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Author Topic: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics  (Read 25452 times)

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Timinou

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #50 on: February 08, 2021, 09:05:02 am »
0

Is Heretic a bit weak for $5?  It's almost like handing out a delayed -1 Card token, since players can trash the Curse at the end of the turn that they draw it.  Even though the attack can stack unlike something like Relic, Heretic still hands out Worshippers even once the Curse pile runs out.
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silverspawn

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #51 on: February 08, 2021, 09:38:29 am »
+1

Agreed, but delayed -1 Card token on top of 3 cards seems decent.
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Xen3k

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #52 on: February 08, 2021, 10:03:24 am »
+1



(I know 'gains' is not the classically correct word, but it's simplest in this case and seems pretty unambiguous.)

This is interestingly similar to handing out a Snow (from the previous weekly design challenge) instead of a Curse and worshipper. The main difference is that Snow does not deplete a pile and does not provide a benefit after the Curses are gone.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2021, 10:04:26 am by Xen3k »
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mathdude

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #53 on: February 08, 2021, 10:39:34 am »
0


Quote
Eternal Sacrifice
Type: Action
Cost: $3
+$2
You may trash up to 2 Cards.  If you do, +1 Worshipper.

Updated to:

Quote
Eternal Sacrifice
Type: Action
Cost: $4
+$2
You may trash up to 2 cards from your hand.  If you trash at least one, +1 Worshipper

It almost seems too simple, but sometimes those end up being really good cards.  It's a terminal 3-cost silver.  But if you trash 1 or 2 cards, you get the ability to trash future cards too.  There shouldn't be a problem with people wanting to open double Eternal Sacrifice - if you trash too much before you get silver or other coin, it will stunt your deck growth too much - besides, buying just one, you have the ability to trash 2 cards with it (hopefully 2 estates), plus another card after.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2021, 01:15:23 pm by mathdude »
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Timinou

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #54 on: February 08, 2021, 10:42:44 am »
+1



(I know 'gains' is not the classically correct word, but it's simplest in this case and seems pretty unambiguous.)

This is interestingly similar to handing out a Snow (from the previous weekly design challenge) instead of a Curse and worshipper. The main difference is that Snow does not deplete a pile and does not provide a benefit after the Curses are gone.

Generally speaking, I guess the benefit of Worshippers should wane over the course of the game, so that by the time Curses run out, additional Worshippers become less useful.  That of course can change if there are other types of junkers in the Kingdom, or cards like Flag Bearer.   
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X-tra

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #55 on: February 08, 2021, 10:48:29 am »
+1


Quote
Eternal Sacrifice
Type: Action
Cost: $3
+$2
You may trash up to 2 Cards.  If you do, +1 Worshipper.

It almost seems too simple, but sometimes those end up being really good cards.  It's a terminal 3-cost silver.  But if you trash 1 or 2 cards, you get the ability to trash future cards too.  There shouldn't be a problem with people wanting to open double Eternal Sacrifice - if you trash too much before you get silver or other coin, it will stunt your deck growth too much - besides, buying just one, you have the ability to trash 2 cards with it (hopefully 2 estates), plus another card after.

You need to mention where the cards are trashed from. I suspect it's from your hand. In this case, it would need to say: "You may trash up to 2 Cards from your hand."
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Timinou

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #56 on: February 08, 2021, 10:54:21 am »
+1


Quote
Eternal Sacrifice
Type: Action
Cost: $3
+$2
You may trash up to 2 Cards.  If you do, +1 Worshipper.

It almost seems too simple, but sometimes those end up being really good cards.  It's a terminal 3-cost silver.  But if you trash 1 or 2 cards, you get the ability to trash future cards too.  There shouldn't be a problem with people wanting to open double Eternal Sacrifice - if you trash too much before you get silver or other coin, it will stunt your deck growth too much - besides, buying just one, you have the ability to trash 2 cards with it (hopefully 2 estates), plus another card after.

This seems really good for $3.  Opening double Eternal Sacrifice isn't really an issue, since the card itself gives you economy.  You wouldn't really need Silver.

