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Author Topic: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics  (Read 45825 times)

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emtzalex

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #300 on: April 13, 2021, 12:39:36 am »
0



Quote from: Palazzo di Famiglia
PALAZZO DI FAMIGLIA 
ACTION - KIN - VICTORY
+2 Cards
You may play a Kin from your hand.


Worth 2VP per differently named Kin you have, that you have more copies of than each other player, or tied for most.
                                                     

An Alt-VP card that is both functional and scaling, it can be very powerful depending on which cards end up being Kin. If you can get the most copies of this an the two cards with Kin markers, these could be worth 6VP each, and if those cards are non-terminal, reasonably useful Actions, they could form a powerful engine to boot. Of course, if your opponent can beat you out on one of the Kin, these each drop to 4VP, making overreliance on these potentially risky.

I would imagine that in games where the Kin work pretty well with this, there will be a decently strong incentive to simply pile all the Kin, and those games will frequently have 3-pile endings. While that is a bit unusual, I don't think it is necessarily a problem, and I think it would make for an interesting change of pace in the game.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2021, 12:52:09 am by emtzalex »
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emtzalex

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #301 on: April 13, 2021, 01:31:01 am »
+1


Quote
Family Reunion
Action - Reaction - Kin
$6
+1 Action
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 2 Kin cards. Discard the rest, then put those cards into your hand.
-
When you gain a Kin card, you may reveal this from your hand to put it onto your deck.
A lab variant which digs specifically for Kin cards, it also has a Reaction that allows you to immediately top-deck any gained Kin cards, which works quite nicely with it's on-play ability too, if gained during your Action phase.

Nice. I had a similar idea (also called Family Reunion), but couldn't get it to a place I liked. This seems like a better way to implement it.

I did have one suggestion about wording. The way the reaction is phrased, it sounds like you are putting Family Reunion onto the deck, rather than the card gained. I would suggest "When you gain a Kin card, you may reveal this from your hand to put that card onto your deck." (See Watchtower or Sleigh, both of which refer to the card being gained as "that card" on first mention).

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mxdata

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #302 on: April 13, 2021, 02:25:36 am »
0


Quote
Family Reunion
Action - Reaction - Kin
$6
+1 Action
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 2 Kin cards. Discard the rest, then put those cards into your hand.
-
When you gain a Kin card, you may reveal this from your hand to put it onto your deck.
A lab variant which digs specifically for Kin cards, it also has a Reaction that allows you to immediately top-deck any gained Kin cards, which works quite nicely with it's on-play ability too, if gained during your Action phase.

Nice. I had a similar idea (also called Family Reunion), but couldn't get it to a place I liked. This seems like a better way to implement it.

I did have one suggestion about wording. The way the reaction is phrased, it sounds like you are putting Family Reunion onto the deck, rather than the card gained. I would suggest "When you gain a Kin card, you may reveal this from your hand to put that card onto your deck." (See Watchtower or Sleigh, both of which refer to the card being gained as "that card" on first mention).

Ah, right.  Good catch, thanks :)  Correcting that now
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Aquila

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #303 on: April 13, 2021, 03:59:42 am »
+1

This will be interesting! I think it will be best if I don't enter myself, but after the contest is over I could give my own assessment on each entry? It won't affect DunnoItAll's vote, of course, just some extra feedback.

Just to clarify, I would recommend in the rulebook to use just 1 or 2 original Kins per game, to stop too much happening. So don't let Kin overload affect your designs.

The Kin marker can't go on Victory cards, but there can be Kin - Victory cards, like Banner in the OP, and what would it mean to "play" a Victory card?


Quote from: Palazzo di Famiglia
PALAZZO DI FAMIGLIA 
ACTION - KIN - VICTORY
+2 Cards
You may play a Kin from your hand.


Worth 2VP per differently named Kin you have, that you have more copies of than each other player, or tied for most.
                                                     
'Play a Kin' seems like a really useful way to employ the mechanic, and that's largely why I made the two Markers not go under Victory piles, enforcing more interactivity for all other Kins as well. Yet, the existence of Banner made things really inelegant; though I guess a pure Reaction kingdom pile would do the same.

So, there are 3 options: a rule could be made for 'playing' unplayable cards; or 'play a Kin' phrases like on Palazzo di Famiglia always need to specify Action, Treasure or Night Kins; or Banner and pure Reaction piles should never exist. The first option I suppose is the most elegant. Could they just be discarded if they have no on-play effect? What do you think here?
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mathdude

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #304 on: April 13, 2021, 08:52:42 am »
+1

'Play a Kin' seems like a really useful way to employ the mechanic, and that's largely why I made the two Markers not go under Victory piles, enforcing more interactivity for all other Kins as well. Yet, the existence of Banner made things really inelegant; though I guess a pure Reaction kingdom pile would do the same.

So, there are 3 options: a rule could be made for 'playing' unplayable cards; or 'play a Kin' phrases like on Palazzo di Famiglia always need to specify Action, Treasure or Night Kins; or Banner and pure Reaction piles should never exist. The first option I suppose is the most elegant. Could they just be discarded if they have no on-play effect? What do you think here?

