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emtzalex

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Janus cards: a new fan mechanic
« on: April 12, 2021, 02:02:33 am »
+6

A while back I was looking through the Dominion Card Image Generator discussion and came across this post responding to some asking when to use Violet CLM's double-sided template.

Basically that template is a solution in search of a problem. It's an expression of confidence that someday someone will have the perfect idea that can best (or only) be expressed by a double-sided card.

That sounds like as good a challenge as any, but I couldn't think of anything when I first saw it. I thought about it for a while, and what I ultimately came up with is a new card type called Janus cards.

Janus cards are divided in half, with an image in the middle and two titles, text boxes, costs and types, each on one side of the image. This is hard to describe in words, so I'll show an example:


Quote
Fame | Fortune -- $4

Fame
Treasure - Janus
+1 Coffers

Fortune
Treasure - Janus
$3

Fame|Fortune is a Treasure-Janus card. All Janus cards have at least one other type. As they are currently designed, the other type (or at least one of the other types) must be a playable card type (e.g. Action, Treasure, Night, etc.). Both sides do not necessarily need to have the same type. So far all Janus cards are Kingdom cards, although there's no reason they couldn't be non-Supply cards as well. They are gained like any other card, and their cost is listed on both sides (it is always the same).

By now you are asking, okay, but how do these work? I'm glad you asked. When a player plays a Janus card, they choose which way they want to play it. The side facing that player (i.e. appearing face up from that player's perspective) is the side that that player has played, and the effect is resolved normally by that player as if they had just played that card. However, the other side is resolved as if it had been played by each other player.

An example, Fame|Fortune is a Treasure card, so it would (normally) be played during a player's Buy phase. If Fortune is played, it is worth $3 for the player playing it, while each other player gets +1 Coffers. On the other hand, if Fame is played, the player playing it gets +1 Coffers, and the other players get $3, but cannot use it (with the caveat below). Thus, the strategic choice is whether to get the better effect ($3) but give something to your opponent, or take the weaker effect and give nothing to your opponents.

Just as they are at the end of any players turn, any Actions, Buys, or $ gained on another players turn are lost to a player when that turn ends. That means to the extent the opposite side of the card gives these to a player whose turn it is not, they will almost never have any effect. An official example of this is Caravan Guard, which gives +1 Action and can sometimes be played on other player's turns using its Reaction. That card contains a parenthetical stating that the +1 Action has no effect if its not your turn. Because of the tightness of the text boxes for these cards, they do not reminder players of this like Caravan Guard does.

(Also, it might, in theory, not be the case that getting these things has no effect. If at some point there is a Janus card that has a variant of Throne Room or Imp/Conclave and another player used that to play a Storyteller not on their turn, the $ they had previously received from other Janus cards might matter; that being said, I have not thought through the other implications of such a card [including stacking Janus cards], so those may not be able to reasonably exist).

On the other hand, +Cards while always be useful, as will getting tokens (Coffers, Villagers, VP tokens) or gaining/trashing cards. With that background, here are the first few cards I have come up with.

Some Action cards:

Quote
Fire | Water -- $4

Fire -- Action - Janus
+1 Action
You may trash a card from your hand for +1 Card per $1 it costs.

Water -- Action - Janus
+1 Action
You may trash any number of Curses from your hand.
Quote
Supplier | Distributor -- $5

Supplier -- Action - Janus
+1 Action
You may gain a card from the Supply pile with the Distribution token on it to your hand.

Distributor -- Action - Janus
If you have more cards in your hand than any other player, you may move the Distribution token to any non-Victory Supply pile.
Quote
Spring Village | Cherry Blossom -- $4

Spring Village -- Action - Janus
+1 Card
+2 Actions

Cherry Blossom -- Action - Janus
+1 Action
+$3

Quote
Dark Bargain | Dark Trade -- $4

Dark Bargain -- Action - Janus
You may gain a Curse for +2VP; if there are no Curses in the Supply, you may trash an Action card from the Supply for +1VP.

