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Author Topic: Henchmen & Preparations  (Read 2121 times)

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spineflu

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Henchmen & Preparations
« on: February 26, 2021, 07:48:15 pm »
+1

EDIT: If you're reading this, jump down about half a page unless you're interested in the workshopping that turns this into a pair of legitimate mechanics.

In the discord, I brought up the idea of a generic token, something that's not coffers or villagers but modular, per game.
And i kept thinking about it.
and I didn't want to do the project I was doing (i still don't).
So I sort of made it. It's a landscape-with-mat situation.

Quote
Mooks
You may spend tokens from this during your Action phase to perform the Mook action; each costs 1 Action to use.
They cost an action to use, sort of an anti-villager in that respect. But what do they do?

These are the ones i've come up with so far. Aiming for a power level maybe a little higher than Ways.


How do you get mooks? Each of these has a cost - you pay that cost (like you would an event), you get a Mook that you can spend during your action phase.

When to include mooks? You can just straightforward include the landscape for them; or, when a card has a Henchmen type, include a Mook landscape in the kingdom.
Here's some cards with Henchmen type:


Is this an idea that's worth further pursuing? Is this unclear at all? Is 'mooks' sort of anachronistic to dominion's setting? Do you think this adds to the game at all? Looking for... literally any feedback.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 11:00:26 am by spineflu »
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Mooks, Henchmen type
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2021, 09:02:38 pm »
+1

I like the general idea. I need some things cleared up for me, though:

1. What do the costs mean? Do you have to spend a Mook token, an Action, and that amount of $ to use a Mook ability? Or is the cost the number of Mook tokens you have to spend to use the Mook ability? Or is it that you have to pay that amount of $ up front once, but then after that it only costs a Mook token and an Action?
2. How do the Landscape cards work? Are they all included in a game with Henchmen, or do you shuffle them and select only one or a few to use in a game? Are they always available to all players, or do players "gain" them when they pay the cost?

Also, the use of the term "Mook" in general is confusing, as it seems to refer to both the tokens and the Landscape cards. I'd prefer it if you had one term for the tokens, and another for the cards.
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spineflu

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Re: Mooks, Henchmen type
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2021, 09:14:40 pm »
0

I like the general idea. I need some things cleared up for me, though:

1. What do the costs mean? Do you have to spend a Mook token, an Action, and that amount of $ to use a Mook ability? Or is the cost the number of Mook tokens you have to spend to use the Mook ability? Or is it that you have to pay that amount of $ up front once, but then after that it only costs a Mook token and an Action?
2. How do the Landscape cards work? Are they all included in a game with Henchmen, or do you shuffle them and select only one or a few to use in a game? Are they always available to all players, or do players "gain" them when they pay the cost?

Also, the use of the term "Mook" in general is confusing, as it seems to refer to both the tokens and the Landscape cards. I'd prefer it if you had one term for the tokens, and another for the cards.

so costs:
to do the action on the landscape, you spend an Action and remove a Mook token from your mat, during your Action phase.
the coin amount on the landscape is a potential target for buys, same as an event, project, or supply card; when you buy it, you get +1 Mooks (a mook token). This way you can have the cost scale with the effect.

The Landscape cards
Games with a Henchmen pile will have a Mook-landscape included. They give you ways to get Mooks other than buying them from the landscape.
You can also just mix the Mook-landscapes into your Way/Event/Landmark/Project deck and include one randomly that way - no henchmen pile needed (they'd be available as low-cost buy targets).
They're available to all players, like W/E/L/P cards. There's a recommended max of one per game, like Ways.

Terminology:
I agree. More than a little confusing. I need to come up with a better term for one or the other. Open to suggestions. That said, what the Mook tokens do is on the Mook landscape, and buying the Mook landscape gets you the Mook tokens, so.... maybe not that confusing?
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 09:25:52 pm by spineflu »
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Mooks, Henchmen type
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2021, 11:20:49 pm »
+1

OK, I understand now. I didn't grasp that you could gain the Mooks directly by buying the Landscape; I thought the only way to get them was with the Henchmen cards.

When it comes to buying them directly, they mostly seem pretty weak. Veterinarian, for instance, is similar to that infamous "Bomb" fan card: a one-shot that lets you trash another card. It's better in a few ways: neither it nor the trashed card take up space in your hand, and you can choose a time when you have a spare Action to play it. The fact that you can't target what you want to trash, though, is a big drawback: I can imagine the frustration of turning over a good card in the beginning of the game with this.

