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Author Topic: M134: Conference Call Mafia V 2.0 - Game Over - Skum Wins!  (Read 115154 times)

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MiX

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Re: M134: Conference Call Mafia V 2.0 - Day 1 HAS BEGUN! AGAIN!
« Reply #150 on: February 22, 2021, 04:00:23 pm »

For the record, posting too much and thereby heaping suspicion on myself and skating way too close to being the day 1 exile is pretty standard meta for me regardless of my role and alignment. I would argue that if anything scum!joth is a more careful poster. He would never have posted

Why is it that about 20 people in this game have made totally unexplained votes and been completely ignored but I'm getting the third degree for voting for someone who made a really bad case and explaining that I'm voting for him because he made a really bad case?

because, as Dylan said, it reads as a scummy overreaction to a small amount of scrutiny. But town!Joth just sort of clicked post because he was feeling ticked off because he hadn't had his coffee yet and didn't even consider how it might come across.

Nah I think that's simply a joth!joth post, you'd think of that at least 5 times before posting it as either alignment. This, however, is a town!joth post.

May I interest you in an EFHW wagon? She tried to deflect my vote very aggressively, this might be (yet another) scum!EFHW game!
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WestCoastDidds

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Re: M134: Conference Call Mafia V 2.0 - Day 1 HAS BEGUN! AGAIN!
« Reply #151 on: February 22, 2021, 04:18:19 pm »

I am in a day of non-stop meetings. So, this is some high overview stuff instead of post-specific replies.

I am giving some squinty side-eye to MiX and Dylan talking about responses that have emotional components in them as a bad thing. The wordsy people use emotion not as a crutch, but as a part of the way we think. Joth's frustration at having his case scrutinized feels way more authentic and compelling to me than if he hadn't frustration, and I don't think that it has an emaotional component is a reason to discount it.

I freaking love Ashersky's description of putting in the work as oversalting. And Joth is right, Ash's reads of individuals and their typical playstyle is enviable.

When I initially voted for EFHW, it was RVS-lite because she was laying low, but in the time since then (page 5 for me) she has leaned into the scumminess, largely in response to MiX.

I am also seeing way less of faust than I'd have expected at this point in the game.
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Dylan32

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Re: M134: Conference Call Mafia V 2.0 - Day 1 HAS BEGUN! AGAIN!
« Reply #152 on: February 22, 2021, 04:28:05 pm »

For the record, posting too much and thereby heaping suspicion on myself and skating way too close to being the day 1 exile is pretty standard meta for me regardless of my role and alignment. I would argue that if anything scum!joth is a more careful poster. He would never have posted

Why is it that about 20 people in this game have made totally unexplained votes and been completely ignored but I'm getting the third degree for voting for someone who made a really bad case and explaining that I'm voting for him because he made a really bad case?

because, as Dylan said, it reads as a scummy overreaction to a small amount of scrutiny. But town!Joth just sort of clicked post because he was feeling ticked off because he hadn't had his coffee yet and didn't even consider how it might come across.

Nah I think that's simply a joth!joth post, you'd think of that at least 5 times before posting it as either alignment. This, however, is a town!joth post.

May I interest you in an EFHW wagon? She tried to deflect my vote very aggressively, this might be (yet another) scum!EFHW game!

I feel like you're interpreting their post way more aggressively than it sounds to me. I mean, I'm not opposed to building an EFHW wagon, but you haven't given me enough reason to start one yet.

Re: Didds - I didn't say using emotion in this game is a problem. I've had my share of emotional moments and frustration that has bled into my posts before, so I wasn't saying emotion=scummy. The degree of emotion after literally two posts that read to me more like asking questions rather than strong pushback struck me as possibly insincere emotion. His most recent posts have sounded a bit more towny to me though, so I'm willing to accept it was probably genuine.
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mathdude

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Re: M134: Conference Call Mafia V 2.0 - Day 1 HAS BEGUN! AGAIN!
« Reply #153 on: February 22, 2021, 04:31:40 pm »

For the record, posting too much and thereby heaping suspicion on myself and skating way too close to being the day 1 exile is pretty standard meta for me regardless of my role and alignment. I would argue that if anything scum!joth is a more careful poster. He would never have posted

Why is it that about 20 people in this game have made totally unexplained votes and been completely ignored but I'm getting the third degree for voting for someone who made a really bad case and explaining that I'm voting for him because he made a really bad case?

because, as Dylan said, it reads as a scummy overreaction to a small amount of scrutiny. But town!Joth just sort of clicked post because he was feeling ticked off because he hadn't had his coffee yet and didn't even consider how it might come across.