Dark Trade -- Action - Janus
You may trash a card from your hand to gain a card costing up to $2 more to your hand.
Quote
Hearth | Home -- $4

Hearth -- Action - Janus
+1 Card
+2 Actions

Home -- Action - Janus
+4 Actions

I also designed a Night Janus card, as well as one that is half-Night, half-Action:

Quote
Dark | Stormy -- $2

Dark -- Night - Janus
You may trash any number of cards from your hand.

Stormy -- Night - Janus
You may trash up to three non-Duration cards you have in play.
Quote
Daydream | Nightmare -- $5

Daydream -- Action - Janus
+1 Action
For each card you have in play, you may discard a card from your hand. Then, draw until you have 6 cards in hand.

Nightmare -- Night - Janus
Trash a card from your hand or up to two you have in play.

One area that I think has a lot of really interesting potential is with Duration cards. I haven't been able to actual come up with that much yet, though. Here is what I have thought of.


Quote
Sloop | Junk -- $4

Sloop -- Action - Duration - Janus
At the start of your next turn: +2 Card, +1 Buy

Junk -- Action - Duration - Janus
+1 Action
+$2
At the start of your next turn: +$1.

These are just my initial ideas, I have not spent a lot of time thinking about stuff like balance, design, or flavor.

I do think the Janus mechanic is only interesting (and using it and the unusual card design is only justified) for cards where players are reasonably likely to play either side of the card. It is not interesting to have one side be negative, making the card into an attack:



or even when one effect is clearly better, and would always be the player using the card's choice:



As the above cards (hopefully) illustrate, either of those things can be easily done with existing cards/mechanics, and are not worth using the Janus format.

As for the name, Janus was the ancient Roman god of (among other things) transitions, duality, beginnings and endings, etc. He was often portrayed as having two faces (facing out in opposite directions from a single head), and my awareness of him definitely does not just come from that one episode of Buffy. I actually don't love this as the name for these cards, but I really don't like "Dual" or "Double" cards, and haven't come up with anything else.

What do you think? Do you like these? Hate them? Does this make sense? What questions do you have? What do I need to explain, decide, or clarify? Do you like the name Janus? Do you have other suggestions?
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faust

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Re: Janus cards: a new fan mechanic
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2021, 05:49:00 am »
+1

The concept is fine, but I'm not sure that there is enough of interest to do with it that couldn't be done equally well with existing mechanics. Also I am not 100% sure what the order of execution would be, but I'm going to assume you do your part first and then the other players do theirs. Fame/Fortune seems decent (apart from the fact that there is already a card called Fortune) and it would be much wordier with a "Choose one: ..." But I'm not sold on the others (see below). In general balancing these is so much harder than balancing other fan cards because there is just so much to consider.

Fire/Water -  this is just an Apprentice for $4. The Curse thing will matter only in a fraction of games.
Supplier/Distributor - this one seems like it has potential, I'm not sure the balancing is good as it's hard to evaluate, but it seems interesting.
Spring Village/Cherry Blossom - this could just be "+1 Action. Choose one: +1 Card, +1 Action, or +$3 and each other player draws a card." Not much thext and avoids needing a new mechanic.
Dark Bargain/Dark Trade - Remodel to hand is way too good, and Dark Bargain is basically never worth it even if you're offered it for free (unless you have a Watchtower in hand), so it's not a real downside.
Hearth/Home - okay, but also could easily avoid the new mechanic.
Dark/Stormy - I don't see how using Stormy for yourself would ever be worth it considering the massive boost you're giving your opponents. Also it's better than Chapel (!).
Daydream/Nightmare - this has potential, but Nightmare is a strong effect to give to an opponent, I'm not sure it would be worth doing.
Sloop/Junk - I would never consider giving my opponent a Wharf effect just for some measly coins. This is just a super weak card.
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emtzalex

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Re: Janus cards: a new fan mechanic
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2021, 01:34:28 pm »
0

Also I am not 100% sure what the order of execution would be, but I'm going to assume you do your part first and then the other players do theirs.

Sorry, I should have specified this. Yes, you are correct. The player whose turn it is resolves their side of the card first, then the other players resolve the opposite side in turn order. (I think this is consistent with the official rules for cards like Scrying Pool and Governor.)

The concept is fine, but I'm not sure that there is enough of interest to do with it that couldn't be done equally well with existing mechanics . . . But I'm not sold on the others (see below). In general balancing these is so much harder than balancing other fan cards because there is just so much to consider.

