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Author Topic: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics  (Read 45836 times)

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mxdata

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Re: Contest #6: Spend, spend, spend!
« Reply #250 on: April 01, 2021, 07:24:06 pm »
0

Fan Card Mechanic Contest #6: Spend, spend, spend!

Alright, you've heard of -1 card tokens, you've heard of spending coin for cards, now get ready for spending Actions and Buys!
The theme for this week will be -1 Action and -1 Buy, up to you how you would like to implement it. Straight vanilla bonus or -1 token, you set the rules. You can even include spend for benefit. Be explicit about details. If vanilla, do you go negative at 0, interaction with villagers, etc. If tokens, do they work like the -1 card and coin token, when are they returned, etc.

Here are some implementations of the concept as examples by myself and others:

   

In my implementation in Steel Foundry for example, your Action count can go negative, and thus you'd need to spend 2 villagers to play another action card, but you are free to implement a "not-less-than-zero" approach. Stock exchange is another from my Industrialization fan expansion. Savings is an implementation by X-Tra. You can read the secret history for Workshop here to see an implementation of -1 Buy that Don X. considered. An example of a token version of the concept can be seen with Aquila's exhausted token here, which removes one Action from your pool immediately once you have a non-zero number available. You could alternatively have it instead ignore your next +Action, ala Snowy Village, your choice. 

I personally take a liking to well-chosen theme and card art, so card images would be greatly preferred, though of course not required. Feel free to include multiple cards to illustrate your concept further. The contest window will be closed April 8th at 8:00 AM PST, and I will attempt to have the judgement out by that day's end. Good luck and happy fan carding!

Question: Has there ever been a ruling on exactly when your Action count resets, whether it's at the end of Clean-up or at the start of your next turn?  There's a card with -1 Action that I'm considering that could be played as a reaction on another person's turn, so the count of Actions on other players' turns becomes very relevant here
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Gubump

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Re: Contest #6: Spend, spend, spend!
« Reply #251 on: April 01, 2021, 07:52:56 pm »
0

Fan Card Mechanic Contest #6: Spend, spend, spend!

Alright, you've heard of -1 card tokens, you've heard of spending coin for cards, now get ready for spending Actions and Buys!
The theme for this week will be -1 Action and -1 Buy, up to you how you would like to implement it. Straight vanilla bonus or -1 token, you set the rules. You can even include spend for benefit. Be explicit about details. If vanilla, do you go negative at 0, interaction with villagers, etc. If tokens, do they work like the -1 card and coin token, when are they returned, etc.

Here are some implementations of the concept as examples by myself and others:

   

In my implementation in Steel Foundry for example, your Action count can go negative, and thus you'd need to spend 2 villagers to play another action card, but you are free to implement a "not-less-than-zero" approach. Stock exchange is another from my Industrialization fan expansion. Savings is an implementation by X-Tra. You can read the secret history for Workshop here to see an implementation of -1 Buy that Don X. considered. An example of a token version of the concept can be seen with Aquila's exhausted token here, which removes one Action from your pool immediately once you have a non-zero number available. You could alternatively have it instead ignore your next +Action, ala Snowy Village, your choice. 

I personally take a liking to well-chosen theme and card art, so card images would be greatly preferred, though of course not required. Feel free to include multiple cards to illustrate your concept further. The contest window will be closed April 8th at 8:00 AM PST, and I will attempt to have the judgement out by that day's end. Good luck and happy fan carding!

Question: Has there ever been a ruling on exactly when your Action count resets, whether it's at the end of Clean-up or at the start of your next turn?  There's a card with -1 Action that I'm considering that could be played as a reaction on another person's turn, so the count of Actions on other players' turns becomes very relevant here

Caravan Guard shows that +1 Action has no effect outside of your turn, so I'd assume the same would be true of -1 Action.
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All of my fan card mockups are credited to Shard of Honor and his Dominion Card Image Generator (the new fork).
If you're having font issues with the generator, click this link and click on the button to request temporary access to the demo server that loads the font.

mxdata

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Re: Contest #6: Spend, spend, spend!
« Reply #252 on: April 01, 2021, 08:06:50 pm »
0

Fan Card Mechanic Contest #6: Spend, spend, spend!

Alright, you've heard of -1 card tokens, you've heard of spending coin for cards, now get ready for spending Actions and Buys!
The theme for this week will be -1 Action and -1 Buy, up to you how you would like to implement it. Straight vanilla bonus or -1 token, you set the rules. You can even include spend for benefit. Be explicit about details. If vanilla, do you go negative at 0, interaction with villagers, etc. If tokens, do they work like the -1 card and coin token, when are they returned, etc.

Here are some implementations of the concept as examples by myself and others:

   

In my implementation in Steel Foundry for example, your Action count can go negative, and thus you'd need to spend 2 villagers to play another action card, but you are free to implement a "not-less-than-zero" approach. Stock exchange is another from my Industrialization fan expansion. Savings is an implementation by X-Tra. You can read the secret history for Workshop here to see an implementation of -1 Buy that Don X. considered. An example of a token version of the concept can be seen with Aquila's exhausted token here, which removes one Action from your pool immediately once you have a non-zero number available. You could alternatively have it instead ignore your next +Action, ala Snowy Village, your choice. 

I personally take a liking to well-chosen theme and card art, so card images would be greatly preferred, though of course not required. Feel free to include multiple cards to illustrate your concept further. The contest window will be closed April 8th at 8:00 AM PST, and I will attempt to have the judgement out by that day's end. Good luck and happy fan carding!

