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Author Topic: Fan Card Mechanics Contest Week 8: Under the Seeeeea  (Read 6144 times)

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Mahowrath

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Fan Card Mechanics Contest Week 8: Under the Seeeeea
« on: April 23, 2021, 07:34:49 pm »
+6

Week 8; continuing from previous Fan Card Mechanics Contests, indexed here

Fan Card Mechanics Contest Week 8: Under the Seeeeea

This week, I'm pushing my fancard mechanic, the Aquatic/Subdeck card subtype (please excuse the mistakes, these were from my first fancard set):
Piranhas: Pile size 20

These cards, typically Actions, have the effect: "This is gained and discarded this from play to the bottom of your deck". Following discussion, you are free to implement this effect however you wish - explicitly, as a new type, or otherwise. In ShardOfHonor's card generator, I have so far used the primary colour 1,1,1.15, and half split with the usual Action colour on top.
This is functionally similar to silverspawn's Village Outpost's "When you shuffle your deck, put this on top afterward", though sometimes you can avoid the shuffle completely. Needless to say, your Aquatic cards will frequently clash.

I'm looking for card-shaped suggestions that in some way make use of the Aquatic subtype mechanic, (or if that turns out to be too narrow, generally contribute to a bottom-decked ecosystem).
Contest closes Saturday 1st May, 11am GMT

edit: these cards as a non-explicit "subdeck" type, with a whole 0.5,1,2 colouring:

« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 08:34:49 am by Mahowrath »
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mxdata

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest Week 8: Under the Seeeeea
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2021, 07:47:20 pm »
+1

Week 8; continuing from previous Fan Card Mechanics Contests, indexed here

Fan Card Mechanics Contest Week 8: Under the Seeeeea

This week, I'm pushing my fancard mechanic, the Aquatic card subtype (please excuse the mistakes, these were from my first fancard set):
Piranhas: Pile size 20

These cards, typically Actions, have the text: "This is gained and discarded this from play to the bottom of your deck" (which can potentially be omitted/contracted for this contest). In ShardOfHonor's card generator, I have used the primary colour 1,1,1.15, and half split with the usual action colour on top.
This is functionally similar to silverspawn's Village Outpost's "When you shuffle your deck, put this on top afterward", though sometimes you can avoid the shuffle completely. Needless to say, your Aquatic cards will frequently clash.

I'm looking for card-shaped suggestions that in some way make use of the Aquatic subtype mechanic, (or if that turns out to be too narrow, generally contribute to a bottom-decked ecosystem).
Contest closes Saturday 1st May, 11am GMT

Is that below-the-line text what defines the category?  In that case, I'd definitely say they should be omitted - that would simply be included in the rulebook for the Aquatic type

Also, for clarification: If you have no draw pile, would it work the same as top-decking to an empty draw pile?  I'm assuming the answer is yes, but I want to make sure
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 07:49:00 pm by mxdata »
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mxdata

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest Week 8: Under the Seeeeea
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2021, 07:57:44 pm »
+1



Spongebob
Action - Victory - Aquatic
Place this on your Pineapple mat
-
Worth 4 VP

(This is just a joke, not my actual entry)
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Mahowrath

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest Week 8: Under the Seeeeea
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2021, 08:08:30 pm »
+1

Is that below-the-line text what defines the category?  In that case, I'd definitely say they should be omitted - that would simply be included in the rulebook for the Aquatic type

Also, for clarification: If you have no draw pile, would it work the same as top-decking to an empty draw pile?  I'm assuming the answer is yes, but I want to make sure

  • Yes, bottom-decking defines the category, feel free to omit the accompanying text in your entries.
  • Good question. I've so far interpreted as topdeck in the absence of a deck. By default, I will be assuming this when judging cards.

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mxdata

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest Week 8: Under the Seeeeea
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2021, 12:53:44 am »
+4


Quote
Kraken
Action - Aquatic - Attack
+3 Cards
Each other player reveals the bottom 3 cards of their deck, discards the Actions and Treasures, and puts the rest back in any order they choose.
-
This is gained and discarded from play to the bottom of your deck.
A Rabble variant which indirectly targets Aquatic cards by forcing players to discard from the bottom of their deck.  I kept the same "Actions and Treasures" wording from Rabble both to keep it strong in games with no other Aquatic cards and in case there might be any Treasure - Aquatic cards.  Should there be any Night - Aquatic cards, of course, those would be immune to Kraken's attack.  On the one hand, in a game with other Aquatic cards, this could be more powerful than Rabble, but on the other hand, it's also weaker in that the effects of the attack are delayed.  Overall, I suspect it would have a power level similar to Rabble

