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Author Topic: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling  (Read 22147 times)

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spineflu

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #100 on: February 10, 2021, 03:58:12 pm »
+3



In a two or three player game this is fine. The problem is, that in a 4, 5, or 6 player game, no one would want to buy this. In a six player, game, you have to take 10 Curses just to buy the Project, which is insane. I don't think it scales very well. But the idea of the project is really, really, cool.

a good candidate for a front/back project for 2-3 players on one side, 4-6 on the other, imo
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #101 on: February 10, 2021, 04:05:25 pm »
+2

The problem is, that in a 4, 5, or 6 player game
Who plays Dominion with more than 3?

I do, occasionally. I usually play with both of my parents, and every once in a while, we play with my brother, as well. 5 and 6 player games are just miserable, though.
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spheremonk

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #102 on: February 10, 2021, 04:15:51 pm »
0

The problem is, that in a 4, 5, or 6 player game
Who plays Dominion with more than 3?
People who hate Dominion . . . or hate themselves.
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Mahowrath

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #103 on: February 10, 2021, 05:33:12 pm »
+1

BBobb: thanks for picking up on these; can't believe how many mistakes I made on this card-shaped-object. Happy to follow the Trusty Steed precedent; I can appreciate it often makes more sense when someone could potentially topdeck the gained cards.

Spineflu: This is a good suggestion, could have a 4-6 side with 1 curse per other player without. Alternatively, it could cap the curse amount at the number of players. Alternatively alternatively, it could simply be "1 curse for being the first player, 1 curse for not being the final player".

It's a balancing act: a 2-0 curse split feels a good balance for 2 player. Beyond that, I'm happy with anything that keeps it in reach, isn't a trivial win on most boards for the first player, and ideally keeps a level-ish playing field. Part of the reason for the initial idea "X for player without" is that no player gets put into a position where they can only do the same as the player before them. Will mull this over.

Edit: I went with the alt alt idea: 1 Curse each, and 1 more/fewer for the first/last buyer respectively. This way the first buyer doesn't have to worry about overtaking a later player with a handful of curses fewer. 2-0 is maintained in 2 player, 2-1-0 feels like a fair split in 3 player; and with more players, the emptying of relevant kingdom piles should keep the game interesting for those players with the same number of Curses.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 10:15:45 am by Mahowrath »
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Xen3k

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #104 on: February 10, 2021, 05:40:21 pm »
+2

The problem is, that in a 4, 5, or 6 player game
Who plays Dominion with more than 3?
People who hate Dominion . . . or hate themselves.

You know, I rarely play Dominion with fewer than 4 players in my game group, and regularly have 5 or 6. I absolutely love Dominion, but we have customized the experience quite a bit by limiting the card pool to a specific "cube" and cutting things members of my game group hate, so it is likely not a "genuine" Dominion experience. I think one of the strengths of the game is how compatible it is to customization to meet a groups preferences. It has been a staple for our group for nearly a decade and a half, but I would not consider myself an expert at the game nor even very skilled at playing it, so I am not equipped to comment on the more competitive side of the game.
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Timinou

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #105 on: February 10, 2021, 06:42:27 pm »
+1

We've been playing 5-player games of Dominion online with friends almost every Friday since the middle of the pandemic.  While I prefer lower player counts, Dominion isn't as bad at 5 as some other games are.   
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BBobb

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #106 on: February 10, 2021, 06:58:13 pm »
0

The problem is, that in a 4, 5, or 6 player game
Who plays Dominion with more than 3?
People who hate Dominion . . . or hate themselves.
So true though.
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emtzalex

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #107 on: February 11, 2021, 02:22:49 am »
+1


Quote
Birthright - $6
Put a non-Duration Action card from the Supply onto your Birthright mat. At the start of each player's turn for the rest of the game, that player plays the card, leaving it there.
(This stays in play.)
regarding the bigger problem of playing 10+ cards at the start of your turn, or double remake, or whatever, you could just have it replace the card on the birthright mat (which gets trashed or returned to the supply or something) - only one card there at a time.

You could also just make it a Project:
Quote
At the start of each player's turn, that player plays the card you set aside.

When you buy this, set aside a non-Duration Action card from the Supply.

Thanks to spineflu and Gubump for the advice. I had thought about using a Project or otherwise limiting it to a single card, but ultimately part of the potential strategy I wanted is at least the possibility of setting up a combo that your deck can uniquely benefit from.

