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Author Topic: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics  (Read 20741 times)

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spineflu

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #150 on: March 05, 2021, 11:43:18 am »
+1


Oops, yeah its supposed to say "non-dawn"
This is what happens when you rush the text of a card in 5 minutes
This should specify "from your hand".
and should probably specify Night, Action, or Treasure, although being able to trash Curses + Estates via Bonfire might be interesting.

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #151 on: March 05, 2021, 05:30:04 pm »
+2

There were 12 total submissions.  4 of them want to use the rule where only 1 Dawn card can be used per turn (or per Dawn phase, I guess... in case there were a card that would let you go back to your Dawn phase).  7 want to use unlimited Dawn cards per turn.  1 didn't specify.

Based on discussion in thread, I will probably end up allowing Dawn phase to play multiple Dawn cards.  I haven't decided yet whether to include an option of setting aside or top-decking Dawn cards during Clean-up phase (I will probably have to play-test my expansion once it's somewhat complete), though I'm leaning towards not allowing that.  I recognize that makes the game a bit swingy, but I think properly designed cards can account for that to some extent.  I don't believe my preference for unlimited cards per turn affected my judgement (even though only 1 one-per-turn card ended up in my top 5) - I think it just helped show how hard it would be to design balanced cards that aren't too swingy with the one-per-turn option.

So let's get this judging underway:
(I added card images for the few that didn't have an image, just for consistency)




Quote
(unlimited Dawn cards)
Cottage - $4
Dawn-Action
Choose one: +1 Action and put this onto your deck; or +2 Cards.


X-tra's Cottage

This is a village of sorts, in the Dawn phase.  But as has been highlighted since your original post, it appears isn't not as good as you originally intended, though if you can stack multiples in a hand, it still does have some benefit.  On its own, it appears very weak to me, and could definitely be worth $3.  It's only when stacked that it gets decent.

But then when we switch to the Action phase, it is almost worthless - it either replaces itself with a new card, or it's a simple +2 Cards (which could be okay if you stacked multiple Cottages in your Dawn phase, but still is rather weak).  I like that you've incorporated a way to have it not be a fully dead Dawn card (as if it were a straight Dawn, not Dawn-Action), but it doesn't seem like there's enough there.

I think with a few tweaks, this could be a fun card, but it's not quite there yet.



Quote
(one card per Dawn phase)
Gambling Hall - $4
Dawn
Reveal your hand.  Name a card you did not reveal any copies of.  The first time you play the named card this turn, trash this.  If you do, +9VP


Gubump's Gambling Hall

This just seems either extremely overpowered or very swingy to me.  It's effectively an Alt-VP card without being a Victory card.  However, the +9VP is huge - it's a Province and Dutchy combined (or just about a Colony), but once it hits, it leaves no dead card in your deck.  I'd probably just buy as many of these as I could, with a couple draw cards (like Smithy), and then Treasure cards.

So that brings me to a few issues I see with this card... as currently stated, if I drew a hand of Gambling Hall, Smithy, [coppers and estates], I just say "silver", hope to draw one, and can guarantee I'll be able to play it.  Is the intention that you can only say an Action card?  Or Action or Night?  If you can say Treasure cards, then the +9VP needs to significantly be reduced.

But if you can't say Treasure cards, then Gambling Hall could be very difficult to activate in some kingdoms.  You need either cantrips (and a lot of luck) or village/smithy-type combos.  And then it's very swingy as to when/if they will work.

I like the overall idea of the card, but it needs some details sorted out, in my opinion.  (I may use some modification of it in my expansion, though I will probably allow unlimited Dawn cards, so I will really need to sort out if/how this can work).



Quote
(unlimited Dawn cards)
Teapot - $5
Dawn-Treasure
+1 Buy
If it's your Dawn phase, then for the rest of the turn, when you play a Treasure, +$1.  Otherwise, +$2


Aquila's Teapot

I like this idea.  (I actually have a card with a concept like this already in my expansion-in-progress).  I do like the synergy between multiple Teapots - if you get them in your starting hand, you have to decide how many to play in the Dawn phase, and if one or more might be more worthwhile in the Buy phase.

It could probably work as an Action-Treasure card (instead of Dawn-Treasure), giving it +1 Action.  But then it would end up a little more powerful than what you've designed.  I like it, and will plan to play-test it in the future (checking cost and whether the +1 Buy is needed).