I had initially thought you wouldn't need the Aquatic clause on the bottom, but on further thought, I think it might be necessary.  Otherwise, there's nothing on the card text to tell a player that there's anything special about the "Aquatic" type, so they might not even think about checking the rulebook to see what "Aquatic" means
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Aquila

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest Week 8: Under the Seeeeea
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2021, 03:12:17 am »
+5

If we follow the design rules of the official cards as closely as possible, there would neither be an Aquatic type or a different colour scheme, just the below line text 'this is gained and discarded from play to the bottom of your deck'. New types are used when a card's text needs to refer to that type (Knights refer to themselves, Defiled Shrine refers to Gathering), or there are rules that make the card behave in an unusual way (Reserve, Duration) or cards with that type have a common extra setup rule (Looter needs the right number of Ruins got out the box, shuffled). Different colours are visible reminders of unusual behaviour.
So unless a card exists which needs to refer to Aquatic cards, none of these criteria are met. It's just the same as Nomad Camp's 'this is gained to the top of your deck' in essence.
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silverspawn

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest Week 8: Under the Seeeeea
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2021, 03:13:55 am »
+4

If you have the text, then there's really no reason to have a new type. The reason for the type would be so that you ca omit the text, which I think is reasonable.

The reminder is the coloring.

Edit: sorta ninjad

mxdata

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest Week 8: Under the Seeeeea
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2021, 04:14:41 am »
+2

If we follow the design rules of the official cards as closely as possible, there would neither be an Aquatic type or a different colour scheme, just the below line text 'this is gained and discarded from play to the bottom of your deck'. New types are used when a card's text needs to refer to that type (Knights refer to themselves, Defiled Shrine refers to Gathering), or there are rules that make the card behave in an unusual way (Reserve, Duration) or cards with that type have a common extra setup rule (Looter needs the right number of Ruins got out the box, shuffled). Different colours are visible reminders of unusual behaviour.
So unless a card exists which needs to refer to Aquatic cards, none of these criteria are met. It's just the same as Nomad Camp's 'this is gained to the top of your deck' in essence.

Also, if you do go with a different color, you wouldn't expect it to have both the regular Action and the Aquatic coloring.  Other dual types with Action have just the other type's color, e.g., only orange for Action - Duration or only blue for Action - Reaction. The only time there's a double-coloring with Action is when a card can be played in two different phases, which among official cards is only Crown and Werewolf
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Mahowrath

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest Week 8: Under the Seeeeea
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2021, 07:40:37 am »
0

If we follow the design rules of the official cards as closely as possible, there would neither be an Aquatic type or a different colour scheme, just the below line text 'this is gained and discarded from play to the bottom of your deck'. New types are used when a card's text needs to refer to that type (Knights refer to themselves, Defiled Shrine refers to Gathering), or there are rules that make the card behave in an unusual way (Reserve, Duration) or cards with that type have a common extra setup rule (Looter needs the right number of Ruins got out the box, shuffled). Different colours are visible reminders of unusual behaviour.
So unless a card exists which needs to refer to Aquatic cards, none of these criteria are met. It's just the same as Nomad Camp's 'this is gained to the top of your deck' in essence.

I think a parallel could be made with Durations, which could be summarised with "this card stays in play until its effects are complete, along with any card that played it". Other than Durations, there are few cards with mandatory, potentially harmful cleanup operations: Capital's effects are felt close enough to cleanup that little reminder is needed, and relates to a single card.

At the time, I chose the text explanation to make the mechanic more accessible, and a blue half-colouring and "Aquatic" subtype name to work with my chosen flavour.
In hindsight, a full colouring, and a more self-explanatory type-name such as "bottomdecker" (or something more consise, "subdeck"?), would probably be more Dominiony.

I appreciate the feedback given here, and I'm happy to accept your preferred implementations of this mechanic on contest entries. I'll update the header post to reflect this.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 07:57:48 am by Mahowrath »
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mathdude

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest Week 8: Under the Seeeeea
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2021, 08:47:12 am »
+4

I agree with what's been said already. This is technically achievable with existing mechanics, but putting that wording below the line of every card gets very bulky and cumbersome (and imagine trying to make an Aquatic card that required other below-the-line text too). It seems fair, especially for a fan card mechanic, to call the card "Aquatic" and then be able to eliminate that text from the cards, and have the new colour as the reminder.