This is my biggest concern. I do think they have some potential in theory, but balancing might just be too hard to pull off. Thanks for the feedback.
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mathdude

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Re: Janus cards: a new fan mechanic
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2021, 01:54:10 pm »
+1

This does seem like the balance of cards will be very difficult to achieve (as seen by many of the examples), and to also be distinctly different than could be easily accomplished using existing mechanics on a regular card.  It would be a fun challenge for sure though.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2021, 01:55:19 pm by mathdude »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Janus cards: a new fan mechanic
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2021, 05:05:42 pm »
+2

How do these work with Wishing Well type effects? What is the card's name while it is not in play?
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emtzalex

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Re: Janus cards: a new fan mechanic
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2021, 10:06:15 pm »
0

How do these work with Wishing Well type effects? What is the card's name while it is not in play?

While I'm sure I need to nail down some of the syntax around these, the term of art "card" as it is used in the game should definitely apply to the entire, two-option object. So with Wishing Well, you would guess "Fire | Water" to try to get that card. I would take it further and say that if you played that card as Fire then played an Imp or Conclave, you could not play it again as Water, because you do have a copy of that card (Fire | Water) in play. (I would equate this to having played an Action card using a Way; even though you have never played it for its own ability, there is still a copy of it in play, so Imp/Conclave won't work).

As to how you would read it aloud or write it out, I think "Fire/Water" (pronounced Fire slash Water) or "Fire | Water" (pronounced Fire Water) are both options. With some of the pairs, I definitely conceived of them as "A and B" (Fire and Water, Fame and Fortune, Dark and Stormy {Night}, Hearth and Home). I'm not sure there has to be an official way to say the
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Timinou

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Re: Janus cards: a new fan mechanic
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2021, 10:40:18 pm »
+1

What about cards that care about card types (e.g. Ironmonger, Courtier, etc)?  If I reveal Nightmare/Daydream with Courtier, would I get 2 or 3 options to choose from?
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emtzalex

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Re: Janus cards: a new fan mechanic
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2021, 11:12:12 pm »
0

What about cards that care about card types (e.g. Ironmonger, Courtier, etc)?  If I reveal Nightmare/Daydream with Courtier, would I get 2 or 3 options to choose from?

Definitely 3. Nightmare/Daydream has 3 types: Action, Night, and Janus. The fact that two of those types only apply to part of the card doesn't change the fact that the card "has" them. Moreover, if it was somehow possible to go from the Night phase back to the Buy phase, and you had played Nightmare as a Night, it would still reduce the cost of Peddler by $2, since it is an Action card you have in play.
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mathdude

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Re: Janus cards: a new fan mechanic
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2021, 11:29:33 pm »
0

What about cards that care about card types (e.g. Ironmonger, Courtier, etc)?  If I reveal Nightmare/Daydream with Courtier, would I get 2 or 3 options to choose from?

Definitely 3. Nightmare/Daydream has 3 types: Action, Night, and Janus. The fact that two of those types only apply to part of the card doesn't change the fact that the card "has" them. Moreover, if it was somehow possible to go from the Night phase back to the Buy phase, and you had played Nightmare as a Night, it would still reduce the cost of Peddler by $2, since it is an Action card you have in play.

So then you could also play Imp or Conclave, then play Nightmare in your Action phase, since it is on an Action-Night-Janus card.
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emtzalex

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Re: Janus cards: a new fan mechanic
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2021, 12:25:21 am »
0

What about cards that care about card types (e.g. Ironmonger, Courtier, etc)?  If I reveal Nightmare/Daydream with Courtier, would I get 2 or 3 options to choose from?

Definitely 3. Nightmare/Daydream has 3 types: Action, Night, and Janus. The fact that two of those types only apply to part of the card doesn't change the fact that the card "has" them. Moreover, if it was somehow possible to go from the Night phase back to the Buy phase, and you had played Nightmare as a Night, it would still reduce the cost of Peddler by $2, since it is an Action card you have in play.

So then you could also play Imp or Conclave, then play Nightmare in your Action phase, since it is on an Action-Night-Janus card.