"This is what I would do if I was mafia. This is why I'm town because I'm doing this".
In my experience, this is a very scum move, especially this early, without much bandwagon on you. Now, maybe this is typical joth, as MiX and Didds seem to read him as town. But I'm suspicious. It's a very WIFOM thing and could go either way.
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Dylan32

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Re: M134: Conference Call Mafia V 2.0 - Day 1 HAS BEGUN! AGAIN!
« Reply #154 on: February 22, 2021, 04:35:47 pm »

Random thought: the fact that we have both extreme ends of the spectrum here will be interesting throughout the game. Ash: near encyclopedic meta knowledge - mathdude: doesn't know a single player's meta.
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Re: M134: Conference Call Mafia V 2.0 - Day 1 HAS BEGUN! AGAIN!
« Reply #155 on: February 22, 2021, 04:42:07 pm »

re: EFHW: I don't see it. Wish I did, but I don't, and I just reread all her posts.

Unvote

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EFHW

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Re: M134: Conference Call Mafia V 2.0 - Day 1 HAS BEGUN! AGAIN!
« Reply #156 on: February 22, 2021, 06:07:03 pm »

For the record, posting too much and thereby heaping suspicion on myself and skating way too close to being the day 1 exile is pretty standard meta for me regardless of my role and alignment. I would argue that if anything scum!joth is a more careful poster. He would never have posted

Why is it that about 20 people in this game have made totally unexplained votes and been completely ignored but I'm getting the third degree for voting for someone who made a really bad case and explaining that I'm voting for him because he made a really bad case?

because, as Dylan said, it reads as a scummy overreaction to a small amount of scrutiny. But town!Joth just sort of clicked post because he was feeling ticked off because he hadn't had his coffee yet and didn't even consider how it might come across.

Nah I think that's simply a joth!joth post, you'd think of that at least 5 times before posting it as either alignment. This, however, is a town!joth post.

May I interest you in an EFHW wagon? She tried to deflect my vote very aggressively, this might be (yet another) scum!EFHW game!

Aggressively?
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Re: M134: Conference Call Mafia V 2.0 - Day 1 HAS BEGUN! AGAIN!
« Reply #157 on: February 22, 2021, 06:15:14 pm »

vote: Space. Totally lurking.

I also appreciated ashersky's oversalting metaphor. Not giving a day pass, but willing to move on. It was a nothing case, anyway.
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MiX

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Re: M134: Conference Call Mafia V 2.0 - Day 1 HAS BEGUN! AGAIN!
« Reply #158 on: February 22, 2021, 06:16:49 pm »

For the record, posting too much and thereby heaping suspicion on myself and skating way too close to being the day 1 exile is pretty standard meta for me regardless of my role and alignment. I would argue that if anything scum!joth is a more careful poster. He would never have posted

Why is it that about 20 people in this game have made totally unexplained votes and been completely ignored but I'm getting the third degree for voting for someone who made a really bad case and explaining that I'm voting for him because he made a really bad case?

because, as Dylan said, it reads as a scummy overreaction to a small amount of scrutiny. But town!Joth just sort of clicked post because he was feeling ticked off because he hadn't had his coffee yet and didn't even consider how it might come across.

Nah I think that's simply a joth!joth post, you'd think of that at least 5 times before posting it as either alignment. This, however, is a town!joth post.

May I interest you in an EFHW wagon? She tried to deflect my vote very aggressively, this might be (yet another) scum!EFHW game!

Aggressively?

Well it was clearly a poor choice of words, but they were the ones that popped into my mind, so I thought they would reflect what I was thinking when posting accurately. The post in question is this one:

Vote: EFHW, although I disagree that EFHW is scum, I had the exact same thought about her. I don't think it applies to EFHW though, but it might, so we can follow through this.

So this is the same as an RVS vote? Go ahead, though, I like attention.

This is a great way of making me double down, which in turn makes me want to eventually move away from it. It's a very direct approach to my vote in a way that says that you do not want it to be here for long.

You can also read it almost as if it's mocking my vote, baiting me into either accepting that it was a RVS and move away, or stubbornly defend it to the point where it would lose all reasoning. "I like attention." is almost an invitation for people to look at EFHW and her wagon (and my vote), and come back with the conclusion that it is a bad wagon, because at the time it truly was a bad wagon.

vote: Space. Totally lurking.

I also appreciated ashersky's oversalting metaphor. Not giving a day pass, but willing to move on. It was a nothing case, anyway.

Which case was a nothing case? Ash's? Joth's?
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EFHW

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Re: M134: Conference Call Mafia V 2.0 - Day 1 HAS BEGUN! AGAIN!
« Reply #159 on: February 22, 2021, 06:24:18 pm »

Wow. I am incapable of being that crafty.

The nothing case was my vote on ash.
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MiX

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Re: M134: Conference Call Mafia V 2.0 - Day 1 HAS BEGUN! AGAIN!
« Reply #160 on: February 22, 2021, 06:31:17 pm »

Wow. I am incapable of being that crafty.

