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[SpaceAnemone]

This post just strikes me as newbie trying to contribute meaningfully. I don't think it's a townie post particularly, and yes it's hedgy, but haven't we actually decided that hedginess is not actually a scum characteristic? Isn't it something I falsely claimed was hedgy 130 games ago?

Besides "should we just exile lurkers" is a point we end up debating every other game, and it turns out the pro-town answer is "basically, yes."

Okay, so a bunch of my notes from last night are out of date already, but I'll reformat them soon. This post from Robz pings me as the sort of thing I scumread him for in other games because language like "haven't we actually decided that..." seems to be telling other people how to think in a way that just takes it as given that people will agree with him without him actually having to back it up.

The other thing that's interesting to me is that he's doubled down on his mcmc vote, whereas I opened the post I was writing last night (the one that's sitting in another tab, that  I need to update and post at some point) with the acknowledgement that my mcmc vote was clearly RVS and needed to be updated, and my whole post was just looking at what appeared to be justifiable wagons and at the people driving most of the conversation in-thread at that point.

PPE 2 or 3?

[mcmcsalot]

Why even bother giving out a day pass if it can be revoked at any time? Seems like false advertising.

My thought as well!

Because giving out day passes is a fun laze-fair towny thing to do but he also doesn’t want to count out joining a super quick wagon. Once he can think of a good excuse to that is.

[Robz888]

This post from Robz pings me as the sort of thing I scumread him for in other games because language like "haven't we actually decided that..." seems to be telling other people how to think in a way that just takes it as given that people will agree with him without him actually having to back it up.

... You know I'm a pundit for a living, right?

[Robz888]

In any case I think the points I made in that post were correct.

[Robz888]

Vote: Space for being wrong

[SpaceAnemone]

This post from Robz pings me as the sort of thing I scumread him for in other games because language like "haven't we actually decided that..." seems to be telling other people how to think in a way that just takes it as given that people will agree with him without him actually having to back it up.

... You know I'm a pundit for a living, right?

Yeah, but there's giving opinions and then there's repackaging stuff for your own agenda. I'm not happy about the latter, because I like my content to be fact based and backed up by evidence. And oddly enough, I'm a research scientist for a living :-)

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote: Space for being wrong

Hehe, the first thought that pops into my head here is that this is exactly the sort of disagreement we've actively talked about wanting to fabricate when we're both on the scumteam, isn't it? Sadly, I can guarantee we're not both scum here because I'm town!

Anyway, I don't think a claim of "we actually decided" anything in a group like this can reasonably be backed up as an open-and-shut case, therefore I'm not really wrong. I'm also not even sure I support the "hedginess isn't scummy" argument, because I think as scum you do have to put in some effort to keep your options open and be able to pivot onto an interesting wagon. At best I'd grant that hedginess in D1 is not usually necessary for scum, since nobody knows what's going on and there are probably plenty of open wagons to jump on.

The other option (which would allow you to claim I'm actually wrong!) is that I'm just not part of the "we" with whom you're agreeing on the thing. It's possible, in that I've only been playing on this site for ~4.5 years, so I'm a relative newbie to the likes of some of you :-P

[SpaceAnemone]

Here's a current Space Count:

mathdude (4): Dylan32, faust, ashersky, EFHW
ashersky (1): gkrieg13
mcmcsalot (1): SpaceAnemone
jotheonah (1): mcmcsalot
EFHW (2): WestCoastDidds, MiX
SpaceAnemone (2): mathdude, Robz888
Robz888 (1): jotheonah

The post and word counts (which exclude quoted text) are relevant to something I was doing in last night's post, looking at joth in particular because he was getting heat for being active, so I may as well share these so that anyone else can draw conclusions from them:

Player post counts:
   27 jotheonah (mean 33.4 words/post)
   25 Robz888 (mean 20.8 words/post)
   24 MiX (mean 50.0 words/post)
   19 faust (mean 15.6 words/post)
   19 ashersky (mean 40.9 words/post)
   18 mcmcsalot (mean 33.0 words/post)
   13 EFHW (mean 17.1 words/post)
   13 Dylan32 (mean 83.7 words/post)
   11 WestCoastDidds (mean 53.9 words/post)
   11 mathdude (mean 67.9 words/post)
   8 SpaceAnemone (mean 101.4 words/post)
   3 gkrieg13 (mean 12.0 words/post)

