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Author Topic: Dominion Champions: A [WIP] fan set by Marpharos  (Read 1177 times)

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Marpharos

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Dominion Champions: A [WIP] fan set by Marpharos
« on: May 09, 2021, 08:32:28 pm »
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Dominion Champions

This is an idea I've been sat on for a long time to bring more fantasy into Dominion. Nocturne touched on it, but I thought more could be done with the themes. This is very much still pre-playtesting, but the core idea is there. This is also my first time posting anything other than a weekly card idea (which I've not done for a while), so excuse any formatting inconsistencies/errors. So what makes my attempt at the fantastical different? A new card type:

Monsters

Monsters are found within a designated kingdom pile, often between a split pile. I recommend one Monster pile per game, but that isn't a hard and fast rule. These kingdom cards are labeled with the Adventurers type too, to help tell what piles will have a monster in them. There is usually one Monster card in the split pile, making them a total of 11 cards in the pile.

The split pile introduces a new resource to collect, Raiders, which are collected (as coin tokens) to a Raider's mat. You commit these Raiders to battle the Monster in the new phase of the game imaginatively called the Raiding Phase, joining forces with the neighboring kingdoms to destroy the opponent. During the Raiding phase, you check whether the Monster has been defeated by counting the Raiders on everyone's mats. If there are enough Raiders across each player's mats, the Monster is defeated and in celebration, it is flipped over to reveal the prize each player receives immediately.

So a turn would now look like this:

Action, Raiding, Buy, Night, Clean-up.

Raiders committed to battling the Monster aren't lost when they've been defeated, and each player will generally gain something from taking part in the battle with the Monster. Once the Monster has been defeated, the remaining half of the split pile becomes available.

So what's so interesting about the Monsters themselves? Design-wise, they are a double-sided landscape-type card placed within a Kingdom pile. The landscape cards already available are either Actions (events and ways) or Victory cards (landmarks). Monsters are landscape Attacks. They affect each player during their turn in some regard. Some might even be helpful, given the right kingdom!

Some card examples that I have created so far, starting with the Young Hero/Laureate. There are five Young Heroes on top, five Laureates on the bottom, and a Goliath in the middle.







The symbols are a WIP and a sour reminder of how incapable I am with graphic design. The Goliath requires 10 Raiders to be defeated, no coin is required to defeat any of these Monsters. Working within my technical capabilities, this was the clearest way I could think to represent the requirements. Choosing other symbols meant the text was hard to read.

Hopefully, the idea behind these cards is clear enough for the remaining examples I've created. I'm not 100% happy with the wordings on some cards, but as I said, it's a WIP. In some cases, I've created a Monster or part of a card. Part of me wanting to upload this in such an unfinished state is to share my idea for this mechanic with people who might enjoy it. The other reason is that what I think is a good idea / balanced is not always correct.

I would love any and all feedback on this idea, from theme to mechanic to execution. Also, if anyone can point me towards better symbols or ways to present the information let me know.

It's about time I shared some of these:

Divination Camp / Centaur / Archer









Embezzler / Demon / Warlock









Unnamed Vassal / Genie / Unnamed Throne
- The themes for this one is clear, I've just not been able to think of suitable names yet... Also, players who have Raiders will just gain 3 wishes on defeat









Fledgling Party / Goblins / Experienced Party
- This is one where I imagined there would be more than one Monster in the pile, one being shuffled in randomly to the Fledgling Party half (other than the top card of course) and one shuffled into the Experienced Party. Otherwise, the cheap cost on the Goblins didn't seem worth it. Also, This is one of the situations that made me want players to discard committed Raiders when a Monster is defeated, and to distinguish between committed and reserve Raiders.









Undecided Split Pile / Harpy / Undecided Split Pile





Ship Building / Mermaid / Shipyard









Hired Hands / Ogre / Reward









Conscription / Phoenix / Restore









Undecided Split Pile / Sorceress / Undecided Split Pile





Weaponsmith / Tanuki / Negotiator









Missionary / Zombie Overlord (Mindless Zombies) / Village Defense
- I guess there may be the same number of Mindless Zombies as Curses in any given game? That seems to make sense.











Caving (Should be Adventurer type)/ Arachnid / Tapestry









Drawbridge (Requires an actual action )/ Giant Rat (Vermin should be an Action / Piper
- Vermin are like Ruins, except they never run out. After all, Rats do multiply faster than anyone wants!











Resourceful Village / Dragon With Dragon's Lair / Loot
- Arguably my most ambitious creation, and also the one I'm least convinced about the actual execution for.









-

That's the end of them so far, let me know what you think!
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bootymancer

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Re: Dominion Champions: A [WIP] fan set by Marpharos
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2021, 04:50:28 am »
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Big fan of introducing a mechanic which involves all players. I quite like the feeling of shared threat that the Monsters evoke. Plus, wailing on Monsters sounds like a good time!

