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Author Topic: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?  (Read 16365 times)

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emtzalex

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
« Reply #75 on: March 17, 2021, 03:42:45 am »
+2

The non-10 card pile I came up with is the Zodiac pile, which (not surprisingly) has 12 card-shaped objects in it:








A Zodiac is similar to a Way. Like with Ways, when you play certain cards, instead of doing what is printed on the card, you may do what is printed on the active Zodiac. However, unlike Ways, which can replace the effect of any Action card, only cards with the Astrology type can have their text replaced by Ways.

When any Kingdom card (or card in the Black Market deck) has the Astrology type, the Zodiac pile is added (as the Boon deck is added with Fate cards or the Ruins pile with Looters). Unlike Boons or Hexes, Zodiacs are face up, and never shuffled. Instead, the Zodiac pile is placed on the table face up, with the Zodiacs in order (their position number is in a blue circle where the price of an Event/Project would be for easy reference), with the first Zodiac--Aires--on top, and the rest of the cards below it in order, ending with the final Zodiac--Pisces, on the bottom. Players can look through the pile at any time, but must keep it in order.

The top Zodiac on the pile is active. Astrology cards all have a mechanism by which the Zodiac pile can be "advanced," meaning the top Zodiac is moved to the bottom, and the next one becomes active (without changing the overall order). If the pile is advanced beyond the last Zodiac, it starts over. The Zodiacs at the top of the pile start out relatively weak, and they tend to get stronger, although they do not get consistently stronger.



And here is my submission, the card that interacts with the non-10 card pile, and the simplest Astrology card I came up with, the Astrologer:



Quote from: Astrologer
ASTROLOGER -- $3
ACTION - ASTROLOGY
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may advance the Zodiac pile.

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emtzalex

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
« Reply #76 on: March 17, 2021, 03:57:35 am »
0









Here is a text version of the Zodiacs, for people with issues seeing images.

1:
Quote from: Aires
Aires
+2 Actions
+$1

2:
Quote from: Taurus
Taurus
+1 Card
+2 Actions

3:
Quote from: Gemini
Gemini
Play up to 2 Treasures from your hand. Then pay all of your $ and gain 2 copies of a card costing up to the amount you paid.

4:
Quote from: Cancer
Cancer
+2 Actions
+$1
+2 Buys

5:
Quote from: Leo
Leo
+$3

6:
Quote from: Virgo
Virgo
+1 Action
Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Trash and/or discard any number of them. You may put one into your hand.

7:
Quote from: Libra
Libra
+1 Action
Discard a card, draw until you have 5 cards in hand.

8:
Quote from: Scorpio
Scorpio
+3 Cards
+1 Action
Discard 2 cards.

9:
Quote from: Sagittarius
Sagittarius
+2 Cards
+1 Action

10:
Quote from: Capricorn
Capricorn
+1 Card
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand.

11:
Quote from: Aquarius
Aquarius
+1 Action
This turn, cards (everywhere) cost $1 less.

12:
Quote from: Pisces
Pisces
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
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Aquila

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
« Reply #77 on: March 17, 2021, 05:55:29 am »
+1

Adjusted my entry:


Quote
Subsidy - Action Gatherer, $5 cost.
+1 Buy
+ $1 per $1 you've produced with Actions other than Subsidy this turn.

Doubling all $ was too wild, so now it just counts all the virtual $ your other Actions have made.
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faust

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
« Reply #78 on: March 17, 2021, 06:04:52 am »
0

This inspired me to go back to the original post on Subsidy.
These Resources are a Supply pile that behave just like Ruins. 10 of each, shuffled at game start and only the top is seen. But unlike Ruins, all 50 are used in every game. My reasoning for this is to create a bit of randomness. With more copies of each card available, there is more chance that one of the Resources may never show up early, or all 10 of one of them are near the top of the pile, etc.
I'm confused about this. How does adding all of them create randomness? If anything, it reduces randomness. With Ruins, the outcomes described (a copy not showing up for a long time, 10 of the same near the top of the pile) are already possible. They are even more extreme with Ruins because a given copy may not show up at all.
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gambit05

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
« Reply #79 on: March 17, 2021, 06:25:21 am »
0


I have modified my submitted card (updated in my original post):


   
Revenant
$2 - Action
Quote

+2 Actions
+1 Buy

  You may set this aside. If you
    do, +1 Card per empty Supply   
pile and return it to the Supply
 at the start of Clean-up.
--------------------------
Setup: 3 copies per player.


