Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[silverspawn]

24 Hour Warning

[emtzalex]

My internet broke for 2 days which was very annoying but all submissions in the meantime are ok.

Here is the updated version of my submission, and the bottom half of the 5/5 split pile that goes with it. If permissible, I would like just Birthright to be my submission:

I'm not sure I understnad the request. Are you saying you want me to treat this as if it were a 10-card pile of just Birthright? If so, of course that's permissible; I mean, you could have just not posted the fact that it's a split pile. Or do you mean something else?

No, sorry I was not more clear. The explanation is long, and I don't want to make you read it, so the TL;DR is that I am keeping the split pile, and it is up to you to decide if you want to include Legacy in the judging. But please let me know if you consider it disqualifying so I can change it.


The contest had a very specific objective, and the card I came up with is Birthright. But I think the optimal number of Birthrights available to a player is more than 1 and fewer than 10, and the only way I can think to do that is with a split pile. A split pile requires a second card, so I made one. But that card exists only to make Birthright better. I think Legacy is a marginal case (at best) for fitting the criteria of requiring a high skill level to play optimally. It certainly is not one of the best examples of it. But I do think it is a good fit on the split pile with Birthright, and the fact that they are on the same pile doesn't change the fact that (I think) Birthright does fit the criteria quite well.

Many card-shaped objects in Dominion are functionally connected to a specific card - they gain it (Reap), they trash it (Moneylender), they junk it (Witch), they count it (Fortune), they change it (Inheritance), etc. One of the ways cards are connected is when they share a split pile. Some of the cards that have been submitted have a specific relationship with Curse. Obviously Curse does not fit the criteria, so because you don't play it at all. But you wouldn't expect that judging to be applied to Curse.

Similarly, someone might have submitted something that required creating a card or other card-shaped objected (like an Artifact), that didn't get played (like an Artifact that gives +1 Buy at the start of each turn) or was relatively simple to play (like Donkey, below, a variant of Horse). Donkey might make the card being submitted better, and the fact that Donkey is fairly simple to play does not change the fact that the card that uses it might require a high skill level to play, and the simplicity of Donkey is not what would be judged (I would think).

My point/request is that in judging my submission, Legacy should only be considered to the extent that it's being on a split pile with Birthright makes Birthright a better or worse card overall. But I understand that this is not exactly the same as those other scenarios, so obviously this will be up to you.

NOT A SUBMISSION

[emtzalex]

Going to change my entry to this instead:

Armada (Project, $5)

At the start of each of your turns, choose one: put a card from your hand onto your Armada mat, or if you haven’t already done so this game, put all cards on your Armada mat into your hand.

This allows you to build up for one really big turn, but how far are you prepared to push your luck? Maybe someone else will get theirs in first...

What happens after your big turn? Are you required to put a card from your hand onto the mat? Can you choose the second option and have it fail? If it keeps working, players could use it to stash victory cards (or Coppers if they still have them) so they wouldn't be dead weight in their deck.

[mandioca15]

Going to change my entry to this instead:

Armada (Project, $5)

At the start of each of your turns, choose one: put a card from your hand onto your Armada mat, or if you haven’t already done so this game, put all cards on your Armada mat into your hand.

This allows you to build up for one really big turn, but how far are you prepared to push your luck? Maybe someone else will get theirs in first...

What happens after your big turn? Are you required to put a card from your hand onto the mat? Can you choose the second option and have it fail? If it keeps working, players could use it to stash victory cards (or Coppers if they still have them) so they wouldn't be dead weight in their deck.

Yes, after your big turn, you still have to keep putting cards onto your Armada mat. Players can, of course, put their Victory cards and lesser Treasures (Coppers) on the mat if they want without ever putting them into their hand - but will that work if other players are building up to a big turn? It gives you a bit of flexibility in terms of how you want to use it...

[silverspawn]

The contest had a very specific objective, and the card I came up with is Birthright. But I think the optimal number of Birthrights available to a player is more than 1 and fewer than 10, and the only way I can think to do that is with a split pile. A split pile requires a second card, so I made one. But that card exists only to make Birthright better. I think Legacy is a marginal case (at best) for fitting the criteria of requiring a high skill level to play optimally.