The solution I came up with is to make this the first card in a split pile. I realize that my crazy, gigantic Snow Gear pile last week was super unreasonable, and I really wanted to have just a single card this week, but I really think the split pile is the best way of executing this core idea, which I still really like. The second card I came up with is Legacy, but I really want Birthright to be my submission, as it's the one I think best meets the contest criteria. I'm not sure if that goes against the rules or is disqualifying, I will make modifications accordingly.

I have made other changes as well. I've been thinking a lot about this, and how it might work. I have changed my mind on the question of it playing Command Actions, because those can play Duration cards. Normally the Command stays in play for the length of the duration (so if you use an Overlord to play a discounted Hireling, the Overlord stays in play as the Hireling for the rest of the game--bad deal). Since these cards are staying on the Birthright map, that creates something of a nightmare in terms of tracking, so I added the non-Command modifier.

I also tried to go through all of the remaining Action cards and see which would be absolutely terrible if played every turn. While there are a few that would be pretty unpleasant (Masquerade, Swindler, Count), the one that would be really unbearable is Possession, so I added additional language to exclude any cards that give additional turns (which would also apply to any other fan-made turn-granters that are not Duration cards).

That got me to this:



Which I think was an improvement, but did not solve the double-Remake problem, and the possibility of a player who is going to lose pursuing a strategy of torching the game, rather than trying to win, which I think would be both extremely un-fun and completely counter to both the spirit and current mechanics of the game. My first solution to this problem was to prohibit duplicates of cards already on a Birthright mat, which looked like this:



That's somewhat better, but there is still the possibility of Remake + Dismantle (or whatever other remodeler or other mandatory trasher), which while less likely and less harmful, would still go a long way to grinding the game to a halt. And even if Remake is the only trasher, a Birthright-ed Remake combined with any of the down-to-three handsize attacks (whether also on a Birthright map or played regularly) would also mean a 1 card hand, effectively shutting down the game and contravening the limits that the game clearly has on those attacks. I considered excluding mandatory trashers as well, but at that point the wording was just too long, and a lot of those cards are frankly ones I would want as at least a potential part of the strategy.

I ultimately came to the conclusion that the only way to make this work is to make playing the card(s) on the Birthright mat optional. Ultimately, the aspect of Birthright I like most is trying to find a card which, if played every turn, will help you significantly more than it will help your opponent. There are some relatively simple examples of this: if you've charged up Miser or Pirate Ship by filling your respective mat, you will get a lot more out of it each turn than an opponent who never bought that card (and who, in the case of Miser, trashed all of their Copper). But I think there are trickier approaches. If you've been pursuing a Duke-Duchy strategy and have a few of each, and then put Displace on the Birthright mat, you can Displace Dukes into Duchies and vice versa, with a pretty high likelihood of getting two in a turn, while your Province-purchasing opponent will have to be content either Exiling their Province for a Gold (in their discard) or Exiling a Gold for a Province (and probably not buying another) (or Exiling a Silver for a Duchy, to screw you over). I like this aspect of it more than the mandatory-Cathedral/I-can-survive-hell-better-than-you can aspect, and I am happy to ditch the latter to save the former.

The other card on the split pile is called Legacy. Again, if this is allowed, I don't want it to be considered part of my submission. Birthright fits the contest criteria, it just needs Legacy there so there aren't ten Birthrights (but there's more than one). Legacy gives +1 Action as well as +$1 for each Victory card in the players revealed hand. (Yes I realize it's a Chameleon-ed Crossroads with a fixed +Action). While it's in play (it's not a duration, so only for that turn), when it's player gains a Victory card, they also get +1VP for each Duration card that is still in play from a previous turn. The obvious synergy is with those Birthrights, because if all 5 of them are out there you're getting a non-deck filling Duchy with every Victory card gained. It is also a bit of a trap, as a player might think it useful to use that last Birthright to play a Legacy (costs $7!!!) every turn. But Legacy actually loses most of it's benefit from being put on the Birthright mat -- most obviously it's strong in-play bonus, but it's coins on-play effect is best used (at least in some cases) after an engine is exhausted, rather than at the beginning of the turn. Better to use Birthright-ed cards to get and play Legacy, and set you up to gain multiple Victory cards to take advantage of the bonus.