Quote
(one card per Dawn phase)
Ocelot - $4
Dawn-Night
If it's your Night phase, trash a card you have in play.  Otherwise, trash a card from your hand, then +2 Cards.


emtzalex's Ocelot

I think this card is well-balanced, between the Dawn and Night abilities.  I'm not sure where it sits on cost, but $4 is probably right.  Keeping it with the one-card-per-Dawn-phase is definitely important, otherwise it's too strong of a filtering card.  If I need an extra trashing card in my expansion, I may come back to this idea (though I'm probably not including Night cards, so it will need a little modification - don't worry, that doesn't affect my judging of your card though!)



Quote
(unlimited Dawn cards)
Rooster - $3
Dawn
Trash up to 2 cards from your hand.  If any cost more than $0, +1 Villager.  If you didn't trash any Estates or Coppers, at the end of your Dawn phase draw until you have 5 cards in hand.


Xen3k's Rooster

I think you've got a very well designed card here.  It allows for early-game play (even opening purchases, possibly 2 of them though that may be a bit weak), and it has benefits later in the game as well (trashing mid-range cards that are no longer useful and curses).  It seems a bit strong that you can play this card, trash a curse (or two), and then draw 2 (or 3) new cards to start your Action phase, though maybe that was your intention.  It also lets you play itself, then just draw a new card, which is sort of boring.  But overall, it's a clever use of trashing in the Dawn phase.



Quote
(unlimited Dawn cards)
Provincial House of Pancakes - $3
Dawn-Reaction
If you played this from your hand, +1 Card, +1 Buy.  When you play an Action card that gives +$, +$1.
When you discard this other than from play, you may set it aside.  At the start of your next turn, play it.


spineflu's Provincial House of Pancakes

I like the way you've accounted for drawing PHOP "dead" in your turn, and as an added benefit, it can also work well against handsize reduction attacks and even some filtering-type cards.  I feel like the card is fairly weak in many kingdoms though, as there are not always decent Action cards with +$ that you'd want to include in your deck.

On the other hand, it would be too powerful if it switched to "when you play a treasure card, +$1" or something like that.  (Obviously a cost increase would be in order, but then it's also a completely different card).  I'm not sure where I sit on this card currently.  I like parts of it, but other parts I'm not sure about.  so it's probably going to end up in the middle of the pack.



Quote
(unlimited Dawn cards)
(unknown) - $5
Dawn-Action
If this is your Dawn phase, +1 Card, +1 Villager.  Otherwise, you may remove all your Villagers for +2 Cards each.  Return to your Dawn phase.
{clarification: you always start your Action phase with one action, so when you return to your Dawn phase no action can be preserved(except villagers)}


Nobody's (unknown)

With Dawn cards inherently giving you +1 Action, they lend very easily to making Village variants.  And this is the 2nd of 3 submissions in this contest (or 3rd of 4 if you count Rooster, which becomes a village variant too if you trash the right card).  I like that this card is only a Village in the Dawn phase, and has a completely different purpose in your Action phase - it makes use of those +Villagers with setting up a potential large hand.

It looks like there could be choices given to this card (either the option to do +Card +Villager *or* remove all Villagers for +2 Cards each... regardless of whether you're in your Dawn or Action phase, where it's just weaker in the Action phase, as well as a choice of discarding only some Villagers).  However, I think it's intentional the way you have designed it, and I think it works better that way.  It might be too powerful, even at $6 cost if it had one or both of those choices.

I don't think I agree with your interpretation of starting your Action phase with exactly 1 Action (though the start of your turn and start of Action phase have pretty much been the same thing in Dominion so far... well, at least one after the other and you can only "return to your Action phase", never "return to the start of your Action phase").  Since I'm adding the Dawn phase in my expansion, I will need to clarify this, and I intend to have the "start of turn" give you 1 Action (and 1 Buy), and if you return to Dawn phase at any point (at least one or two of my cards already do that), you would not lose any Actions you still have, nor would you get a new +1 Action when you start your Action phase.  However, regardless of whether the game is played with your interpretation or mine, I think this card still works.

Overall, I like the balance, variety, and simplicity in the card.  I just wish I was including Villagers in my expansion, because this card just wouldn't work the same without them!



Quote
(one card per Dawn phase)
Meditation - $5
Dawn
You may play an Action card from your hand three times.


NoMoreFun's Meditation

This is a plain and simple King's Court variant.  It costs $2 less and can only be used in your Dawn phase, with cards that are drawn into your starting hand.  I think it ends up a bit swingy this way, but cards like King's Court always are (this is just a bit worse).  I'm not overly excited by seeing this card, but I'm also not ready to just toss the idea aside.  I think this lands middle-of-the-road as well.