Actual feedback:
Monsters- a little nit-picky but the 'Once Defeated' clause strikes me as redundant (to see the Defeated Monster you have to, well, Defeat the Monster to flip it over). Maybe kick it to the front with something like: 'When this Monster is Defeated, flip it'?

First blush is that you've got your work cut out for you. A mechanic like this seems really hard to nail down across different player counts/number and efficacy of Raider-producing cards.

I'd like to take some more time to process the piles on a more case-by-case basis, but in the mean-time scaling Defeat costs with player count might be worth considering.
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emtzalex

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Re: Dominion Champions: A [WIP] fan set by Marpharos
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2021, 02:45:26 pm »
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Like bootymancer, I really like this concept, at least in theory. I've just barely skimmed a few of these, and so far have come up with few generalized comments/concerns:

It's not totally clear how many of the Monsters work. I think they need to be like Projects, and each mechanic they have has to explain (a)what happens, (b) when it happens, and (unlike Projects, which happen to the one who buys them) (c) to whom. For example, with Sorceress, it is not clear who gains the Curse, or when.

I think you need to think about what happens if enough Raiders are added to mats to defeat a Monster before it is revealed. That would potentially turn the Monster into a single-turn attack.

Similarly, you need to think about whether each card on top of the split pile is useful enough for it to be bought out. For example, Young Hero is a single-card terminal trasher that (unless and until Goliath is revealed) gives you nothing back. It would be hard to justify buying more than one of those, but in a 2-player game, someone would have to buy (at least) 3 before Goliath showed up.
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Thanks to Shard of Honor for his Extended Version of the Dominion Card Image Generator, which I use to mock up my fan cards, and to Violet CLM, who made the original.

emtzalex

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Re: Dominion Champions: A [WIP] fan set by Marpharos
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2021, 03:12:52 am »
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There is so much going on here, it is hard to know where to start.

I want to begin with taking a broad view of what playing one of these piles will look like. The game will basically divide into three sections: (1) the early portion, when players can buy (and subsequently play) the top split-pile card, but are not affected by the Monster's ability; (2) the Monster portion, which starts after the last top card is gained, when players are affected by the Monster; and (3) the late portion, which starts with the player(s) receiving the reward for defeating the Monster, after which the players can buy (and play) the bottom split-pile card, and can continue to play the top card.

I think in designing the cards, it's going to be really important to think about what the game looks like in each of these potions. If getting the Adventurer card makes play slow and cumbersome in the early section, that could slow players from gaining the rest of the Adventurers and moving the game along. It might even cause a player not to gain any Adventurers at all.

If a player doesn't like the Adventurer card, and can design a deck to be relatively unaffected by the Monster, then that player can ignore the mechanic completely. That's not entirely a bad thing, but if it forces the other player (who opened with two Adventurers and therefore is somewhat stuck) to buy the rest of the Adventurers and kill the Monster herself, the reward had better be substantial, or playing those Kingdom cards will become a losing strategy.

Design-wise, they are a double-sided landscape-type card placed within a Kingdom pile.

So, right of the bat, it is worth pointing out that in the official game, there is no such thing as a "landscapes-type cards" because under the official rules, landscapes are explicitly not "cards" as that word is used. The main effect of this is that cards like Bridge or Highway which makes "cards cost . . . less this turn" do not effect the price of Events or Projects. That's obviously not a problem here, as the only "cost" of the Monsters in in raiders, which are not going to be discounted. However, given the fact that some Monsters (like Goliath and Centaur) affect what "cards" do, you need to clarify if other Monsters (and their rewards) are "cards" (especially if you are not going to make the 1 Monster per Kingdom a rule).

It also seems (for lack of a better phrase) physically strange for a landscape to be in the middle of a pile of portrait-aligned Kingdom cards. How would that even work? Would you rotate the pile 90 degrees when the Monster emerged, then turn it back when it is defeated?

I'm not sure I have a great suggestion about what to do here. The obvious possibility is to rotate the Monsters and make them regularly aligned cards, but I don't think I like that solution. I just think you need to be really clear about what they are and how they work.


The split pile introduces a new resource to collect, Raiders, which are collected (as coin tokens) to a Raider's mat. You commit these Raiders to battle the Monster in the new phase of the game imaginatively called the Raiding Phase, joining forces with the neighboring kingdoms to destroy the opponent. During the Raiding phase, you check whether the Monster has been defeated by counting the Raiders on everyone's mats. If there are enough Raiders across each player's mats, the Monster is defeated and in celebration, it is flipped over to reveal the prize each player receives immediately.