Yeah, that's totally fine. The [Birthright + X splitpile] still qualifies, and my philosophy in general is to only use the theme as en entry barrier. As in, among the cards that qualify, I don't give extra points for being super on theme, but just judge based on how much I like the card.

[emtzalex]

The contest had a very specific objective, and the card I came up with is Birthright. But I think the optimal number of Birthrights available to a player is more than 1 and fewer than 10, and the only way I can think to do that is with a split pile. A split pile requires a second card, so I made one. But that card exists only to make Birthright better. I think Legacy is a marginal case (at best) for fitting the criteria of requiring a high skill level to play optimally.

Yeah, that's totally fine. The [Birthright + X splitpile] still qualifies, and my philosophy in general is to only use the theme as en entry barrier. As in, among the cards that qualify, I don't give extra points for being super on theme, but just judge based on how much I like the card.

Awesome, thanks.

[anordinaryman]

Submission: THERE IS NOW A Slightly modified phrasing two posts below this

Cavalcade | Project | $4
For the rest of the game, when you would play an Action card, trash it and play it twice from the Trash, leaving it there.

Preserving above for historical purposes. The most up to date version of the card follows:

Cavalcade | Project | $4
When you finish playing an Action Card, trash it. If you did, play it again from the Trash, leaving it there.

Maybe not phrased amazingly. Basically adds a Procession that doesn't upgrade in front of every Action. It was the best way I could think to phrase it to make sure the second play doesn't get a second play. Might need a FAQ to clarify. Buying it at the right time is a high-skill ceiling decision, as is understanding when it can be useful.

[faust]

Submission:

Cavalcade | Project | $4
For the rest of the game, when you would play an Action card, trash it and play it twice from the Trash, leaving it there.

Maybe not phrased amazingly. Basically adds a Procession that doesn't upgrade in front of every Action. It was the best way I could think to phrase it to make sure the second play doesn't get a second play. Might need a FAQ to clarify. Buying it at the right time is a high-skill ceiling decision, as is understanding when it can be useful.

As phrased currently:

- you would play an Action card: Cavalcade applies
   - you trash the card and are instructed to play it twice from the trash
      - i.e. you would play an Action card; Cavalcade applies
         - you trash the same card and are instructed to play it twice from the trash
            - etc.

i.e. playing any card with Cavalcade creates an infinite, unstoppable loop. It needs some extra restriction so it doesn't apply to itself; one option would be "when you play an Action card from your hand", though that is awkward with like Herald. another is to add an "if you did".

Other things which are unclear to me:
- Do you actually play the card three times, once from its regular playing and twice from Cavalcade? If not, it probably needs an "instead".
- What happens with Command cards? They play stuff from the supply with the instruction "leaving it there" - but leaving it there only applies to being moved by the action of playing. If I play a Workshop with Overlord, I can still gain that same Workshop with it, as "leaving it there" does not extend to other effects. This would imply that Cavalcade causes Commanded Actions to be trashed from the supply, right?
- I assume that "from the trash" is meant to prevent an infinite loop with Fortress, i.e. the playing fails if the card is not in the trash anymore. This might create some issues as the trash is an unordered pile. So if I play a Graverobber to gain that same Graverobber from the trash, the second playing of Graverobber should fail - but there is no way of telling whether the Graverobber I gained is the same one that I trashed (you could argue that this point is more academical - but it's still weird that sometimes, the first playing will succeed while the second does not).

[anordinaryman]

Excellent points, Faust. I am unsure how to succinctly resolve all the ambiguities. I think this helps a little bit:
Updated phrasing/submission

Cavalcade | Project | $4
For the rest of the game, when you finish playing an Action Card, trash it. If you did, play it again from the Trash, leaving it there.

