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Author Topic: Weekly Design Contest #107: Coppers and Estates  (Read 9684 times)

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Timinou

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #107: Coppers and Estates
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2021, 01:34:31 am »
0

Quote from: Codger
Codger
$4 - Action
Exile a Copper from your hand and if you did, gain a card costing up to $1 per Copper on your Exile mat.  Otherwise, reveal a hand with no Coppers and Exile a Copper from the Supply.
-
Setup: Each player Exiles 2 Coppers from the Supply.
I think you can tighten up this language a bit:

"Exile a Copper from your hand and if you did, to gain a card costing up to $1 per Copper on your Exile mat."

See Beggar, Duplicate, Enhance, Fool's Gold, Haunted Mirror, Hostelry, Improve, Market Square, The Earth's Gift, The Sky's Gift, Tunnel, Urchin, Way of the Butterfly, and Way of the Rat.

Thanks - I've updated the OP with the wording you suggested.
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #107: Coppers and Estates
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2021, 01:54:13 am »
+1

Quote from: Codger
Codger
$4 - Action
Exile a Copper from your hand and if you did, gain a card costing up to $1 per Copper on your Exile mat.  Otherwise, reveal a hand with no Coppers and Exile a Copper from the Supply.
-
Setup: Each player Exiles 2 Coppers from the Supply.
I think you can tighten up this language a bit:

"Exile a Copper from your hand and if you did, to gain a card costing up to $1 per Copper on your Exile mat."

See Beggar, Duplicate, Enhance, Fool's Gold, Haunted Mirror, Hostelry, Improve, Market Square, The Earth's Gift, The Sky's Gift, Tunnel, Urchin, Way of the Butterfly, and Way of the Rat.

Thanks - I've updated the OP with the wording you suggested.

That wording is only used for optional effects. It isn't used for mandatory effects like Codger; see Pillage, Madman, and Wish.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2021, 01:55:53 am by Gubump »
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BBobb

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #107: Coppers and Estates
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2021, 11:58:50 am »
+2

Quote from: Codger
Codger
$4 - Action
Exile a Copper from your hand and if you did, gain a card costing up to $1 per Copper on your Exile mat.  Otherwise, reveal a hand with no Coppers and Exile a Copper from the Supply.
-
Setup: Each player Exiles 2 Coppers from the Supply.
I think you can tighten up this language a bit:

"Exile a Copper from your hand and if you did, to gain a card costing up to $1 per Copper on your Exile mat."

See Beggar, Duplicate, Enhance, Fool's Gold, Haunted Mirror, Hostelry, Improve, Market Square, The Earth's Gift, The Sky's Gift, Tunnel, Urchin, Way of the Butterfly, and Way of the Rat.

Thanks - I've updated the OP with the wording you suggested.

That wording is only used for optional effects. It isn't used for mandatory effects like Codger; see Pillage, Madman, and Wish.
I think either way is fine. The new Embargo text is a mandatory trash and uses "to". But anyway here is a list of mandatory self-trashers with either "to" or "if you do/did":
"to": Embargo
"if you do/did" or the similar: Treasure Map, Pillage, Madman, Wish, Magic Lamp

So yeah, you should probably use the "if you did/do" wording.
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emtzalex

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #107: Coppers and Estates
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2021, 01:04:27 pm »
+2

Quote from: Codger
Codger
$4 - Action
Exile a Copper from your hand and if you did, gain a card costing up to $1 per Copper on your Exile mat.  Otherwise, reveal a hand with no Coppers and Exile a Copper from the Supply.
-
Setup: Each player Exiles 2 Coppers from the Supply.
I think you can tighten up this language a bit:

"Exile a Copper from your hand and if you did, to gain a card costing up to $1 per Copper on your Exile mat."

See Beggar, Duplicate, Enhance, Fool's Gold, Haunted Mirror, Hostelry, Improve, Market Square, The Earth's Gift, The Sky's Gift, Tunnel, Urchin, Way of the Butterfly, and Way of the Rat.

Thanks - I've updated the OP with the wording you suggested.

That wording is only used for optional effects. It isn't used for mandatory effects like Codger; see Pillage, Madman, and Wish.

I'm not sure that there's such a clear optional/mandatory divide. Secret Cave is optional, but still uses "If you did..." while Mining Village changed from "If you did..." to "You may trash this for..."

