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Author Topic: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling  (Read 22122 times)

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silverspawn

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Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« on: February 06, 2021, 04:00:06 pm »
+7

Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling

Design a card-shaped thing that has a high skill ceiling, i.e., that is unusually difficult to play optimally.

Since this is not a measurable criterion, I will ultimately decide whether an entry counts, but I intend to be lenient and allow cards even if it's a stretch. If you're not sure how to go about this, here are some examples of categories that would count. (Not trying to be exhaustive.)

  • Cards that reward deck-tracking. This includes Wishing Well, Mystic, Encampment, Catacombs, Herald, Vassal, Doctor, Messenger, Gamble, ...
  • Cards that give you an unusual amount of control over your deck. Cards in this category include Donate, Chapel, Archive, Tactician, and Watchtower.
  • Cards where it's unusually hard to know if you should buy them. This includes Castles and Flag Bearer.
  • Cards that are volatile and can easily ruin your deck if played incorrectly. This includes things like Develop, Procession, Stonemason, or Archive.
  • Cards that transform your deck in unpredictable ways and force you to adapt. Includes Jester and Swindler.
  • Cards that bring the game into a unique state that you rarely get to play (and that isn't trivial). Maybe playing a madman mega turn isn't really harder than regular dominion, but since you get to do it so rarely, it's difficult in practice, and so Hermit and Native Village are in this category. Also Peasant because of Teacher.
  • Cards that give you a lot of choices. Governor and black market are in this category.

Note that I like simple cards, so your best shot to win may be a card that looks innocent on first glance but is secretly tricky, like Archive or Watchtower.

If your submission doesn't qualify, I'll tell you as soon as you post it, or maybe I'll ask you to explain why you think it qualifies. If I don't say anything, you're good to go.

If you edit a submission, edit the original post.

Fragasnap

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2021, 04:37:38 pm »
+7


Quote
Toady
Types: Action
Cost: $3P
Name a card. Reveal the top 2 cards of your deck and then put them into your hand. If either was the named card or a Potion, play this again. Otherwise, +1 Buy.
A variation on +2 Cards and +1 Buy.  You get more cards if you find a Potion or can name one of the two cards you draw.  Its cost has you buying Toadies when your deck has a bit more variety than just Coppers and Estates.
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2021, 04:42:26 pm »
+4


Decided to replace my former entry with something more unique that has also been more thoroughly playtested. I consider Appraiser to have a high skill ceiling because it can easily flood your deck with too many Silvers if it's misused.


In addition to the choice of which card to emulate with it, Mayor also has the additional choice of whether you do so now or later.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2021, 11:30:49 pm by Gubump »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2021, 04:46:05 pm »
+3

A thing I once posted (and refined through the help of others) on the Discord server:



I think it fits this week's rules considering that this card requires a little more thinking about when you want to play this during your turn.

The 2 additional Provinces may push you toward building a little more, and Capital City's extra Buy and payload you get when you do indeed build big and play a lot of cards on your turns should reward that.


Edit: Reformatted the card to remove the weird Sacrifice-like spaces in the 3 options. Gubump's right. It's easier to read and cleaner like this.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2021, 10:46:19 am by X-tra »
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2021, 04:48:31 pm »
0

A thing I once posted (and refined through the help of others) on the Discord server:



I think it fits this week's rules considering that this card requires a little more thinking about when you want to play this during your turn.

The 2 additional Provinces may push you toward building a little more, and Capital City's extra Buy and payload you get when you do indeed build big and play a lot of cards on your turns should reward that.

Why does it have the big gaps like that? I don't think it needs the giant spaces. (You definitely don't need the "exactly," see Devil's Workshop.)
« Last Edit: February 06, 2021, 04:51:15 pm by Gubump »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2021, 04:50:47 pm »
+1

Why does it have the big gaps like that? I don't think it needs the giant spaces.


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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2021, 04:52:12 pm »
0

Why does it have the big gaps like that? I don't think it needs the giant spaces.