Overall, I'm not sold on the idea of letting players buy the Mooks directly. It adds complication - complication that confused me greatly - and the Mooks are weak for one-shot effects. I also don't really like that you have to spend an Action when you spend a token - that's the kind of rule that's easy to forget. Maybe you could get rid of that rule and weaken the Mooks that become too strong as a result?
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scolapasta

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Re: Mooks, Henchmen type
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2021, 12:07:05 am »
+1

My suggestion is to go the other way, and probably more radical:

Get rid of the mat and the henchmen* completely and just have the landscape cards as a hybrid event / project / way card.

During your buy phase, you pay the cost to put one of your cubes on the Mook (you can only do have one cube on there). And then you can use an Action to remove the cube and do what it says (once you do that you can then later, buy the Mook again).

Like @Commodore Chuckles said, you might have to make them cheaper or stronger, since they cost you a buy, some $, AND an action. But they are very flexible, once bought.


* Actually maybe Henchman would be a good name for the type, since they're cards you temporarily "hire" to do something for you when you call them (in that way, they'd also be like reserve cards.)
« Last Edit: February 27, 2021, 04:33:18 pm by scolapasta »
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Mooks, Henchmen type
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2021, 09:34:34 am »
+1

Personally, I like the idea of having actual cards in your deck that give tokens whose abilities change from game to game.
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scolapasta

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Re: Mooks, Henchmen type
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2021, 06:47:45 pm »
+2

Personally, I like the idea of having actual cards in your deck that give tokens whose abilities change from game to game.

I think that could be good too. I think one or the other, but not both, would be better.

If you go this way, you could still make the Landscape cards be "Henchman" type, and the card time that references them be "Boss"
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emtzalex

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Re: Mooks, Henchmen type
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2021, 02:52:25 am »
+1

Let me know if

Mook is a landscape, like an Event or Project. You can add a Mook to the game like you would any other landscape; alternatively, if one of the Kingdom cards has the Henchman type, you would add a Mook (if there wasn't already one available). You say:
There's a recommended max of one per game, like Ways.
During your Buy phase, you can spend the price on the Mook and a Buy to gain a Mook token to your Mook mat. You can also gain those Mook tokens by using cards with the Henchman type.

During your Action phase, you may spend one Mook token and an Action for the effect listed on the Mook.

Is this correct? If so, my thoughts are below.



This is an interesting idea. I have toyed with something similar: I had the idea of Skills, which were landscapes that a player could gain using a specific Kingdom card; each Skill had a cost in Actions, and could be used as many times as one could afford during the Action phased. I quickly shelved the idea as it would only really work with a ton of villages, which you would not otherwise probably want.

The idea of spending 1 token and 1 Action is definitely an improvement on my initial concept. However, I think there are some things to consider:

First, you say that only one Mook is "recommended", but I think that would actually need to be a rule. If they are going to be of different power levels, and therefore at a different price, then it is a problem that I can buy a Waif at $2 but spend my Mook tokens on a Bouncer that usually costs $4. I guess you could have different color Mook tokens, but that seems like an additional complication.

The second issue with the Mooks having significantly different power levels is that it makes the Henchman cards hard to design, especially in terms of price/balance. Getting three Waif tokens is a significantly different proposition to gaining three Bouncer tokens, so while the former is an easy pass, the latter is a must-buy. If you're going to use both the the Mooks and the Henchmen, the Mooks either have to all be at a pretty similar power level, or they have to cost a different number of Mook tokens. (If you did the latter, their $ cost could always buy you that many tokens, while the Henchmen would give out a fixed number).

Third, when designing the Mooks, you need to keep in mind that when comparing their effect to the effect on a regular Action card, the Mook has a hidden +1 Card. The parallel I would draw is that when you evaluate the "on the next turn" effect in a Duration card compared to an event, there is a hidden +1 Card, +1 Action (so getting +1 Card from a Caravan is the equivalent of playing a Lab, as the result is 6 cards in hand and 1 Action). Another way to think about this is that all Action cards have a hidden -1 Card -1 Action, because generally to play them you have to spend an Action and play one of the cards from your hand; this is why cantrips have essentially no effect, returning your handsize and number of Actions to where it was before you played it.

