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Author Topic: Weekly Design Contest #110: This stays in play  (Read 18714 times)

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anordinaryman

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #110: This stays in play
« Reply #125 on: April 11, 2021, 10:51:49 pm »
+3


I know that the winner is already decided and I don't want to constest the ranking but I just whant to point that...
Orrery is too strong where tax collector is ok ?
I mean, Orrery have default, obviously, but this one...

It's just one person's opinion. My card also got ranked 3/10 but my submission is currently the most up-voted post in the forum this week. Clearly mathdude didn't see what those other people did, and I'm perfectly fine with that. There's many Donald X designed cards that is a hit or a miss depending on each individual. It just happens. I'm just happy to come up with an idea that appeals to me.

I don't think Orrery is crazy strong. My biggest criticism is it slows the game down so much. Every turn I look through all the cards I have? Then I have to shuffle every turn before I even start my turn?
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Shael

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #110: This stays in play
« Reply #126 on: April 12, 2021, 05:09:31 am »
+1

Yes, I believe Orrery is way too strong at $4, as it gives you huge control over your hand and deck... and does it every turn.

Tax Collector triggers only when you shuffle, which typically happens less and less frequently as the game goes on and even so only gives you +1 Coffers. Sure, you could get 2 (or even 3 or 5) in play... but at the cost of not buying other stuff, to get a couple extra Coffers every few turns.
In a good engine, you usualy shufle each turn. If you play with sifter, discard for benefit or gainer it goes to multiple coffers per turn. You don't have to buy multiple tax collector and wast too much buy on it; only one is enougth to be a great source of money. And it's way stronger than Orrery.
This was the general discord though about these two cards and I agree with them.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2021, 05:23:23 am by Shael »
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silverspawn

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #110: This stays in play
« Reply #127 on: April 12, 2021, 05:28:39 am »
0

Wouldn't Orrery decrease your handsize if your discard pile is empty at the start of your turn?

Shael

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #110: This stays in play
« Reply #128 on: April 14, 2021, 05:25:56 am »
0

Wouldn't Orrery decrease your handsize if your discard pile is empty at the start of your turn?
Yes, it decrase it.
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silverspawn

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #110: This stays in play
« Reply #129 on: April 14, 2021, 05:34:33 am »
0

In that case, I also doubt that it's too strong. But I don't get the connection to Tax Collector. The cards don't seem to me to be similar. One does deck improvement, the other does payoff.

Shael

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #110: This stays in play
« Reply #130 on: April 14, 2021, 03:04:39 pm »
0

In that case, I also doubt that it's too strong. But I don't get the connection to Tax Collector. The cards don't seem to me to be similar. One does deck improvement, the other does payoff.
The remark wasn't on their similarities; it's just than tax collector, presented as a model of balance, is way stronger than Orrery, consider as too strong.
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pubby

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #110: This stays in play
« Reply #131 on: April 14, 2021, 08:53:10 pm »
+2

Tax Collector is a better Baker on most boards, but becomes crazy degenerate with certain enablers like Oasis or Mill. I love the card - it sounds fun - but it's not balanced.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #110: This stays in play
« Reply #132 on: April 15, 2021, 02:38:51 am »
+2

Re: Tax Collector... several years ago, there was a big debate over whether or not it counted as shuffling if you had only zero or one card that was being shuffled. There is no official card that ever cares about this distinction. Donald did eventually rule that you can shuffle one card; but he didn't rule on the question of shuffling zero cards.

Here is the thread: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=15358.msg601263#msg601263

For what it's worth, MTG does state in the rules that things that trigger when you shuffle still trigger if you only have zero or one card.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2021, 12:49:07 pm by GendoIkari »
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silverspawn

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #110: This stays in play
« Reply #133 on: April 15, 2021, 01:42:12 pm »
0

I assumed without questioning it that you shuffle with one card but not with zero

GendoIkari

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #110: This stays in play
« Reply #134 on: April 15, 2021, 02:50:12 pm »
+1

I assumed without questioning it that you shuffle with one card but not with zero

That's certainly one of the 3 possible interpretations; though according to this poll the least-common one. Granted, the poll is not unbiased and happened after much discussion around this had already taken place.

Of course, the power level of Tax Collector varies greatly depending on which interpretation you use. If 0 cards counts as shuffling, then man is it insanely overpowered. Every single card-drawing card gets a +1 Coffer tacked on if you've drawn your deck.