Weird, I wonder why Sacrifice is the only one of these kinds of cards that does that.
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Timinou

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2021, 05:28:33 pm »
+1

@silverspawn: Would you consider cards like Treasure Map or Leprechaun as having a high skill ceiling?
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silverspawn

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2021, 06:07:05 pm »
+1

@silverspawn: Would you consider cards like Treasure Map or Leprechaun as having a high skill ceiling?

yes on both

mathdude

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2021, 09:24:55 pm »
+1

Hi everyone.  I've been playing Dominion now for a few years, reading Dominion stuff online (mostly the wiki) just about as long, reading this forum for just over a week, and it's time to make my debut.  Online, I've briefly played from every expansion.  In person, I've played everything except Alchemy, Hinterlands, and Renaissance (between me and a few family members, we own the rest).

I've recently taken an interest in creating my own cards, which is how I got to this forum.  I've read through the Weekly Design Hall of Fame, and I love many of the ideas there.  I'm generally less of a fan of using new game mechanics not already in an existing expansion (which is odd, because my entry below does exactly that!), but I do like to try to fill existing gaps that haven't been fully developed.  And I am starting to build my own expansion, but it will be a couple weeks until I reveal it on the forums here - I'm about 10 cards into an intended ~30-card expansion, and I want to finish them all, play-test a bit, and adjust a little before I reveal them.

Anyway, my father-in-law and I have been toying around with the concept of Sins in the fan-made expansion Salvation - negative VP tokens (the logical stepchild of Curses and VP tokens).  I believe in that expansion, some cards give you sins and some take them away.  But my father-in-law is looking at making an expansion that just has cards that give out sins, except for the split pile Prophet/Messiah, below.  It could be added randomly to a Kingdom, as it is a supply pile.  But its main design is that this would be added as an 11th Kingdom pile if any card is in play that gives out +Sins.  Obviously Prophet is on top and Messiah is on the bottom (5 of each).

Old version:

Quote
Prophet
Type: Action
Cost: $2
+2 Cards
+1 Sin
You may discard any number of treasures, revealed.  For each $2 they would have produced, draw a card.  You may play a Messiah from your hand.

Prophet updated:

Quote
Prophet
Type: Action
Cost: $2
+$2
+1 Sin
You may discard any number of Treasure cards, revealed, then draw that many.  You may play a Messiah card from your hand.
Now it's helpful to discard coppers at the chance of drawing something better (before buying Messiah), and also gives you the option to discard silvers, golds, or other treasures each for only +1 Card after you have bought Messiah.


Quote
Messiah
Type: Action
Cost: $5
If you have a Prophet in play, you may trash it and this to remove all your Sins.  Otherwise, +$3
---
While this is in play, you may not buy Messiah

Messiah is a terminal 5-cost gold until you match it properly.  And even mid-game, you still play it as terminal gold since you will continue to get more Sins in the game and the goal is to match it as close to game end as possible.  (If you match early, you may need to buy another one, if there are any left).  Also, thematically, you should only have 1 Messiah, so it at least prevents the buying of another while it is in play (and in a 3 or 4 player game, it would not be good if 1 person bought out 3 or 4 of them).

But the Prophet, in a stand-alone pile (not added as 11th Kingdom pile), I think even at 2-cost this is still too weak to be worth buying.  Maybe it needs different/more vanilla bonuses?  Or do I make it 1-cost?  But in games with other Sins being given out, you do want to buy as many of the 5 of these as possible, to get to the Messiahs quickly and increase the odds of matching Messiah before the game ends.  However, it's a strategic decision of whether you discard additional treasures (giving up buying power this turn) to try and draw Messiah if you don't yet have it in your hand.  I may switch +2 Cards to +$2 so it doesn't give you a free extra search for Messiah (thus forcing more decision about discarding)... but then $2 here and $3 for Messiah seems boring.

You would be fairly sure you could time your Messiah removing all Sins near end of game in Engines that draw your full deck.  However, neither of these cards helps you build those engines well.  Otherwise, you need to plan your deck, and the number of Prophets and Messiahs that you buy (and when to buy them) to give you a good chance of removing all Sins before the game ends.

Looking for thoughts, potential improvements, etc.