While still requiring you to spend an Action, Mooks do not require you to play a card from your hand. Thus, if you wanted the Mook Lackeys to simulate the existing official card of the same name (which is another issue, but I get that right now you're just floating a general idea), it should be +1 Card. (The net result of playing the card Lackeys from a hand of 5 cards is that you have 1 fewer Action and 6 cards.) Similarly, Bouncer is a Horse you can will into your hand at any time, which also protects you from Attacks until the following turn. I think this would have some tracking issues, and I'm guessing you didn't intend it to give both a protection and the equivalent of a lab.

Overall I do think the core concept is a good idea worth pursuing. I do like the modular format and the ability for that effect to be different based on a different landscape.

Regarding theme/flavor, I do think it's a bit anachronistic. It made me think of the scene in Robin Hood Men in Tights when Prince John and the Sheriff hire a mafia don (played by Dom Deloise doing a Marlon Brando impression) to kill Robin. There the anachronism is a joke, but here I'm not sure it works.



I do have a different suggestion. When I was designing my (absurdly oversized) Winter Gear pile for the WDC involving Snow, I looked into medieval snow removal, and found an "Ask a Historian" reddit page about it, where the historian quoted a passage from what was basically an operations manual from a medieval monastery about what to do when it snows, and one of the things it mentioned was hiring so-many "day talers" to do various tasks. The historian explained that a day taler (or daytaler) was a class of worker back then who would be hired on a day-to-day basis do various tasks (roughly the equivalent of what we would now call a day laborer). Ever since I've been thinking of ways a day taler might be used in the game, and this might be it.

Instead of Mooks, the landscapes could be Jobs, and mat could gain you Taler Tokens. Different power level jobs could require a different number to tokens, and the cost could indicate both how much it cost and how many Talers it gained. The Kingdom (or non-supply) cards could have the Daytaler type, and add tokens to the Taler mat.

It might look something like this:






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spineflu

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Re: Mooks, Henchmen type
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2021, 10:54:31 am »
0

Let me know if

Mook is a landscape, like an Event or Project. You can add a Mook to the game like you would any other landscape; alternatively, if one of the Kingdom cards has the Henchman type, you would add a Mook (if there wasn't already one available). You say:
There's a recommended max of one per game, like Ways.
During your Buy phase, you can spend the price on the Mook and a Buy to gain a Mook token to your Mook mat. You can also gain those Mook tokens by using cards with the Henchman type.

During your Action phase, you may spend one Mook token and an Action for the effect listed on the Mook.

Is this correct? If so, my thoughts are below.

this is correct. However, the more i think about it, the more i realize this is two separate but similar mechanics that should be reworded (and CommodoreChuckles & scolapasta are both right).

Underling (card type) cards give Henchmen tokens; Henchmen can be spent as an Action to do a Job (out-of-supply Action card). Jobs should be approximately a $3-$4 cost Action. There'd be maybe a 12-card pile of Jobs to choose from at setup - include one Job next to the supply if there are Underlings in the Kingdom.

Preparations (landscape type) are project-esque landscapes where you buy them, put your cube-marker on them, and then you can spend an Action to "do" something you've made Preparations for (removing your cube-marker). There'd be, idk, 20?ish Preparations, and one or two could be included at setup (like you would for WELPs). These can be assigned cost according to their power level.

Since these cost Actions to perform, neither should give actions.

I think the Daytaler/Talers mechanic is similar, but this is simpler.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 11:02:14 am by spineflu »
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spineflu

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Henchmen
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2021, 11:52:38 am »
0

So here's a revamped version; the Jobs are all hypothetical and may have issues, feel free to point those out:
Henchmen + Underlings + Jobs
Underling (card type) cards give Henchmen tokens; Henchmen can be spent with an Action to do a Job (out-of-supply Action card). Jobs should be approximately a $3-$4 cost Action. There'd be maybe a 12-card pile of Jobs to choose from at setup - include one Job next to the supply if there are Underlings in the Kingdom.


Quote
Henchmen
During your Action phase, you may spend an Action and a Henchman to play the Job, leaving it there.

Underlings:


Jobs
These are all "top of my head" ideas about where to go with this; they likely have issues.



You can almost do potion-cost-y stuff with these since they wouldn't be available in the opening.
Ignore the (This is not in the Supply) on Heist, none of these are in the supply.