Minor functions: A cheap card that can provide Actions and an extra Buy, features important in many Kingdoms and player’s decks that should not be undervalued.
Revenant can be activated for additional card drawing when Supply piles are empty.

Main function: The ability to manipulate how many Supply piles are empty and thus, having some control over ending the game via 3 empty piles. This can be achieved by gaining Revenants, and by playing and returning them or not.

A note to the tactical use:
A player, who wants to force ending the game by 3 empty piles, or who just wants to have an empty pile for activating other cards (e.g. City, Paddock) tries to empty the Revenant pile or, if already empty, wants to keep it empty by not returning their Revenants to it. On the contrary, a player, who does not want to end the game via 3 empty piles or who does not want to activate other cards, tries to avoid an empty Revenant pile.
Additional options to manipulate the Revenant pile are trashing, remodeling, Exiling (particularly interesting), and (in a few cases) gaining Revenants back from the trash as well as cost reduction of cards.
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The Alchemist

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
« Reply #80 on: March 17, 2021, 07:10:20 am »
+5

My submission:

     

Split pile of 16 cards, in order Air, Water, Earth, Fire four times, Air on top.

Each element on their own is a nice little support card, but combined together they each provide a key component to making a pretty strong draw-to-x engine. Just make sure to not let your opponent grab all the Waters!
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Timinou

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
« Reply #81 on: March 17, 2021, 10:41:16 am »
0









Here is a text version of the Zodiacs, for people with issues seeing images.

1:
Quote from: Aires
Aires
+2 Actions
+$1

2:
Quote from: Taurus
Taurus
+1 Card
+2 Actions

3:
Quote from: Gemini
Gemini
Play up to 2 Treasures from your hand. Then pay all of your $ and gain 2 copies of a card costing up to the amount you paid.

4:
Quote from: Cancer
Cancer
+2 Actions
+$1
+2 Buys

5:
Quote from: Leo
Leo
+$3

6:
Quote from: Virgo
Virgo
+1 Action
Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Trash and/or discard any number of them. You may put one into your hand.

7:
Quote from: Libra
Libra
+1 Action
Discard a card, draw until you have 5 cards in hand.

8:
Quote from: Scorpio
Scorpio
+3 Cards
+1 Action
Discard 2 cards.

9:
Quote from: Sagittarius
Sagittarius
+2 Cards
+1 Action

10:
Quote from: Capricorn
Capricorn
+1 Card
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand.

11:
Quote from: Aquarius
Aquarius
+1 Action
This turn, cards (everywhere) cost $1 less.

12:
Quote from: Pisces
Pisces
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1

What was your thought process behind the order of the Zodiacs? I feel like having Ares as the first one isn't super useful, because if you open with Astrologer, you're unlikely to need the Village effect if you draw it on Turn 3 or 4. 
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Timinou

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
« Reply #82 on: March 17, 2021, 10:58:12 am »
0

This would be the version:



Not yet sure if I really like it better.

I don't think it's an issue that there could be strong combos with Adventures tokens, as that will only come up in a minority of games.

However, I do think it needs to cost more than $2.  It's easy to spam Wayfarers on some boards, but you still need to spend Buys to do so.  In this case, it's too easy to gain additional Missionaries, and I think with enough villages in your deck, they won't necessarily junk your deck that much.  I actually like the suggestion of a debt cost.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 10:59:17 am by Timinou »
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DunnoItAll

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
« Reply #83 on: March 17, 2021, 11:56:54 am »
+2

My first time entering!