Trashing up to 2 cards includes trashing 0.  So would you get +1 Worshipper regardless of whether or not you trashed anything? 
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silverspawn

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #57 on: February 08, 2021, 11:28:53 am »
+1

A card that gives two options of Steward at once for the same cost is most certainly busted, even if it misses the +2 Cards option.
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Xen3k

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #58 on: February 08, 2021, 12:07:20 pm »
0



(I know 'gains' is not the classically correct word, but it's simplest in this case and seems pretty unambiguous.)

This is interestingly similar to handing out a Snow (from the previous weekly design challenge) instead of a Curse and worshipper. The main difference is that Snow does not deplete a pile and does not provide a benefit after the Curses are gone.

Generally speaking, I guess the benefit of Worshippers should wane over the course of the game, so that by the time Curses run out, additional Worshippers become less useful.  That of course can change if there are other types of junkers in the Kingdom, or cards like Flag Bearer.
Worshippers are really good up until when you have your "perfect" deck. I agree their usefulness does drop off, but by that point the game should be at the end game.
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segura

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #59 on: February 08, 2021, 12:41:20 pm »
+1

I like Heretic but isn’t it nearly always weaker than Old Witch? The only situation that comes to mind in which trashing the Curse immediately is better than getting a Worshipper is when a handsize Attack occurs after the junking.
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silverspawn

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #60 on: February 08, 2021, 12:52:27 pm »
+1

Or when you play a card that draws you a new hand, like Minion or Scholar or Way of the Mole. But you're right that it looks weak next to OW.
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Gubump

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #61 on: February 08, 2021, 12:56:17 pm »
+1



(I know 'gains' is not the classically correct word, but it's simplest in this case and seems pretty unambiguous.)

This is very close to strictly worse than Old Witch, and by a huge margin. If your opponents have a Curse in hand, they can use the Worshipper you gave them to trash that Curse on their turn, which is effectively very close to the same downside as Old Witch, except that you don't have to have the Curse in hand at the time the Heretic is played. "Each other player gets +1 Worshipper" is almost strictly worse than "each other player may trash a card from their hand," which is strictly worse than "each other player may trash a Curse from their hand."
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BBobb

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #62 on: February 08, 2021, 12:57:45 pm »
0

Well, I said I'd participate. So here's my attempt as well:


I would change it to an on-gain trigger since Donald X. is moving from on-buy to on-gain.
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Hand - King's Court, Ruined Village, Estate, Copper, Possession
Turn -
BBobb plays King's Court
… and plays a Ruined Village.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined Village again.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined village a third time.
… … getting +1 Action.
BBobb plays a Copper.
BBobb buys a Poor House.
(BBobb draws: 2 King's Courts and 3 Possessions)
BBobb=GOD

mathdude

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #63 on: February 08, 2021, 01:13:24 pm »
0


Quote
Eternal Sacrifice
Type: Action
Cost: $3
+$2
You may trash up to 2 Cards.  If you do, +1 Worshipper.

It almost seems too simple, but sometimes those end up being really good cards.  It's a terminal 3-cost silver.  But if you trash 1 or 2 cards, you get the ability to trash future cards too.  There shouldn't be a problem with people wanting to open double Eternal Sacrifice - if you trash too much before you get silver or other coin, it will stunt your deck growth too much - besides, buying just one, you have the ability to trash 2 cards with it (hopefully 2 estates), plus another card after.

This seems really good for $3.  Opening double Eternal Sacrifice isn't really an issue, since the card itself gives you economy.  You wouldn't really need Silver.

Trashing up to 2 cards includes trashing 0.  So would you get +1 Worshipper regardless of whether or not you trashed anything?
Thanks for the feedback.  I'm adding "if you trashed at least one" (similar to Bat).

A card that gives two options of Steward at once for the same cost is most certainly busted, even if it misses the +2 Cards option.
I missed the comparison to Steward - and yes, I barely use the +2 Cards option on that, so this is almost strictly better.  I'm changing to $4 cost - it also fixes the ability to open double Eternal Sacrifice.


Quote
Eternal Sacrifice
Type: Action
Cost: $4
+$2
You may trash up to 2 cards from your hand.  If you trash at least one, +1 Worshipper
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silverspawn

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #64 on: February 08, 2021, 01:18:42 pm »
0

I would change it to an on-gain trigger since Donald X. is moving from on-buy to on-gain.