TL;DR
I added some restrictions to avoid issues around tracking and other terrible scenarios, and to limit the number of cards played each turn, I made it a split pile (but I would like Birthright to be my submission if permissible). I will put them in a separate post for easier reference.
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emtzalex

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #108 on: February 11, 2021, 02:24:34 am »
+2

Here is the updated version of my submission, and the bottom half of the 5/5 split pile that goes with it. If permissible, I would like just Birthright to be my submission:

Birthright
(my Submission)
              Legacy
(the other card in the split pile)
             
Quote
Birthright - $6
Action - Duration
Put a non-Duration, non-Command
Action card (which does not cause an
extra turn to be taken) onto your
Birthright mat from the Supply. At
the start of each player's turn for
the rest of the game, that player
may play the card, leaving it there.
(This stays in play.)
             
Quote
Legacy - $7
Action
+1 Action
Reveal your hand. +$1 per
Victory card revealed.
-----------------
While this is in play, when
you gain a Victory card,
+1VP for each Duration card
in play not played this turn.
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silverspawn

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #109 on: February 11, 2021, 05:59:51 am »
0

My internet broke for 2 days which was very annoying but all submissions in the meantime are ok.

Here is the updated version of my submission, and the bottom half of the 5/5 split pile that goes with it. If permissible, I would like just Birthright to be my submission:

I'm not sure I understnad the request. Are you saying you want me to treat this as if it were a 10-card pile of just Birthright? If so, of course that's permissible; I mean, you could have just not posted the fact that it's a split pile. Or do you mean something else?

Rhodos

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #110 on: February 11, 2021, 02:58:53 pm »
+2



The optional effect can be used to hit price points or if you need a buy. You exchange a short term benefit for a long term penalty (basically -1VP), which is not a trivial decision, I guess.

(Somehow the title is not bold, someone knows how that can happen/be fixed?)

EDIT: Changed the wording to be in line with the official wording. Thanks for your comments, Gubump and BBobb! And thanks scolapasta for linking the fix to the title font issue.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2021, 06:05:01 am by Rhodos »
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Holger

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #111 on: February 11, 2021, 03:09:55 pm »
0

v0.1:
v0.2:
v0.3:


Quote
Omniscience - $0
Project

Play with your hand and deck entirely face up and visible. You may reorder your deck at any time.
-
When you buy this, gain a Curse if not all players have Omniscience, and another Curse if no other player has Omniscience, then put your deck into your discard pile.

Donate-esque gamechanger, with a penalty for buying it before others. Your deck becomes like a second hand to pick and choose from.

Edits: put into discard pile rather than discard deck; face up and visible rather than revealed to avoid reveal trigger shenanigans. Gaining Curses before putting deck into discard pile for consistency. Re-weighting of Curses to 2 for the Alpha and 1 for each other non-Omega to maintain the 2 Curse cost.

I think I would give it a non-zero price to make it a slightly less automatic buy. On most boards, Omniscience itself makes it easy to get rid of the Curses it gives you by lining them up with a trasher, so gaining 2 Curses is not nearly as harsh as it would be on another card.
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scolapasta

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #112 on: February 11, 2021, 03:16:36 pm »
+1

(Somehow the title is not bold, someone knows how that can happen/be fixed?)

This seems to be a current issue with the generator. See here and here.

Later in the thread, there is a suggested temporary solution (I have not tried it yet):

I think I found a temporary fix?

Looking through the source file, it seemed to be font file located at this link that were causing the problem:

https://cors-anywhere.herokuapp.com/https://shemitz.net/static/dominion3/

I loaded that link in chrome and it had a button to click to give temporary access. Not sure what it means, but I clicked it, it granted temporary access, and now when I reload the generator, the right fonts show up.


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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #113 on: February 11, 2021, 03:20:14 pm »
+3



The optional effect can be used to hit price points or if you need a buy. You exchange a short term benefit for a long term penalty (basically -1VP), which is not a trivial decision, I guess.

(Somehow the title is not bold, someone knows how that can happen/be fixed?)

This needs to specify where the Curse is coming from. Based on context, I assume the Supply?
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Rhodos

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #114 on: February 11, 2021, 05:29:25 pm »
0


This needs to specify where the Curse is coming from. Based on context, I assume the Supply?