Question: Has there ever been a ruling on exactly when your Action count resets, whether it's at the end of Clean-up or at the start of your next turn?  There's a card with -1 Action that I'm considering that could be played as a reaction on another person's turn, so the count of Actions on other players' turns becomes very relevant here

Caravan Guard shows that +1 Action has no effect outside of your turn, so I'd assume the same would be true of -1 Action.

True, but Caravan Guard explicitly states that +1 Action has no effect, so the question is, is that statement redundant, or is it necessary to prevent you from getting that +1 Action?
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mxdata

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Re: Contest #6: Spend, spend, spend!
« Reply #253 on: April 01, 2021, 08:17:04 pm »
0

Fan Card Mechanic Contest #6: Spend, spend, spend!

Alright, you've heard of -1 card tokens, you've heard of spending coin for cards, now get ready for spending Actions and Buys!
The theme for this week will be -1 Action and -1 Buy, up to you how you would like to implement it. Straight vanilla bonus or -1 token, you set the rules. You can even include spend for benefit. Be explicit about details. If vanilla, do you go negative at 0, interaction with villagers, etc. If tokens, do they work like the -1 card and coin token, when are they returned, etc.

Here are some implementations of the concept as examples by myself and others:

   

In my implementation in Steel Foundry for example, your Action count can go negative, and thus you'd need to spend 2 villagers to play another action card, but you are free to implement a "not-less-than-zero" approach. Stock exchange is another from my Industrialization fan expansion. Savings is an implementation by X-Tra. You can read the secret history for Workshop here to see an implementation of -1 Buy that Don X. considered. An example of a token version of the concept can be seen with Aquila's exhausted token here, which removes one Action from your pool immediately once you have a non-zero number available. You could alternatively have it instead ignore your next +Action, ala Snowy Village, your choice. 

I personally take a liking to well-chosen theme and card art, so card images would be greatly preferred, though of course not required. Feel free to include multiple cards to illustrate your concept further. The contest window will be closed April 8th at 8:00 AM PST, and I will attempt to have the judgement out by that day's end. Good luck and happy fan carding!

Question: Has there ever been a ruling on exactly when your Action count resets, whether it's at the end of Clean-up or at the start of your next turn?  There's a card with -1 Action that I'm considering that could be played as a reaction on another person's turn, so the count of Actions on other players' turns becomes very relevant here

Caravan Guard shows that +1 Action has no effect outside of your turn, so I'd assume the same would be true of -1 Action.

True, but Caravan Guard explicitly states that +1 Action has no effect, so the question is, is that statement redundant, or is it necessary to prevent you from getting that +1 Action?

Actually, I ended up changing how that card works (it's now a discard rather than play, so the reaction no longer involves any minus Actions) so that the question is no longer relevant to that card
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The Alchemist

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #254 on: April 01, 2021, 11:21:06 pm »
+1

In my version, I had actions reset at the start of your next turn to 1 regardless of how negative, and like caravan -1 Actions have no effect outside your turn.
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segura

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #255 on: April 02, 2021, 03:04:07 am »
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Actions are a resource in a Dominion that you can spend. It makes absolutely no sense to have negative Actions. You can only spend resources that you actually have.
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The Alchemist

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #256 on: April 02, 2021, 07:24:02 am »
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Actions are a resource in a Dominion that you can spend. It makes absolutely no sense to have negative Actions. You can only spend resources that you actually have.

And you're free to have your cards follow that rule if you wish. As of now, there is no ruling one way or another on whether Actions or Buys can go negative, so you can't really say whether it makes sense or not if there's no precedent. Actions are only a counter after all, and there's nothing inherent to them that demands non-negativity.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #257 on: April 02, 2021, 07:55:44 am »
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Actions are a resource in a Dominion that you can spend. It makes absolutely no sense to have negative Actions. You can only spend resources that you actually have.

And you're free to have your cards follow that rule if you wish. As of now, there is no ruling one way or another on whether Actions or Buys can go negative, so you can't really say whether it makes sense or not if there's no precedent. Actions are only a counter after all, and there's nothing inherent to them that demands non-negativity.
None of the 4 basic resources of the game can become negative. It is common-sensical, you can only spend stuff that you have.
Coins also cannot become negative, Debt is a totally different mechanism.
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Aquila

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #258 on: April 02, 2021, 08:59:00 am »
+1

So with Steel Foundry, you can always play it as the only Action each turn? Immediately the implication is that's crazy with big money, but the Smogs could help. It's as if there was a '(you can't go below 0)' just after the -1 Action.

I agree that -1 Action should be treated like the -Card and -$ token, so that there is always a cost to the extra power and only one can be taken to keep things in balance:


This is a State rather than a token; functionally identical, but with more room for text. In games with no sources of extra Actions, this carries over to next turn to take the starting Action away, so you normally can't do anything in your Action phase. This might be an awkward alternative setback to not having 2 available Actions.

My entry is:

Quote
Textile Mill - Action, $5+ cost.
+3 Cards
You may take Exhausted. If you do, +2 Cards.
-
When you buy this, you may overpay for it. +1 Villager per $1 overpaid.
Smithy you can choose to double play, with overpay for Villagers.
I'm normally hesitant about using internet illustrations, but this one I believe is safe to use because of its age.

