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Author Topic: Taking Artifacts from Border Guard  (Read 1582 times)

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crj

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Taking Artifacts from Border Guard
« on: April 23, 2021, 01:08:39 pm »
+1

You have played Border Guard. All the cards you revealed were Actions.

It's clear that if you have neither Lantern nor Horn, you must take one of them (your choice).
If you have both, nothing happens.

But what if you have only one of those two Artifacts? Are you required to take the other, or are you permitted to choose to "take" the one you already have?

My guess, on general principles, is that you can choose e.g. to take the Horn when you already have the Horn but not the Lantern. It would be good to get confirmation, though.
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mxdata

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Re: Taking Artifacts from Border Guard
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2021, 01:18:51 pm »
+2

Yes, just as you can, for example, choose to "take" the Key when you play Treasurer even if you already have the Key
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crj

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Re: Taking Artifacts from Border Guard
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2021, 10:01:42 am »
0

Good find; nice analogy. I'm convinced, thanks.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Taking Artifacts from Border Guard
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2021, 11:38:16 am »
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Well Treasurer is worded more like Torturer; and we know that you can choose to gain a Curse even if they are gone, or choose to discard 2 cards even if your hand is empty. Any time Dominion says “choose one”, you always can make any choice without regard to if that choice is possible.

While I’m pretty sure Border Guard would follow the same rule, I’m not convinced by Treasurer because it uses the “choose one” wording but Border Guard does not.

Is there any other card in Dominion that uses “or” without “choose”?

Hmm, Noble Brigand does. If someone reveals just a Silver, I’m pretty sure that you can’t choose the “trash a Gold” option if you don’t want your opponent to trash a Silver; you have to make them trash the Silver... isn’t that more similar to Border Guard?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 11:41:35 am by GendoIkari »
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mxdata

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Re: Taking Artifacts from Border Guard
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2021, 03:05:56 pm »
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Well Treasurer is worded more like Torturer; and we know that you can choose to gain a Curse even if they are gone, or choose to discard 2 cards even if your hand is empty. Any time Dominion says “choose one”, you always can make any choice without regard to if that choice is possible.

While I’m pretty sure Border Guard would follow the same rule, I’m not convinced by Treasurer because it uses the “choose one” wording but Border Guard does not.

Is there any other card in Dominion that uses “or” without “choose”?

Hmm, Noble Brigand does. If someone reveals just a Silver, I’m pretty sure that you can’t choose the “trash a Gold” option if you don’t want your opponent to trash a Silver; you have to make them trash the Silver... isn’t that more similar to Border Guard?

Hmm .... that's a good point, but I think you should still have that option. That's certainly the interpretation taken in the online implementation at least

Maybe the key difference is that with BG, the two Artifacts are always present.  So, the options you have are always the same - Horn or Lantern, and you can choose the one you already have.  With Noble Brigand, on the other hand, the options you have for trashing (if any) only exist once you reveal the top two cards of your deck.  The "revealed Silver or Gold" simply defines what is trashable
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chipperMDW

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Re: Taking Artifacts from Border Guard
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2021, 04:36:34 pm »
+1

Is there any other card in Dominion that uses “or” without “choose”?

Hunting Grounds.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Taking Artifacts from Border Guard
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2021, 07:36:43 pm »
+1

Is there any other card in Dominion that uses “or” without “choose”?

Hunting Grounds.

Perfect! It’s been ruled that you can choose to gain a Duchy if the pile is empty, and Border Guard is definitely the same wording.

It’s still not completely clear to me why Noble Brigand is different; but it’s also not like it’s a completely identical wording, either.
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Ingix

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Re: Taking Artifacts from Border Guard
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2021, 04:38:49 am »
+1

The way I see it is that Noble Brigand doesn't make you choose a card name, like Rebuild, but a concrete card, similar to Lookout. For Lookout you have to choose one the revealed cards to trash, even if you don't want to. For Noble Brigand, you have to choose one of the revealed cards, even if you don't want to. The only difference is that there is a further restriction on the revealed card you have to choose, which is that it must be Silver or Gold. If no Silver or Golds are reveled that is of course impossible. But if there is, then one of them has to be chosen.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Taking Artifacts from Border Guard
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2021, 12:27:57 pm »
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The way I see it is that Noble Brigand doesn't make you choose a card name, like Rebuild, but a concrete card, similar to Lookout. For Lookout you have to choose one the revealed cards to trash, even if you don't want to. For Noble Brigand, you have to choose one of the revealed cards, even if you don't want to. The only difference is that there is a further restriction on the revealed card you have to choose, which is that it must be Silver or Gold. If no Silver or Golds are reveled that is of course impossible. But if there is, then one of them has to be chosen.

I think this seems right. It’s possibly interesting that it would be different if Noble Brigand said “trashes a revealed Gold or trashes a revealed Silver (you choose)”.
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Jeebus

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Re: Taking Artifacts from Border Guard
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2021, 08:03:59 am »
+1

I think this seems right. It’s possibly interesting that it would be different if Noble Brigand said “trashes a revealed Gold or trashes a revealed Silver (you choose)”.

Yes, that's exactly right. Noble Brigand doesn't mean that. It means, trash an optional card out of the ones that were revealed and are named Silver or Gold.
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