To be most consistent with official game design/mechanics, you either have to take option 2 (always specify which types of cards can be played) which is really cumbersome and I don't think that's ideal, or you have to take option 3 and not let those kinds of cards exist which I think is more likely.

However, we are designing new mechanics.  Part of that process is deciding what happens when something appears broken.  So I don't think it's unreasonable to implement a new rule for this case.  You could discard such cards when "playing" them, but this is counterintuitive and is disadvantageous if you need to shuffle and draw more cards (drawing another of these dead cards).  I would recommend simply putting them "in play" and stating that nothing happens if they have no "play ability" on the card.
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emtzalex

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #305 on: April 13, 2021, 05:34:57 pm »
0

'Play a Kin' seems like a really useful way to employ the mechanic, and that's largely why I made the two Markers not go under Victory piles, enforcing more interactivity for all other Kins as well. Yet, the existence of Banner made things really inelegant; though I guess a pure Reaction kingdom pile would do the same.

So, there are 3 options: a rule could be made for 'playing' unplayable cards; or 'play a Kin' phrases like on Palazzo di Famiglia always need to specify Action, Treasure or Night Kins; or Banner and pure Reaction piles should never exist. The first option I suppose is the most elegant. Could they just be discarded if they have no on-play effect? What do you think here?

So, when I was thinking about it, my thought was that while it could be used to play an Banner or another Kin-Victory card, doing so would not cause anything to happen, and it's overall effect on the game would be nominal. There are a few situations where this might be helpful: you might want to get a Victory card in play so you could trash it using Bonfire. Here, given the importance the Palazzo puts on having Kin cards, that seems like something you would never do (at least with this). There are other ways getting the card out of your had could be advantageous (if you were using a drawto card like Library; if you didn't want it to go back onto your deck from Haunted Woods); that makes this equivalent to discarding the card. But I don't have a problem with card saying "You may discard a Kin card. If it's an Action, Treasure, or Night card, you may play it." That is a little more powerful, but not that much. Also, in the case of the drawto cards, you ultimately end up with the same number of cards in your hand.

Having thought about this a little further, I actually think that the rules as they currently exist would not permit a player to play a Banner using Palazzo di Famiglia. The analogy I would draw here is to gainers. The default rule is that when the effect of a card (or WELP) tells you to "gain a [card]," you must gain that card from the Supply. The only exceptions are where it either expressly tells you to gain the card from somewhere else (e.g. Lurker), or where it tells you to gain a specific card that is not in the Supply (e.g. cards that gain Horses; Pillage). When a card instructs you to gain one amongst a class of cards that includes both cards permitted by the rules and those not, the default rule still applies, and you cannot gain a card from somewhere other than the Supply. So, for example, although Changeling lets you gain a copy of a card you have in play, if you have a non-Supply card like Imp in play, Changeling cannot gain it. 

I would say the same is true with Palazzo di Famiglia. It allows you to play a card with the type "Kin," but that doesn't change the rule that you cannot play Victory cards.
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mxdata

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #306 on: April 13, 2021, 07:07:55 pm »
0

'Play a Kin' seems like a really useful way to employ the mechanic, and that's largely why I made the two Markers not go under Victory piles, enforcing more interactivity for all other Kins as well. Yet, the existence of Banner made things really inelegant; though I guess a pure Reaction kingdom pile would do the same.

So, there are 3 options: a rule could be made for 'playing' unplayable cards; or 'play a Kin' phrases like on Palazzo di Famiglia always need to specify Action, Treasure or Night Kins; or Banner and pure Reaction piles should never exist. The first option I suppose is the most elegant. Could they just be discarded if they have no on-play effect? What do you think here?

So, when I was thinking about it, my thought was that while it could be used to play an Banner or another Kin-Victory card, doing so would not cause anything to happen, and it's overall effect on the game would be nominal. There are a few situations where this might be helpful: you might want to get a Victory card in play so you could trash it using Bonfire. Here, given the importance the Palazzo puts on having Kin cards, that seems like something you would never do (at least with this). There are other ways getting the card out of your had could be advantageous (if you were using a drawto card like Library; if you didn't want it to go back onto your deck from Haunted Woods); that makes this equivalent to discarding the card. But I don't have a problem with card saying "You may discard a Kin card. If it's an Action, Treasure, or Night card, you may play it." That is a little more powerful, but not that much. Also, in the case of the drawto cards, you ultimately end up with the same number of cards in your hand.

Having thought about this a little further, I actually think that the rules as they currently exist would not permit a player to play a Banner using Palazzo di Famiglia. The analogy I would draw here is to gainers. The default rule is that when the effect of a card (or WELP) tells you to "gain a [card]," you must gain that card from the Supply. The only exceptions are where it either expressly tells you to gain the card from somewhere else (e.g. Lurker), or where it tells you to gain a specific card that is not in the Supply (e.g. cards that gain Horses; Pillage). When a card instructs you to gain one amongst a class of cards that includes both cards permitted by the rules and those not, the default rule still applies, and you cannot gain a card from somewhere other than the Supply. So, for example, although Changeling lets you gain a copy of a card you have in play, if you have a non-Supply card like Imp in play, Changeling cannot gain it. 

