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Author Topic: Fan Card Mechanics Contest week 9: too COOL for school  (Read 10097 times)

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fika monster

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Fan Card Mechanics Contest week 9: too COOL for school
« on: May 04, 2021, 03:47:49 am »
+7

I were looking through Spineflus "atlas of fancard mechanics", and i came across Gazbags "ice token".

What is "ice Tokens"?
A number of cards in the set involve setting aside cards and putting a number of Ice tokens on them, referred to as "freezing" them. At the start of your turn you remove 1 Ice token from each card you own that is frozen with Ice tokens on it and when the last token is removed you put the card into your discard pile.

pretty neat, i think. So  this weeks challenge is to come up with a WELP or card that uses ICE TOKENS.

heres a link to the Dominion: ICE AGE expansion http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=17996.msg736476#msg736476

My judging criteria will be:
Simplicity: the cards can be complex, but it should have a purpose. my preference is for simple cards, and i will be biased towards them, altough i will try to be fair.
theme (i like cards that tell a bit of a story)
Balance: is the card utterly broken or too weak? It's fine if the card is strong or centralizing, but agonizing decisions should be possible.
Innovation: Does the card evoke new interesting possibilities? is it exciting?


DEADLINE IS 2021 MAY 9th. timezone is UTC.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 03:52:13 am by fika monster »
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segura

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest week 9: too COOL for school
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2021, 06:51:47 am »
+3



Winter is coming. It is like Stables, but you gotta discard the good stuff and the good stuff cannot be redrawn this turn (this includes Clean-up and thus your next hand).
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naitchman

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest week 9: too COOL for school
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2021, 10:13:19 am »
0



Winter is coming. It is like Stables, but you gotta discard the good stuff and the good stuff cannot be redrawn this turn (this includes Clean-up and thus your next hand).

I think the word "Once" is unnecessary.
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segura

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest week 9: too COOL for school
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2021, 10:19:58 am »
+1

On the contrary, it is absolutely necessary as you can also freeze a card twice, thrice, four times and so on.
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naitchman

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest week 9: too COOL for school
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2021, 10:49:23 am »
0

On the contrary, it is absolutely necessary as you can also freeze a card twice, thrice, four times and so on.

I don't really understand. Can you give a case where 'once' will make difference?

you can't freeze a card twice from your hand since it will not be in your hand anymore. Does it mean 'once' as in you can't freeze with two scouts?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest week 9: too COOL for school
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2021, 10:55:27 am »
0

If "once" is intended to mean "with one ice token", then the latter is the wording used in the actual fan expansion. Igloo says "You may freeze this with 3 Ice tokens".
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naitchman

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest week 9: too COOL for school
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2021, 11:00:43 am »
+1

If "once" is intended to mean "with one ice token", then the latter is the wording used in the actual fan expansion. Igloo says "You may freeze this with 3 Ice tokens".

You are probably right. I did not even notice that it did not say how many ice tokens.
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DunnoItAll

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest week 9: too COOL for school
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2021, 11:31:27 am »
+4



Having messed with this mechanic a lot (we play games with the Ice Age expansion a lot, I have implemented this mechanic in my own expansions), one of the things I've found is that it can be annoying to remember/easy to forget to remove ice tokens at the start of your turns. This card helps with that by giving you more incentive to remember to do it.  It acts as a temporary Hireling, but has a nice on-play effect as well: the +$2 obviously, but a little Cellar (or what I always think of is Recycle Station from Star Realms) action, too: discard up to 2 cards and draw that many, but that comes with the side-effect of weakening your Hireling effect. Toyed with making it cost $6 like Hireling, but I don't think the on-play effects quite make up for the lack of permanence, though I think it's close.

Interested in what everyone thinks of this card.

*updated price
*updated to add description
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 05:49:38 pm by DunnoItAll »
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segura

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest week 9: too COOL for school
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2021, 11:46:25 am »
0

On the contrary, it is absolutely necessary as you can also freeze a card twice, thrice, four times and so on.