Edit: I had to make numerous corrections. Thank you Faust once again for helping me understand my own card

• Should make it more clear it does not infinitely loop, (a card that is already in the trash cannot successfully be trashed) and you get exactly two plays of the card. (The "if you did" doesn't apply for a third play)
• From my understanding, Band of Misfits would play a Bridge from the supply, leaving it there. Then you have finished playing the Action Bridge, so Bridge gets trashed from the Calvacade and then you play the Bridge again from the trash, leaving it there Cavalcade trashes card "after you play them" and so expects the card to be in-play. So, it fails to trash Bridge. Then, Band of Misfits is done playing so it gets trashed and you play it again, now with all the cards costing 2 1 less. In the case of BoM, it may be argued that both BoM and Bridge are finished playing at the same time, so you could theoretically choose which order to Calvacade them. You don't get to choose the order with Golem, which has to wait for the both cards to be played before it is finished playing.
• Grave Robber -- first play gain a card from the trash, then it is finished playing so you trash it. Then you play it from the trash and choose to gain itself from the Trash. I think this is consistent. "Leaving it there" isn't a permanent state -- you are allowed to later buy cards from the Supply that you "left there." It just describes what Cavalcade expects but cards can move themselves sometimes to unexpected places.
• Just to point out, Horses basically become triple lab-horses with Cavalcade. This is thematic with the name of the Project. You could load up on a bunch of terminals and a bunch of horses. Then, your horses will provide you all the draw and actions you need to play the other cards. Actually, this doesn't work. The horse gets returned to the Supply, so Cavalcade fails to trash it and play it again.

[faust]

Excellent points, Faust. I am unsure how to succinctly resolve all the ambiguities. I think this helps a little bit:
Updated phrasing/submission

Cavalcade | Project | $4
For the rest of the game, when you finish playing an Action Card, trash it. If you did, play it again from the Trash, leaving it there.

I think this is better. Minor point: You don't need "for the rest of the game", Projects are always implicitly for the rest of the game.

• Should make it more clear it does not infinitely loop, (a card that is already in the trash cannot successfully be trashed) and you get exactly two plays of the card. (The "if you did" doesn't apply for a third play)
• From my understanding, Band of Misfits would play a Bridge from the supply, leaving it there. Then you have finished playing the Action Bridge, so Bridge gets trashed from the Calvacade and then you play the Bridge again from the trash, leaving it there. Then Band of Misfits is done playing so it gets trashed and you play it again, now with all the cards costing 2 less. In the case of BoM, it may be argued that both BoM and Bridge are finished playing at the same time, so you could theoretically choose which order to Calvacade them. You don't get to choose the order with Golem, which has to wait for the second card to be played before it is finished playing.
• Grave Robber -- first play gain a card from the trash, then it is finished playing so you trash it. Then you play it from the trash and choose to gain itself from the Trash. I think this is consistent. "Leaving it there" isn't a permanent state -- you are allowed to later buy cards from the Supply that you "left there." It just describes what Cavalcade expects but cards can move themselves sometimes to unexpected places.
• Just to point out, Horses basically become triple lab-horses with Cavalcade. This is thematic with the name of the Project. You could load up on a bunch of terminals and a bunch of horses. Then, your horses will provide you all the draw and actions you need to play the other cards.

Regarding the BoM example -  I am not sure the Bridge would be trashed, as I think stop-moving applies here. Cavalcade expects played Actions to be in play and can only trash from there I believe.
I am not sure what you mean about the Horses. From what I understand, when you finish playing a Horse it is no longer in play, so it won't be trashed (see Procession) and you won't be able to play it again.

[spheremonk]

I am not sure what you mean about the Horses. From what I understand, when you finish playing a Horse it is no longer in play, so it won't be trashed (see Procession) and you won't be able to play it again.

That's not quite right. When you play a Horse with Procession, it won't be trashed (it can no longer be moved after being returned), but it WILL be played again.

[faust]

I am not sure what you mean about the Horses. From what I understand, when you finish playing a Horse it is no longer in play, so it won't be trashed (see Procession) and you won't be able to play it again.

That's not quite right. When you play a Horse with Procession, it won't be trashed (it can no longer be moved after being returned), but it WILL be played again.

But the not getting trashed is exactly what I wanted to point out. The "play it again" here refers to Cavalcade, not Procession.