Quote
(one or unlimited?  not sure)
Moths - $2
Dawn-Action
Trash a card from your hand.  If it was a Treasure, +1 Card per $ it would have given if you played it.
Otherwise, gain a silver.


LibraryAdventurer's Moths

There is definitely something missing in this card's design.  Can it be played in both the Dawn or Action phase, with exactly the same results (other than being dead in the Action phase)?  Or should it only be a Dawn card?  I think it's a very weak trasher (as a baseline, I can trash a copper for no benefit, or trash a silver for 2 cards or a gold for 3 cards... sometimes kingdom-treasures may be slightly better and other times slightly worse).  But those +Cards (for losing silver or gold) don't seem very worthwhile, except maybe in the last time through your deck in the game.

The alternative, a forced trash to gain a silver, just doesn't seem like a fun card to me, even at only $2 cost.  Maybe it doesn't match my playstyle, but I'm not thrilled by it.  There's also the issue of wording/clarity, in the "it would have given if you played it".  Maybe letting it work like Storyteller, actually playing the card, trashing it, then giving a choice of spending any number of coins for +Cards could make it a bit more exciting?



Quote
(unlimited Dawn cards)
Morning Village - $4
Dawn-Action
+1 Card.  If it is your Dawn phase, +1 Villager.  Otherwise, +2 Actions.


alion8me's Morning Village

Here is our final Village variant.  It is a very logical, very simple Village that makes appropriate use of the Dawn phase, and gives a decent benefit of playing in the Dawn phase instead of in the Action phase, justifying the extra cost (compared to Village).  But even in this simplicity, I really like it.  If I was using Villagers in my expansion, I would likely add this card to it exactly as it's currently designed.  I have no complaints.



Quote
(unlimited Dawn cards)
Maid - $3
Dawn
Look at the top 5 cards of your deck.  Put them anywhere in your deck.


Commodore Chuckles's Maid

This is like a Night Watchman, and carries the same cost.  Multiples can be played for additional benefit.  However, since this lets you put the cards anywhere in your deck (planning your next turn, and spreading out the Maids for multiple future turns), I would possibly say this is stronger, and should therefore cost more.  However, the fact that you can't discard Victory cards like Night Watchman probably justifies keeping this at only $3, and it being a dead card if drawn during your turn definitely makes this card a bit weaker.

I do like how simple it is, and that it works well to stack multiples.  It effectively uses filtering (though without discarding) using the Dawn phase.  It looks like a great card for me to add into my expansion!



Quote
(one card per Dawn phase)
Ancient Throne - $3
Dawn
You may play a Non-Dawn card from your hand twice.


fika monster's Ancient Throne

I think this card needs some clarity.  Are we allowed to play Treasure or Night cards?  If not, it's just a weak Throne Room, which is why it costs $3 instead of $4 (just like the Meditation card above, being a weak King's Court).  I think it's way too strong allowing you to play a Treasure twice (then it's like Crown, and would need to cost $4).  But if it only plays Actions, then it's a bit boring.


This took a lot longer than I thought!  And it is really hard to pick a winner.  Within the top 5 or 6, they are all so good.  But I have to pick.

So here are the runners up...



Third runner up is:  Xen3k's Rooster

Second runner up is:  Aquila's Teapot

First runner up is:  Nobody's (unknown)


(in reality, any of these three probably could have won for me on a different day!)



And the winner is:  Commodore Chuckles's Maid
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emtzalex

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #152 on: March 05, 2021, 06:15:57 pm »
+2

Thanks for the feedback. This caught my interest more than I originally expected, and I ended up thinking a lot about it and designing a number of cards. Here is the result: some of my thoughts on the mechanic, as well as the cards I have come up with. As elsewhere, I made these cards more as examples to illustrate my thoughts than as finished cards, so I have not given much thought to cost/balance/playability (except to the extent those are what I am thinking about).

By their nature, Dawn cards immediately draw comparison to Night cards. The concept is similar, adding a new phase and proving a set of cards to be played during that phase (which is also a time of day).