That seems to be correct. You could use Conclave or Imp to play Nightmare during your Action phase, but I'm not sure why you would the vast majority of the time. Doing so has multiple disadvantages: you would have fewer cards in play for the superior 2-in-play trashing (and no Coppers); if you want to trash a card in your hand, any card you would trash during your Action phase can still be there at Night (with one exception, mentioned below); after Conclave in particular, Daydream is especially strong because you have at least two optional discards before drawing up to 6, and will have 2 Actions afterward; (Imp playing Daydream is also pretty good, as Daydream makes it non-terminal, and you still get at least two sifting discards).

The only situation I can think of where it would be to one's advantage to do this is if you were under the effect of an opponent's Haunted Woods, which would prevent you from playing a Night after you bought a card during your Buy phase. In that case, if you wanted the trashing, you would need to use it during your Action phase. Of course, if you did that, the Daydream would combine with the Haunted Woods to give that opponent a 9 card hand, so I don't think there should be too much concern with this card disabling or significantly weakening Haunted Woods.

I think this will be true of other Action - Janus | Night - Janus cards, if they come along. I (generally) try to design Night cards to work at Night, which means they tend to trash, count, or otherwise care about cards in play, or look at what you've done this turn, so playing them during your Action phase is generally going to be worse than playing them at Night (Haunted Woods excluded).

This trick might be of slightly more significance when I inevitably design Action - Janus | Treasure - Janus cards. Those would offer the possibility of playing Treasures during your Action phase, which is something that can already happen (see Black Market) and which already has some strongly advantageous combos (most notably, with Tactician). Of course, the fact that this tricks can already be done using official cards I don't think they'll break the game.

Thank you mathdude for pointing this out. I will definitely keep this in mind when I am designing Janus cards with different types, and be careful to make sure that they aren't dangerously overpowered if they get played in the wrong phase. Thanks also to Timinou and GendoIkari for your questions as well.
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Re: Janus cards: a new fan mechanic
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2021, 01:20:10 am »
0

Conclave, specifically, could be advantageous to play an Action-Night-Janus card, sometimes as a Night instead of Action (depending on the balance between the 2 halves, and their interactions)... if you have already played a Village and Smithy, and you have another Smithy in hand with Conclave and Nightmare/Daydream.  Playing the 2nd Smithy is dead, but you also can't play Conclave>Smithy because you have one in play already.  Doing Conclave>Nightmare/Daydream gives you an extra +1 Action and can still play your 2nd Smithy (but now you have +$2 from Conclave).  Granted, in this case Daydream is likely better, but it's something you have to consider as you potentially design more like it.
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Re: Janus cards: a new fan mechanic
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2021, 01:22:36 pm »
+1

What about cards that care about card types (e.g. Ironmonger, Courtier, etc)?  If I reveal Nightmare/Daydream with Courtier, would I get 2 or 3 options to choose from?

Definitely 3. Nightmare/Daydream has 3 types: Action, Night, and Janus. The fact that two of those types only apply to part of the card doesn't change the fact that the card "has" them. Moreover, if it was somehow possible to go from the Night phase back to the Buy phase, and you had played Nightmare as a Night, it would still reduce the cost of Peddler by $2, since it is an Action card you have in play.

So then you could also play Imp or Conclave, then play Nightmare in your Action phase, since it is on an Action-Night-Janus card.

This also shouldn't be specific tied to Imp or Conclave, though, right? i.e. If the type is "Action-Night-Janus" you would be able to play it during your Action phase anytime, but choose the Night option. Which feels weird.
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Re: Janus cards: a new fan mechanic
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2021, 02:11:21 pm »
0

What about cards that care about card types (e.g. Ironmonger, Courtier, etc)?  If I reveal Nightmare/Daydream with Courtier, would I get 2 or 3 options to choose from?

Definitely 3. Nightmare/Daydream has 3 types: Action, Night, and Janus. The fact that two of those types only apply to part of the card doesn't change the fact that the card "has" them. Moreover, if it was somehow possible to go from the Night phase back to the Buy phase, and you had played Nightmare as a Night, it would still reduce the cost of Peddler by $2, since it is an Action card you have in play.

So then you could also play Imp or Conclave, then play Nightmare in your Action phase, since it is on an Action-Night-Janus card.