[Holger]

I think I would give it a non-zero price to make it a slightly less automatic buy. On most boards, Omniscience itself makes it easy to get rid of the Curses it gives you by lining them up with a trasher, so gaining 2 Curses is not nearly as harsh as it would be on another card.

Not sure I follow; if you play first and automatically buy this in 2 player, taking 2 Curses, while your opponent takes it as soon as convenient for 0 Curses, you're relying heavily on your first player advantage surpassing a concrete disadvantage in a game with zero RNG. I wouldn't expect this to be a winning strategy.

It's hard to predict the correct strategy for such a "game of Chicken" card. I think that e.g. in a Chapel game, you will often want to gain this on turn 2 regardless of the Curses, as it guarantees you a $5 hand and trashing two Estates along with the Curses on turn 3 and 4, while you could only trash one Estate on T3/4 on average without stacking your deck.

But I agree that with weaker (or no) trashers, it's not automatically clear when (or whether) you want to buy it first, as you effectively gain 2 curses just to have it a half-turn earlier than your opponent.

[Holger]

The problem is, that in a 4, 5, or 6 player game

Who plays Dominion with more than 3?

People who hate Dominion . . . or hate themselves.

I don't think Donald X. hates Dominion 
(He does playtest with up to five, though not with six IIRC.)

[anordinaryman]

Final Update

Cavalcade | Project | $4
When you finish playing an Action Card, trash it. If you did, play it again from the Trash, leaving it there.

Excellent points, Faust. I am unsure how to succinctly resolve all the ambiguities. I think this helps a little bit:
Updated phrasing/submission

Cavalcade | Project | $4
For the rest of the game, when you finish playing an Action Card, trash it. If you did, play it again from the Trash, leaving it there.

I think this is better. Minor point: You don't need "for the rest of the game", Projects are always implicitly for the rest of the game.

• Should make it more clear it does not infinitely loop, (a card that is already in the trash cannot successfully be trashed) and you get exactly two plays of the card. (The "if you did" doesn't apply for a third play)
• From my understanding, Band of Misfits would play a Bridge from the supply, leaving it there. Then you have finished playing the Action Bridge, so Bridge gets trashed from the Calvacade and then you play the Bridge again from the trash, leaving it there. Then Band of Misfits is done playing so it gets trashed and you play it again, now with all the cards costing 2 less. In the case of BoM, it may be argued that both BoM and Bridge are finished playing at the same time, so you could theoretically choose which order to Calvacade them. You don't get to choose the order with Golem, which has to wait for the second card to be played before it is finished playing.
• Grave Robber -- first play gain a card from the trash, then it is finished playing so you trash it. Then you play it from the trash and choose to gain itself from the Trash. I think this is consistent. "Leaving it there" isn't a permanent state -- you are allowed to later buy cards from the Supply that you "left there." It just describes what Cavalcade expects but cards can move themselves sometimes to unexpected places.
• Just to point out, Horses basically become triple lab-horses with Cavalcade. This is thematic with the name of the Project. You could load up on a bunch of terminals and a bunch of horses. Then, your horses will provide you all the draw and actions you need to play the other cards.

Regarding the BoM example -  I am not sure the Bridge would be trashed, as I think stop-moving applies here. Cavalcade expects played Actions to be in play and can only trash from there I believe.
I am not sure what you mean about the Horses. From what I understand, when you finish playing a Horse it is no longer in play, so it won't be trashed (see Procession) and you won't be able to play it again.

You know what, you're right! Cavalcade DOES fail to trash it. And on second thought, Cavalcade does fail to trash Horses as well because they have moved from in-play.

[Holger]

Excellent points, Faust. I am unsure how to succinctly resolve all the ambiguities. I think this helps a little bit:
Updated phrasing/submission

Cavalcade | Project | $4
For the rest of the game, when you finish playing an Action Card, trash it. If you did, play it again from the Trash, leaving it there.

This seems quite similar to Exhaust (v1) to me, as both allow you to replay and trash all your Actions on your last turn. Though Cavalcade is more demanding (and dangerous) as you have to buy it on your penultimate turn already...