The nothing case was my vote on ash.

I don't think so. You might never have done it and never will, but you are not incapable of doing such a thing.
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SpaceAnemone

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Re: M134: Conference Call Mafia V 2.0 - Day 1 HAS BEGUN! AGAIN!
« Reply #161 on: February 22, 2021, 07:57:39 pm »

vote: Space. Totally lurking.

I also appreciated ashersky's oversalting metaphor. Not giving a day pass, but willing to move on. It was a nothing case, anyway.

Yeah, sorry! Started a re-read of everyone earlier, but didn't finish it before the evening's social calls, and now it's past bedtime. Still have notes in another tab, but it will have to wait till tomorrow at this point. My sanity is on a lot thinner ground than it was in the beforetimes, so bedtime needs to be that bit more strict :-(
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mcmcsalot

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Re: M134: Conference Call Mafia V 2.0 - Day 1 HAS BEGUN! AGAIN!
« Reply #162 on: February 22, 2021, 08:11:53 pm »

I don't think Joth has really done anything scummy.

Do you think he is just doing joth things or do you think the things hes done are towny?
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Robz888

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Re: M134: Conference Call Mafia V 2.0 - Day 1 HAS BEGUN! AGAIN!
« Reply #163 on: February 22, 2021, 08:34:32 pm »

I don't think Joth has really done anything scummy.

Do you think he is just doing joth things or do you think the things hes done are towny?

I think he's just doing Joth things, including analyzing his own meta fairly obsessively, which seems to be a town Joth thing, if memory serves.
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Robz888

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Re: M134: Conference Call Mafia V 2.0 - Day 1 HAS BEGUN! AGAIN!
« Reply #164 on: February 22, 2021, 08:34:55 pm »

Though admittedly, speaking of metas, mine is to butter up Joth when I am scum!
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ashersky

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Re: M134: Conference Call Mafia V 2.0 - Day 1 HAS BEGUN! AGAIN!
« Reply #165 on: February 22, 2021, 09:35:15 pm »

For the record, posting too much and thereby heaping suspicion on myself and skating way too close to being the day 1 exile is pretty standard meta for me regardless of my role and alignment. I would argue that if anything scum!joth is a more careful poster. He would never have posted

Why is it that about 20 people in this game have made totally unexplained votes and been completely ignored but I'm getting the third degree for voting for someone who made a really bad case and explaining that I'm voting for him because he made a really bad case?

because, as Dylan said, it reads as a scummy overreaction to a small amount of scrutiny. But town!Joth just sort of clicked post because he was feeling ticked off because he hadn't had his coffee yet and didn't even consider how it might come across.

Nah I think that's simply a joth!joth post, you'd think of that at least 5 times before posting it as either alignment. This, however, is a town!joth post.

May I interest you in an EFHW wagon? She tried to deflect my vote very aggressively, this might be (yet another) scum!EFHW game!

The bold is correct, and exactly what I thought when I read it.  I would provide reasoning, which MiX did not, and that is that town!joth often likes to use the "mafia!joth would/would not do X" argument when he defends himself.  Do many other players?  Sure.  But for me it's still a town-ish characteristics for joth.

Honestly, the exasperated tone of the original joth post about how no one was getting scrutiny for votes is a complete null post for joth's alignment.  I saw some reading it as non-towny, but I am firmly convinced that town!joth hates being mis-exiled for any reason and mafia!joth hates being exiled for the wrong reason, and in both cases, his posts read with that same frustration, which rises as the L count goes down.

All that to say, I could be easily convinced to move my vote.
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Re: M134: Conference Call Mafia V 2.0 - Day 1 HAS BEGUN! AGAIN!
« Reply #166 on: February 22, 2021, 09:36:08 pm »

I don't think Joth has really done anything scummy.

Do you think he is just doing joth things or do you think the things hes done are towny?

I think he's just doing Joth things, including analyzing his own meta fairly obsessively, which seems to be a town Joth thing, if memory serves.

I think it's just a joth thing that he cannot avoid.  There may be a difference in how he approaches it depending on alignment, though. 
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Re: M134: Conference Call Mafia V 2.0 - Day 1 HAS BEGUN! AGAIN!
« Reply #167 on: February 22, 2021, 09:37:45 pm »

So, in sum, joth seems to be oversalting, plus misrepresentating my case in his own omgus (that’s the term I wanted before) case against me.