The biggest design issue with Night cards is that when they are played, vanilla bonuses (+Actions, +Cards, +Buys, +$; Nocturn didn't use Coffers/Villagers mats or VP tokens) are all but useless. You can't play Action cards, making +Actions useless, and you can't buy cards, so +Buys and +$ are no good. +Cards could, in theory, draw other Nights that you could play, but given the fact that (1) they would draw every other kind of card dead, and (2) when randomized with multiple sets, there's a strong likelihood of only having one Night, that doesn't work in practice.



Dawn cards are (not surprisingly), the opposite. Vanilla bonuses are always useful, as every other part of the turn is ahead of you. One thing they have in common with Night cards is that they do not spend an Action, so they are never terminal, and each Action given is a bonus:


(This was my first idea; lots of Dawn cards are going to be about waking people up, and to me that functions as an extra Action. the Rooster does nothing else, but self-Butchers when trashed. Xen3k's Rooster is a much better card.)



The big design challenge with Dawn cards is that if they are not in your opening hand. I think this is potentially a huge issue. The reason adding +1 Action to Moat while taking away its reaction increases its price by $3 (a huge jump, especially going from $2 to $5) while doing the same to Market Square only increases it by $1 (with $3 to $4 being possibly the least significant $1 increase of any price) is that the two cards you get from Moat, if Action cards, are drawn dead (without a villager/Villager), but the two cards you get from Laboratory are not. The Dawn cards from either Moat or Laboratory are drawn dead, and since you can't go back and change the price of those cards, Dawn cards (it seems to me) have the potential to be really unbalanced/hard to price/play, or possibly disruptive to the existing balances that exist in the game.



The easy answer is, price Dawn cards accordingly, and there's not nothing to that. Take, for example, this card, which does exactly what Festival does, but only if it's in the hand that you initially draw, otherwise it does nothing.



This works in theory, but what if you are able to draw cards during/before your Dawn phase? For example, what about this?



On it's own, a non-terminal +3 Cards that has to be played at the start of your turn might actually be somewhat balanced at $4, since it is hard to build an engine around a card that has to be in your starting hand. The problem, of course, is that it doesn't really have to be in your starting hand. If your PotD draws another PotD, it is still your Dawn phase, and you can chain them. Suddenly, you can fill your hand with non-terminal Actions (preferably disappearing money) and treasures, and play all of them.



This is why I initially was supportive of one Dawn card per turn. I felt it would allow them to be more powerful without the risk of chaining a bunch of them for too much power. I've become convinced that this is probably not the best solution. As Aquila pointed out, this probably ends up worsening the problem, because if you only have 1 copy of a Dawn card then your really need to get it in to your starting hand. One solution is to have little-no-drawing among Dawn cards (a solution I don't love). A solution I like better is to make it so the Dawn cards either (1) won't be drawn during the Action phase, or (2) are not useless if they are.



One way to do this is to combine an on-Buy topdecking with a one-shot effect, making something like an Event-Duration:



(This is apparently an actual job people used to have, presumably before alarm clocks.) The card continues the theme of waking people up, but frankly, I kind of hate it. That said, topdecking is a promising mechanic, as it can (if timed correctly), be used to put a Dawn into a starting hand from which it can be played.



Another option (which a lot of people in the contest figured out) is to have Dawn cards be multiple types. Again, there is a good comparison with Night cards. Of the 15 official Night cards (13 Kingdom, 2 non-Supply), 7 are Night-Durations (including Ghost), 1 is Action-Night, and only 7 (fewer than half the total) are plain Night cards (including Bat). Of the 6 Night-Duration Kingdom cards, 4 give a vanilla bonus at the start of the next turn (alleviating that design challenge). Combining Dawn with other types can open up a lot of possibilities, and there are a lot of options.



One choice (which I went for with my submission), is to create a Dawn-Night.



In terms of flavor/theme, a good fit for these are crepuscular animals--that is, animals primarily active during twilight (dawn and dusk), as opposed to those which are nocturnal (active at night) or diurnal (active during the day). There are plenty of official cards that are animals to use for guidance/inspiration, and the Wikipedia article in the link has a long list of crepuscular animals. They can do similar things that vary slightly by time of day:





Another solid option is Dawn-Reaction. There are two obvious (imo) ways to use this. The reaction can provide an alternative use for the card...



...or topdeck the Dawn card to be used the following turn.



Or, it could let the player choose between those two.



Another approach (which spineflu's card uses) is to have the reaction play the Dawn at the start of the next turn. Personally, I don't love that, because I do feel that even with helpful Reactions, Dawns are still somewhat harder to play, so their effect should be slightly overpowered for their cost, while cards that can be played when they are discarded are slightly easier to play and therefore end up being underpowered at their cost (e.g. Village Green). (I note that spineflu addresses this by giving a bonus for playing the card from hand).