I'll post the Preparations later
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 06:52:40 pm by spineflu »
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emtzalex

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Re: Henchmen
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2021, 03:20:05 pm »
+1

My first thought/question is: Why aren't the Jobs landscape cards? The almost universal rule is that cards with a vertical alignment go into your deck and are usually used when you get them in your hand (or when some other card allows you to play them under other circumstances); landscapes are card-shaped objects that never go into your deck, and affect the game through some other mechanism. Inheritance is a narrow exception to the first part of rule, but even there the card you inherit is in the supply and otherwise available to be purchased and played from your deck (and the cards you use to play it, Estates, also fit the rule). If a Job would never go into a player's deck, then I think precedent would suggest it should be a landscape. I kind of see these as kind of like a combination of Boons and Events.

There'd be maybe a 12-card pile of Jobs to choose from at setup - include one Job next to the supply if there are Underlings in the Kingdom.
My next thought is there should maybe more than one per game. Going back to Boons, I am thinking of Druid, which sets aside three of the 12 Boons to choose from. For example, in a game without trashing (or where trashing is limited to Coppers), Muckrake becomes kind of useless. However, I think the mechanic is potentially more interesting if you have Jobs that are only sometimes worth using. On the other hand, this might make the mechanic too strong.

Since these cost Actions to perform, neither should give actions.
I'm not sure this has to be true (although if you want it to be, it's your mechanic). Action cards cost an Action, but many give one (or more) back. You still have to have an Action beforehand (affecting the order you can play things in) and have to get the card into your hand (in the case of Action cards) or (in this case) get the Henchman token. Also, if you gain the Henchman using a terminal Action card (without a village/Villager), you won't be able to use the Henchman right away. It might make sense for some Jobs/Preparations to be non-terminal. Another analogy I'd make is to Events. Each costs a Buy, but some give you a Buy back.

I think the Daytaler/Talers mechanic is similar, but this is simpler.
I agree. I was trying to keep the two concepts (being able to buy the effect and being able to gain the tokens using cards) as part of a single mechanic, while still accounting for different power levels.


Some notes on some specific cards:
The text below the $2 should start with "When you play this..." (See, Idol and Magic Lamp; also, e.g., Coin of the Realm, Counterfeit, Diadem, Relic, Spoils, Supplies, and Treasure Trove).


Am I correct in presuming that the Henchmen you spend resolving each of these are in addition to the one you have to spend to initially play it?


As previously mentioned, I feel like there are a lot of games in which this would not be all that useful. If you read the Secret History of Graverobber he talks about the need for a card that gains from the trash to put useful things into the trash. On flip side, you notice that none of the official cards that gain from the trash can gain Estates (unless they are Actions via Inheritance, then Lurker), Provinces, or Colonies. I feel like this would almost always be used to try to vacuum up a bunch of trashed Estates right at the end of the game (and because it's scalable you can just slowly collect Henchmen to do it once at the end). My other concern is that in games with Salt the Earth, this is way too powerful (although that is mitigated by the fact that you would usually have to wait until your following turn to Muckrake the Victory card, but the effect of that would be that players would be forced to keep 2 Henchmen on their mat at all times).


I am not totally clear how this works. If I spend three Henchmen and discard three cards, do I gain a card costing up to (a) $3 or (b) $6? I'm pretty sure it's (b), but that's not totally clear from the text. I would also suggests that the only function of "up to" is to allow players to discard cards gratuitously, which (I think) is not the point, so "costing exactly" would be better (see Artificer).

This is another one that is of extremely limited use in most Kingdoms (unless it is paired with Muckrake, which if there is only 1 Job per game it can't be). If you stick with 1 Job per Kingdom, I would suggest adding +1 Action, so that at least one strategy would be to collect enough of this to give you the power to trash a pile and (if two other piles are gone) end the game.



I still really like the core concept. I will probably have more thoughts on this in the future.

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spineflu

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Re: Henchmen
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2021, 03:50:12 pm »
0

My first thought/question is: Why aren't the Jobs landscape cards? The almost universal rule is that cards with a vertical alignment go into your deck and are usually used when you get them in your hand (or when some other card allows you to play them under other circumstances); landscapes are card-shaped objects that never go into your deck, and affect the game through some other mechanism. Inheritance is a narrow exception to the first part of rule, but even there the card you inherit is in the supply and otherwise available to be purchased and played from your deck (and the cards you use to play it, Estates, also fit the rule). If a Job would never go into a player's deck, then I think precedent would suggest it should be a landscape. I kind of see these as kind of like a combination of Boons and Events.
Because this lets me put Enough Types on the cards that they're attacks when they need to be attacks (without bustin' out the reading glasses); The sort-of precedent here is the Zombies with Necromancer. I really don't see Jobs as Boons or Events - the former happens immediately on playing some other card, the latter only happens in your buy phase. I've also explored this non-supply individual Action card, not gainable to your deck thing with Breakthrough and Harlequin. It's not broken or anything, just different, and not hard, provided people are familiar with the updated Command card rules.