[Side note - my images appear to be huge, at least on my screen.  Can someone give me advice on how to get them to a reasonable size?  I downloaded file from shardofhonor's site, then uploaded to imgur and used the BBCode here]
« Last Edit: February 07, 2021, 01:11:21 pm by mathdude »
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spineflu

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2021, 10:04:13 pm »
+1

[Side note - my images appear to be huge, at least on my screen.  Can someone give me advice on how to get them to a reasonable size?  I downloaded file from shardofhonor's site, then uploaded to imgur and used the BBCode here]

Heya! Welcome! I added in a width attribute in your [ img ] tags that helps them display less huge

Sins are -1VP each, right?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2021, 10:41:33 pm by spineflu »
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2021, 10:04:30 pm »
+1

[Side note - my images appear to be huge, at least on my screen.  Can someone give me advice on how to get them to a reasonable size?  I downloaded file from shardofhonor's site, then uploaded to imgur and used the BBCode here]

To make the image the size you want (I recommend 250 for Kingdom cards), the BBCode you want to use is:
Code: [Select]
[img width=250]something.png[/img]

Edit: Ninja'ed by spineflu.
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spineflu

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2021, 10:38:27 pm »
+4


Quote
Chamberlain • $4 • Action - Duration
Now and at the start of your next 3 turns, choose one you haven't picked yet:

+2 Cards; or +$2; or Trash 2 cards from your hand; or Gain a Copper to the top of your deck.

Entering this for the "lots of choices" and kinda "deck control"/"adverse consequences" criteria. It's like a Steward, but better, until it isn't, then it's worse. I just about made my laptop melt opening illustrator to throw down some honestly pretty bad vector work so i guess i get to buy more ram now. Each option on the card is illustrated on the image so you can track it what you've done already with pennies or coin tokens or whatever you've got available. sharpie if you like making cards a whole lot.

edit: modified to $4 per Holger's advice.

Also i made some pretty interesting missteps that i'll post when the contest is over, they aren't good but they are kind of interesting thought experiments in "passable cards" that aren't actually "fun to play with".
« Last Edit: February 07, 2021, 04:59:09 pm by spineflu »
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2021, 10:47:56 pm »
+1



In addition to the choice of which card to emulate with it, Mayor also has the additional choice of whether you do so now or later.

Does this stay out if you choose to emulate this turn? If not, then it's strictly better than Overlord, for a cheaper cost (not debt, but still.)
« Last Edit: February 06, 2021, 10:50:13 pm by Commodore Chuckles »
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spineflu

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2021, 10:49:25 pm »
+2



In addition to the choice of which card to emulate with it, Mayor also has the additional choice of whether you do so now or later.

Does this stay out if you choose to emulate this turn? If so, then it's strictly better than Overlord, for a cheaper cost (not debt, but still.)

kinda like Barge, no? it wouldn't stay out for emulating this turn. Overlord can also play duration cards so there's some wiggle room on "strictly" there.
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mathdude

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2021, 10:56:44 pm »
+1

[Side note - my images appear to be huge, at least on my screen.  Can someone give me advice on how to get them to a reasonable size?  I downloaded file from shardofhonor's site, then uploaded to imgur and used the BBCode here]

Heya! Welcome! I added in a width attribute in your [ img ] tags that helps them display less huge

Sins are -1VP each, right?

Thanks for the image tip!  And yes, Sins are -1VP each.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2021, 11:46:23 pm »
+3

my entry:
Quote
Monkey's Paw
$4 - Action - Victory
Choose one: Gain a Curse and if you do, gain a Wish; or +$2 and you may have the player to your left gain this on top of their deck.
-
Worth 1 VP if you gained this after your last turn of the game. Otherwise, worth -2 VP.

Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2021, 11:56:37 pm »
+1

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spheremonk

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2021, 01:09:20 am »
+1





Welcome to the forum! You certainly sound like someone who loves the game and will add energy to the community.

Regarding Prophet, introducing a concept like what discarded Treasures "would have produced" that doesn’t otherwise exist (and isn't defined) in Dominion, is problematic, particularly for the Treasures that produce variable $.