One type which I think has a wider array of design possibilities when combined with Dawn cards than with Night is Action (as multiple submissions recognized). When these cards are played as an Action card it uses an Action, but if played as a Dawn or Night it doesn't. The one official card (Werewolf) takes advantage of this by being a terminal draw, with a Night card that lets copies otherwise drawn dead be used (albeit for a relatively swingy Hex giving).

The interesting thing about Dawn-Action (or Action-Dawn) cards is that they don't necessarily need language that distinguishes a Dawn phase play from an Action phase play. They could have the same text for both, but because playing it as a Dawn does not cost an Action, how it functions can be radically differently (see the above discussion comparing Moat and Laboratory) depending on when it is played. This distinction can turn terminal Actions into cantrips/disappearing money/non-terminal drawing...

         

...or turn cantrips/disappearing money into villages.

   

While I'm sure there are good designs that specify different actions during Dawn and Action phases (including Nobody and alion8me's submissions), I think the potential for elegance/simplicity with these is hard to beat.



(As an aside, while I don't especially love the regular Dawn cards in terms of appearance, these Night-split half Dawn cards--Dawn-Duration and Dawn-Night [with pink at top and bottom] and the Dawn-Action [with pink in the instruction box]--are some of my favorite cards aesthetically).



Another option (used by Aquila), is to do a Dawn - Treasure (here I like the look of the half-and-half split better):

   

The concept no doubt has potential, but I think the overlap with the Action phase is much more obvious and has a more promise.



I came up with a Dawn-Reserve:



As I've explained elsewhere, I'm interested in the idea of a daytaler and think it has potential to make a great card or mechanic. This isn't it. I think this is overpriced at $2, and maybe even at $1. I haven't thought about the implications of a Kingdom-card that costs $0. This one is probably not worth doing any more with.



I also made a Dawn-Victory:



I think it's kind of nice (although I don't like the color combo either way). I think there is potential to the combination as it seems considerably more palatable to have a Victory card (even if it's a hybrid) that is frequently drawn dead.



Ultimately, I think the mechanic has a ton of promise and many possibilities. I am now inclined to have the rule allow multiple Dawns per turn, and have a card balance like Night, with fewer than half the cards being of just that type (and maybe an even lower percentage here). Even with plain Dawn cards, there is almost always a way to find the balance you need:


(This might not be it).



And just in case anyone was wondering:

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spineflu

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #153 on: March 05, 2021, 06:28:18 pm »
+1

I gave my thoughts on the mechanic earlier in the thread:
- bonus points may be given if you help sway my decision to either have Dawn cards be 1-per-turn, or unlimited-per-turn (if I really like your card, but it would only work 1 of these ways).
Let me make the argument in favor of unlimited, like Night cards; this is also the argument behind my card in general.
You've got a pile of Dawn cards, 10 deep, and they're good. You want the entire pile in your hand. Hands are only 5 cards; if that Dawn card doesn't at the very least replace itself, you're in trouble.
If you can only play one of them AND they don't replace themselves (+1 Card when played from the hand), collision of 3+ Dawn cards is the equivalent of getting hit with a Militia (you're down two cards for that turn).
It needs to replace itself when played from the hand, and to justify them being a pile, they need to be non-terminal.

On top of this, if there's no "set aside-to-play-next-turn" mechanism, running into them midway through your Action phase means you've junked yourself, which either means the effect of them needs to be minimal (to not give lucky draws the game), or Big (to risk junking yourself). The former, why would you buy it? The latter, I don't know that that amount of variance is conducive to Dominion as a game - if you want a random winner, play the coin flip game. 

The only way this card type justifies its existence is as minigames - if it just gives vanilla bonuses unconditionally, why isn't it an action card? or treasure? or whatever. It should give a small task you need to complete to get a reward.

and these are the other ones (minigames, the lot of them) I came up with:


Statue has some wording issues, especially with cards like Border Guard or Warehouse that let you shuffle a lot in a turn. Saber-Rattle was almost my entry but with no attack cards it would've been a dead pile - not ideal (although guardian is pretty much that in no attack games). As you can see, most of them adhered pretty much to the "no drawing this dead" paradigm I used on PHOP. I think PHOP could be an absolute monster in games where you draw your deck - you only need one payload card, a Messenger or w/e, to trigger a whole bunch of them. Doesn't even have to be a good payload card - Oasis would probably enable it very well, or Vault/Storeroom.