For something like Secret Cave or Pillage, it would be grammatically difficult to use "for" language. Wish, Madman, and Treasure Map are all self-trashing/returning, and have to worry about being played in a way that prevent them from doing so (e.g. with Inheritance or Necromancer, which both use "leaving it there"). This one is different, and has specific instructions for what happens if the mandatory direction does not happen.
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Mahowrath

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #107: Coppers and Estates
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2021, 01:09:17 pm »
+6



Quote
Cablemaker - $3
Action

+1 Buy

You may trash a Copper from your hand. If you did, cards cost $1 less this turn.
Tricky Moneylenderish Bridge variant: On the one hand easier to acquire than Bridge, and who doesn't like trashing junk better than $1? On the other hand, this does less than nothing for your economy early game, and needs considerably more work to chain.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #107: Coppers and Estates
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2021, 07:00:26 pm »
+4



A terminal card, a weak trasher, a conditionally strong gainer,+ $4 if not used as a gainer. It could be a total dud in a hand with nothing you want to trash and nothing currently in the trash pile, but if you have nothing to trash, then there is probably something in the trash pile, so I'm not worried about that. It could end up basically being "discard a Copper or an Estate for $4" which doesn't compare well to Baron or Moneylender, but the ceiling is quite a bit higher, and it has some flexibility.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #107: Coppers and Estates
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2021, 02:30:05 am »
+2


Quote
Commission - $4
Action

Trash up to 3 Coppers from the supply.
Then, if there are fewer cards in the trash than in your deck, gain a card costing up to $5.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #107: Coppers and Estates
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2021, 04:06:01 am »
+1

^more?

fika monster

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #107: Coppers and Estates
« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2021, 04:19:28 am »
0


Quote
CONCESSION -- $7
PROJECT
During your turns, Estates are also Treasures with:
" $1 "
"You may return a Copper from your hand to the Supply for +$2; if you don't, gain a Copper to your hand."

I feel like the two different texts are somewhat distanced from each others. Also, i dont understand if  both texts are supposed to apply to estates, making them like a sort of Moneylender?
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faust

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #107: Coppers and Estates
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2021, 04:20:07 am »
0

^more?
No, it's supposed to be this way around.
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fika monster

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #107: Coppers and Estates
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2021, 04:20:55 am »
0

At first it,s an Lab, Then its a smithy but with a lot of Estates in your deck.



wondering on extra feedback on this. Can you play it too many times as a lab? Is it exciting/fun? Should i add more estates per player in the setup or remove the setup entirely?
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fika monster

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #107: Coppers and Estates
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2021, 04:23:15 am »
0


Quote
Commission - $4
Action

Trash up to 3 Coppers from the supply.
Then, if there are fewer cards in the trash than in your deck, gain a card costing up to $5.

Interesting gainer. In the beginning it can get you really good cards, but as the trash grows larger that becomes harder. it also gives you a sort of opportunity to attack your opponents that may have this card, by trashing more coppers than neccesary. In 4 player games this would become tricky. i like it.

Also it becomes fun it tower games. Probably nuts in Some landmark games
« Last Edit: March 09, 2021, 04:24:53 am by fika monster »
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faust

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #107: Coppers and Estates
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2021, 05:13:20 am »
+2

At first it,s an Lab, Then its a smithy but with a lot of Estates in your deck.



wondering on extra feedback on this. Can you play it too many times as a lab? Is it exciting/fun? Should i add more estates per player in the setup or remove the setup entirely?
I think it is not too strong as a Lab - Labs are good when you can spam them, and that's not really possible with Picnic. However, what might be too strong is that you are building a VP lead while draining a pile, and not slowing down your building. If there is any chance of a 3-pile ending then Picnic becomes a super important card.

The Estate setup thing is a bit clunky in my eyes. I am not sure whether it is necessary. If all players open with a Picnic, then on average everyone will get 4VP out of that (3VP with 4 players) without the setup clause, and 6VP with. So worst case this right now is a Lab that turns itself into a Province (if you choose to not play it when Estates are gone), which seems fairly powerful.
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silverspawn

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #107: Coppers and Estates
« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2021, 05:51:01 am »
+1

^more?
No, it's supposed to be this way around.

So, the idea is that you trash Coppers from the supply to disable the card for your opponent, provided you have the larger deck?

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #107: Coppers and Estates
« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2021, 06:36:15 am »
0

^more?
No, it's supposed to be this way around.

So, the idea is that you trash Coppers from the supply to disable the card for your opponent, provided you have the larger deck?

By "deck" here, are we talking about your draw pile, or all cards you own?
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #107: Coppers and Estates
« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2021, 06:41:39 am »
0

^more?
No, it's supposed to be this way around.

So, the idea is that you trash Coppers from the supply to disable the card for your opponent, provided you have the larger deck?

By "deck" here, are we talking about your draw pile, or all cards you own?
Draw pile. See e.g. Windfall.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #107: Coppers and Estates
« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2021, 07:36:12 am »
0

I also thought the entire deck. But you're right that your interpretation is consistent with past cards.

Mahowrath

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #107: Coppers and Estates
« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2021, 08:30:15 am »
0

Quote
Commission - $4
Action

Trash up to 3 Coppers from the supply.
Then, if there are fewer cards in the trash than in your deck, gain a card costing up to $5.