The current digital version of Bank probably "would have produced" $0 no matter what order you discard it in, since the other discarded Treasures aren’t "in play," but it might be understood to be worth more if Black Market or Storyteller played Treasures earlier in the turn. The physical version of Bank says "When you play this," so it seems to be worth $0 when discarded, since it wasn’t played (and now the recent change that Donald X made removing that language from Treasures, which wasn’t intended to be substantive, is potentially meaningful).

Philosopher's Stone and Diadem still say "When you play this" in all versions, so they’re worth $0, maybe? I don’t know.

The strangest effect is arguably to Fool’s Gold, particularly if you discard one copy. "If this is the first time you played Fool’s Gold this turn +$1, otherwise +$4." You didn’t play Fool’s Gold, so this isn’t the first time you played Fool’s Gold this turn, so I guess it’s worth $4? 

My point is not that any of the specific interpretations above are the correct readings, just that without more definition, there isn't a clear way to construe any of it. And these are only a few examples. Even if you change the language to something like, "would have produced if you played them," it doesn’t work on its own absent more definition.

[Minor bits: (1) "treasures" should be capitalized; (2) you need something like "(rounded down)" after, "For each $2"; and (3) these days, "+1 Card" is preferred to "draw a card."]
« Last Edit: February 07, 2021, 01:32:22 am by spheremonk »
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2021, 03:21:39 am »
0

The problem of the card is not ambiguity in the case of Treasures that produce a variable amount of Coins. It is rather that the sifting is far too weak. I mean, cool, I can sift through some Silvers. That is better than nothing but still extremely weak for a terminal sifter. You would rarely sift through Coppers.

I‘d rather simplify the card and get rid of the sifting.
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2021, 03:41:53 am »
0


I heard that capitalists love the woods.

More seriously, a self-gaining semi-one-shot is a bad idea. You can always gain too man terminal-space-wise and then blow them up. Seems pretty autopilot-y to me.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2021, 04:22:48 am »
+5


Quote
Revolution - $6
Event/Looter

Exile all Actions you have in play. At the start of your next turn, gain a Ruins; if you did, +1 VP per Action you have in Exile.

EDIT: Now with improved wording! Hopefully it is unambiguous.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2021, 07:50:49 am by faust »
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Holger

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2021, 05:21:09 am »
+2


Quote
Chamberlain • $5 • Action - Duration
Now and at the start of your next 3 turns, choose one you haven't picked yet:

+2 Cards; or +$2; or Trash 2 cards from your hand; or Gain a Copper to the top of your deck.

Entering this for the "lots of choices" and kinda "deck control" criteria. It's like a Steward, but better, until it isn't, then it's worse. I just about made my laptop melt opening illustrator to throw down some honestly pretty bad vector work so i guess i get to buy more ram now. Each option on the card is illustrated on the image so you can track it what you've done already with pennies or coin tokens or whatever you've got available. sharpie if you like making cards a whole lot.

I'm not sure on the $5 cost on this - I initially had it at $3 but that seemed way cheap.

Also i made some pretty interesting missteps that i'll post when the contest is over, they aren't good but they are kind of interesting thought experiments in "passable cards" that aren't actually "fun to play with".

Thats an interesting concept. :) But I don't see it as initially better than Steward - it only nets one trashed bad card in 4 turns, much slower than Steward's trashing, and less flexible as you have to use up all the choices before discarding Chamberlain. It also has Lookout's problem of "blind" forced trashing in the mid- to late game.

Without the Copper penalty option, I could see this as a good $5 card, sort of a mix of Steward, Wharf and Merchant Ship.

As is, I would indeed rather try this at $3 or maybe $4, though it's hard to tell without playtesting.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2021, 07:03:13 am »
0

Penglai Medicine
cost $2P - Treasure
Reveal your deck until you reveal a non-Treasure card. +$1 per a revealed card. Discard the Treasures, and put back the rest.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #104: Raise the Ceiling
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2021, 07:26:16 am »
0



Sorry, this one doesn't qualify (unless you can tell me what I've missed). It seems straight-forward to control how many of those you have, and that just makes it a simple, pretty strong terminal payload. Try something else?
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