If others want to use Exhausted or something similar, I don't mind at all.
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The Alchemist

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #259 on: April 02, 2021, 09:50:54 am »
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Actions are a resource in a Dominion that you can spend. It makes absolutely no sense to have negative Actions. You can only spend resources that you actually have.

And you're free to have your cards follow that rule if you wish. As of now, there is no ruling one way or another on whether Actions or Buys can go negative, so you can't really say whether it makes sense or not if there's no precedent. Actions are only a counter after all, and there's nothing inherent to them that demands non-negativity.
None of the 4 basic resources of the game can become negative. It is common-sensical, you can only spend stuff that you have.
Coins also cannot become negative, Debt is a totally different mechanism.

I'm not sure what your concern is, of course none of the 4 basic resources go negative in the base game, that's the entire point of fan mechanics. If it were already part of the game, then we wouldn't be discussing it here. Coins and the like cannot become negative because there are no cards with negative vanilla bonuses, that's the entire point of this contest. And regardless, the possibility of negative actions doesn't mean you can continue to use actions while negative to become even further negative. If you have 0 or less actions, you can't play any actions. Your statement "you can't spend what you don't have" isn't applicable here. None of these fan cards allow you to do that.
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silverspawn

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #260 on: April 02, 2021, 11:37:52 am »
+3



Orcs hate elves, so if you ally with Elves, Orcs flog to your enemies. Having an Orc may be better or worse than not having it, so the Elven Village just costs as much as a normal village. The Orc pile contains 20 cards.

mxdata

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #261 on: April 02, 2021, 11:44:16 am »
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Actions are a resource in a Dominion that you can spend. It makes absolutely no sense to have negative Actions. You can only spend resources that you actually have.

And you're free to have your cards follow that rule if you wish. As of now, there is no ruling one way or another on whether Actions or Buys can go negative, so you can't really say whether it makes sense or not if there's no precedent. Actions are only a counter after all, and there's nothing inherent to them that demands non-negativity.
None of the 4 basic resources of the game can become negative. It is common-sensical, you can only spend stuff that you have.
Coins also cannot become negative, Debt is a totally different mechanism.

I'm not sure what your concern is, of course none of the 4 basic resources go negative in the base game, that's the entire point of fan mechanics. If it were already part of the game, then we wouldn't be discussing it here. Coins and the like cannot become negative because there are no cards with negative vanilla bonuses, that's the entire point of this contest. And regardless, the possibility of negative actions doesn't mean you can continue to use actions while negative to become even further negative. If you have 0 or less actions, you can't play any actions. Your statement "you can't spend what you don't have" isn't applicable here. None of these fan cards allow you to do that.

Poor House has -$, and it has been established that you cannot go below $0 (even though it *could* make sense, since you can play other Action cards with +$ or Treasure cards), and cost-reduction likewise cannot go below $0, so there's already precedent for "no negative amounts"
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silverspawn

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #262 on: April 02, 2021, 01:46:29 pm »
+1

Dominion tries to be casual-friendly, and negative amounts are not. It depends on whether one wants to still be casual-friendly in this context.

mxdata

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #263 on: April 02, 2021, 02:19:35 pm »
0

Deleted this submission as I realized there were some issues with the cards as they stood.  New submission to come shortly
« Last Edit: April 02, 2021, 10:28:56 pm by mxdata »
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segura

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #264 on: April 02, 2021, 03:43:03 pm »
0

Actions are a resource in a Dominion that you can spend. It makes absolutely no sense to have negative Actions. You can only spend resources that you actually have.

And you're free to have your cards follow that rule if you wish. As of now, there is no ruling one way or another on whether Actions or Buys can go negative, so you can't really say whether it makes sense or not if there's no precedent. Actions are only a counter after all, and there's nothing inherent to them that demands non-negativity.
None of the 4 basic resources of the game can become negative. It is common-sensical, you can only spend stuff that you have.
Coins also cannot become negative, Debt is a totally different mechanism.

I'm not sure what your concern is, of course none of the 4 basic resources go negative in the base game, that's the entire point of fan mechanics. If it were already part of the game, then we wouldn't be discussing it here. Coins and the like cannot become negative because there are no cards with negative vanilla bonuses, that's the entire point of this contest. And regardless, the possibility of negative actions doesn't mean you can continue to use actions while negative to become even further negative. If you have 0 or less actions, you can't play any actions. Your statement "you can't spend what you don't have" isn't applicable here. None of these fan cards allow you to do that.
So your card implies that you can once go under zero with Actions but once you are in the negative realm you cannot play another card with -Actions.
Dude, that’s hyperunintuitive.

Spend X Actions is a fine mechanism. -X Actions with some weird „you can go once below zero but once you are you cannot play other -X Action cards“ rule is not.
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The Alchemist

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #265 on: April 02, 2021, 07:31:47 pm »
0

Actions are a resource in a Dominion that you can spend. It makes absolutely no sense to have negative Actions. You can only spend resources that you actually have.

And you're free to have your cards follow that rule if you wish. As of now, there is no ruling one way or another on whether Actions or Buys can go negative, so you can't really say whether it makes sense or not if there's no precedent. Actions are only a counter after all, and there's nothing inherent to them that demands non-negativity.
None of the 4 basic resources of the game can become negative. It is common-sensical, you can only spend stuff that you have.
Coins also cannot become negative, Debt is a totally different mechanism.