How deep is my pile?  ZERO.

The Noble Knight is the star of this show.  A very souped up version of a Hireling that can only be earned by achieving the 5 Traits expected of a true Knight.

The Kingdom card is Tutelage.  There is one copy per player, but instead of starting in the Supply, each player begins the game with their copy in their discard pile. There is no Supply pile, so it doesn't count towards game-ending conditions, though Tutelage does count as one of the 10 Kingdom cards.

When Tutelage is in play, get one copy of each Trait per player and one copy of Noble Knight per player.  To gain the Noble Knight, gain all 5 Traits.  Then during your Buy phase, take a Noble Knight and remove the 5 Traits you had from the game (not trash and not available for other players).




« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 04:27:00 pm by DunnoItAll »
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gambit05

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
« Reply #84 on: March 17, 2021, 12:12:08 pm »
+1

Updated version:



I know there is some discussion about your card, although I haven't followed it in much detail. How about a drawback similar to Blacksmith (after drawing): "Reveal your hand. Discard a card per Missionary revealed."
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
« Reply #85 on: March 17, 2021, 12:37:37 pm »
+1

Interesting to think through the consequences of some of these cards turning up in the Black Market deck...

I think Pigeon is the funniest (all that set-up for nothing, with Pigeon itself being just an expensive Copper), followed by Tulip (I assume Rare Tulips cannot give you $2 if there is no Tulip pile).
« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 12:51:28 pm by infangthief »
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emtzalex

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
« Reply #86 on: March 17, 2021, 12:50:48 pm »
0

What was your thought process behind the order of the Zodiacs? I feel like having Ares as the first one isn't super useful, because if you open with Astrologer, you're unlikely to need the Village effect if you draw it on Turn 3 or 4.

The most direct answer to your question is that, according to the Internets, this is the order of the signs. In terms of what effects to give each one, I started by looking to official cards and/or for the ones that are represented by animals,  the Way of that animal. (Way of the Sheep gives +$2 so I wanted Aries to give some +$, way of the Ox gives +2 Action so I wanted Taurus to give some kind of Village effect, Capricorn is a goat (or sea goat[?]) so I wanted to have it trash, etc.).

As to the strength of the initial Zodiac versus the others in order, I very specifically wanted it to start out relatively weak, and have the strength of the effect improve, peaking around nine or ten before starting to going down slightly (in part so the drop-off from 12 to 1 when it is reset isn't so dramatic). I thought of it in terms of what an Action with the effect would cost. So:

No.NameRelated Official CardCost (estimate)
1AiresSquire (w/o other options or on-trash)<$2
2TaurusVillage$3
3Gemini(kind of like Talisman and a +Buy)  $3+
4CancerVilla (+extra Buy, less the on-buy effect)<$4
5LeoVarious terminal Golds, less their other effect  <$5
6VirgoSentry (but card comes from two viewed)~$5
7LibraNot sure. Hunting Lodge? ~$5
8ScorpioForum (less on-buy)Almost $5
9SagittariusLaboratory$5
10CapricornUpgrade (-gain)<$5
11AquariusHighway (less +Card)<$5
12PiscesPeddler/Fisherman<$5

(These are pretty vague, so some of them might be off.)

The idea is that you shouldn't be able to open with a $3 card that is immediately a Lab variant. You have to play the zero-net-effect cantrip in order to improve the active Zodiac, foregoing what you would have otherwise gotten. Of course, having options always makes a card better than not (so, for example, a "Smithy Village" that gave either +3 cards or +1 Action, +2 Villages would be extremely powerful, event though it lets you choose between two effects from cards that cost $3 and $4), so if you were on Leo and that $3 would let you hit a Canals or Platinum, you can put off improving your Astrology cards to otherwise improve your deck.