It was also pointed out in the discord that these are basically also Night-Duration cards. Again, probably worth examining whether "pure" Dawn type cards need to exist (although emtzalex makes some interesting points with the dual type cards he posted.)
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 06:32:50 pm by spineflu »
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fika monster

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #154 on: March 05, 2021, 07:41:33 pm »
+1

well judged.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #155 on: March 05, 2021, 09:37:26 pm »
0

Thanks for the feedback. This caught my interest more than I originally expected, and I ended up thinking a lot about it and designing a number of cards. Here is the result: some of my thoughts on the mechanic, as well as the cards I have come up with.

--(I snipped the rest, but there was a lot of good discussion in there!)--

Thanks for a very detailed follow-up post, emtzalex... you've given me even more to think about (and a lot more card options to consider!)  Your Ocelot just missed the runner up spots (it was in there at 3rd runner up for a while, but then got pushed down one more spot).  I do think your Barn Owl or Ferret would have gotten into the finals though, as I like them both more than the Ocelot.

For the reaction on your Communal Hearth, I think that would work better as a Dawn-Treasure card, where the reaction would be replaced with "If it's your Buy phase, +$2" (and the upper part would be "If it's your Dawn phase" or put below and just say "Otherwise").  You could even keep the +Buy universal in both phases.

I really like the Morning Muster - it's well-themed with the Dawn, and the interaction between its Dawn Play ability and its Reaction ability is a good design.  This card may have had a shot at winning the contest!  I also like the Reaction for Sunrise Village, and may end up using it for a Dawn card (though not likely a Village).

For your Dawn-Action cards, I like the Plough and Call to Prayer.  I may use those or slight variations on them (now I'm starting to think I've got too many Dawn cards ending up in my expansion!  I've already got 9 pre-established based on a secondary mechanic I'm using, which pairs well with the new Dawn phase, so I can't add too many more, unless I knock that 9 down to 6 or 7).  Muster does look like it filters too much though, compared to existing cards.  Maybe just putting the rest back on the deck?  Or look at less and choose to topdeck or discard them (all the same spot maybe, or give a choice)?

Also, I see you commented about Dawn-Action or Action-Dawn.  I thought about that a bit.  Generally, card types are listed in the order they would happen in turn, so Dawn-Action makes sense.  On the other hand, I believe Action has always come first on every multi-type card that has Action in it (partly because nothing has ever come before Actions in your turn, I suspect).  I decided based on how the split-colour looked on it, and the pink on top was definitely better, in my opinion.  Although I do like your Night-split colours too, so I'll consider that before releasing my set.

For both Dawn-Treasure cards, I think either could have made the runner-up list.  Postal Cart looks a little weak in the Buy phase for costing $4 (except where you've been able to trash all/most coppers), though that does put the priority on playing it as a Dawn, not a Treasure, so maybe it's okay.

And your Morning Glory Garden looks good too.  A secondary theme in my expansion is a lot of cards with at least two Types, and I don't think I have Dawn-Victory yet (you're right, the colours look odd together).  Since the Dawn cards tend to be less swingy with another Type, they just fit in well with this secondary theme.  I may take that card, but let you exchange it for a Duchy instead of +2VP... we'll see.

Finally, the Promise of a New Day.  I like the "End your Dawn Phase", as a way to balance an extra strong, cheaper Dawn card.  You're right, the one you posted might not be the right one.  But I like the concept.  It is swingy, and obviously you wouldn't want to buy more than 1 (or maybe 2 in a larger deck), but it's worth considering a little more.

It was also pointed out in the discord that these are basically also Night-Duration cards. Again, probably worth examining whether "pure" Dawn type cards need to exist (although emtzalex makes some interesting points with the dual type cards he posted.)

The cards you've posted, allowing you to basically set them aside from your hand during Clean-up and play at the start of next turn, are definitely as close to Night-Duration cards as you can get.  As discussed right after the contest opened, with the 2 other examples of Morning-type cards, maybe top-decking the cards (in their arguments, as a rule for Dawn cards... though I like the idea better just as a Reaction ability, in place of the one you've used) would be more appropriate - it still lets you play them next turn, but it makes them a bit weaker and less like Night-Duration, as they now take up a spot in your next starting hand.

well judged.