I'm not sure what your concern is, of course none of the 4 basic resources go negative in the base game, that's the entire point of fan mechanics. If it were already part of the game, then we wouldn't be discussing it here. Coins and the like cannot become negative because there are no cards with negative vanilla bonuses, that's the entire point of this contest. And regardless, the possibility of negative actions doesn't mean you can continue to use actions while negative to become even further negative. If you have 0 or less actions, you can't play any actions. Your statement "you can't spend what you don't have" isn't applicable here. None of these fan cards allow you to do that.
So your card implies that you can once go under zero with Actions but once you are in the negative realm you cannot play another card with -Actions.
Dude, that’s hyperunintuitive.

Spend X Actions is a fine mechanism. -X Actions with some weird „you can go once below zero but once you are you cannot play other -X Action cards“ rule is not.

Think about when you would go below zero. I never stated my card allows you to go below zero only once. The rules around my card were "Do what the card says. If you do not have 1 or more actions afterwards, you cannot play another card", just like any other card. If you play a -1 Action card, that means you had 1 action, and were thus allowed to play a card, now having 0, do what the card says, and now have -1. You cannot play another action. It's exactly the same as playing any other terminal. You are not "allowed to go below once and then not again", you are simply allowed to play any action card if you have 1 action available, and if you are at 0 you can't play an action card period. It would be less intuitive if you couldn't play a -1 Action card while having 1 action. And anyway, the only time it matters whether or not you have 0 or -1 is when it comes to how many villagers you need to get back to 1 action. Once again, you are free to implement it however you wish.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2021, 03:48:15 pm by The Alchemist »
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The Alchemist

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #266 on: April 02, 2021, 07:36:53 pm »
0

Actions are a resource in a Dominion that you can spend. It makes absolutely no sense to have negative Actions. You can only spend resources that you actually have.

And you're free to have your cards follow that rule if you wish. As of now, there is no ruling one way or another on whether Actions or Buys can go negative, so you can't really say whether it makes sense or not if there's no precedent. Actions are only a counter after all, and there's nothing inherent to them that demands non-negativity.
None of the 4 basic resources of the game can become negative. It is common-sensical, you can only spend stuff that you have.
Coins also cannot become negative, Debt is a totally different mechanism.

I'm not sure what your concern is, of course none of the 4 basic resources go negative in the base game, that's the entire point of fan mechanics. If it were already part of the game, then we wouldn't be discussing it here. Coins and the like cannot become negative because there are no cards with negative vanilla bonuses, that's the entire point of this contest. And regardless, the possibility of negative actions doesn't mean you can continue to use actions while negative to become even further negative. If you have 0 or less actions, you can't play any actions. Your statement "you can't spend what you don't have" isn't applicable here. None of these fan cards allow you to do that.

Poor House has -$, and it has been established that you cannot go below $0 (even though it *could* make sense, since you can play other Action cards with +$ or Treasure cards), and cost-reduction likewise cannot go below $0, so there's already precedent for "no negative amounts"

Those cards had to explicitly state "but not below zero". If it has to be stated, then it isn't obvious, implied, or necessarily true. That means it's up to the card creator to decide for themselves what the default behavior for their card will be.
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emtzalex

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #267 on: April 02, 2021, 07:56:41 pm »
0

I don't think -1 Action or -1 Buy are as inherently oppressive/difficult/out of character for Dominion as people are suggesting. Certain $0 Events (Alms, Advance, Delay, Quest) effectively provide a benefit for -1 Buy. I think the same is true about the possibility of going negative. After all, what is a -1 Coin token if not negative coins? 

That being said, in the form of an attack -1 Action or -1 Buy is a lot more oppressive than a -1 Coin or -1 Card token, since either one can in a lot of cases destroy an entire turn.

Actions are a resource in a Dominion that you can spend. It makes absolutely no sense to have negative Actions. You can only spend resources that you actually have.

And you're free to have your cards follow that rule if you wish. As of now, there is no ruling one way or another on whether Actions or Buys can go negative, so you can't really say whether it makes sense or not if there's no precedent. Actions are only a counter after all, and there's nothing inherent to them that demands non-negativity.
None of the 4 basic resources of the game can become negative. It is common-sensical, you can only spend stuff that you have.
Coins also cannot become negative, Debt is a totally different mechanism.

I'm not sure what your concern is, of course none of the 4 basic resources go negative in the base game, that's the entire point of fan mechanics. If it were already part of the game, then we wouldn't be discussing it here. Coins and the like cannot become negative because there are no cards with negative vanilla bonuses, that's the entire point of this contest. And regardless, the possibility of negative actions doesn't mean you can continue to use actions while negative to become even further negative. If you have 0 or less actions, you can't play any actions. Your statement "you can't spend what you don't have" isn't applicable here. None of these fan cards allow you to do that.
So your card implies that you can once go under zero with Actions but once you are in the negative realm you cannot play another card with -Actions.
Dude, that’s hyperunintuitive.

Spend X Actions is a fine mechanism. -X Actions with some weird „you can go once below zero but once you are you cannot play other -X Action cards“ rule is not.

Think about when you would go below zero. I never stated my card allows you to go below zero once. The rules around my card were "Do what the card says. If you do not have 1 or more actions afterwards, you cannot play another card", just like any other card. If you play a -1 Action card, that means you had 1 action, and were thus allowed to play a card, now having 0, do what the card says, and now have -1. You cannot play another action. It's exactly the same as playing any other terminal. You are not "allowed to go below once and then not again", you are simply allowed to play any action card if you have 1 action available, and if you are at 0 you can't play an action card period. It would be less intuitive if you couldn't play a -1 Action card while having 1 action. And anyway, the only time it matters whether or not you have 0 or -1 is when it comes to how many villagers you need to get back to 1 action. Once again, you are free to implement it however you wish.