I would say the same is true with Palazzo di Famiglia. It allows you to play a card with the type "Kin," but that doesn't change the rule that you cannot play Victory cards.

I don't believe there's actually a rule that you can't play a Victory card, it's just that what would happen is undefined.  The basic rules are that during your Action phase you may play Action cards, during your Buy phase you may play Treasure cards, and during your Night phase you may play Night cards, so there's no phase, except the implicit "Scoring phase" at the end of the game, that allows you to play a Victory card.  But there are cards that alter these for Action and Treasure cards.  Scepter and Capitalism allow you to play Action cards during your Buy phase, and cards like Black Market and Storyteller, or the Event Reap, allow you to play Treasure cards during your Action phase, and there are some reactions like Black Cat that can even allow an Action card to be played when it's not even your turn.  And there are a few edge cases  using Way of the Mouse and certain reactions that can even allow Action or Treasure cards to played during your Night phase.  At present, there are no cards that permit (pure) Night cards to be played during your Action or Buy phase, but in principle a card or landscape *could* be created that would allow that.  If there were a Night-Kin card, for example, Palazzo di Famiglia could, as currently written, allow such a card to be played during your Action phase

So, I don't see what would be different in principle about playing a Victory card during your turn.  In effect, you could say that a Victory card is simply a card with instructions "If this is the Scoring phase +X VP" (there has to be an implicit "if this is the Scoring phase" clause, since Action-Victory or Treasure-Victory cards don't give you VP when played during the game ... or maybe not, if you simply consider VP to be the same as coins and Actions, being lost at the end of the current turn, with VP tokens having the same relationship to VP as coffers do to coins, so only the VP earned during the Scoring phase count).  If you play it during your Action phase, then, nothing happens.  But there's no rule that you can't play a card when it has no effect, after all.  You can play a Smithy when you've already drawn your deck, or a mandatory trasher when it's the last card in your hand, for example.  So, in my opinion, the most logical answer would be "Yes, you can play a pure Victory-Kin card with Palazzo di Famiglia, it just has no effect".  And there's a few cases where you might want to do that - in order to have the card in play for Changeling to copy, for example
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Xen3k

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #307 on: April 13, 2021, 08:13:54 pm »
+1



Quote
Family Loyalists
Action - Duration - Attack - Kin
At the start of your next turn, +1 Buy and Kin cards cost $2 less that turn.
Move a Kin marker from one Kingdom pile to another non-Victory, non-Kin Kingdom pile.
-
While this is in play, when another player plays a Kin, they put their –1 Card token on their deck.

A strange Militia/Bridge variant that allows players to move the Kin markers around. Not sure if that is not allowed, but this creates some weird interactions as the Bridge effect is delayed and only effects Kin cards. Additionally, if players want to disrupt what is discounted, they would have to play their own Family Loyalists and receive the -1 Card token penalty.

Really not sure if this is too good or not. Feedback is appreciated.
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DunnoItAll

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #308 on: April 13, 2021, 09:33:40 pm »
+1



Quote
Family Loyalists
Action - Duration - Attack - Kin
At the start of your next turn, +1 Buy and Kin cards cost $2 less that turn.
Move a Kin marker from one Kingdom pile to another non-Victory, non-Kin Kingdom pile.
-
While this is in play, when another player plays a Kin, they put their –1 Card token on their deck.

Not sure if that is not allowed

My ruling is: heck yeah it's allowed.  Use the mechanic however you want, as long as you use the mechanic.
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Mahowrath

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #309 on: April 16, 2021, 07:40:07 am »
+5



Quote
Kinslayer - $4
Action - Kin

You may trash a kin from your hand for +3 Cards, +1 Action, +$2
-
In games using this, when you gain a Kin, gain a Kinslayer (that doesn't come with another)

Pile size: 16

Somewhere between Experiment, Rats and Death Cart; non-terminal draw and payload that relies heavily on collisions. You probably don't initially want these clogging your deck, but once approaching deck control these become an incentive to buy kin.
Increased pile-size to give fair access/avoid trivial 3-piling.

(Minor edit: colour change)
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 07:52:56 am by Mahowrath »
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DunnoItAll

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #310 on: April 17, 2021, 11:06:42 pm »
+2

12-ish hour warning!