Speaking of colour, as with Duration, Reaction, Reserve, etc., I also believe the card should only have the new colour, rather than a mix with white. It would only use colour-blend if combined with Treasure, Victory, etc. And something like an Aquatic-Duration would probably use the "night blend" option like Night-Duration cards.

As for the mechanic itself, one could theoretically get themselves stuck (depending on the types of Aquatic cards in play) with a hand that gets played, discarded to the "bottom" of an empty deck, drawn again, and repeated. There would be an option to not  play one or some of the Aquatic cards, to "reset" the pile, but then that can weaken the cards if you have to not play them occasionally. On the other hand, getting 5 Aquatic cards which all have no "+Cards", and 4 of which have +Action, +$2... this will guarantee a Province every turn. So either this design of card needs to be carefully avoided (like a Festival), or we need a slight change to the Aquatic card Type.

 I would propose the following change, to defining the Aquatic card Type:
If you have at least 1 card in your draw pile, Aquatic cards are gained and discarded from play to the bottom of your deck. If your draw pile is empty, they go in your discard pile.

I think this leaves the design space for Aquatic cards a little more open. There is still the option of having 1 Aquatic card left in draw pile, gain an Aquatic card to the bottom, draw the 1 card that was there, play it, then buy a Province with coins strictly on Aquatic cards but that requires a perfect combination of Aquatic cards, likely including a village, gainer, 1 draw, and still having the right +Action and +$ .

PPE: ninja'ed!
I think your Duration comparison is perfect, and I agree. Also, I think "Aquatic" type is just fine - you don't need to change it to "Bottomdecker".
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Mahowrath

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest Week 8: Under the Seeeeea
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2021, 08:59:13 am »
+1

As for the mechanic itself, one could theoretically get themselves stuck (depending on the types of Aquatic cards in play) with a hand that gets played, discarded to the "bottom" of an empty deck, drawn again, and repeated. There would be an option to not  play one or some of the Aquatic cards, to "reset" the pile, but then that can weaken the cards if you have to not play them occasionally. On the other hand, getting 5 Aquatic cards which all have no "+Cards", and 4 of which have +Action, +$2... this will guarantee a Province every turn. So either this design of card needs to be carefully avoided (like a Festival), or we need a slight change to the Aquatic card Type.

 I would propose the following change, to defining the Aquatic card Type:
If you have at least 1 card in your draw pile, Aquatic cards are gained and discarded from play to the bottom of your deck. If your draw pile is empty, they go in your discard pile.

I would go with the careful design; I'm happy with aquatic golden-decks being a thing, but as with all card contests, one should carefully consider whether their card often creates a trivial winning strategy.
If I understand your proposed change correctly, it would just mean buying a 6th aquatic-festival, but feel free to play with the mechanic as you wish.
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mathdude

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest Week 8: Under the Seeeeea
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2021, 12:38:15 pm »
+1

I would go with the careful design; I'm happy with aquatic golden-decks being a thing, but as with all card contests, one should carefully consider whether their card often creates a trivial winning strategy.
If I understand your proposed change correctly, it would just mean buying a 6th aquatic-festival, but feel free to play with the mechanic as you wish.

You are right. A 6th Aquatic Festival of sorts breaks my recommendation and I didn't realize it.  Definitely stick with your original then, and we just need to make sure we don't make easy win conditions during card design.
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fika monster

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest Week 8: Under the Seeeeea
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2021, 03:24:35 pm »
+7

My submission




Quote
Poseidons gift
4$ event
Move your Aquatic token to an Action Supply pile. (during your turn, cards from that pile are Aquatic)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2021, 08:11:05 am by fika monster »
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bootymancer

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest Week 8: Under the Seeeeea
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2021, 03:32:44 pm »
+2



Quote
When you draw this card discard it to the bottom of your deck. Then, put the top card of your deck into your hand.

+3 Coffers
+1 Buy
-
This is gained and discarded from play to the bottom of your deck.

Long-time lurker, first time poster! Please pardon any formatting issues. Wanted to dive in with my take on the elusive prize that is a sunken treasure.