This also shouldn't be specific tied to Imp or Conclave, though, right? i.e. If the type is "Action-Night-Janus" you would be able to play it during your Action phase anytime, but choose the Night option. Which feels weird.

An official card with Action-Night (Werewolf) specifies how you play it, depending on which phase it's in.  Maybe the Action-Night-Janus (and any similar) would have to specify the same thing?  It would get quite awkward though, because then Nightmare would say "if it's your Night phase, ..." and if you play Daydream then other players get the Nightmare benefit (except they would get nothing, since it's not your or their Night phase).  So then it's broken?  Is there a way to fix it without adding a ton of text?
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Re: Janus cards: a new fan mechanic
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2021, 07:36:56 pm »
0

What about cards that care about card types (e.g. Ironmonger, Courtier, etc)?  If I reveal Nightmare/Daydream with Courtier, would I get 2 or 3 options to choose from?

Definitely 3. Nightmare/Daydream has 3 types: Action, Night, and Janus. The fact that two of those types only apply to part of the card doesn't change the fact that the card "has" them. Moreover, if it was somehow possible to go from the Night phase back to the Buy phase, and you had played Nightmare as a Night, it would still reduce the cost of Peddler by $2, since it is an Action card you have in play.

So then you could also play Imp or Conclave, then play Nightmare in your Action phase, since it is on an Action-Night-Janus card.

This also shouldn't be specific tied to Imp or Conclave, though, right? i.e. If the type is "Action-Night-Janus" you would be able to play it during your Action phase anytime, but choose the Night option. Which feels weird.

An official card with Action-Night (Werewolf) specifies how you play it, depending on which phase it's in.  Maybe the Action-Night-Janus (and any similar) would have to specify the same thing?  It would get quite awkward though, because then Nightmare would say "if it's your Night phase, ..." and if you play Daydream then other players get the Nightmare benefit (except they would get nothing, since it's not your or their Night phase).  So then it's broken?  Is there a way to fix it without adding a ton of text?

Maybe just specify in the rules for the Janus type that if the two sides have different basic types, you can only play the side that matches the current phase.  E.g., if one side is Action - Janus and the other side is Night - Janus, you can only play the Action side during your Action phase and the Night side during your Night phase
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Re: Janus cards: a new fan mechanic
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2021, 09:43:11 pm »
0

Sorry just wanted to say I opened your post just to absentmindedly skim it without reading the explanation and I legitimately thought I was having a stroke when looking at the cards. I still have whiplash from my brain trying to comprehend what I was looking at before realizing they are double sided cards.
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Re: Janus cards: a new fan mechanic
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2021, 03:18:53 am »
0

I appreciate the feedback and am sorry it has taken me a minute to post. I got my second dose of the vaccine and it had me dragging for a couple of days (I'm still extremely glad I was able to get it).

I have continued tinkering with these, but I'm not sure any more are ready to be released. However, for the purpose of making some of my points on the topic I want to discuss (Janus cards with different types on each side), it helps to have a card that is Acton-Janus on one side and Treasure-Janus on the other. So, I give you Two Birds | One Stone (a/k/a "TBOS"):

Quote from: TwoBirdsOneStone
Two Birds | One Stone -- $4

Two Birds -- Action - Janus
 +2 Cards

One Stone -- Treasure - Janus
 +$3

         

The idea is a little goofy, and I definitely don't want these all to be cheap-gold-that-helps-your-opponent, but this illustrates some of my thoughts on the question more clearly than with a half-Night card.

This also shouldn't be specific tied to Imp or Conclave, though, right? i.e. If the type is "Action-Night-Janus" you would be able to play it during your Action phase anytime, but choose the Night option. Which feels weird.

It was definitely not my intention for this to be possible, and I need to modify/clarify the rules around Janus cards (and how the cards are talked about) so that it's clear this cannot happen. My main point regarding in my previous Imp/Conclave was that in the context of the particular card I have currently designed, it would not make that much of a difference if you could use one of those cards to play it as Nightmare. To get to that point I conceded that it was probably true that you could. But thinking about it more, I have decided that it either isn't, or shouldn't be.