I have the following entries so far:

Family Reunion
Collection
Family Loyalists
Sepulchre
Palazzo di Famiglia
Kinslayer

If you don't see your card in that list, let me know.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2021, 11:35:05 pm by DunnoItAll »
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DunnoItAll

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #311 on: April 18, 2021, 01:24:53 pm »
+4

Submissions are now closed. I will render judgement and critiques asap.
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DunnoItAll

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #312 on: April 19, 2021, 09:22:12 pm »
+5

Just a quick note:

Since there were only 6 submissions, I decided to play a complete game with each card.  I've gotten through 4 games now.  2 left. Tomorrow is possible, but Wednesday is likely. Sorry for the delay.
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Aquila

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #313 on: April 21, 2021, 05:33:47 am »
+3

Here's my theory-crafting review, without playtesting:

Quote
Collection (mathdude)
$2 Action - Kin
+1 Action
-
While you have this in play, when you play a Kin, (first?) choose one of the following that you haven't chosen this turn: +1 Card; +1 Action; +1 Buy; + $1; gain a silver; gain a Horse; trash a card from your hand.
Buffing a Kin by adding +Card can be strong, but doing it only once balances out; the other +bonuses can be similarly strong. However, I see this creating analysis paralysis and tracking issues a lot of the time, which option do you take when, which ones have you already done on each Collection? The premise of tailored buffs to Kins would be nice to get to work, but this could be greatly simplified.

Quote
Fratricide (johntgrizzz)
$4 Action - Kin
+1 Action
+1 VP
Trash a card from your hand. If the trashed card is Kin, +3 VP.
This likes Kins that are easily gained, a simple variable quality to employ and a trash-for-benefit achieves it well. Making the 1VP conditional on trashing a card would be completely safe from infinite VP scenarios without much change to its play. And maybe 3 extra VP is too much? With having +1 Action Fratricide itself is easy to gain, so having trashing to thin the deck as well as 4VP outside the deck for $4 on self trash, very favourable over Duchy, makes for a very powerful card.

Quote
Sepulchre (Timinou)
$4 - Action - Kin
+1VP
At the start of Clean-up, you may trash a Kin you would discard from play this turn to gain +1VP per $2 it costs (round down).
It likes expensive Kins to trash late game after they have been well used, so the closer involved they are to the best strategy the better. So, it's most interesting when the Kins are not the best strategy, otherwise it's rather scripted. The unconditional +1 VP can create the infinite game scenario too, maybe trashing a Kin should be forced.

Quote
Family Reunion (mxdata)
$6 - Action - Reaction - Kin
+1 Action
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 2 Kin cards. Discard the rest, then put those cards into your hand.
-
When you gain a Kin card, you may reveal this from your hand to put that card onto your deck.
Kin draw is something I've never felt I cracked. To maximise the $6 investment here, for every 2 other Kins you have you gain one of these, although this needs to appear in hand before they do. If you gain one before 2 others, you're using the Reaction or digging for one important Kin, probably not worth investing $6 in. So it's unreliable and likely expensive.

Quote
Palazzo di Famiglia (emtzalex)
$6 - Action - Kin - Victory
+2 Cards
You may play a Kin from your hand.
-
Worth 2VP per differently named Kin you have, that you have more copies of than each other player, or tied for most.
This creates competition to win Kin splits, so if they're easier to add to deck this is more relevant. So this is very hot competition, being a Lab variant that scores highly. Changing the bottom part to a global 'in games using this, +2VP...' would make this far less centralising. It might be nice then, a Triumphal Arch - Obelisk fusion for competitive play.

Quote
Family Loyalists (Xen3k)
$4 - Action - Duration - Attack - Kin
At the start of your next turn, +1 Buy and Kin cards cost $2 less that turn.
Move a Kin marker from one Kingdom pile to another non-Victory, non-Kin Kingdom pile.
-
While you have this in play, when another player plays a Kin, they put their –1 Card token on their deck.
Very different play, calling for adaptation more than start-of-game analysis. So it will be hard to put with a second original Kin, but no real problem I guess. Piles of your choice, two of which can't be changed each play, cost less for you next turn but a -Card for opponents until then. It's about correctly guessing what opponents need, making them change mind, take the -Card or denying them $2 reduction if they have FLs in play. With the Action needed and self bonus occurring just next turn holding this back from being centralising, I could see this working out.

Quote
Kinslayer (Mahowrath)
$4 - Action - Kin
You may trash a kin from your hand for +3 Cards, +1 Action and +$2.
-
In games using this, when you gain a Kin, gain a Kinslayer (that doesn't come with another).
Doesn't matter too much what the other Kins are for this, but cheaper is a bit better. With its singular niche forcing itself into the deck, being a junk card otherwise, the question is whether to invest in any Kin pile, avoid them all, or try getting unwanted Kinslayers to trash themselves. If one of the other Kins is very relevant, interesting decisions could be made, and sometimes changing Kin's functions to non-terminal draw is best to save a turn. It's quite good, though the strategic element might be set back a bit by the strict need for lining it up.


My own focus on Kins has been about start-of-game analysis, and I concluded that for that approach, having a positive and negative impact on the deck to weigh up works best. Sepulchre doesn't have much of a negative, whilst Kinslayer does, so I would prefer it myself.
Family Loyalists is a very different card, which was nice to see.