Player word counts:
   1201 MiX
   1088 Dylan32
   902 jotheonah
   811 SpaceAnemone
   778 ashersky
   747 mathdude
   594 mcmcsalot
   593 WestCoastDidds
   519 Robz888
   296 faust
   222 EFHW
   36 gkrieg13

[Robz888]

Vote: Space for being wrong

Hehe, the first thought that pops into my head here is that this is exactly the sort of disagreement we've actively talked about wanting to fabricate when we're both on the scumteam, isn't it? Sadly, I can guarantee we're not both scum here because I'm town!

Anyway, I don't think a claim of "we actually decided" anything in a group like this can reasonably be backed up as an open-and-shut case, therefore I'm not really wrong. I'm also not even sure I support the "hedginess isn't scummy" argument, because I think as scum you do have to put in some effort to keep your options open and be able to pivot onto an interesting wagon. At best I'd grant that hedginess in D1 is not usually necessary for scum, since nobody knows what's going on and there are probably plenty of open wagons to jump on.

The other option (which would allow you to claim I'm actually wrong!) is that I'm just not part of the "we" with whom you're agreeing on the thing. It's possible, in that I've only been playing on this site for ~4.5 years, so I'm a relative newbie to the likes of some of you :-P

A long, long time ago, I thought emojis were scummy!

[SpaceAnemone]

Space. Space don’t work they just say space stinger space

I am finding you quite confusing :-P

Vote: mcmc

Then it’s working! You scum?

I just realised I never responded to this! No, not scum this time round!

[SpaceAnemone]

Here's the long set of reasoning I was working on last night, updated for the current game-state:

Robz is contributing more than his bored D1 self often does (he's second on the number-of-posts leader-board, up from third last night), and I'm not sure how to interpret that. Him coming after me now is actually kind of welcome, though, because he's at least giving me something to engage with on my own terms, and everyone knows I have a hard time in D1 when there isn't actually anything to analyse yet (for those of us who're not great with tone or emotion, at least!).

Topping the number-of-posts count is joth, though he's only third on word-count, because his stuff tends to be one-liners. I'm against voting for anyone generating that much interaction if none of it is coming out particularly scummy, though.

Second place on the the number-of-words count is Dylan, even though he's way down the list on the number-of-posts, because I'm the only one who beats Dylan in words-per-post usually :-P I feel like I'm broadly in agreement with most of their posts, and there's actual scum-hunting sort of content, so all good there. It's also nice to see mathdude also creeping up there in terms of being someone who makes wordy posts.

MiX tops the word count and is second-place in number of posts, and is pretty classic overconfident and slightly demanding MiX. Though the newbie-helping is good; I'd have been trying to be helpful there except MiX generally got in before me with things like the new community standards of not using "lynch" language, and in making sure the civility pledge was signed and stuff :-)

Word-sparse players are gkrieg, faust and EFHW, which is not too unsurprising. Ash sounds really agreeable and not at all scummy, which for me is a big departure from the norm. But voting someone because I feel they're being uncharacteristic in making me agree with them would be very backwards, so let's not go there.

Who does that leave? Mcmc and Didds are very middle-of-the-road in terms of numbers of posts and numbers of words. I recall rea-reading Didds and thinking that she's not really being any more fluffy that usual, and has some opinions in there. Mcmc started out quite low-content (except where the man-bun is involved!) for about the first half of his posts to date, but then they got actually quite content-full.

In fact, mcmc really does seem to double down on his case against Joth, even though he acknowledged that Joth is posting a lot. I think that's a weird thing to push a D1 wagon on. And meanwhile he's also throwing shade at Ash on the side for the revoked daypass. So yeah, my big post of exploring where to move my vote to has apparently concluded that I'm okay leaving it on mcmc.

[SpaceAnemone]

A long, long time ago, I thought emojis were scummy!