There'd be maybe a 12-card pile of Jobs to choose from at setup - include one Job next to the supply if there are Underlings in the Kingdom.
My next thought is there should maybe more than one per game. Going back to Boons, I am thinking of Druid, which sets aside three of the 12 Boons to choose from. For example, in a game without trashing (or where trashing is limited to Coppers), Muckrake becomes kind of useless. However, I think the mechanic is potentially more interesting if you have Jobs that are only sometimes worth using. On the other hand, this might make the mechanic too strong.
Yeah, that's definitely something to test.

Since these cost Actions to perform, neither should give actions.
I'm not sure this has to be true (although if you want it to be, it's your mechanic). Action cards cost an Action, but many give one (or more) back. You still have to have an Action beforehand (affecting the order you can play things in) and have to get the card into your hand (in the case of Action cards) or (in this case) get the Henchman token. Also, if you gain the Henchman using a terminal Action card (without a village/Villager), you won't be able to use the Henchman right away. It might make sense for some Jobs/Preparations to be non-terminal. Another analogy I'd make is to Events. Each costs a Buy, but some give you a Buy back.
Again, something to test.

Some notes on some specific cards:

Am I correct in presuming that the Henchmen you spend resolving each of these are in addition to the one you have to spend to initially play it?
Yes, correct.

As previously mentioned, I feel like there are a lot of games in which this would not be all that useful. If you read the Secret History of Graverobber he talks about the need for a card that gains from the trash to put useful things into the trash. On flip side, you notice that none of the official cards that gain from the trash can gain Estates (unless they are Actions via Inheritance, then Lurker), Provinces, or Colonies. I feel like this would almost always be used to try to vacuum up a bunch of trashed Estates right at the end of the game (and because it's scalable you can just slowly collect Henchmen to do it once at the end). My other concern is that in games with Salt the Earth, this is way too powerful (although that is mitigated by the fact that you would usually have to wait until your following turn to Muckrake the Victory card, but the effect of that would be that players would be forced to keep 2 Henchmen on their mat at all times).
Exactly. It's useful for games of chicken and, in games with good trashing, that's at least a six point swing. Add a handsize attack on there and it's designed to be a final round KO. It does not have a ton of utility outside of that situation. It's also useful with "Enlist" to generate more henchmen.


I am not totally clear how this works. If I spend three Henchmen and discard three cards, do I gain a card costing up to (a) $3 or (b) $6? I'm pretty sure it's (b), but that's not totally clear from the text. I would also suggests that the only function of "up to" is to allow players to discard cards gratuitously, which (I think) is not the point, so "costing exactly" would be better (see Artificer).
b. Something worth cleaning up, really.

This is another one that is of extremely limited use in most Kingdoms (unless it is paired with Muckrake, which if there is only 1 Job per game it can't be). If you stick with 1 Job per Kingdom, I would suggest adding +1 Action, so that at least one strategy would be to collect enough of this to give you the power to trash a pile and (if two other piles are gone) end the game.
that's a great point. Maybe having +1 Action on these isn't super taboo.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 06:55:09 pm by spineflu »
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Re: Henchmen
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2021, 04:21:40 pm »
+1

The text below the $2 should start with "When you play this..." (See, Idol and Magic Lamp; also, e.g., Coin of the Realm, Counterfeit, Diadem, Relic, Spoils, Supplies, and Treasure Trove).
Actually, from the 2020 printings onward, there is no need for this. (See IGG, Loan, Contraband, Venture, Bank, Fool's Gold)
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spineflu

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Re: Henchmen
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2021, 06:29:07 pm »
0

The text below the $2 should start with "When you play this..." (See, Idol and Magic Lamp; also, e.g., Coin of the Realm, Counterfeit, Diadem, Relic, Spoils, Supplies, and Treasure Trove).
Actually, from the 2020 printings onward, there is no need for this. (See IGG, Loan, Contraband, Venture, Bank, Fool's Gold)
yeah the screwup here was not including the "$2" preview in the corners
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