Aside from a provincial distaste for the name "Raiders" I personally hold due to a local sports rivalry (which should have no influence on these cards' design), I do have some possible issues with the Raiding phase. As you state, all that happens during that phase is that "you check whether the Monster has been defeated by counting the Raiders on everyone's mats." Moreover, this does not even happen every turn, as you only check during the portion of the game during which the Monster is active. It is entirely possible that the first time you do this check during the very first active Raiding phase (after the Monster is revealed), you will find there are enough Raiders committed, defeat the Monster, and never check again. To have a phase for something that may well happen only once seems unnecessary. Thus, my inclination is not to have a Raiding phase, at least not if you leave the process of defeating Monsters as it is.

I also have a bit of trouble with the concept of Raiders being "committed." My understanding is that every Raider you gain is committed to battling the monster. Does this mean that if I have 10 Raiders and my opponent (in a two player game) has 6 when I buy the last Hired Hand, that after his next Action phase I would get +10 Cards, and at the end of the turn he would get +6? Even though the Ogre only took 5 Raiders to defeat?

This brings me to a more radical suggestion, which I am not totally certain is the best idea, but something I want to put out there. Rather than just checking whether the total number of Raiders is enough to kill the Monster, once the Monster is active, then during your Raiding phase you actually make the choice of how many Raiders (if any) to commit to the attack, and actually set those aside (maybe on a different part of the mat), possibly with some limitations. Those Raiders are spent when the Monster is killed. This would probably require upping the reward, but could make who kills the Monster less dependent on who happens to buy the last Adventurer, and offers strategic choices about how many Raiders you actually want to commit (and maybe there are limitations to how many you can commit each turn).



Before I get into the individual cards, I want to point out that I think it is going to be EXTREMELY IMPORTANT for you to work out a specific syntax for how these cards work and stick to it. You will need a term for when a Monster is revealed, etc. So, for example, Young Hero says "Gain one (+---) per . . . " whereas Divination Camp as "+ (+---)" With official cards, "gain" usually refers to getting a card, whereas when you get resources represented by tokens (Coffers, Villagers, VP tokens), a "+" is used. Thus, Divination Camp is probably the better bet, but you should fix Young Hero.

Also, most of the cards say "+1(+---)," but Divination Camp and Shipbuilding do not.








Young Hero -- I have real concerns that this card is just too weak to justify getting it early, meaning players will frequently opt out of going for this pile altogether. This is especially true if there is strong terminal drawing on the board. A Smithy-Big Money deck would likely be buying Provinces well before its opponent slew Goliath.

Goliath -- I get the general idea here. If you played a Village, you would get +1 Card +1 Action instead of +1 Card +2 Actions. However, the language is both not in line with what officials cards would say, and (in at least some cases) ambiguous. For example, if one played a Fishing Village, would the -1 Action apply to both the current turn and the "start of next turn" effect? Or would that be -2 Actions?












Centaur is pretty clear cut as it applies to basic draw cards, but how would it work with alterative drawing is much less clear. For example, if you played a Divination Camp, would you still guess and look? And if so, would you not keep the card if you guessed incorrectly? How would Wishing Well work? Would you forgo the initial +1 Card but get to keep the card if you guess right? Could you choose to flip that, keeping the guaranteed card but only looking at the other one? What about with Library? Do you only draw up to 6? What about Scrying Pool.

As to the Reward, was it your intention to penalize the player on whose turn the Centaur is defeated (and, unlike with the Ogre, draws immediately, after the end of their Action phase, (generally) drawing Action cards dead)? A possible alternative would be to give Horses instead of +Cards (which fits the Centaur theme).



It's very late where I am, so I am going to call it for now. I will keep at these, but with a lot of them it might help if you were to go through and explain what your thinking is behind them. That might help the feedback be more productive.
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Thanks to Shard of Honor for his Extended Version of the Dominion Card Image Generator, which I use to mock up my fan cards, and to Violet CLM, who made the original.

mathdude

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Re: Dominion Champions: A [WIP] fan set by Marpharos
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2021, 10:30:08 am »
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Regarding the Landscape Monster "card" - you could use the Bane maker as a template, rather than the Event/Project  template. The side words could say "Monster", the name of the monster, or 1 of each. And instead of the bottom of the pile like Bane, these would just sit horizontally in the middle of the pile.
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emtzalex

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Re: Dominion Champions: A [WIP] fan set by Marpharos
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2021, 12:51:01 am »
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So, rather than continue to analyze the existing cards, I made my own Monster pile to better illustrate some of the points I was trying to get at. Thus, Traveling Geats, Grendel, and Mead Hall:



 



The first card on the pile, Traveling Geats, is fairly affordable and able to be piled without clogging the deck. Grendel is a significant burden on players, that provides a strong incentive to want to end it, and the reward is a substantial benefit. The second pile makes use of the leftover +-- tokens.
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Thanks to Shard of Honor for his Extended Version of the Dominion Card Image Generator, which I use to mock up my fan cards, and to Violet CLM, who made the original.
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