in this thread. But it would be nice if Donald could explain this one.
It has to be: leave the "play a card, leaving it there" card in play for as long as the played card would have stayed in play *due to that play of it*. Overlord2 does not stay in play because Gear wouldn't have stayed in play due to that play of it.
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