For starters, I would say that Daydream/Nightmare is not an Action-Night-Janus card, or a card with the type Action-Night-Janus. It is a card that is half Action-Janus and half Night-Janus. No part of the card is both Action and Night. This is weird, because on every official card, the card is a single unit and every type covers every part of the card. But that's clearly not true of Janus cards, so that means they will work differently than any of the official cards, at least in some circumstances (or sets of circumstances).

I have an idea for how this should work, but I'm not sure if it is elegant and direct or completely convoluted and incompressible. Here it is:

When a Janus card is out of play (in your hand, deck, or discard pile, set aside, in the trash, in Exile, etc.), it has and is of all it's types. So Courtier, Ironmonger, etc. recognize each of its types. As previously mentioned (and not changing with this change of the rules), Courtier would count all of the types on the card, find 3, and then behave accordingly. If Ironmonger revealed TBOS, it would produce both +1 Action and +$1. Similarly, once a Janus card is in play, the same is true. Peddler would count TBOS as an Action, even if it had been played for $3 during the Buy phase.

However, at the moment a Janus card is being played, it only has the types of the side that is being played right-side-up, and a player is only playing those types of cards. This means playing D/N with Nightmare facing you is not playing an Action card, so you could not use Imp or Conclave to do it, and you could not just do it during your Action phase. This also means that if you played Storyteller and used it to play TBOS as Treasure, then played Conspirator, it would not give the cantrip, because you have not played two Actions (although you have two Action cards in play).

The closest official equivalent I can think of would be if you played a Fortress, an Animal Fair, and an Herbalist, then bought Capitalism. When you played those three cards, they were not Treasure cards, but by the time it's your cleanup and Herbalist is ready to topdeck one of them, two of them are Treasure cards, Herbalist you can put Animal Fair back onto your deck.


An official card with Action-Night (Werewolf) specifies how you play it, depending on which phase it's in.  Maybe the Action-Night-Janus (and any similar) would have to specify the same thing?  It would get quite awkward though, because then Nightmare would say "if it's your Night phase, ..." and if you play Daydream then other players get the Nightmare benefit (except they would get nothing, since it's not your or their Night phase).  So then it's broken?  Is there a way to fix it without adding a ton of text?

As you point out, the solution that is used on Werewolf clearly does not work with Janus cards. The main point of these cards is to give your opponent(s) one of the benefits, and adding that language renders that effect useless.

Maybe just specify in the rules for the Janus type that if the two sides have different basic types, you can only play the side that matches the current phase.  E.g., if one side is Action - Janus and the other side is Night - Janus, you can only play the Action side during your Action phase and the Night side during your Night phase

I hope I am doing a version of that. Right now the official rules say that during your Action phase you can play Action cards, during your Buy phase you can play Treasure cards, and during your Night phase you can play Night cards. (Like all rules, they are subject to exceptions when specifically set forth in card text, e.g. Black Market, Storyteller, Scepter, Toil). By saying that when you play the Night - Janus side you are not playing an Action card, by implication that means you cannot (normally) do so during your Action phase. However, it wouldn't prevent you from playing the Treasure side of TBOS using Storyteller, as you would with any other Treasure.


I hope this makes sense. I think it better represents what I'm trying to do with these, and is more in line with the rules as they exist. Thanks to mathdude, scolapasta, and mxdata for your feedback on these. They are different enough that they are definitely going to require some tweaking rules-wise. I appreciate all of the input I have gotten.

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Thanks to Shard of Honor for his Extended Version of the Dominion Card Image Generator, which I use to mock up my fan cards, and to Violet CLM, who made the original.

emtzalex

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Re: Janus cards: a new fan mechanic
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2021, 03:19:11 am »
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Sorry just wanted to say I opened your post just to absentmindedly skim it without reading the explanation and I legitimately thought I was having a stroke when looking at the cards. I still have whiplash from my brain trying to comprehend what I was looking at before realizing they are double sided cards.

Sorry about that! As previously mentioned, I didn't design these layouts, I am just trying to adapt them into something that might be interesting and worth trying out.
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Thanks to Shard of Honor for his Extended Version of the Dominion Card Image Generator, which I use to mock up my fan cards, and to Violet CLM, who made the original.
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