The other dynamic in play is that there is only one Zodiac pile, so if you make the effort to play 8 cantrips to turn them into a Lab, your opponent can just spend $3 to (a) get the Lab for herself, or (b) advance the pile further, and take it away from you. Of course, if you're pushing a terminal-draw big-money strategy, it may not be worth foregoing the buy to do (b) when your opponent will still have (relatively) valuable effects after the first two times you play it. But it does prevent building a strategy around just having one of the Zodiacs for the rest of the game (unless you can pile all of the Astrology cards).

Finally, I went back and forth on whether to call it a Zodiac pile or a Zodiac deck. I settled on the observation of piles (generally) being face up, and decks being face-down. Since this is face up, I called it a pile.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 01:31:27 pm by emtzalex »
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spineflu

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
« Reply #87 on: March 17, 2021, 01:18:53 pm »
+3

I'm changing out my entry for something much simpler

Quote
Gentry • $4 • Action - Victory
Choose one: +2 Actions; or +2 Cards.
-
1%

Pile is 16 deep, always (no change for 2p vs 3+p games)
name-wise, Gentry is sort of a lesser class of nobles
« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 01:37:04 pm by spineflu »
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
« Reply #88 on: March 17, 2021, 01:20:55 pm »
0


I think you have some of the greater than/less than symbols backwards. Fishing Village w/o Duration effect is worse than Fishing Village, not better (in fact, it's < because it's strictly worse than Squire as well). Likewise Upgrade without the gain is worse than Upgrade, Highway without +1 Card is worse than Highway (although Aquarius isn't strictly worse than Highway due to being Thronable), and pure Peddler is strictly worse than several s (Market, Artificer, Treasury, etc.).
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emtzalex

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
« Reply #89 on: March 17, 2021, 01:33:45 pm »
0


I think you have some of the greater than/less than symbols backwards. Fishing Village w/o Duration effect is worse than Fishing Village, not better (in fact, it's < because it's strictly worse than Squire as well). Likewise Upgrade without the gain is worse than Upgrade, Highway without +1 Card is worse than Highway (although Aquarius isn't strictly worse than Highway due to being Thronable), and pure Peddler is strictly worse than several s (Market, Artificer, Treasury, etc.).

You are absolutely correct, thank you. I corrected all of those (and changed Aries to the more apt Squire comparison).
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
« Reply #90 on: March 17, 2021, 05:49:49 pm »
+1

This inspired me to go back to the original post on Subsidy.
These Resources are a Supply pile that behave just like Ruins. 10 of each, shuffled at game start and only the top is seen. But unlike Ruins, all 50 are used in every game. My reasoning for this is to create a bit of randomness. With more copies of each card available, there is more chance that one of the Resources may never show up early, or all 10 of one of them are near the top of the pile, etc.
I'm confused about this. How does adding all of them create randomness? If anything, it reduces randomness. With Ruins, the outcomes described (a copy not showing up for a long time, 10 of the same near the top of the pile) are already possible. They are even more extreme with Ruins because a given copy may not show up at all.
Yeah, this is true. My answer to this is submit another Gatherer card:


Quote
Expedition Camp - Action Duration Gatherer, $4 cost.
If this is the first Expedition camp you've played this turn and the previous turn wasn't yours, take another turn after this one, and you draw 5 fewer cards for your next hand.
At the start of that turn, you may trash this to gain 3 Resources to your hand.
An Outpost variant that can be trashed for a random hand of 3 cards on the bonus turn. Only the first Expedition Camp played on a turn gives the bonus turn, but each extra Camp played can be trashed on the bonus turn for 3 more Resources to hand.
This needs at least 30 Resources in the pile to fully function no matter how many players there are. 50 lets Lurkers/Graverobbers enable more plays.

If you only want to judge one kingdom pile per entry Mahowrath, then Expedition Camp is my submission. Subsidy will be an auxiliary card showing how the Resources are designed to work with multiple Gatherers.
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majiponi

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
« Reply #91 on: March 17, 2021, 07:18:18 pm »
0


I have modified my submitted card (updated in my original post):


   
Revenant
$2 - Action
Quote

+2 Actions
+1 Buy

  You may set this aside. If you
    do, +1 Card per empty Supply   
pile and return it to the Supply
 at the start of Clean-up.
--------------------------
Setup: 3 copies per player.