See, that's the kind of opinion I like. Self-contained, and not phrased as if everyone would be wrong to disagree with you :-)

[WestCoastDidds]

Emojis are awesome. As are any and all in-game memes. Also ❤️ You all

I appreciate the impressions post, Space. I’ve been scattered this week with post-ice storm fall out and haven’t been able to gather my thoughts.

I was surprised, well maybe that’s the wrong word, at how little we’ve heard from gkrieg. I get being scarce on the weekends, but uhm...it’s Tuesday.

I’m totally here for more engaged Robz, though. And all the ways that what we do for money is evident in our play.

[jotheonah]

This post from Robz pings me as the sort of thing I scumread him for in other games because language like "haven't we actually decided that..." seems to be telling other people how to think in a way that just takes it as given that people will agree with him without him actually having to back it up.

... You know I'm a pundit for a living, right?

You’re not that kind of pundit. You hate that kind of pundit. Every other piece of yours I read is calling out bad takes and hypocrisy.

[MiX]

   25 Robz888 (mean 20.8 words/post)
   24 MiX (mean 50.0 words/post)

This is almost an insult. On the other hand, a post I was writing just got deleted, so I'm really not in the mood to fix this.

@Dylan: 1. Yeah, I did want people off the math wagon, because I'm townreading him. 2. It's scummy if you assume he has a meta where doing that would be scum aligned. The post itself is simply brutally honest, which pings off scummy, but it's not a scum play.

Vote: Space for being wrong

Can you explain this, and your previous vote, with more detail?

In fact, mcmc really does seem to double down on his case against Joth, even though he acknowledged that Joth is posting a lot. I think that's a weird thing to push a D1 wagon on. And meanwhile he's also throwing shade at Ash on the side for the revoked daypass. So yeah, my big post of exploring where to move my vote to has apparently concluded that I'm okay leaving it on mcmc.

At the end of the first 2 sentences, I would've assumed you were townreading the heck out of mcmc.

This post just strikes me as newbie trying to contribute meaningfully. I don't think it's a townie post particularly, and yes it's hedgy, but haven't we actually decided that hedginess is not actually a scum characteristic? Isn't it something I falsely claimed was hedgy 130 games ago?

Besides "should we just exile lurkers" is a point we end up debating every other game, and it turns out the pro-town answer is "basically, yes."

Okay, so a bunch of my notes from last night are out of date already, but I'll reformat them soon. This post from Robz pings me as the sort of thing I scumread him for in other games because language like "haven't we actually decided that..." seems to be telling other people how to think in a way that just takes it as given that people will agree with him without him actually having to back it up.

The other thing that's interesting to me is that he's doubled down on his mcmc vote, whereas I opened the post I was writing last night (the one that's sitting in another tab, that  I need to update and post at some point) with the acknowledgement that my mcmc vote was clearly RVS and needed to be updated, and my whole post was just looking at what appeared to be justifiable wagons and at the people driving most of the conversation in-thread at that point.

PPE 2 or 3?

The quoted post doesn't actually matter, it's not part of an argument as far as I can tell.

A long, long time ago, I thought emojis were scummy!

See, that's the kind of opinion I like. Self-contained, and not phrased as if everyone would be wrong to disagree with you :-)

Is this towny, scummy, nully, or something else entirely?


I feel like I have more thoughts, just not the will to write them.

[Swowl]

Vote Count 1.4:
mathdude (4): Dylan32, faust, Ashersky, EFHW
SpaceAnenome (2): mathdude, Robz888
EFHW (2): WestCoastDidds, MiX
MCMC (1): SpaceAnenome
Joth (1): MCMC
Ashersky (1): gkrieg
Robz888 (1): Joth
Not Voting (0):

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to Exile.
Day 1 ends February 26th at 10:40pm Forum Time.

[SpaceAnemone]

In fact, mcmc really does seem to double down on his case against Joth, even though he acknowledged that Joth is posting a lot. I think that's a weird thing to push a D1 wagon on. And meanwhile he's also throwing shade at Ash on the side for the revoked daypass. So yeah, my big post of exploring where to move my vote to has apparently concluded that I'm okay leaving it on mcmc.