Good point, thanks. Its from the Supply, I will change it later.
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mandioca15

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #115 on: February 11, 2021, 05:39:27 pm »
+2

Going to change my entry to this instead:

Armada (Project, $5)

At the start of each of your turns, choose one: put a card from your hand onto your Armada mat, or if you haven’t already done so this game, put all cards on your Armada mat into your hand.

This allows you to build up for one really big turn, but how far are you prepared to push your luck? Maybe someone else will get theirs in first...
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #116 on: February 11, 2021, 06:24:54 pm »
+1

Going to change my entry to this instead:

Armada (Project, $5)

At the start of each of your turns, choose one: put a card from your hand onto your Armada mat, or if you haven’t already done so this game, put all cards on your Armada mat into your hand.

This allows you to build up for one really big turn, but how far are you prepared to push your luck? Maybe someone else will get theirs in first...

If you edit a submission, edit the original post.
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Mahowrath

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #117 on: February 11, 2021, 06:36:35 pm »
0

I think I would give it a non-zero price to make it a slightly less automatic buy. On most boards, Omniscience itself makes it easy to get rid of the Curses it gives you by lining them up with a trasher, so gaining 2 Curses is not nearly as harsh as it would be on another card.

Not sure I follow; if you play first and automatically buy this in 2 player, taking 2 Curses, while your opponent takes it as soon as convenient for 0 Curses, you're relying heavily on your first player advantage surpassing a concrete disadvantage in a game with zero RNG. I wouldn't expect this to be a winning strategy.
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Carline

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #118 on: February 11, 2021, 08:14:04 pm »
+5


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BBobb

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #119 on: February 11, 2021, 09:24:48 pm »
+3


Some wording changes that I suggest:
+1 Card
+2 Actions
You may Exile a Curse from the Supply for . If you do, +1 Buy and +.

For the from the Supply part, see Coven. For the change of "if you do" see Hunting Lodge.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #120 on: February 11, 2021, 10:34:59 pm »
+1

For the change of "if you do" see Hunting Lodge.

Better yet, see Moneylender, which actually changed from "if you do" in the First Edition to "for" in the Second Edition.
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BBobb

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #121 on: February 11, 2021, 10:57:45 pm »
+2

For the change of "if you do" see Hunting Lodge.

Better yet, see Moneylender, which actually changed from "if you do" in the First Edition to "for" in the Second Edition.
Yeah, there are many cards that are like that. I just tried to choose the most recent one to show what Donald X's wording is like nowadays.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #122 on: February 12, 2021, 04:14:04 am »
0

My submission for this weeks contest, for now



Chessmaster
5$   Action-Command
Reveal any 3 cards from your deck. Discard the Commands and Non-Actions, and play the rest in any order. If you didn't play any cards, +1 Action.

----


Shoutout to S_Smarths for wording input on this, this was a pretty messy card before that.

Edit: Timou suggested a new wording, so i wrote his wording instead.



Edit 2:
People dont seem fond of the chessmaster card, so im changing my submission if thats allowed.


A throne room/ procession variant, that gives you a high amount of control, but trashes both card involved.

Changed the submission if thats allowed. in case its not, let me now and i'll revert back.
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silverspawn

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #123 on: February 12, 2021, 04:45:51 am »
+1

Certainly allowed

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #124 on: February 12, 2021, 10:42:50 am »
+1

Edited to rename (was previously "Customs House") and add clarifications and notes

Quote
Customs Shed
Project $0

When you gain a non-Victory card, you may exile it and another copy of it from the supply.
If you do, you may not discard cards from your exile mat for the rest of the turn.

Some clarifications:
  • If you trigger Customs Shed then you are prevented from discarding cards from your exile mat for the rest of the current turn, whether it is your turn or another player's. The prevention overrides any other effect (such as Coven) which may tell you to discard cards from exile.
  • When you gain a card, you may use the gain to trigger discarding of cards from your exile mat, so long as you do so before triggering Customs Shed (and so long as you have not triggered Customs Shed earlier on this turn).

Notes:
  • Sometimes the play will be obvious, such as preventing junk cards entering your deck.
  • When gaining good cards, the decision to trigger Customs Shed is likely to depend on considerations such as tempo, shuffle timing and the likelihood of a pile emptying.
  • Customs Shed can also increase end-game control.
  • The name is a thematic extension of Port (which gives you an extra copy of itself). At this port, however, the customs officials make it much slower to receive what you want.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2021, 04:33:03 am by infangthief »
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