An under-costed Gold with upsides. The catch is in how infrequently it should see play. A card that always misses the shuffle unless the player can draw the last card of their deck is inherently swingy. Coffers and + Buy give the card some much needed flexibility (hitting more $ than needed on a turn that this sees play would feel bad). Multiple copies likely increase your chances of getting to play one, but playing more than one relies on a Kingdom with healthy draw and some finesse when the deck gets low. Also, consistency of the card might benefit from the order of play and/or gaining of other Aquatic cards (especially + Card(s) like Undercity, Mermaid, and Kraken above).

I'm satisfied with the card from a flavor standpoint, but I'm unsure of how interesting/viable something like this would be in practice.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 03:38:54 pm by bootymancer »
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mxdata

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest Week 8: Under the Seeeeea
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2021, 04:17:48 pm »
+1



Quote
When you draw this card discard it to the bottom of your deck. Then, put the top card of your deck into your hand.

+3 Coffers
+1 Buy
-
This is gained and discarded from play to the bottom of your deck.

Long-time lurker, first time poster! Please pardon any formatting issues. Wanted to dive in with my take on the elusive prize that is a sunken treasure.

An under-costed Gold with upsides. The catch is in how infrequently it should see play. A card that always misses the shuffle unless the player can draw the last card of their deck is inherently swingy. Coffers and + Buy give the card some much needed flexibility (hitting more $ than needed on a turn that this sees play would feel bad). Multiple copies likely increase your chances of getting to play one, but playing more than one relies on a Kingdom with healthy draw and some finesse when the deck gets low. Also, consistency of the card might benefit from the order of play and/or gaining of other Aquatic cards (especially + Card(s) like Undercity, Mermaid, and Kraken above).

I'm satisfied with the card from a flavor standpoint, but I'm unsure of how interesting/viable something like this would be in practice.

A strict reading of this card makes it nearly impossible to play.  Only if you can get it into your hand without drawing - such as with a card like Border Guard or Catacombs - can you play it.  And then there's the accountability issue with "when you draw this".  How can you prove whether or not your opponent actually followed the directions on the card?  I draw this with my initial 5-card hand, but  I decide not to discard it.  I play a Catacombs, look at the top 3 and put them in my hand.  None of those three cards is a Sunken Treasure.  In my buy phase I play this.  Now, how can you prove that it was not one of the cards I put in my hand with Catacombs?
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silverspawn

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest Week 8: Under the Seeeeea
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2021, 04:47:35 pm »
0

I think the Aquatic type is reasonable, but I don't get most of the cards proposed so far. Being Aquatic should generally be a downside (can be good if you have multiple cards of that type, but that's usually not the case), but most cards seem to treat it as if it were a bonus.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 05:55:42 pm by silverspawn »
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mxdata

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest Week 8: Under the Seeeeea
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2021, 04:52:50 pm »
0

I think the Aquatic type is reasonable, but I don't get most of the cards proposed so far. Being Aquatic should generally be a downside (can be good if you have multiple cards of that type, but that's usually not the case), but most cards seem to treat it as if it were a bonus.

I don't follow - why should it be a downside?
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silverspawn

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest Week 8: Under the Seeeeea
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2021, 05:55:49 pm »
0

I'm wrong nvm.

bootymancer

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest Week 8: Under the Seeeeea
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2021, 11:35:39 pm »
0

A strict reading of this card makes it nearly impossible to play.  Only if you can get it into your hand without drawing - such as with a card like Border Guard or Catacombs - can you play it.  And then there's the accountability issue with "when you draw this".  How can you prove whether or not your opponent actually followed the directions on the card?  I draw this with my initial 5-card hand, but  I decide not to discard it.  I play a Catacombs, look at the top 3 and put them in my hand.  None of those three cards is a Sunken Treasure.  In my buy phase I play this.  Now, how can you prove that it was not one of the cards I put in my hand with Catacombs?

You are absolutely right about the accountability issue. Thanks for the thorough example. Here's a revised wording more in-line with the original intent:
If this would be put into your hand without being revealed this turn, reveal it and discard it to the bottom of your deck. If you do, reveal the top card of your deck and put it into your hand.

A player could lie and keep it when they otherwise shouldn't. But unless it was revealed (both times) they couldn't play it without being called out by the other player(s). It may be a bit fiddly but this would be better on the accountability front, right? This revision should also deal with the strict reading point without explicitly invoking a difference between drawing vs. putting cards in hand.
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emtzalex

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest Week 8: Under the Seeeeea
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2021, 02:37:20 am »
+3

I am agnostic on whether to use the split colors or just the blue-grey for Action - Aquatic, so I made both versions. I do pretty strongly disagree with the rule that the cards get discarded if there is no deck. The main point of the Aquatic mechanic (IMO) is that you get the card before the general population in the discard pile, and I don't that having one card before you get them is meaningfully different than having zero cards. That being said, on to my card...