I would point out that there is one other case in which the potential to go negative would matter, which is with Villa. If you had -1 Action and bought Villa, you would return to your Action phase but have 0 Actions and go right back to your buy phase (and unless you had an extra buy, you would either end the turn or go on to your Night phase).

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Thanks to Shard of Honor for his Extended Version of the Dominion Card Image Generator, which I use to mock up my fan cards, and to Violet CLM, who made the original.

mxdata

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #268 on: April 03, 2021, 01:28:56 am »
0



These three card(-shaped thing)s all allow you to spend an Action for some benefit

Quote
Drawbridge
Project
$6
At the start of your Buy phase, you may spend 1 Action for +1 Buy and cards costs 1 less for the remainder of your turn
A simple concept.  It amounts to having a Bridge that you play as your last Action.  It doesn't help with Action-phase Gainers (except in the case of cards like Villa or Cavalry that let you return to your Action phase), but it does make cards cheaper for buying, and also helps with Night-phase gainers

Quote
Legendary Hunter
Action
$9*
+5 Cards
-
When you buy this, you may spend any number of Actions to reduce its price by $1 per Action spent
In this case, Actions are not spent on-play but on-buy to reduce its cost.  It's like a Hunting Grounds with one more card (but no on-trash benefit), or a Royal Blacksmith without Copper discarding.  In a kingdom with lots of extra Actions, you can get the cost down quite a bit

Quote
Night Market
Night - Duration
$6
You may spend 1 Action for +1 Buy at the start of your next turn. If you have any unspent $, choose one: buy a card this turn or spend up to $4 for +$1 per $ spent at the start of your next turn
In this case, you spend an Action for benefit on your next turn.  It also lets you buy an extra card this turn, as a kind of last-minute buy phase (combined with Black Market, this means we can now buy cards in all three phases!), or to save up to $4 for your next turn.  This could've worked almost as well as a Treasure card, but I went with Night in part so that you can make the choice of an extra buy or saving coins after you've used your buys, and to make it un-Counterfeitable and un-Crownable.  Plus, next-turn effects feel to me like they belong to Action and Night, but not Buy.  It also has a nice effect in games with Priest and Night trashers - coins you gain from trashing with Priest in hand are available to Night Market.  The fact that it's not an Action card also has a nice synergy with Drawbridge.  Another synergy is with Innovation - you can take advantage of any +$ or +Actions gained from a bought card played with Innovation
« Last Edit: April 03, 2021, 01:38:35 am by mxdata »
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segura

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #269 on: April 03, 2021, 02:06:23 am »
0

Actions are a resource in a Dominion that you can spend. It makes absolutely no sense to have negative Actions. You can only spend resources that you actually have.

And you're free to have your cards follow that rule if you wish. As of now, there is no ruling one way or another on whether Actions or Buys can go negative, so you can't really say whether it makes sense or not if there's no precedent. Actions are only a counter after all, and there's nothing inherent to them that demands non-negativity.
None of the 4 basic resources of the game can become negative. It is common-sensical, you can only spend stuff that you have.
Coins also cannot become negative, Debt is a totally different mechanism.

I'm not sure what your concern is, of course none of the 4 basic resources go negative in the base game, that's the entire point of fan mechanics. If it were already part of the game, then we wouldn't be discussing it here. Coins and the like cannot become negative because there are no cards with negative vanilla bonuses, that's the entire point of this contest. And regardless, the possibility of negative actions doesn't mean you can continue to use actions while negative to become even further negative. If you have 0 or less actions, you can't play any actions. Your statement "you can't spend what you don't have" isn't applicable here. None of these fan cards allow you to do that.
So your card implies that you can once go under zero with Actions but once you are in the negative realm you cannot play another card with -Actions.
Dude, that’s hyperunintuitive.

Spend X Actions is a fine mechanism. -X Actions with some weird „you can go once below zero but once you are you cannot play other -X Action cards“ rule is not.

Think about when you would go below zero. I never stated my card allows you to go below zero once. The rules around my card were "Do what the card says. If you do not have 1 or more actions afterwards, you cannot play another card", just like any other card. If you play a -1 Action card, that means you had 1 action, and were thus allowed to play a card, now having 0, do what the card says, and now have -1. You cannot play another action. It's exactly the same as playing any other terminal. You are not "allowed to go below once and then not again", you are simply allowed to play any action card if you have 1 action available, and if you are at 0 you can't play an action card period. It would be less intuitive if you couldn't play a -1 Action card while having 1 action. And anyway, the only time it matters whether or not you have 0 or -1 is when it comes to how many villagers you need to get back to 1 action. Once again, you are free to implement it however you wish.
Dude, you explicitly said that Steel Foundry means that you can end up with -1 Action and you just said it again. So according to you you can most definitely go below zero with the Action counter.
My point is that this is a total mess rule-wise (gee, the very fact that we have this discussion shows this). It makes far more sense to implement it Storyteller-style as „spend an Action“ which means that you need two Actions to play Steel Foundry.