[anordinaryman]

Excellent points, Faust. I am unsure how to succinctly resolve all the ambiguities. I think this helps a little bit:
Updated phrasing/submission

Cavalcade | Project | $4
For the rest of the game, when you finish playing an Action Card, trash it. If you did, play it again from the Trash, leaving it there.

This seems quite similar to Exhaust (v1) to me, as both allow you to replay and trash all your Actions on your last turn. Though Cavalcade is more demanding (and dangerous) as you have to buy it on your penultimate turn already...

Ah, I didn't get a chance to read through the thread that carefully yet. I even did my submission right by the deadline. Looking though, I think there is a huge difference. Exhaust v1 doesn't force you to do all of them, it's a lot easier to use, especially since you can trigger it so easily. Cavalcade is a lot higher-skill, you have to be certain that you will benefit from it next turn. And if you don't, you've ruined your deck, with little chance to recover. There are a few non-engine skill uses of Cavalcade that I think is kind of interesting and help illuminate differences with "Exhaust v1". For a Big Money+X Deck, buying Cavalcade on your last shuffle can help make sure each action gives you a Province. And in a "Good Stuff" deck where Wall is present, you're happy to sacrifice your Action cards in your last Shuffle as well. But in both those cases, "Exhaust v1" is far too easy, it's a no-brainer to trash the cards. With Cavalcade, you have to think a lot if it's worth spending a buy to accomplish those goals. And sometimes it isn't worth it.

Just to be clear, I think Exhaust v2 is a VERY interesting Event and really well-designed, and I'd be very happy if it won this contest. I maintain that it and Cavalcade operate pretty differently. Compare Cathedral and Bonfire.

[silverspawn]

Chance-to-tell-me-if-I've-missed-your-entry-post:

Toady -- Fragasnap

Appraiser-- Gubump

Capital City -- X-tra

Prophet/Messiah -- mathdude

Chamberlain -- spineflu

Revolution -- faust

Penglai Medicine -- majiponi

Monkey's Paw -- LibraryAdventurer

Ancient Ruins -- Aquila

Musketeer -- gambit05

Ravaged Throne Room -- fika monster

Exhaust -- alion8me

Birthright/Legacy -- emtzalex

Corrupt Village -- Rhodos

Omniscience -- Mahowrath

Jewelry -- Carline

Cavalcade-- anordinaryman

Coffeehouse -- Xen3k

Delegate -- D782802859

Celebrate -- pubby

Secluded Village -- Timinou

Old Throne Room -- Commodore Chuckles

Armada -- mandioca15 (Edit)

Billet -- ConMan (Edit #2)

Customs Shed -- infangthief (Edit #3) (I promise I'll do this more carefully next time)

[mandioca15]

Missing mine (Armada, reply #115).

[Gubump]

Missing ConMan's Billet (reply #65).

[segura]

Cavalcade could say something like this: „When you play an Action card, play it twice and then trash it“

I think that version would be more similar to Procession and also be clearer than the one in which the throning happens after the trashing.
The Horse issue does IMO illustrate why throning before trashing is more natural.

[infangthief]

Missing mine (Customs Shed - #124)

[anordinaryman]

Cavalcade could say something like this: „When you play an Action card, play it twice and then trash it“

I think that version would be more similar to Procession and also be clearer than the one in which the throning happens after the trashing.
The Horse issue does IMO illustrate why throning before trashing is more natural.

Yeah but the natural reading of "When you play an Action Card, play it twice" means you play each card an infinite number of times because it self-loops. So this phrasing absolutely doesn't work.

Perhaps a clearer phrasing is something akin to Experiment

Cavalcade | Project | $4
When you play an Action Card, play it again (this second play does not trigger Cavalcade) and then trash it.

However; for some reason I like the fact that the way it is currently stated prevents you from re-playing and trashing cards that have moved. There's tracking complexity with trashed-durations already, I don't want to introduce even more tracking complexity with cards that have moved that are played a second-time.