But now let's wait for DunnoItAll.
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Timinou

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #314 on: April 21, 2021, 07:28:00 am »
0

I like the suggestion for Sepulchre to force you to trash a Kin.  I think I just copied the wording from Improve without giving it much thought, but forced trashing gives you a bit more to think about.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 07:29:24 am by Timinou »
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DunnoItAll

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #315 on: April 21, 2021, 09:40:31 am »
+2

Work stuff has ramped up and I didn't get to test the last two cards.  Hopefully I can tonight, and I will get the results posted.  Sorry for the delay.
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DunnoItAll

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #316 on: April 22, 2021, 10:02:19 am »
+3

I am so sorry it took this long, but work was a bear this week (still is!).  I managed to get some time to write up my thoughts. I truly enjoyed playing with each card and seeing each entrants' creation performing in actual game situations. If I get to do this again in the future, I know a lot more about how to budget my time in play-testing and theorizing.

Here's how I saw things (please keep in mind, this how I viewed things, and others may see things differently!):

Family Loyalists by Xen3k:

Both my opponent and I felt that this one needed an on-play effect. Delaying the $2 discount is a little unsatisfying and is surprisingly more awkward to plan around than having the discount on the current turn (which is compounded by having to choose the card(s) you are going to target a turn before you will try to buy them).

Moving the Kin markers felt forced and usually unnecessary, in addition to being awkward both in the game sense and physically. In the game sense, you have only one FL in play, you can't just leave your markers where they are, and if you have two in play, you can effectively leave them there but then you either must move both or neither. I think the card has potential, but the awkwardness overshadowed that during our play-testing.

Palazzo di Famiglia by emtzalex:

The Kin mechanic itself has a few intrinsic problems, for me, but the foremost of them showed itself in most of the designs we tested: that is, the strength of the card depends entirely too much on which cards are randomly selected to also be Kin cards in your kingdom. This card gives each new Kin card an intrinsic VP value which we both felt helped neutralize this problem to a degree. It definitely felt like it could easy be pretty strong, even for $6 (as it's essentially a limited Laboratory that is likely going to be worth at least 2VP - consider that Harem is a Silver with 2 VP tagged on to it, and that adds $3 in cost to that card). A good card, probably needs a couple of tweaks.

Family Reunion by mxdata:

Another Laboratory variant. This one is physically cumbersome, which was the first thing we noticed in playing, but not much more than many other cards. It did, however, noticeably slow down the game. Drawing more Family Reunions with this card is a feature, of course, but it definitely exacerbated the slowing down. I almost wonder if only the first FR played on a turn sifted for Kin cards and the others just plain old drew 2 cards if it would help. As is, this card is a shaky investment until you have a decent dive into the Kin piles in your deck.

The ability to sift for more FRs makes this card worth the extra $ over a Lab for sure, but the overall strength of the card, again, entirely depends on the value of those other 2 Kin cards. For the Kin mechanic to really work, I feel like this issue needs some mitigation.

Sepulchre by Timinou:

This one suffers from being terminal. When played, you may not have any means to play another Kin card, meaning the only way to fully utilize it is to trash itself, which is pretty limiting. The value of the random Kin cards plays a heavy role here, too. If you don't want to trash a card because it is useful to your deck, this makes Sepulchre less valuable, and likewise if you just don't want to buy or play the Kin card. I'm not worried about the single VP gain because 1) it doesn't seem like it would be very realistic for this strategy to compete with even Big Money and piling out Provinces, and 2) when playing a Sepulchre, you will want to trash something for the extra VP at least some portion of the time, which would then progress the game.  I think that aspect is fine, I just think it needs some means of getting the cards it needs to trash into play in games without Villages.

Kinslayer by Mahowrath:

This one was the most interesting to play with for sure. My main question is if +3 Cards, +1 Action, and +$2 is a little too much. My opponent focused on buying Labs and Wild Hunts (the other 2 Kin cards) and eeked out a win after trashing his last Lab on the last turn to give the last kick to his turn to buy 2 Provinces and a Duchy (to win by 3).  I tended to only use the Kinslayers to trash the other Kinslayers I had picked up. This leads me to believe it's not too strong, but man that just feels like a lot of reward. It makes me really pause to consider what it would've been like had the other Kin cards been something like Pearl Diver and Border Guard or something like that. Definitely a good card and good fun.

Collection by mathdude:

This one can definitely get out of hand. Generally speaking, you will want to take the bonuses in a certain order most of the time (ie, you might first want to take +1 Card, then next +$1 most turns), but you will surely want to switch that up from time to time. Tracking these things can easily get confusing, especially when you do it differently than you have. I think this is probably a little too cheap at $2, but again, a lot depends on what the other 2 Kin cards are.  This one is my favorite in terms of ideas, for sure.

Fratricide by johntgrizzz:

I missed this card entirely when looking through the thread for entries, so I'm thankful to Aquila for doing a quick write-up of all the entries. Without that, I wouldn't have noticed the omission.