Spending resources is cool, it is a basic mechanism familiar to anybody who plays Euros. But being able to spend stuff that you don’t have, man, just no. There is no precedent for this in Dominion, it will lead to quite some confusion and it also makes the card itself behave very weird (no idea about why you sting to it, all it achieves is make the card better suited for money).
« Last Edit: April 03, 2021, 02:10:23 am by segura »
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The Alchemist

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #270 on: April 04, 2021, 04:47:15 pm »
+1

Actions are a resource in a Dominion that you can spend. It makes absolutely no sense to have negative Actions. You can only spend resources that you actually have.

And you're free to have your cards follow that rule if you wish. As of now, there is no ruling one way or another on whether Actions or Buys can go negative, so you can't really say whether it makes sense or not if there's no precedent. Actions are only a counter after all, and there's nothing inherent to them that demands non-negativity.
None of the 4 basic resources of the game can become negative. It is common-sensical, you can only spend stuff that you have.
Coins also cannot become negative, Debt is a totally different mechanism.

I'm not sure what your concern is, of course none of the 4 basic resources go negative in the base game, that's the entire point of fan mechanics. If it were already part of the game, then we wouldn't be discussing it here. Coins and the like cannot become negative because there are no cards with negative vanilla bonuses, that's the entire point of this contest. And regardless, the possibility of negative actions doesn't mean you can continue to use actions while negative to become even further negative. If you have 0 or less actions, you can't play any actions. Your statement "you can't spend what you don't have" isn't applicable here. None of these fan cards allow you to do that.
So your card implies that you can once go under zero with Actions but once you are in the negative realm you cannot play another card with -Actions.
Dude, that’s hyperunintuitive.

Spend X Actions is a fine mechanism. -X Actions with some weird „you can go once below zero but once you are you cannot play other -X Action cards“ rule is not.

Think about when you would go below zero. I never stated my card allows you to go below zero once. The rules around my card were "Do what the card says. If you do not have 1 or more actions afterwards, you cannot play another card", just like any other card. If you play a -1 Action card, that means you had 1 action, and were thus allowed to play a card, now having 0, do what the card says, and now have -1. You cannot play another action. It's exactly the same as playing any other terminal. You are not "allowed to go below once and then not again", you are simply allowed to play any action card if you have 1 action available, and if you are at 0 you can't play an action card period. It would be less intuitive if you couldn't play a -1 Action card while having 1 action. And anyway, the only time it matters whether or not you have 0 or -1 is when it comes to how many villagers you need to get back to 1 action. Once again, you are free to implement it however you wish.
Dude, you explicitly said that Steel Foundry means that you can end up with -1 Action and you just said it again. So according to you you can most definitely go below zero with the Action counter.
My point is that this is a total mess rule-wise (gee, the very fact that we have this discussion shows this). It makes far more sense to implement it Storyteller-style as „spend an Action“ which means that you need two Actions to play Steel Foundry.

Spending resources is cool, it is a basic mechanism familiar to anybody who plays Euros. But being able to spend stuff that you don’t have, man, just no. There is no precedent for this in Dominion, it will lead to quite some confusion and it also makes the card itself behave very weird (no idea about why you sting to it, all it achieves is make the card better suited for money).

Yes, Steel Foundry does make you end with -1 Action if its the only card you play. What I was countering is your supposition that it only allows you to go negative *once* as if that were a special rule, which you were implying. Why would it make more sense for some Actions to take 2 to play but most to take 1? There's no precedent for that either. And anyway, why are you using precedent to justify what does or doesn't make sense on a competition that's literally about fan mechanics. There's no precedent for anything we do here, by definition. Being able to go negative on a resource is not so outlandish a concept that it doesn't appear in other games. And once again, you aren't spending what you don't have, you are simply following the cards instructions. If you look at my original post, I also have Stock Exchange, which *does* ask you spend Actions, and for *that* card, you can only spend Actions that you have. I agree that for a story-teller type card, you shouldn't be able to spend more than you have. But -1 Action as a vanilla bonus isn't spending anything, it's updating a counter. That's why it doesn't say "Spend an action, you may go negative."

You keep interpreting it as something that it is not, and that's fine, you are free to make your own card that does work the way you want it to. That's the point of this contest, I never said you have to treat -1 Actions the way I did, nor that I was biased to my own implementation. If you submit your story-teller style smithy variant, I will gladly judge it on its merits and not consider the way you decided to implement -1 Actions as any way inferior to my own. At the end of the day, this is a fan card, and a fan card mechanic, and like the English language, their our know rules.
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mxdata

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #271 on: April 04, 2021, 07:03:08 pm »
0

Actions are a resource in a Dominion that you can spend. It makes absolutely no sense to have negative Actions. You can only spend resources that you actually have.

And you're free to have your cards follow that rule if you wish. As of now, there is no ruling one way or another on whether Actions or Buys can go negative, so you can't really say whether it makes sense or not if there's no precedent. Actions are only a counter after all, and there's nothing inherent to them that demands non-negativity.
None of the 4 basic resources of the game can become negative. It is common-sensical, you can only spend stuff that you have.
Coins also cannot become negative, Debt is a totally different mechanism.

I'm not sure what your concern is, of course none of the 4 basic resources go negative in the base game, that's the entire point of fan mechanics. If it were already part of the game, then we wouldn't be discussing it here. Coins and the like cannot become negative because there are no cards with negative vanilla bonuses, that's the entire point of this contest. And regardless, the possibility of negative actions doesn't mean you can continue to use actions while negative to become even further negative. If you have 0 or less actions, you can't play any actions. Your statement "you can't spend what you don't have" isn't applicable here. None of these fan cards allow you to do that.
So your card implies that you can once go under zero with Actions but once you are in the negative realm you cannot play another card with -Actions.
Dude, that’s hyperunintuitive.