Thanks.  As results were coming in, I didn't think it would be too bad.  But in the end, it sure took a lot of effort to try to judge appropriately and give feedback on a card type I've never played with actual cards (though my mind has been playing these cards for a month now as I work on my expansion!)  And as I said, there were at least 5 or 6 that I found very hard to distinguish between for the top few spots.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #156 on: March 05, 2021, 11:52:21 pm »
+1

Oh wow, thank you mathdude! I was not expecting to win this. Thank you for being generous with the deadline. I'm honored that you would consider adding my card to your expansion. I'll try to post the next contest within the next 24 hours.
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emtzalex

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #157 on: March 06, 2021, 11:33:47 pm »
+3

One last thing about Dawn cards before we move on. A lot of the conversation has been about the cards themselves, and comparing them to other types. But another thing that has occurred to me is how they interact with other cards, specifically, Durations. Because while both Moat and Laboratory draw Dawn cards dead, Den of Sin and Hireling don't. Not only are there Duration cards draw useable Dawn cards at the start of your turn, but there are several that put cards into your hand at the start of your turn, often with a fair amount of control over which cards. While I was aware of all of these cards, I hadn't paid much attention to the mechanic, because with the official game it doesn't really matter if you draw a card at clean-up, at the start of your turn, or during your turn using Action cards/Projects/etc.

With Dawn it matters a lot, and changes the strength and value of those cards. For example, Gear and Dungeon are two cards that I usually pass on, but if I was also buying solid Dawn cards, they would become way more appealing. I actually looked back over all the Durations, and there are quite a few interesting cases. Haven, for example, is another card that doesn't draw Dawns dead. Two interesting cases are Haunted Woods and Enchantress. While Haunted Woods' +3 Cards is valuable in potentially getting Dawns you can use, it's Attack is potentially weakened as your opponent can topdeck any Dawns they draw dead to use next turn. With Enchantress, if you have a Dawn/Action instead of getting your card turned into a cantrip, if you play it during your Dawn phase it will be turned into a Village. Also, non-Action Dawn cards let you play effects before having to be hit by the Enchantress, which can help mitigate the effects.

I don't think this is a problem because none of these cards is so good as to be made broken good by their added utility in the presence of Dawn cards. But it is one more interesting thing to think about.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #158 on: March 07, 2021, 04:30:05 pm »
+2

I'm very sorry everyone, but a bunch of stuff has come up in my life and I'm not feeling up to running the contest this week. Perhaps the second-place winner could run it instead?
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mathdude

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #159 on: March 07, 2021, 08:12:39 pm »
+2

I'm very sorry everyone, but a bunch of stuff has come up in my life and I'm not feeling up to running the contest this week. Perhaps the second-place winner could run it instead?

Ok, now we're looking for Nobody to run the next contest!
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Gubump

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #160 on: March 07, 2021, 11:47:20 pm »
+2

Ok, now we're looking for Nobody to run the next contest!

Without context, this looks hilarious.
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Nobody

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #161 on: March 08, 2021, 07:39:51 am »
+3

Well, ok then:
Fan Card Mechanics Week 4: Trade tokens
Were coming to the really old stuff. This is a mechanic from LastFootnote- posted in 2012.
Since Im bad in explaining things, here are two examples:
Alright? So Trade tokens can be used for literally everything- maybe you get Villager tokens for them, or you can trash your whole deck with it, or they give VPs. Its really up to you. In LastFootnotes expansion, mostly you get one, when you gain a card- but obviously there are many other ways.
Since villagers as well as Coffers come with a shortcut, i think a shortcut for Trade tokens makes sense. So, when you dont want to write "take a Trade token", just use this: "+1 Trade". Ok, I admit, that doesnt sound too great- when you know something better, just go for it.

Judging criterias
The question I will ask myself is:"How interesting is the card?" This is a very general question,  so I divide it a bit:
  • creativity- how new is your concept? A perfectly balanced card, that uses the Trade tokens well and does everything else right wont rank high, if its just completely boring. You also can ask yourself "How much does my card add to the game?"
  • use of the mechanic- this is about Fan Card Mechanics, so obviously its very important to me, how well you use the Mechanic
  • balance- Well, not much to say here I think. The card should be somehow balanced. If you want, you can also make it balanced with LastFootnotes cards(http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2114.msg33093#msg33093), but thats not necessary(but please say, if your entry is meant to interact with LastFootnotes cards).
    However, i am pretty new to Dominion, so Im very bad at this point myself, especially with mechanics from expansions. And this is, where you come into play. It would be very helpfull, when you could give each other a little feedback about the balance of the cards(and if you want, about the rest also, of course). This makes the judging for me much easier and it gets less of a coin flip   
  • simplicity- Well, objectively this wont be a point, but since we all know, how objective humans are...