To be clear, in his posts since I said this, he's said other things that have reduced these feelings.
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Re: M134: Conference Call Mafia V 2.0 - Day 1 HAS BEGUN! AGAIN!
« Reply #168 on: February 22, 2021, 09:39:37 pm »

For the record, posting too much and thereby heaping suspicion on myself and skating way too close to being the day 1 exile is pretty standard meta for me regardless of my role and alignment. I would argue that if anything scum!joth is a more careful poster. He would never have posted

Why is it that about 20 people in this game have made totally unexplained votes and been completely ignored but I'm getting the third degree for voting for someone who made a really bad case and explaining that I'm voting for him because he made a really bad case?

because, as Dylan said, it reads as a scummy overreaction to a small amount of scrutiny. But town!Joth just sort of clicked post because he was feeling ticked off because he hadn't had his coffee yet and didn't even consider how it might come across.

"This is what I would do if I was mafia. This is why I'm town because I'm doing this".
In my experience, this is a very scum move, especially this early, without much bandwagon on you. Now, maybe this is typical joth, as MiX and Didds seem to read him as town. But I'm suspicious. It's a very WIFOM thing and could go either way.

I like mathdude's contributions so far.  This is a good post, where a new player is sharing their previous experience and what it may mean, admits their lack of context and knowledge, and makes a clear statement of opinion that can be referenced later when we have more information.

Day pass achieved.
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Re: M134: Conference Call Mafia V 2.0 - Day 1 HAS BEGUN! AGAIN!
« Reply #169 on: February 22, 2021, 09:41:05 pm »

Wow. I am incapable of being that crafty.

Absolutely wrong.  You are very good as misdirection in mafia games.

Not that I see any merit whatsoever in MiX's explanation.  But still, you can be crafty when you want/need.
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Re: M134: Conference Call Mafia V 2.0 - Day 1 HAS BEGUN! AGAIN!
« Reply #170 on: February 22, 2021, 09:41:52 pm »

I don't think Joth has really done anything scummy.

Do you think he is just doing joth things or do you think the things hes done are towny?

Do you?
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Re: M134: Conference Call Mafia V 2.0 - Day 1 HAS BEGUN! AGAIN!
« Reply #171 on: February 22, 2021, 11:29:41 pm »

Vote Count 1.3:

Joth (3): MCMC, faust, Ashersky
MCMC (2): SpaceAnenome, Robz888
EFHW (2): WestCoastDidds, MiX
Ashersky (1): gkrieg
mathdude (1): Dylan32
Dylan32 (1): mathdude
SpaceAnenome (1): EFHW
Not Voting (1): Joth


With 12 alive, it takes 7 to Exile.
Day 1 ends February 26th at 10:40pm Forum Time.
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Jesus how did i fuck that up
real good. That’s how
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Re: M134: Conference Call Mafia V 2.0 - Day 1 HAS BEGUN! AGAIN!
« Reply #172 on: February 23, 2021, 01:26:09 am »

Vote: mcmc

Is that enough convincing for you, ash?
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Re: M134: Conference Call Mafia V 2.0 - Day 1 HAS BEGUN! AGAIN!
« Reply #173 on: February 23, 2021, 01:32:37 am »

I am giving some squinty side-eye to MiX and Dylan talking about responses that have emotional components in them as a bad thing. The wordsy people use emotion not as a crutch, but as a part of the way we think. Joth's frustration at having his case scrutinized feels way more authentic and compelling to me than if he hadn't frustration, and I don't think that it has an emaotional component is a reason to discount it.
Emotions aren't bad, but it isn't great when people use them to avoid asking questions. Emotional posts are more easily fabricated than actual reasons for the things you're doing.

I am also seeing way less of faust than I'd have expected at this point in the game.
I know right? Though I would argue that the reason is more that the general activity is at a higher level than me being particularly absent.
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Re: M134: Conference Call Mafia V 2.0 - Day 1 HAS BEGUN! AGAIN!
« Reply #174 on: February 23, 2021, 02:52:48 am »

Well, some people are active enough that I could find "reasons" I think pretty much any of them could be scum or reasons any of them could be town.  However, there is definitely TONS of useful interactions that have been happening, so that bodes well for tomorrow.  Town, we have to carefully use any PR's to make sure the results can be useful not only individually, but also in how the results may interact with those interactions... if that makes any sense.  (Getting a read on someone is helpful... but getting a read on someone that you're fairly certain is connected to another someone can be even more useful).

But now I'm torn between 2 options.  Do we try to vote someone out who we have mild suspicions of, who we can actually connect their reveal-on-exile to the statements made by others about them on day-1?  Or do we just go for the less active lurkers, to make sure they don't just hide through a couple days?

Yeah, sorry! Started a re-read of everyone earlier, but didn't finish it before the evening's social calls, and now it's past bedtime. Still have notes in another tab, but it will have to wait till tomorrow at this point. My sanity is on a lot thinner ground than it was in the beforetimes, so bedtime needs to be that bit more strict :-(

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