I don't really understand. Can you give a case where 'once' will make difference?

you can't freeze a card twice from your hand since it will not be in your hand anymore. Does it mean 'once' as in you can't freeze with two scouts?
„Freeze x y times“ is a compact wording I use and prefer to „put y Ice tokens on x“ or whatever.
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Timinou

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest week 9: too COOL for school
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2021, 12:43:45 pm »
0

This is such a cool mechanic!  I'm looking forward to seeing all the different entries, and hopefully I can come up with a decent one.
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DunnoItAll

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest week 9: too COOL for school
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2021, 12:48:48 pm »
0

This is such a cool mechanic!  I'm looking forward to seeing all the different entries, and hopefully I can come up with a decent one.

I'm a fan also.  I experimented with it a little bit in one of my expansions.  The first 6 cards all use this mechanic:

https://dominion-fantasy.weebly.com/
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silverspawn

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest week 9: too COOL for school
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2021, 02:07:07 pm »
+2



Btw, I quite like this mechanic. In fact, my expansion had something very similar but without using the mechanic. Unfortunately, the card kind of sucked and I eventually took it out. But I think the fault was not with the extended-discard idea but with the fact that the card was too weak and did nothing else. To improve on that, I made this one a sort of Village. On the one hand, it's a pretty shitty trasher, but on the other, having your +Actions and deck thinning on the same card should be quite nice.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 04:25:04 pm by silverspawn »
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Timinou

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest week 9: too COOL for school
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2021, 02:16:55 pm »
+3

This is such a cool mechanic!  I'm looking forward to seeing all the different entries, and hopefully I can come up with a decent one.

I'm a fan also.  I experimented with it a little bit in one of my expansions.  The first 6 cards all use this mechanic:

https://dominion-fantasy.weebly.com/

Yeah, I think I remember some of those from when you posted them on Discord.


Anyway, my half-serious submission:



I've taken a page from segura's book to say "Freeze this twice" instead of saying "Freeze this with 2 Ice Tokens".
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spineflu

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest week 9: too COOL for school
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2021, 03:23:11 pm »
+2

This might be busted with the way some freezing cards work;



Quote
Glacial Village • $4 • Action
+2 Actions
You may freeze a card from your hand with 1 Ice token.

For each Ice token on your frozen cards, +1 Card
-
When you buy this, freeze it with 2 Ice tokens.
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naitchman

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest week 9: too COOL for school
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2021, 03:24:57 pm »
+1

Ok Here is my card (Please read the note lower down)


Theme: Straight from the lab, the alchemist has invented a solution to help thaw things faster, however it takes time to make more.

IMPORTANT NOTE: I think the ice token mechanic is overall fine. The only problem is that it discards cards at the beginning of your turn. That means the first ice token doesn't do much (instead discarding at the end of your turn, you discard at the beginning of your next, which usually doesn't make too much of a difference). The other big problem is that it cause cards to miss the shuffle. With this card in particular (with the original rules as is) it's hard to make it work no matter how many ice tokens you put on it:
1 ice token: Can have infinite loops
2 ice tokens (my original thought): If you have a chain of them and use them to remove the other ice tokens, each will have one at the end of the turn and will come back at the beginning of your next which is pretty much a lab.
3 ice tokens (the not so great solution): Ok so add one ice token and everything's fine right? Not really. Labs tend to be in decks meant to draw your deck, thus the turn before you get them back, you likely triggered a reshuffle when drawing your starting hand, meaning frozen cards will likely go into an empty discard pile. Even if your deck was still strong enough to draw to them, it would be pointless because at that point you've already drawn all of your payload. It would have this really staggered and weak lab effect.

Solution: Ice token rule change - When you remove the last ice token from a card, discard that card at the end of that turn.

This does pretty much the same (just with one less ice token) except you get to shuffle the incoming cards into your deck, and have a chance at drawing them.

Fika, can you confirm that you are ok with this rule change?
I am just using this rule change for my own card. Feel free to adopt it or ignore it.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 03:26:06 pm by naitchman »
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fika monster

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest week 9: too COOL for school
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2021, 04:02:29 pm »
0

Ok Here is my card (Please read the note lower down)


Fika, can you confirm that you are ok with this rule change?
I am just using this rule change for my own card. Feel free to adopt it or ignore it.

I cant speak for the original author, but if you do it for your own card, that's fine.i don't mind if others do this as well: just write that you have that rule change under the card if this is what you feel is best design wise
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GendoIkari

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest week 9: too COOL for school
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2021, 08:18:05 pm »
+2

On the contrary, it is absolutely necessary as you can also freeze a card twice, thrice, four times and so on.