MY SUBMISSION:



Quote from: Poor Unfortunate Souls
POOR UNFORTUNATE SOULS   
ACTION - AQUATIC
+5 Cards
+1 Action

Discard 3 cards (revealed). If you did not discard an Action, Treasure, and Victory card, gain a Curse to the bottom of your deck.


At first blush, it seems to be an extremely powerful sifting Lab variant, enhanced further by the Aquatic mechanic. However, if you don't pay the price, you'll be raked across the coals, getting a Curse on top of the card that gave it to you. And the card itself makes the Curse's dead card effect more painful, as it generally can't be sifted by this card without getting another one (as you need to use the three discards for an Action, a Treasure, and a Victory card, unless you can discard a card with more than one of those types). Given the card's demand that you discard what it wants, the normal sifting ability to get you the "perfect" hand is also limited.

This pairs well with dual-type cards (Mill, Harem, Crown), or landscapes that give existing cards an additional type (Inheritance, Capitalism). If also works well with on-discard reactions (Tunnel, Faithful Hound, Village Green), as you can use it as one of your discarded cards, and either get a bonus (Tunnel--giving you Gold), play the card (Village Green), or put it back into your hand (Faithful Hound). The latter two are especially useful, as the Action card will tend to be the most painful discard. The interaction with strong trashing is interesting. On one hand, with really strong trashing you might be able to just discard what you want and eat all of the Curses, then trash them. But my inclination is that you often won't want to trash your Estates and Coppers, as those are being fed into the discard.

Properly deployed in a well-balanced deck, Poor Unfortunate Souls can still be a very powerful tool. But if you're not careful, you will be unable to play it correctly, getting little benefit and a huge disadvantage, and you'll end up worse off than you started. Pathetic...
« Last Edit: April 25, 2021, 02:39:20 am by emtzalex »
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Thanks to Shard of Honor for his Extended Version of the Dominion Card Image Generator, which I use to mock up my fan cards, and to Violet CLM, who made the original.

Aquila

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest Week 8: Under the Seeeeea
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2021, 07:50:47 am »
+3

I thought about how a card could refer to Aquatic cards so as to justify the type, liked what I was seeing, and came up with something that's rather similar to fika monster's entry. I put this together before I saw it:


Quote
Coral Reef - Action Aquatic, $4 cost.
+1 Card
+1 Action

You may play an Aquatic card from your hand.
-
When you gain this, you may move your Aquatic token onto an Action Supply pile. (During your turns, cards from that pile are Aquatic.)
Village that lets part of the engine line up together to be played easily, whilst letting some adaptability happen throughout the game with moving the token around.

I first tried an Aquatic Throne, but I felt it would make golden decks too easily.

With further hindsight it's rather similar to Mermaid and Undercity as well, a fusion of them and Poseidon's Gift! I guess they feel like natural areas to cover.
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spineflu

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest Week 8: Under the Seeeeea
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2021, 03:13:38 pm »
+3


Quote
Shell Merchant • $4 • Action - Aquatic
+1 Action
+$1
Put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile and put a card costing $5 or less onto your deck.
-
Gain and discard this from play to the bottom of your draw pile.

Sort of a peddler, except it needs an assist to draw the card - turns out sea shores are pretty bad places to sell sea shells. Having it on the deckbottom ensures you never run into the "freshly shuffle and hand full of harbingers" problem.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2021, 03:14:48 pm by spineflu »
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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest Week 8: Under the Seeeeea
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2021, 09:19:28 pm »
+5


edit: added a weak +buy option
« Last Edit: April 26, 2021, 01:02:38 am by pubby »
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silverspawn

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest Week 8: Under the Seeeeea
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2021, 04:37:07 pm »
+4

(Submission Withdrawn, I think this makes golden decks too easy.)



New submission:

« Last Edit: April 29, 2021, 04:24:19 pm by silverspawn »
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Xen3k

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Contest Week 8: Under the Seeeeea
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2021, 07:47:37 pm »
+2



Quote
Way of the Dolphin
Way
+1 Action
This, the next card you play, and all cards in the supply are Aquatic until end of turn.

Not sure if the "cards in the supply" part is going to have weird interactions, but I did not want tracking issues if I had "cards you gain" be Aquatic.
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