Minor functions: A cheap card that can provide Actions and an extra Buy, features important in many Kingdoms and player’s decks that should not be undervalued.
Revenant can be activated for additional card drawing when Supply piles are empty.

Main function: The ability to manipulate how many Supply piles are empty and thus, having some control over ending the game via 3 empty piles. This can be achieved by gaining Revenants, and by playing and returning them or not.

A note to the tactical use:
A player, who wants to force ending the game by 3 empty piles, or who just wants to have an empty pile for activating other cards (e.g. City, Paddock) tries to empty the Revenant pile or, if already empty, wants to keep it empty by not returning their Revenants to it. On the contrary, a player, who does not want to end the game via 3 empty piles or who does not want to activate other cards, tries to avoid an empty Revenant pile.
Additional options to manipulate the Revenant pile are trashing, remodeling, Exiling (particularly interesting), and (in a few cases) gaining Revenants back from the trash as well as cost reduction of cards.

Too easy to forget to return. Encampment wording, or immediate returning is better, I suppose.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
« Reply #92 on: March 17, 2021, 08:18:42 pm »
0


I have modified my submitted card (updated in my original post):


   
Revenant
$2 - Action
Quote

+2 Actions
+1 Buy

  You may set this aside. If you
    do, +1 Card per empty Supply   
pile and return it to the Supply
 at the start of Clean-up.
--------------------------
Setup: 3 copies per player.


Minor functions: A cheap card that can provide Actions and an extra Buy, features important in many Kingdoms and player’s decks that should not be undervalued.
Revenant can be activated for additional card drawing when Supply piles are empty.

Main function: The ability to manipulate how many Supply piles are empty and thus, having some control over ending the game via 3 empty piles. This can be achieved by gaining Revenants, and by playing and returning them or not.

A note to the tactical use:
A player, who wants to force ending the game by 3 empty piles, or who just wants to have an empty pile for activating other cards (e.g. City, Paddock) tries to empty the Revenant pile or, if already empty, wants to keep it empty by not returning their Revenants to it. On the contrary, a player, who does not want to end the game via 3 empty piles or who does not want to activate other cards, tries to avoid an empty Revenant pile.
Additional options to manipulate the Revenant pile are trashing, remodeling, Exiling (particularly interesting), and (in a few cases) gaining Revenants back from the trash as well as cost reduction of cards.

Too easy to forget to return. Encampment wording, or immediate returning is better, I suppose.

It does use Encampment wording, though...
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spheremonk

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
« Reply #93 on: March 17, 2021, 09:45:08 pm »
+7


     

FAQ: Caravel is a ten-card Kingdom Supply pile; Carrack is a five-card non-Supply pile. When you play Caravel, if you have another Caravel in your hand, trashing is optional. If you do trash two Caravels: (1) you get the +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1 from the first one you played, but not the second one you trashed; and (2) you only gain a Carrack if there are Carracks left in the pile (there generally will be, unless there is a card that allows players to gain Caravel from the trash). If you play a Command card that plays Caravel, you only get Carrack if you are able to trash that card and an actual Caravel from your hand (i.e., if the Command card plays Caravel without moving it from the top of the deck, you will not be able to trash two Caravels to gain a Carrack).
« Last Edit: March 18, 2021, 02:44:51 pm by spheremonk »
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Timinou

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
« Reply #94 on: March 18, 2021, 08:46:21 am »
+5

EDIT: Updated Version


Quote from: Rabbit
$4 - Action-Reaction
+1 Card
+1 Action
If you have exactly 2 Rabbits in play, +$2 and gain a Rabbit.
-
When any player gains a Rabbit, you may return this from your hand to its pile for +2 Cards and +$1.