I don't really understand. Can you give a case where 'once' will make difference?

you can't freeze a card twice from your hand since it will not be in your hand anymore. Does it mean 'once' as in you can't freeze with two scouts?
„Freeze x y times“ is a compact wording I use and prefer to „put y Ice tokens on x“ or whatever.

The problem with the compact version of the wording is that it's ambiguous and goes against existing cards like King's Court... [do X] [three times] is already used to mean the same as [do X][do X][do X]. In this case, the "X" would be "freeze the card", which as far as I can tell from the original expansion is defined to mean "set it aside".

It could work fine if "freeze X" were defined to "if X is not set aside, set it aside. Either way, add 1 ice token to it". That definition could work fine, and in that case "freeze X three times" would have the same effect as "freeze X with 3 ice counters on it". But as it is, "freeze X three times" seems to mean something different than the normal "do X three times" means.
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The Alchemist

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest week 9: too COOL for school
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2021, 10:33:08 pm »
0

Sorry if I missed the memo but when did we decide to start doing separate forum posts instead of continuing the Fan Card Mechanic post?
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest week 9: too COOL for school
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2021, 12:47:11 am »
0

Is it "put in your discard pile", or "discard" (Like Exile)?

Similarly would gaining a card from the supply and freezing it be "gain and Freeze", or just "Freeze"?
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Aquila

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest week 9: too COOL for school
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2021, 04:04:30 am »
+3

This mechanic feels like it has a lot of potential! There's a lot it can achieve that Durations or Reserves can't, whilst the timed aspect distinguishes it from Exile.

One snag I remember being discussed is the sheer number of tokens potentially needed; even if dice were used instead of tokens, there is still a large amount of freezing potential to account for. I think the best solution reached was a Freeze mat, with spaces on it forming a countdown track? 'Freeze X times' would mean put the card (set it aside) on the relevant space on the mat. All you'd have to do is shunt the piles on each space along at the start of each turn. It would imply a limit to the number of times cards could be frozen, but that's probably for the best.

IMPORTANT NOTE: I think the ice token mechanic is overall fine. The only problem is that it discards cards at the beginning of your turn. That means the first ice token doesn't do much (instead discarding at the end of your turn, you discard at the beginning of your next, which usually doesn't make too much of a difference). The other big problem is that it cause cards to miss the shuffle. With this card in particular (with the original rules as is) it's hard to make it work no matter how many ice tokens you put on it:
1 ice token: Can have infinite loops
2 ice tokens (my original thought): If you have a chain of them and use them to remove the other ice tokens, each will have one at the end of the turn and will come back at the beginning of your next which is pretty much a lab.
3 ice tokens (the not so great solution): Ok so add one ice token and everything's fine right? Not really. Labs tend to be in decks meant to draw your deck, thus the turn before you get them back, you likely triggered a reshuffle when drawing your starting hand, meaning frozen cards will likely go into an empty discard pile. Even if your deck was still strong enough to draw to them, it would be pointless because at that point you've already drawn all of your payload. It would have this really staggered and weak lab effect.

Solution: Ice token rule change - When you remove the last ice token from a card, discard that card at the end of that turn.

This does pretty much the same (just with one less ice token) except you get to shuffle the incoming cards into your deck, and have a chance at drawing them.
So cards 'naturally thawed' at turn start would also wait until turn end to be discarded? That would mean one Freeze keeps a card out of deck for 1-and-a-bit turns, which would affect the usefulness of something like segura's Scout heavily. You could add an extra clause to this card, 'you may thaw one of your cards once; if it's then on 0, discard it at end of turn' (to use Freeze mat terms).
On the one hand, this rule change lets thawing cards work, and freeze once is a more significant delay; on the other, it's a little more confusing, since hitting 0 implies the wait is over then. The rule could be printed on the mat though...
So, I guess I'm overall in favour of this change.