Probably the least ambiguous way to set this up would be to set aside a card, Mantle that says

Mantle | Action | $0*
Play a card from your hand twice, then trash it
(This is not in the Supply)

and then Cavalcade says

Cavalcade | Project | $4
During your Action phase, instead of playing cards from your hand, spend Actions (Actions, not Action Cards) to play Mantle.
Set up: Set aside Mantle

Which is really the spirit of the card. But I find the set-aside single-copy of card less elegant. Perhaps this is better because it's clearer and preserves play-then-trash order? I am unsure. In any case, it's too late to change submissions for the contest now, so I'm leaving it as submitted.

[GendoIkari]

v0.1:
v0.2:
v0.3:

Omniscience - $0
Project

Play with your hand and deck entirely face up and visible. You may reorder your deck at any time.
-
When you buy this, gain a Curse if not all players have Omniscience, and another Curse if no other player has Omniscience, then put your deck into your discard pile.

Donate-esque gamechanger, with a penalty for buying it before others. Your deck becomes like a second hand to pick and choose from.

Edits: put into discard pile rather than discard deck; face up and visible rather than revealed to avoid reveal trigger shenanigans. Gaining Curses before putting deck into discard pile for consistency. Re-weighting of Curses to 2 for the Alpha and 1 for each other non-Omega to maintain the 2 Curse cost.

The penalty is negated if you have Watchtower in hand. And probably not much of a penalty as long as there is some trashing available.

The ability to rearrange your entire deck at any time could slow the game down too much... that’s a huge number of decisions you have to make every time you shuffle, and at other times too. Also, “at any time” is bad in general... if you play a Knight can I quickly rearrange my deck at that moment before revealing my top 2 cards? What if you play a Smithy and I want to rearrange my deck after you draw 2 cards but before you draw the third? Not because it could matter but hey, it says I can. Maybe at the least restrict it to your own turn.

Finally, why put your deck into your discard when you buy it? You’re getting a benefit for the whole game, does the one-time minor benefit really matter much?

I wonder if the entire thing could be created simplified while keeping the same basic benefit by just allowing you to order your cards when shuffling.

*Edit* Also I’m unclear on what “face up and visible” means for your deck... are the entire deck contents visible, so that the cards have to be spread out? Or is only the top card of your deck visible, meaning that you basically play with your deck turned upside down from normal?

[Mahowrath]

The penalty is negated if you have Watchtower in hand. And probably not much of a penalty as long as there is some trashing available.

The true penalty of taking two curses is losing tempo against your opponent(s). Heavy trashing isn't necessarily the best way to go, as your deck has infinite consistency without being thin.
Watchtower still isn't a golden bullet for winning omniscience games; if your opponent sees you pick it up, they can pick up something with better synergy for the omniscience endgame.

The ability to rearrange your entire deck at any time could slow the game down too much... that’s a huge number of decisions you have to make every time you shuffle, and at other times too. Also, “at any time” is bad in general... if you play a Knight can I quickly rearrange my deck at that moment before revealing my top 2 cards? What if you play a Smithy and I want to rearrange my deck after you draw 2 cards but before you draw the third? Not because it could matter but hey, it says I can. Maybe at the least restrict it to your own turn.

The ability to rearrange your deck at any time means you just take what you need from it when you interact with it. Yes, Knight attacks can be made to look silly. The "shuffle" consists of laying your discard pile out and taking your desired starting cards. This shouldn't be that time consuming.

Finally, why put your deck into your discard when you buy it? You’re getting a benefit for the whole game, does the one-time minor benefit really matter much?

The one time discard benefit is to avoid having your omniscience endgame hampered by the dregs of your last shuffle, which would be annoying and unthematic.

I wonder if the entire thing could be created simplified while keeping the same basic benefit by just allowing you to order your cards when shuffling.

This idea actually would take forever, particularly if having to account for milling.

*Edit* Also I’m unclear on what “face up and visible” means for your deck... are the entire deck contents visible, so that the cards have to be spread out? Or is only the top card of your deck visible, meaning that you basically play with your deck turned upside down from normal?

Hand and Deck entirely face up and visible: effectively permanently revealed, but avoiding overloading the "revealed" keyword reserved for temporary reveals. Spread out, or in piles; any way that lets players inspect it.