Quote from: Original Version


The number of Rabbits in the supply pile is 8 plus two times the number of players (i.e. 12 in a 2-player game, 14 in a 3-player game, etc).

The Reaction serves two purposes: (i) ability to use Rabbit for a larger handsize instead of the Peddler effect, and (ii) to potentially give players some control over the endgame to prevent a pileout. 

There are some tricks you could do with this, e.g. play an Ambassador to reveal a Rabbit so that other players gain a copy, and then react your own Rabbit(s) to draw.

I think a quasi-Peddler that can also gain copies of itself is fine at $4, especially given that playing the card can potentially help your opponents, but feedback is welcome.

EDIT: Made a slight tweak to change the Reaction from "When another player gains..." to "When any player gains...", similar to Falconer.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2021, 02:48:42 am by Timinou »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
« Reply #95 on: March 18, 2021, 10:07:35 am »
+1

Looking at Market Square wording, should this should say 'from your hand'? Wouldn't be absurd to return it from play.

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
« Reply #96 on: March 18, 2021, 10:08:21 am »
+1

This looks like a lot of fun!

I wonder if it could do with even more copies in the pile though; once they're gone they're gone (except for via Ambassador, Way of the Horse etc).
Maybe it could even withstand having +3 Cards in the Reaction part?
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faust

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
« Reply #97 on: March 18, 2021, 10:36:34 am »
+2



Quote from: Rabbit
$4 - Action-Reaction
+1 Card
+1 Action
If you have another Rabbit in play, +$1 and gain a Rabbit.
-
When any player gains a Rabbit, you may return this from your hand to its pile for +2 Cards.
This is extremely swingy. Basically, the first player to get their deck under control is able to insta-pile all the Rabbits and from then on will have like an extra $8 available every single turn.

EDIT: An illustration. Imagine a board with Donate and this. All I need to do is buy 2 Rabbits, then trash down to nothing except those, and I will get all the remaining Rabbits. I have won at that point because I have an overpowering advantage.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2021, 10:47:47 am by faust »
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Timinou

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
« Reply #98 on: March 18, 2021, 10:37:31 am »
+1

Looking at Market Square wording, should this should say 'from your hand'? Wouldn't be absurd to return it from play.

Thanks - yes, that definitely not the intent.  I've modified it in the OP.

This looks like a lot of fun!

I wonder if it could do with even more copies in the pile though; once they're gone they're gone (except for via Ambassador, Way of the Horse etc).
Maybe it could even withstand having +3 Cards in the Reaction part?

Thanks for the feedback.  I need to think about the number of copies a bit more.  I initially didn't want there to be too many in the supply, since being able to gain a bunch of quasi-Peddlers into your deck might be a bit too centralizing.  I also think it's fine that the ability to React with Rabbit can eventually disappear, although I don't want that to occur too early in the game.  I'm not sure I will be able to determine the optimal pile size without playtesting, but there's definitely a few things to consider.

With regards to making the Reaction give +3 Cards, I'll also have to think about it.  Does it make players less likely to want to play Rabbits for the Peddler effect, if that means your opponents can start their turn with 7 cards or more?  +3 Cards makes it more likely that your opponents can chain Rabbits.
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Timinou

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile?
« Reply #99 on: March 18, 2021, 10:48:08 am »
0



Quote from: Rabbit
$4 - Action-Reaction
+1 Card
+1 Action
If you have another Rabbit in play, +$1 and gain a Rabbit.
-
When any player gains a Rabbit, you may return this from your hand to its pile for +2 Cards.
This is extremely swingy. Basically, the first player to get their deck under control is able to insta-pile all the Rabbits and from then on will have like an extra $8 available every single turn.

I think you're right, especially if the Rabbits are uncontested early in the game.  I'll think about if there is a way to avoid that - one way could be to nerf the card so that it is no longer a cantrip and it becomes harder to gain multiple Rabbits during the same turn. 
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