Spend X Actions is a fine mechanism. -X Actions with some weird „you can go once below zero but once you are you cannot play other -X Action cards“ rule is not.

Think about when you would go below zero. I never stated my card allows you to go below zero once. The rules around my card were "Do what the card says. If you do not have 1 or more actions afterwards, you cannot play another card", just like any other card. If you play a -1 Action card, that means you had 1 action, and were thus allowed to play a card, now having 0, do what the card says, and now have -1. You cannot play another action. It's exactly the same as playing any other terminal. You are not "allowed to go below once and then not again", you are simply allowed to play any action card if you have 1 action available, and if you are at 0 you can't play an action card period. It would be less intuitive if you couldn't play a -1 Action card while having 1 action. And anyway, the only time it matters whether or not you have 0 or -1 is when it comes to how many villagers you need to get back to 1 action. Once again, you are free to implement it however you wish.
Dude, you explicitly said that Steel Foundry means that you can end up with -1 Action and you just said it again. So according to you you can most definitely go below zero with the Action counter.
My point is that this is a total mess rule-wise (gee, the very fact that we have this discussion shows this). It makes far more sense to implement it Storyteller-style as „spend an Action“ which means that you need two Actions to play Steel Foundry.

Spending resources is cool, it is a basic mechanism familiar to anybody who plays Euros. But being able to spend stuff that you don’t have, man, just no. There is no precedent for this in Dominion, it will lead to quite some confusion and it also makes the card itself behave very weird (no idea about why you sting to it, all it achieves is make the card better suited for money).

Yes, Steel Foundry does make you end with -1 Action if its the only card you play. What I was countering is your supposition that it only allows you to go negative *once* as if that were a special rule, which you were implying. Why would it make more sense for some Actions to take 2 to play but most to take 1? There's no precedent for that either. And anyway, why are you using precedent to justify what does or doesn't make sense on a competition that's literally about fan mechanics. There's no precedent for anything we do here, by definition. Being able to go negative on a resource is not so outlandish a concept that it doesn't appear in other games. And once again, you aren't spending what you don't have, you are simply following the cards instructions. If you look at my original post, I also have Stock Exchange, which *does* ask you spend Actions, and for *that* card, you can only spend Actions that you have. I agree that for a story-teller type card, you shouldn't be able to spend more than you have. But -1 Action as a vanilla bonus isn't spending anything, it's updating a counter. That's why it doesn't say "Spend an action, you may go negative."

You keep interpreting it as something that it is not, and that's fine, you are free to make your own card that does work the way you want it to. That's the point of this contest, I never said you have to treat -1 Actions the way I did, nor that I was biased to my own implementation. If you submit your story-teller style smithy variant, I will gladly judge it on its merits and not consider the way you decided to implement -1 Actions as any way inferior to my own. At the end of the day, this is a fan card, and a fan card mechanic, and like the English language, their our know rules.

I would also like to point out that however you choose to implement -Actions, you'll need to consider how they would work with cards that can cause you to play another card, like Vassal.  If you go with the "you can not play a card if it would make you go negative", then what happens when Vassal turns over a -Action card and you have no Actions remaining?  Does it treat it like a non-Action?  Does it go into play but do nothing (because you don't have the Action needed for it)?  Or do you make a special rule for those types of situations and say you can play it if you're forced to play it, but you still only have 0 Actions not -1?  (And likewise, if you Throned it with only one Action remaining, does it only play it once, because after the first play you're at 0?)
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Xen3k

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #272 on: April 04, 2021, 07:45:39 pm »
+1



Quote
Faustian Dealings
Action - Treasure
+$1
If it is your Action phase +1 Buy. If you have any actions remaining, -1 Action, +1 Buy, and +$1.
If it is your Buy phase and you have more than 1 Buy remaining, -1 Buy and +$2.

A weird quasi Fools Gold. It eats Actions for Buys and then uses the excess Buys to act like a Gold. Not sure about the power level on this. I had a version that was $5 and always could be played as a Silver, but thought this version was more interesting.
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The Alchemist

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #273 on: April 04, 2021, 10:09:01 pm »
+1

I would also like to point out that however you choose to implement -Actions, you'll need to consider how they would work with cards that can cause you to play another card, like Vassal.  If you go with the "you can not play a card if it would make you go negative", then what happens when Vassal turns over a -Action card and you have no Actions remaining?  Does it treat it like a non-Action?  Does it go into play but do nothing (because you don't have the Action needed for it)?  Or do you make a special rule for those types of situations and say you can play it if you're forced to play it, but you still only have 0 Actions not -1?  (And likewise, if you Throned it with only one Action remaining, does it only play it once, because after the first play you're at 0?)

I am not sure if you are replying to me or not, but that's the reason why I explicitly did *not* have the rule "you can't play a card if it will make you go negative". With my card, you can go negative at any time if the cards tell you to, it's just, as usual, you can only play a new Action card if you have 1 or more action available. If you vassal a Steel forge, you spend one to play the vassal, the forge is played, and now you have -1. If you king court a steel forge, you end up with -3 Actions.