This one is very strong for $4. The way this card is set up, if you can play this card as the last card out of your hand, you don't have to trash a card at all. Again, this is difficult enough to do, I don't think it sets up any game progression problems, but my balance sense says that this should be +2 VP for trashing Kin, for a total of 3 instead of +3 VP for a total of 4. The interaction with other Kin cards is minimal here, but effective.

My Finalists:
Palazzo di Famiglia
Kinslayer
Collection

My winner:
Kinslayer by Mahowrath
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Mahowrath

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #317 on: April 22, 2021, 03:20:34 pm »
+2

Thanks DunnoItAll!

As an aside; is there any interest to try to move this thread into a directory format as per a certain other competition? Might be more user friendly.

Otherwise, happy to make the next one on this thread tomorrow
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mathdude

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #318 on: April 22, 2021, 03:46:08 pm »
0

Thanks DunnoItAll!

As an aside; is there any interest to try to move this thread into a directory format as per a certain other competition? Might be more user friendly.

Otherwise, happy to make the next one on this thread tomorrow

In general, it's picking up enough traction for most contests that it might be a good idea to do that.

Alternatively, if there was a mod who could just update the OP and the main title of the thread once per week (when a new contest starts), it could be helpful to have a link in the OP to the start of each contest.
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Xen3k

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #319 on: April 22, 2021, 04:26:47 pm »
0

Congrats Mahowrath!

Family Loyalists by Xen3k:

Both my opponent and I felt that this one needed an on-play effect. Delaying the $2 discount is a little unsatisfying and is surprisingly more awkward to plan around than having the discount on the current turn (which is compounded by having to choose the card(s) you are going to target a turn before you will try to buy them).

Moving the Kin markers felt forced and usually unnecessary, in addition to being awkward both in the game sense and physically. In the game sense, you have only one FL in play, you can't just leave your markers where they are, and if you have two in play, you can effectively leave them there but then you either must move both or neither. I think the card has potential, but the awkwardness overshadowed that during our play-testing.

Good evaluation DunnoItAll. I appreciate you spent time actually playing with the card, I never really have the time or players to do this so it is very commendable that you do it. I figured the card would be pretty fiddley, and your choices for winner/runner ups was good.
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mathdude

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #320 on: April 22, 2021, 05:09:58 pm »
+1

Collection by mathdude:

This one can definitely get out of hand. Generally speaking, you will want to take the bonuses in a certain order most of the time (ie, you might first want to take +1 Card, then next +$1 most turns), but you will surely want to switch that up from time to time. Tracking these things can easily get confusing, especially when you do it differently than you have. I think this is probably a little too cheap at $2, but again, a lot depends on what the other 2 Kin cards are.  This one is my favorite in terms of ideas, for sure.

Thanks for the feedback.  If there was a tracking tool ("Collection mat" and associated markers?), similar to how Trade Route has its own tracking, and then probably also if I had it cost $3 or $4, I'm assuming it could have functioned a bit better.

If only judging was based purely based on "idea", rather than actual execution/balance!
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emtzalex

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #321 on: April 23, 2021, 01:58:24 am »
+2

Thanks for putting so much time/effort into the judging, DunnoItAll. Actually playing with the cards is really impressive. Thank you for the feedback. I have never been a huge fan of the "in games using this" mechanic,

I designed several cards before I came up the the Palazzo. I also struggled with the issue that which cards have the Kin markers drastically changes the power of the card. For example, I really struggled with how to price this:



On one hand, if the Kin cards are Baron and Talisman, it's essentially a cantrip and massively overpriced. On the other, if the Kin cards are Merchant and Caravan, it will often be a double-Lab, and is massively underpriced. Playing further with the Kins-in-play, I came up with this:



Using a Treasure for a while-in-play count has the advantage of being able to be played after (a) terminal Actions (even without a village or Villagers) and (b) Treasure Kingdom cards with a Kin marker. Ultimately I went with the Victory card that had +2 Cards, play a Kin, because (as DunnoItAll pointed out), the VP mechanic still creates the incentive to grab Kin cards (even if they cannot be played) and, at a minimum, it can chain itself ala Cultist.

I came up with one other regular Kin Kingdom card:



A disappearing Silver with +Buy and which discounts Kin cards, it's still highly dependent on what cards are getting discounted. If it's Fool's Gold, there's a lot of incentive to try to grab two of this and pile them out. If it's Transmute, maybe not so much (especially since you won't be getting a discount).

I also came up with a Kin - Way:


I kind of like this, as sifting (especially non-terminal sifting) is frequently useful. But if both the Kin markers ended up on Treasures, this would be substantially weakened.


All of this brings me back to scolapasta's early suggestion that each contest start with a discussion of the mechanic and how it works. It could also be useful to have a post-contest discussion (something that has happened before). On that note, I have a thought about the Kin mechanic, although I'm not sure if it would be an improvement. What if, instead of putting the Kin marker under random piles, the two piles to receive Kin markers are chosen by players at the beginning of the game.