Also a weird thing... if 0 cards counts as shuffling, then Smithy works very differently under first edition rules compared to second edition rules. In second edition rules, when you play Smithy with an empty deck, you would first shuffle your discard pile, and then draw 3 cards (failing to draw any), for 1 shuffle. In original rules, you would "shuffle" each time you go to draw 1 of the cards for Smithy, getting 3 shuffles in total.

Now I'm conflicted... although I think lots of people may assume that "when you shuffle" triggers when you shuffle an empty pile, I don't feel like anyone would have ever assumed that playing a Smithy while your deck is empty would count as shuffling 3 times.

*Edit* And I think I know why. In MTG, you only ever shuffle your library when an effect specifically instructs you to "shuffle your library". Because an effect tells you to do that, people don't think it's all that weird when the rules clarify that even if you have 0 cards in your library, it still counts as having shuffled your library when you're instructed to do so. But in Dominion, shuffling happens automatically whenever your draw pile is empty and you need cards. If your discard pile is also empty, people don't think in terms of "now my draw pile is empty, so I will attempt to shuffle my discard pile". Rather they simply think "oh, because my discard pile is empty, the normal rule that says to make a new draw pile doesn't apply in this situation". So it's not so much a question of "does it count as shuffling if it is only 0 cards" as much as it is "do you still even bother making a new draw pile if your discard pile is also empty".

*Edit again* I think the simple fix is to say that yes, it still counts as shuffling if you only have 0 cards to shuffle, BUT the rule about what to do when your draw pile is empty / doesn't have enough cards to do what you need is modified to say "if your discard pile has any cards in it, shuffle your discard pile and put it on the bottom of your draw pile".
« Last Edit: April 15, 2021, 03:19:50 pm by GendoIkari »
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silverspawn

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #110: This stays in play
« Reply #135 on: April 15, 2021, 03:36:36 pm »
+1



Now it doesn't matter if you shuffle a deck of 0 cards or not.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2021, 05:05:21 pm by silverspawn »
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silverspawn

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #110: This stays in play
« Reply #136 on: April 15, 2021, 03:39:50 pm »
+1

I assumed without questioning it that you shuffle with one card but not with zero

That's certainly one of the 3 possible interpretations; though according to this poll the least-common one. Granted, the poll is not unbiased and happened after much discussion around this had already taken place.

I'm usually in the 'things also happen at 0' camp; for example, I expected you to be able to overpay for 0$ before learning that you can't. I think the reason why this is different is that I view shuffling as 'the process by which the cards from your discard pile go back to your draw pile' and if you have no cards, then this process doesn't take place, whereas if you have one card, it does take place. But I readily concede that this is entirely arbitrary.

scolapasta

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #110: This stays in play
« Reply #137 on: April 15, 2021, 03:52:22 pm »
0



Now it doesn't matter if you shuffle a deck of 0 cards or not.

Technically, per the rulebook, you shuffle your discard pile and then place it under your deck (except for a case like Inn).
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silverspawn

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #110: This stays in play
« Reply #138 on: April 15, 2021, 05:05:08 pm »
0

Technically, per the rulebook, you shuffle your discard pile and then place it under your deck (except for a case like Inn).

Thanks. I keep forgetting that your deck is not your deck but just your draw pile. What do you think of the updated version?

mxdata

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #110: This stays in play
« Reply #139 on: April 16, 2021, 12:43:41 am »
0

Technically, per the rulebook, you shuffle your discard pile and then place it under your deck (except for a case like Inn).

Thanks. I keep forgetting that your deck is not your deck but just your draw pile. What do you think of the updated version?

Maybe for maximum clarity "When you shuffle one or more cards ..." to make it clear that 0 cards do not trigger the ability, but 1 card does.  It's probably important to state that, since, as shown in that linked thread, different people have different intuitions about it.  Me, I would interpret shuffle to require two or more cards (indeed, before this, I would never have even thought that there *could* be another interpretation, so it would never be something I would even think was in question to reference an FAQ), and thus, without that clarification, would've played it wrong in a case where there's only one card, while others consider 0 cards to be shuffleable and would thus misinterpret it in the opposite direction
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silverspawn

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #110: This stays in play
« Reply #140 on: April 16, 2021, 05:28:13 am »
0

How is 'one or more' different from 'at least one'?

mxdata

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #110: This stays in play
« Reply #141 on: April 16, 2021, 07:37:32 pm »
+1

How is 'one or more' different from 'at least one'?

It's not.  "At least one" would work just as well as "one or more"

EDIT: Oh, I see now why you're asking.  I missed the updated version
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