At the end of the first 2 sentences, I would've assumed you were townreading the heck out of mcmc.

If that is true then you'd be reading me backwards, I think. In a scum!mcmc world, in which he's finding reasons to vote joth but is then called on it, the two leading options are either to find another sham reason to vote another player (not too easy in early game where we don't have strong suspicions on anyone yet), or to turn up the apparent volume on the existing suspicion and double down on it while sounding convincing.

Given my own reading of the situation, I just think there's too little evidence around to be that sure of it. Then there's a strong bias against voting someone who's actually active in the game. So to start writing posts that sound more certain just feels like there's a risk that there's other motivation involved.

Now your turn. Why does it sound like that would be a townie narrative instead of a scummy one for mcmc?

[SpaceAnemone]

This post just strikes me as newbie trying to contribute meaningfully. I don't think it's a townie post particularly, and yes it's hedgy, but haven't we actually decided that hedginess is not actually a scum characteristic? Isn't it something I falsely claimed was hedgy 130 games ago?

Besides "should we just exile lurkers" is a point we end up debating every other game, and it turns out the pro-town answer is "basically, yes."

Okay, so a bunch of my notes from last night are out of date already, but I'll reformat them soon. This post from Robz pings me as the sort of thing I scumread him for in other games because language like "haven't we actually decided that..." seems to be telling other people how to think in a way that just takes it as given that people will agree with him without him actually having to back it up.

The other thing that's interesting to me is that he's doubled down on his mcmc vote, whereas I opened the post I was writing last night (the one that's sitting in another tab, that  I need to update and post at some point) with the acknowledgement that my mcmc vote was clearly RVS and needed to be updated, and my whole post was just looking at what appeared to be justifiable wagons and at the people driving most of the conversation in-thread at that point.

PPE 2 or 3?

The quoted post doesn't actually matter, it's not part of an argument as far as I can tell.

What a strange observation to make. What caused you decide that's a useful thing to post right now, given that you ended your post with a suggestion that you have more useful things to say but no will to say them?

Robz's post mattered to Robz enough to make it, and he's very clearly trying to steer people away from voting for mathdude.

My post mattered because I used it to say that I scumread that sort of manipulation, and I felt it was relevant to point it out there, even if only for future reference in terms of mathdude-Robz interaction for the later game.

[SpaceAnemone]

I guess I should also also clarify that I'm not really scumreading mathdude right now, though I'm happy to be suspicious of people going too far out of their way to try to divert his wagon, and to keep an eye on his interactions accordingly.

I think it's polite to give newbies a daypass, unless they do something outright scummy, because we're a community of players and it can be really tough for the first game or two, so letting them accrue experience that bit faster is probably helpful. Plus, mathdude seems to be willing enough to post his thinking out loud and engage it conversation, and I think a newbie scum trying for a high level of engagement will be at least as catchable later on as now.

[Dylan32]

I guess I should also also clarify that I'm not really scumreading mathdude right now, though I'm happy to be suspicious of people going too far out of their way to try to divert his wagon, and to keep an eye on his interactions accordingly.
--snip--

Yeah, a whole lot of people have jumped in to defend mathdude before we even got a chance to see him respond to the wagon himself. I mean, I get that the one post isn't a sure thing like a true scumslip or anything and he could still be town, but it was a scummier post than a lot of other things that have garnered votes to this point, so I feel like town should have been a little slower to defend it this early in the wagon. It's middle of D1 and this was only the 2nd wagon to even hit 3 people (using the official VCs as reference; Joth's hit 3, MiX moved, then Ash joined to put it back on 3 before moving to mathdude).

[Robz888]

Here's the long set of reasoning I was working on last night, updated for the current game-state:

Robz is contributing more than his bored D1 self often does (he's second on the number-of-posts leader-board, up from third last night), and I'm not sure how to interpret that. Him coming after me now is actually kind of welcome, though, because he's at least giving me something to engage with on my own terms, and everyone knows I have a hard time in D1 when there isn't actually anything to analyse yet (for those of us who're not great with tone or emotion, at least!).