In a two-player game, each player could just select a pile, going in turn order (this could slightly reduce the first-player-advantage, as the second player would be able to choose her pile in reaction to the first player's selection). In a game with 3+ players, each player could select a potential Kin card (again, going in turn order), then the two actual cards could be chosen using the randomizers. This would assure that, if either player was interested in playing the Kin card, at least one of the Kin piles would be useful (at least in a two-player game; in a three-player game, there would be an increased chance of a good card being chosen).


I also put together some Kin cards combined with some of the other fan mechanics we have dealt with.

Worshippers:

I recognize that Family Chapel is strictly better than Apse Chapel (well, technically Apse Chapel is better in the extremely limited situation when gaining it avoids trigger an opponent's Falconer).


Conditions:



Dawn:

(I couldn't decide which blend I preferred, so I made both; they're the same card)


Trade tokens:



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emtzalex

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #322 on: April 23, 2021, 10:20:48 am »
+2

Thanks DunnoItAll!

As an aside; is there any interest to try to move this thread into a directory format as per a certain other competition? Might be more user friendly.

Otherwise, happy to make the next one on this thread tomorrow

In general, it's picking up enough traction for most contests that it might be a good idea to do that.

Alternatively, if there was a mod who could just update the OP and the main title of the thread once per week (when a new contest starts), it could be helpful to have a link in the OP to the start of each contest.

In case scolapasta does not want to manage this, I created a separate thread which I am will update with a link to the current contests and an index and hall of fame. If scolapasta wants to do this in the OP, I will delete mine.
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LastFootnote

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #323 on: April 23, 2021, 01:32:54 pm »
+4

I'm seeing the Trade token cards a month too late. It's interesting to look at them. I'm thinking of finally getting back to designing fan cards myself. For what it's worth, I've been using "+1 Gem" and "You may spend a Gem" since Trade is an Event. Sort of a retheme. Anyway, I'm going to give my first impressions of these cards. Apologies if I'm dropping this smack in the middle of another week's contest.

Quote
Xen3k´s Trade Cutter
A well balanced card, but nothing too interesting. You can do more with the mechanic.

It's nice to have some simple cards like this. Maybe it would be more interesting in practice than in theory, but yeah, not a standout exciting card. I like that it works every third time. Maybe at that point it could give +3 Cards at end of turn instead.

Quote
spineflu´s Depot
This is extremely cool. With the trigger, I can imagine, that you can pull off some neat tricks. But even, if it wouldn't had this cool trigger, it would be a fun card.

Simple yet potentially exciting. Maybe too strong, but that's surely fixable if so. Definitely a cool card.

Quote
emtzalex´ Speculator
Very interesting card, even without the Trade tokens(which make the card even more interesting). However, this looks broken, especially when you draw more than 6 non-Treasure cards in your turn. More than +$6 is just too much.

There's two concepts here. There's the thing Speculator does, and then there's the play-it-again, a mechanic that Trade tokens are particularly well-suited for. My card Convoy uses the play-this-again mechanic. The current (untested) version is:

Quote
Convoy: Action, $4
Look at the top 3 cards of your deck and put 2 of them into your hand. You may spend a Gem to play this again.

When you gain this, +1 Gem.

Anyway, I like the main concept of your card, but I think it's too complex for adding the Trade token on top of it, and maybe could be simplified even beyond that.

Quote
MrHiTech´s Storehouse
A very interesting cellar variant. I think it´ll create some fun moments, when you have to guess, how many cards you have to draw, to get the needed. Also, its very nice for advanced players, since you have to know your deck well and have to think about stuff like triggering shuffles. I like it.

This is cool. I'm not sure if it might create too much analysis paralysis in practice. I'm also not sure how much it values Trade tokens relative to other cards. It's hard to judge without having played with it. Very cool idea, though.

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Aquila´s Yeoman
I like the mini  game, it really creates some tension. However this looks overpowered to me. if you don´t buy any, for the other player, this is as strong as  provinces, so you´re almost forced to gain this.

Hmm, well, it's hard to sell me on something with two dividing lines (not that you were trying to sell me on it, just saying). Also I just have this sinking feeling that it won't play nicely with other Trade token cards. Gaining a variable number of Trade tokens depending on what you have in play is cool and I've tried that on a few cards.

Quote
Something_Smart´s Foreign Trader/Goods
Really cool idea, which creates interesting choices. What is more important? That the other player can´t use the current Good? Or that I get the needed card? Should I use the Trade tokens now? Or do I hope, that I can reveal "Tea"? Unfortunately, I think the Goods are´nt well balanced.

This is an especially cool concept. I'm guessing if Donald X. were making it he wouldn't want to use Goods for only one card, but I mean it's just 10 extra cards for this card, same as Hermit/Madman or what-have-you. I think the actual effects would need a lot of testing and tweaking, but probably there's something workable here. Specifically, most effects cannot be e.g. "during your Action phase" without causing rules issues; they need a more specific time to trigger.

Quote
Timinou´s Muster
Wow, this looks fun. So every player can setup a huge turn twice in the game. It´s a really cool idea and I think, it works out as intended.