Doesn't that just apply to cases where they are similar -- i.e., primarily to cases where a card just does something when it's bought/gained?

Here, the card cares about other cards being gained or bought, in which case it makes a large difference.

"Each other player gets +1 Worshipper" is almost strictly worse than "each other player may trash a card from their hand,"

I agree with the bigger point, but not with this part. You're using 'worse' as 'the bigger downside', i.e., 'the greater help for your opponent'. But trashing a card from your hand right now is often more useful than getting +1 Worshipper, and it may actually be more useful on average. Any draw-to-x effect, any 'discard your hand a and draw' effect, and menagerie would much rather trash immediately.
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Gubump

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #65 on: February 08, 2021, 01:27:16 pm »
0

I would change it to an on-gain trigger since Donald X. is moving from on-buy to on-gain.

Doesn't that just apply to cases where they are similar -- i.e., primarily to cases where a card just does something when it's bought/gained?

Here, the card cares about other cards being gained or bought, in which case it makes a large difference.

"Each other player gets +1 Worshipper" is almost strictly worse than "each other player may trash a card from their hand,"

I agree with the bigger point, but not with this part. You're using 'worse' as 'the bigger downside', i.e., 'the greater help for your opponent'. But trashing a card from your hand right now is often more useful than getting +1 Worshipper, and it may actually be more useful on average. Any draw-to-x effect, any 'discard your hand a and draw' effect, and menagerie would much rather trash immediately.

Those examples are why I said "almost." But +1 Worshipper guarantees that you're able to trash the exact card you want to trash, whereas trashing immediately does not. And that upside is present in 100% of games with Worshippers, unlike draw-to-x, discard-your-hand-and-draw, etc. And if you happen to have good cards in hand, +1 Worshipper allows you to trash bad cards later, whereas "you may trash a card from your hand" only allows you to trash immediately or not at all (again, an always present difference). Flexibility is huge, and Worshippers' benefits over immediate trashing are always present instead of only sometimes present like it's drawbacks.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2021, 01:33:40 pm by Gubump »
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If you're having font issues with the generator, click this link and click on the button to request temporary access to the demo server that loads the font.

silverspawn

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #66 on: February 08, 2021, 01:52:48 pm »
0

It is always vs. sometimes, but it's always a little vs. sometimes a lot
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BBobb

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #67 on: February 08, 2021, 03:16:23 pm »
0

I would change it to an on-gain trigger since Donald X. is moving from on-buy to on-gain.

Doesn't that just apply to cases where they are similar -- i.e., primarily to cases where a card just does something when it's bought/gained?

Here, the card cares about other cards being gained or bought, in which case it makes a large difference.
Here, let's look at when Buy/when gain triggers in the newest expansion, Menagerie:

When gain effects: Camel Train, Sleigh, Sheepdog, Cavalry, Hostelry, Livery, Way of the Seal

When Buy effects:

Also,
Would you have made Holstery an overpay card if you could have?
No, because I no longer like doing when-buy triggers. The buy/gain distinction confuses too many people.
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Hand - King's Court, Ruined Village, Estate, Copper, Possession
Turn -
BBobb plays King's Court
… and plays a Ruined Village.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined Village again.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined village a third time.
… … getting +1 Action.
BBobb plays a Copper.
BBobb buys a Poor House.
(BBobb draws: 2 King's Courts and 3 Possessions)
BBobb=GOD

Timinou

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #68 on: February 08, 2021, 03:40:29 pm »
+1

I would change it to an on-gain trigger since Donald X. is moving from on-buy to on-gain.

Doesn't that just apply to cases where they are similar -- i.e., primarily to cases where a card just does something when it's bought/gained?

Here, the card cares about other cards being gained or bought, in which case it makes a large difference.
Here, let's look at when Buy/when gain triggers in the newest expansion, Menagerie:

When gain effects: Camel Train, Sleigh, Sheepdog, Cavalry, Hostelry, Livery, Way of the Seal

When Buy effects:

Also,
Would you have made Holstery an overpay card if you could have?
No, because I no longer like doing when-buy triggers. The buy/gain distinction confuses too many people.