With Segura's intended version, you either just always remain at 0 after any number of plays, still allowing you play the card via vassal or throne room as many times as required (Which I disliked due to significantly hindering the impact of the -1 in these situations), or you have a "You may spend an Action to..." clause as he suggested, which would mean if you tried to vassal or throne room without any actions to spend, any text after that clause would just simply not occur, but you would still treat it like any other action card in play.

All 3 of these implementations of -1 Action are perfectly valid, and all can lead to interesting cards and effects, so I would not discourage anyone from trying any of these ones laid out.
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Gubump

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #274 on: April 05, 2021, 02:14:49 am »
0

Actions are a resource in a Dominion that you can spend. It makes absolutely no sense to have negative Actions. You can only spend resources that you actually have.

And you're free to have your cards follow that rule if you wish. As of now, there is no ruling one way or another on whether Actions or Buys can go negative, so you can't really say whether it makes sense or not if there's no precedent. Actions are only a counter after all, and there's nothing inherent to them that demands non-negativity.
None of the 4 basic resources of the game can become negative. It is common-sensical, you can only spend stuff that you have.
Coins also cannot become negative, Debt is a totally different mechanism.

I'm not sure what your concern is, of course none of the 4 basic resources go negative in the base game, that's the entire point of fan mechanics. If it were already part of the game, then we wouldn't be discussing it here. Coins and the like cannot become negative because there are no cards with negative vanilla bonuses, that's the entire point of this contest. And regardless, the possibility of negative actions doesn't mean you can continue to use actions while negative to become even further negative. If you have 0 or less actions, you can't play any actions. Your statement "you can't spend what you don't have" isn't applicable here. None of these fan cards allow you to do that.
So your card implies that you can once go under zero with Actions but once you are in the negative realm you cannot play another card with -Actions.
Dude, that’s hyperunintuitive.

Spend X Actions is a fine mechanism. -X Actions with some weird „you can go once below zero but once you are you cannot play other -X Action cards“ rule is not.

Think about when you would go below zero. I never stated my card allows you to go below zero once. The rules around my card were "Do what the card says. If you do not have 1 or more actions afterwards, you cannot play another card", just like any other card. If you play a -1 Action card, that means you had 1 action, and were thus allowed to play a card, now having 0, do what the card says, and now have -1. You cannot play another action. It's exactly the same as playing any other terminal. You are not "allowed to go below once and then not again", you are simply allowed to play any action card if you have 1 action available, and if you are at 0 you can't play an action card period. It would be less intuitive if you couldn't play a -1 Action card while having 1 action. And anyway, the only time it matters whether or not you have 0 or -1 is when it comes to how many villagers you need to get back to 1 action. Once again, you are free to implement it however you wish.
Dude, you explicitly said that Steel Foundry means that you can end up with -1 Action and you just said it again. So according to you you can most definitely go below zero with the Action counter.
My point is that this is a total mess rule-wise (gee, the very fact that we have this discussion shows this). It makes far more sense to implement it Storyteller-style as „spend an Action“ which means that you need two Actions to play Steel Foundry.

Spending resources is cool, it is a basic mechanism familiar to anybody who plays Euros. But being able to spend stuff that you don’t have, man, just no. There is no precedent for this in Dominion, it will lead to quite some confusion and it also makes the card itself behave very weird (no idea about why you sting to it, all it achieves is make the card better suited for money).

Yes, Steel Foundry does make you end with -1 Action if its the only card you play. What I was countering is your supposition that it only allows you to go negative *once* as if that were a special rule, which you were implying. Why would it make more sense for some Actions to take 2 to play but most to take 1? There's no precedent for that either. And anyway, why are you using precedent to justify what does or doesn't make sense on a competition that's literally about fan mechanics. There's no precedent for anything we do here, by definition. Being able to go negative on a resource is not so outlandish a concept that it doesn't appear in other games. And once again, you aren't spending what you don't have, you are simply following the cards instructions. If you look at my original post, I also have Stock Exchange, which *does* ask you spend Actions, and for *that* card, you can only spend Actions that you have. I agree that for a story-teller type card, you shouldn't be able to spend more than you have. But -1 Action as a vanilla bonus isn't spending anything, it's updating a counter. That's why it doesn't say "Spend an action, you may go negative."

You keep interpreting it as something that it is not, and that's fine, you are free to make your own card that does work the way you want it to. That's the point of this contest, I never said you have to treat -1 Actions the way I did, nor that I was biased to my own implementation. If you submit your story-teller style smithy variant, I will gladly judge it on its merits and not consider the way you decided to implement -1 Actions as any way inferior to my own. At the end of the day, this is a fan card, and a fan card mechanic, and like the English language, their our know rules.

While I mostly agree with you, I would like to point out that Poor House gives - and cannot go negative, which makes it somewhat unclear just by looking at the card whether you can go negative on Actions or not (which usually doesn't matter; I believe Villagers and CotR are the only cases where -1 vs 0 Actions makes a difference). I would therefore recommend specifying on the card itself: "-1 Action (you can go below 0)."

Also, one rules question I just thought of: What happens if you have negative Actions and Diadem? Does Diadem's extra effect give -? Or does Diadem still give total? And if it loses because of KC/TRing Steel Foundries, can you go negative simply because neither specifies that you can't go below ? And if so, what happens with Poor House? If you play Poor House when you're at - and Poor House wouldn't give net +, would it still raise you to because it does specify that you can't go below ? And does it make it so that you can't go below for the rest of your turn, or just for its own effect?
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