Topping the number-of-posts count is joth, though he's only third on word-count, because his stuff tends to be one-liners. I'm against voting for anyone generating that much interaction if none of it is coming out particularly scummy, though.

Second place on the the number-of-words count is Dylan, even though he's way down the list on the number-of-posts, because I'm the only one who beats Dylan in words-per-post usually :-P I feel like I'm broadly in agreement with most of their posts, and there's actual scum-hunting sort of content, so all good there. It's also nice to see mathdude also creeping up there in terms of being someone who makes wordy posts.

MiX tops the word count and is second-place in number of posts, and is pretty classic overconfident and slightly demanding MiX. Though the newbie-helping is good; I'd have been trying to be helpful there except MiX generally got in before me with things like the new community standards of not using "lynch" language, and in making sure the civility pledge was signed and stuff :-)

Word-sparse players are gkrieg, faust and EFHW, which is not too unsurprising. Ash sounds really agreeable and not at all scummy, which for me is a big departure from the norm. But voting someone because I feel they're being uncharacteristic in making me agree with them would be very backwards, so let's not go there.

Who does that leave? Mcmc and Didds are very middle-of-the-road in terms of numbers of posts and numbers of words. I recall rea-reading Didds and thinking that she's not really being any more fluffy that usual, and has some opinions in there. Mcmc started out quite low-content (except where the man-bun is involved!) for about the first half of his posts to date, but then they got actually quite content-full.

In fact, mcmc really does seem to double down on his case against Joth, even though he acknowledged that Joth is posting a lot. I think that's a weird thing to push a D1 wagon on. And meanwhile he's also throwing shade at Ash on the side for the revoked daypass. So yeah, my big post of exploring where to move my vote to has apparently concluded that I'm okay leaving it on mcmc.

I actually mostly agree with this post, so Unvote

[jotheonah]

I guess I should also also clarify that I'm not really scumreading mathdude right now, though I'm happy to be suspicious of people going too far out of their way to try to divert his wagon, and to keep an eye on his interactions accordingly.
--snip--

Yeah, a whole lot of people have jumped in to defend mathdude before we even got a chance to see him respond to the wagon himself. I mean, I get that the one post isn't a sure thing like a true scumslip or anything and he could still be town, but it was a scummier post than a lot of other things that have garnered votes to this point, so I feel like town should have been a little slower to defend it this early in the wagon. It's middle of D1 and this was only the 2nd wagon to even hit 3 people (using the official VCs as reference; Joth's hit 3, MiX moved, then Ash joined to put it back on 3 before moving to mathdude).

I think it's sort of disingenuous to imply that anyone who has chosen not to vote for mathdude, and explained that choice, is defending him.

[ashersky]

I wanted to share that the specific part of mathdude's post that triggered my suspicion was what read to me as their assumption they would be alive on Day 2 to partake in activities.

You know who knows they will definitely not die at night?

[ashersky]

Ok, Robz has basically done nothing so far but townread people and ask naive questions and it's starting to feel off to me. I usually expect a little more robust mafia playing from one of the founding members of this playgroup. Maybe he's doing something different or just rusty from the time off, but I think he's trying to lay low and skate through day 1 and not making any particular effort to scumhunt.

Vote: Robz

I don't hate the mathdude wagon but it just seems too easy and I don't trust it.

This post is doing exactly what you accuse Robz of doing in this post.  That is, less-than-robust mafia playing from one of the founding members of this playgroup.

[ashersky]

Ok, Robz has basically done nothing so far but townread people and ask naive questions and it's starting to feel off to me. I usually expect a little more robust mafia playing from one of the founding members of this playgroup. Maybe he's doing something different or just rusty from the time off, but I think he's trying to lay low and skate through day 1 and not making any particular effort to scumhunt.

Vote: Robz

I don't hate the mathdude wagon but it just seems too easy and I don't trust it.

Wait. Have you even played with Robz before? Since when does he do things D1?

What do you think of mathdude?

This is even more inexplicable.  Asking if joth is familiar with/has played mafia with Robz is like asking if Gollum is familiar with that one ring.

MiX has been around long enough to know better.  Not sure what it means, though.