Neat idea. I'm all about the two-shots. I wonder if there's a way to shorten that text.

Quote
DunnoItAll´s Bargaining Chip/Leverage
I really like the idea of a Heirloom, that gives Trade tokens. I´m also pretty glad, that you removed the Cantrip version. My only problem with this card is, the trigger of the Heirloom. No other Heirloom card refers to its kingdom card. That isn't a real problem, but it just feels weird. I think, it´s just not fun, when you´re forced to buy an explicit card, to use a Heirloom.

I think I would try to simplify this. Perhaps Leverage doesn't have a way to directly gain or spend tokens and always puts itself on the Tavern mat. Then Bargaining Chip loses its on-gain, but allows you to call your Leverage to get a Trade token. Or something.

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X-tra´s Grand Ship
I like it. Compared to Royal carriage however, this seems to be too strong. I think, it will be really fun to replay an Action card 8 times, but its just too strong and too easy achieved. Yes, it has to collide with the right card, but that´s not enough compensation.

I tried a version of this, but thought that being able to play a card an arbitrary number of times would be too strong, so I capped it at 3. Your version is elegant if it works out, but I'm scared of e.g. Grand Ship/Bridge.

Quote
fika monster´s Governance
Hey, that´s a cool idea. The idea, that you can green earlier, to play Action cards twice is neat. However, I don´t think, you will gain 2 Estates, to replay an Action card. Maybe it would help, if you´d start with one Trade token already. Okay, this already has an use in the end, but that´s not half as interesting as in the beginning.

Definitely a neat idea, but it means there shouldn't be a way to get 2 Trade tokens by playing any Action card, or this could loop infinitely. In general I like it.

Quote
LibraryAdventurer´s Cairn
Okay, so this something between Cellar and Moat and VPs. I think the card is fine, but does´nt uses the Trade tokens in a too interesting way.

Hmm, I don't feel like this card is very cohesive. I'm not sure what being a Victory card adds to it.

Quote
silverspawn´s Cartell
So this is one of these "You win" cards. I like new win-conditions, but a simple "You win" is hard to implement. There are lots of ways to do it and this looks like one of the cleverer ones. I do´nt think, this is well balanced, but it just influences the game in a boring way. When you go for Cartell, you do´nt have any interesting choices, but just play Cartell as often as possible.

It's certainly a novel idea. Worth testing for sure. Possibly there's some magic number, 15 or otherwise, that makes this fair in most games.

Quote
NoMoreFun´s Toymaker
Another Workshop variant and also a cool one. Tis is a really interesting card, but unfortunately I do´nt see any reason, why you used Trade tokens and not the normal Journey token.

I like this one a lot. I might limit it to just one token on-gain (and maybe making it cheaper to compensate), but I'd be happy to try this version first.

Overall, I think Depot is a fine choice for first place. There's a lot of cool ideas here overall, though.
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Aquila

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #324 on: April 23, 2021, 02:35:23 pm »
0

I also struggled with the issue that which cards have the Kin markers drastically changes the power of the card.
In hindsight, so have I. Both Banner and Festival Grounds in the contest's introduction like the other Kins to be good in the game they're in, as have others. Most of the designs you posted also do. So this seems to illustrate that the design space for Kins is rather limited.

That said:
I also came up with a Kin - Way:


I kind of like this, as sifting (especially non-terminal sifting) is frequently useful. But if both the Kin markers ended up on Treasures, this would be substantially weakened.
Here's a neat space I haven't explored! Extra bonuses (or potentially nerfs) if the selected Actions use the Way. To reason simply, it likes the Kins to be bad, rather than good, so a different kind of interaction is created.

An idea I had following a similar premise:
Quote
Action Kin, $4 cost.
+1 Card
+1 Action
At Clean-up, if you have no Kins other than [this] in play, draw an extra card for your next hand.
A sort of cheap lab, but you have to choose between using them or the other Kins. Maybe the power level isn't quite there, but the premise I hope is.

All of this brings me back to scolapasta's early suggestion that each contest start with a discussion of the mechanic and how it works. It could also be useful to have a post-contest discussion (something that has happened before). On that note, I have a thought about the Kin mechanic, although I'm not sure if it would be an improvement. What if, instead of putting the Kin marker under random piles, the two piles to receive Kin markers are chosen by players at the beginning of the game.

In a two-player game, each player could just select a pile, going in turn order (this could slightly reduce the first-player-advantage, as the second player would be able to choose her pile in reaction to the first player's selection). In a game with 3+ players, each player could select a potential Kin card (again, going in turn order), then the two actual cards could be chosen using the randomizers. This would assure that, if either player was interested in playing the Kin card, at least one of the Kin piles would be useful (at least in a two-player game; in a three-player game, there would be an increased chance of a good card being chosen).
This would certainly help to not just select meaningful Kins, but turn a mechanic currently more suited to solitaire style games into an interactive one. I'll certainly explore this if I revisit Dynasties!

Thanks for these extra thoughts!
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