So my entry will use it too:

Quote
Glaciate - Action, $3 cost.
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a non-Victory card costing purely $, freezing it once per $1 it costs more than the trashed card.
Remodel where the only limitation is Victory cards, but the bigger step-up in cost you go, the longer you have to wait. Trim down your deck early, ready for the power to come in later.
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segura

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest week 9: too COOL for school
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2021, 06:36:35 am »
0

On the contrary, it is absolutely necessary as you can also freeze a card twice, thrice, four times and so on.

I don't really understand. Can you give a case where 'once' will make difference?

you can't freeze a card twice from your hand since it will not be in your hand anymore. Does it mean 'once' as in you can't freeze with two scouts?
„Freeze x y times“ is a compact wording I use and prefer to „put y Ice tokens on x“ or whatever.

The problem with the compact version of the wording is that it's ambiguous and goes against existing cards like King's Court... [do X] [three times] is already used to mean the same as [do X][do X][do X]. In this case, the "X" would be "freeze the card", which as far as I can tell from the original expansion is defined to mean "set it aside".

It could work fine if "freeze X" were defined to "if X is not set aside, set it aside. Either way, add 1 ice token to it". That definition could work fine, and in that case "freeze X three times" would have the same effect as "freeze X with 3 ice counters on it". But as it is, "freeze X three times" seems to mean something different than the normal "do X three times" means.
„Freeze card x y times“ means literally the same as „put y Ice tokens on card x“. It is a crystal clear wording and has nothing to do with KC. That card says „play an Action card three times“.

It is basically the same as +x Coffers vs. take x Coin tokens. Both wordings are fine and unambiguous but one is shorter.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 06:39:07 am by segura »
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segura

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest week 9: too COOL for school
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2021, 07:34:36 am »
0



Btw, I quite like this mechanic. In fact, my expansion had something very similar but without using the mechanic. Unfortunately, the card kind of sucked and I eventually took it out. But I think the fault was not with the extended-discard idea but with the fact that the card was too weak and did nothing else. To improve on that, I made this one a sort of Village. On the one hand, it's a pretty shitty trasher, but on the other, having your +Actions and deck thinning on the same card should be quite nice.
This looks like a weaker version of Exile, or in other words, among all cards so far this ihre closest implementation of freeze to Exile. I think it is a bit too weak, a Necro that Exiles seems far worse than Sanctuary and Bounty Hunter and this card is nearly strictly worse than Exile.
One trick though is freezing Curses that you got early. With Exile they are forever in nirvana, here you might be able (it is not easy to pull off though) to freeze them and later trash them.
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naitchman

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest week 9: too COOL for school
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2021, 08:27:06 am »
0

So cards 'naturally thawed' at turn start would also wait until turn end to be discarded? That would mean one Freeze keeps a card out of deck for 1-and-a-bit turns, which would affect the usefulness of something like segura's Scout heavily.

The ice tokens are basically a countdown tracker which is something dominion doesn't really have a way to track. As the rule was originally, one ice token is mostly the same as, "set aside this card. If you do, at the end of this turn, put it in your discard pile", which is something dominion cards can do without the mechanic. So if you want to delay cards for just this turn, use that wording, and if more, use ice tokens.

Segura's card could be worded this way without using ice tokens, though like I said, everyone is free to ignore it or adopt it; I just thought it worked better with my card.
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silverspawn

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest week 9: too COOL for school
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2021, 10:27:33 am »
0

I agree that it's a weaker version of Exile and that a Necropolis that does this is weaker than bounty hunter and Sanctuary. But Bounty Hunter and Sanctuary are both very strong, so I think that's fine. You can have deck thinning that's much weaker than either of them without having something too weak to be playable. I tend to like weak trashers and junkers.

segura

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest week 9: too COOL for school
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2021, 01:25:47 pm »
+1

I agree that it's a weaker version of Exile and that a Necropolis that does this is weaker than bounty hunter and Sanctuary. But Bounty Hunter and Sanctuary are both very strong, so I think that's fine. You can have deck thinning that's much weaker than either of them without having something too weak to be playable. I tend to like weak trashers and junkers.
I think it is a $2 or $3. Take Raze, after the first shuffling, I’d rather lose that VP for some draw and sifting than not. Of in many other situations, your card is better than Raze as you always get an extra Action and can pseudoexile green. But I think this opening situation illustrates the serious weakness of a non-drawing card.
Plus, my hunch is that you might need two copies to keep the junk and green permafrozen.
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