I wonder, would including discard pile in the calculation (as per pstone) help make this less swingy?
As it is, in a 2-player 4-3 mirror I make it ~35% that one player will immediately block the other's commission; and being a $5 gainer it's likely unskippable.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #107: Coppers and Estates
« Reply #43 on: March 09, 2021, 08:41:23 am »
+2

Quote
Homestead - $3
Victory

2VP
----
When you gain this, gain an Estate.

So this only becomes interesting in the endgame, but if you have the buys you can turn your $ into VP at a great rate and empty 2 piles into the bargain.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #107: Coppers and Estates
« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2021, 08:57:36 am »
+6



Once sent a beta version of this for a contest a good while ago. Liked the idea and made it less "feelsbad". So here's a revised Lease!

(The highroll is very much real here.)
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emtzalex

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #107: Coppers and Estates
« Reply #45 on: March 09, 2021, 01:02:09 pm »
+1


Quote
CONCESSION -- $7
PROJECT
During your turns, Estates are also Treasures with:
" $1 "
"You may return a Copper from your hand to the Supply for +$2; if you don't, gain a Copper to your hand."

I feel like the two different texts are somewhat distanced from each others. Also, i dont understand if  both texts are supposed to apply to estates, making them like a sort of Moneylender?

Yes, everything in quotation marks is now additional text on Estates, which are Treasure - Victory cards (like Harem) but with text in addition to the $ it gives (like Loan or Counterfeit). I copied the syntax from Inheritance, which this is meant to be a variant of. I put the $1 on it's own line because that is how all Treasures do it (I had to leave a space or else the card image generator rendered it back into a dollar sign).

If you buy the Project, then on your turn Estates become this:


Since Inheritance turns them into Action cards up to $4, I wanted to make them similar to Silver, always giving (or at least netting) $2. These do that by giving $1 outright and generating a second $1 by either: giving you $2 instead of $1 for a Copper in your hand (and getting rid of it) or by giving you another Copper to play. 

The mechanic is similar to Moneylender, but these will never completely rid you of Coppers (unless you stop playing them). I didn't want to do a purely de-Coppering mechanic for a few reasons. First, unlike Moneylender, these are not terminal Actions but Treasures that can be played in unlimited number each turn. It would be too easy to quickly rid your deck of all its Copper (once bought). Also, once that happened, the utility of Estates would go down significantly. One of the things I like about Inheritance is that it can flip the script and make buying estates a good idea. If the 3 Estates you had could quickly get rid of your Copper, you'd have no incentive to buy more. With this, once your initial Copper is gone you want to end up with 2 of these in hand, so you can gain then return the same Copper.

I hope that explained it.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #107: Coppers and Estates
« Reply #46 on: March 09, 2021, 04:57:49 pm »
+5


Quote
Cursed Blacksmith -
Gain a Curse. If you do, +3 Cards, +1 Buy, and +. If you don't, trash this.
-
When you gain this or trash this, gain a Copper.

Under the line text counts, right?

Edit: WHY IS IT SO BIG I'M SORRY

Thank you spineflu!
« Last Edit: March 09, 2021, 05:16:25 pm by NiCkLeB474 »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #107: Coppers and Estates
« Reply #47 on: March 09, 2021, 05:08:44 pm »
+2

gotta add that width=250 attribute on the img tag; i've added it for you, but click modify on your post to see what i did
« Last Edit: March 09, 2021, 05:16:52 pm by spineflu »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #107: Coppers and Estates
« Reply #48 on: March 09, 2021, 05:15:25 pm »
+3

gotta add that width=250 attribute on the img tag; i've added it for you, but click modify on your posr to see what i did

Thank you so much! First time here.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #107: Coppers and Estates
« Reply #49 on: March 10, 2021, 03:51:01 am »
+7

Coppers or Estates? Sure, I'll use both. And I'll keep it simple.



I’ve changed the text and price several times, seeking balance. The top has been Coppersmith (too powerful), a non-cantrip Merchant for Copper (not quite powerful enough), and now a non-cantrip double Merchant for Copper. I also considered several +Buy ideas in order to accelerate Estate/Copper gains: unconditional +1 Buy; conditional +1 Buy on first play of Copper (together with the +$1 or +$2); and even Pouch as an Heirloom, which feels thematic.

Regarding price, without trashing or Shelters, Copper Mine is immediately worth 3VP, so $5 didn’t seem great vis-a-vis Duchy. Then again, Duchy doesn’t force you to keep extra dead cards. But Duchy is never worth more than 3VP. So with the Merchant-like boost for Copper, $6 felt ok. I certainly wouldn’t pay more.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2021, 03:54:06 am by spheremonk »
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