My view on this is that for fan cards, it's fine to do either on-buy or on-gain triggers.  There are times when one is a better choice for a card than the other. 

In the case of Offering, I think it becomes much less balanced with an on-gain trigger.
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silverspawn

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #69 on: February 08, 2021, 03:45:23 pm »
+1

All cards which are not busted with on-gain, and for most of them it clearly makes more sense.

The list isn't nonzero evidence, but the the idea that we should dramatically raise the card's powerlevel to adhere to the principle is too crazy imo. If anything, it suggests that cards that require on-buy triggers shouldn't be done. You could redesign the card. Or do give it on-gain, but only if you think it's okay if it gets much stronger.
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segura

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #70 on: February 08, 2021, 04:16:32 pm »
+2

I would change it to an on-gain trigger since Donald X. is moving from on-buy to on-gain.

Doesn't that just apply to cases where they are similar -- i.e., primarily to cases where a card just does something when it's bought/gained?

Here, the card cares about other cards being gained or bought, in which case it makes a large difference.
Here, let's look at when Buy/when gain triggers in the newest expansion, Menagerie:

When gain effects: Camel Train, Sleigh, Sheepdog, Cavalry, Hostelry, Livery, Way of the Seal

When Buy effects:

Also,
Would you have made Holstery an overpay card if you could have?
No, because I no longer like doing when-buy triggers. The buy/gain distinction confuses too many people.
I totally disagree. We do design fan cards here, we are pretty familiar with the game and thus also deeply aware of the difference between gain and buy.
DXV disliking on Buy triggers has more to do with keeping the game simple rule-wise for casual players than anything else. This is a noble goal but utterly irrelevant for us Dominion geeks here.
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X-tra

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #71 on: February 08, 2021, 04:17:29 pm »
+1

Yeah, not changing to on-gain for Offering. It has the potential to explode too much already. And there's the matter of having a hard-to-track effect. How many cards did you gain this turn? How much does that offer you now? I like the simpler on-buy approach better. Offering offers (lol) a +Buy to tie-in with that concept, so it wouldn't be, in my opinion, as confusing as Donald makes it out to be.

Speaking of which, Donald also said that Haggler once triggered on-gain. But it was too crazy and made it on-buy. He hasn't changed that at all during Hinterlands' revision, proving that such cards are okay to be in the game anyway.
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spineflu

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #72 on: February 08, 2021, 04:20:55 pm »
+1

I would change it to an on-gain trigger since Donald X. is moving from on-buy to on-gain.

Doesn't that just apply to cases where they are similar -- i.e., primarily to cases where a card just does something when it's bought/gained?

Here, the card cares about other cards being gained or bought, in which case it makes a large difference.
Here, let's look at when Buy/when gain triggers in the newest expansion, Menagerie:

When gain effects: Camel Train, Sleigh, Sheepdog, Cavalry, Hostelry, Livery, Way of the Seal

When Buy effects:

Also,
Would you have made Holstery an overpay card if you could have?
No, because I no longer like doing when-buy triggers. The buy/gain distinction confuses too many people.
I totally disagree. We do design fan cards here, we are pretty familiar with the game and thus also deeply aware of the difference between gain and buy.
DXV disliking on Buy triggers has more to do with keeping the game simple rule-wise for casual players than anything else. This is a noble goal but utterly irrelevant for us Dominion geeks here.
big agree here. dxv saying he's not going to do overpay because it's too wordy for casual players does not mean I'm never going to touch the mechanic again; if anything, the opposite - that means the rest of the domain of overpay is ours to play around with and we should see what we can do with it (likewise, on-buy).
« Last Edit: February 08, 2021, 04:25:23 pm by spineflu »
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segura

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #73 on: February 08, 2021, 04:25:36 pm »
+1

I actually think that some of the recent changes sacrificed balance for simplicity. Livery is a neat example for a card that would arguably be more balanced if it were worded like it Coffers mirror image Merchant Guild: triggering on buy and featuring the old „while this is in play“ wording“ to be non-Throne-able.
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silverspawn

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #74 on: February 08, 2021, 04:42:55 pm »
0

I agree except that balance isn't a coherent concept so it's totally unclear whether Livery triggering on-gain is good or bad.
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