Have fun!

Submissions will be closed next Monday at 1pm forum time
« Last Edit: March 08, 2021, 05:34:32 pm by Nobody »
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Xen3k

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #162 on: March 08, 2021, 12:06:04 pm »
+5



Quote
Trade Cutter - $4
Action
+1 Buy
+$2
Choose one: +1 Trade; or pay 2 Trade for +2 Cards at the end of this turn.

A Woodcutter+ with a quasi Den of Sin attached if you have two Trade tokens to spare. I could have made it a Duration and had the card draw actually happen on your next turn, but thought it interesting to make it difficult to use when hand-size attacks are in the kingdom and having it cycle through your deck faster seemed a better design. Feedback is appreciated.
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spineflu

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #163 on: March 08, 2021, 12:20:29 pm »
+2


Quote
Depot $4 Action
You may spend a Trade token to gain a card costing up to $6. If you don't, gain a card costing up to $4.
-
When you gain or trash this, gain a Trade token.

emtzalex

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics Week 4: Trade tokens
« Reply #164 on: March 08, 2021, 12:44:12 pm »
+1

Here's what I came up with:



Quote from: Speculator
Speculator -- $5
Action
+1 Buy
Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Play any Treasures, then discard the rest (revealed) for +$1 each.
You may pay a Trade token to replay this card. Otherwise, end your Action phase.
-----
When you gain this, +1 Trade.

I decided to follow LastFootnote's model of giving a single Trade token on gain. I like the idea of a card that has both a regular, reusable version and a one-shot enhanced version. (There may be ways to get more than one shot, but that's true of official cards as well, e.g. Experiment - Inheritance).

This is a twist on Vault. When played from a hand of 5 cards, it effectively works the same (but with +1 Buy and without the opponent interaction). It can sometimes be stronger than Vault, e.g. using Disappearing Money or after a handcard attack. And, of course, it's bonus play is almost like a variant on Tactician or Mission, effectively giving you a bonus turn, albeit one on which you cannot play any Actions. (And it's even better, because while the extra Buys mean you can use the money from each hand to buy a separate card, you also have the option of combining them into one large purchase).

However, it has several weaknesses as well. It doesn't combine well with Lab variants (drawing 1 or 0 cards if you increase your handsize above 5 before playing it). Worse, it's mandatorily terminal; unlike Vault, which makes discarding optional, this empties your hand and ends your Action phase. Even if you have a village, you can't use this to keep playing Actions, making it a significantly worse choice as an engine component. It also prevents you from playing Night cards.

One interesting (possibly too strong/swingy) synergy is with the oft-overlooked March. As long as you don't hit a shuffle it is easy to do, and playing this from your discard pile is all but guaranteed to yield more than $3, even on a regular play, plus providing a Buy to make up for the one used.
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MrHiTech

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #165 on: March 10, 2021, 11:32:50 am »
+1

« Last Edit: March 22, 2021, 01:01:19 pm by MrHiTech »
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #166 on: March 10, 2021, 11:47:55 am »
+1

add "width=320" into the image tag. As in, [img width=320 ] link[/ img] (but without the whitespaces
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Nobody

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #167 on: March 10, 2021, 12:12:39 pm »
+1

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Aquila

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #168 on: March 10, 2021, 05:08:38 pm »
+3

So Trade tokens seem to be a very simple mechanic in essence, a way to save power up for later use at the optimal time. There is a fair bit of this in Dominion, like Coffers, Villagers, Reserves, Way of the Turtle. The advantage of Trade tokens is achieving optional (unlike most Reserves), flexible (unlike Turtle), versatile (unlike Coffers and Villagers) boosts.

LFN made them hard to get with powerful boosts on offer; to me, that adds to their definition. In theory there could be a kind of Trade token that's easy to get whilst giving modest boosts, but that would seem like an entirely different mechanic.

So my entry tries to mix well with LFN's cards:
Quote
Yeoman - Action Victory, $6 cost.
You may spend a Trade token for +3 Cards.
-
Worth 5VP if you have the most Trade tokens (or tied), or 2VP for second most (or tied).
-
When you gain this, take a Trade token per 2 different types you have in play (round up).
Gives a reason to keep them, so there's a choice to spend or not spend.
The scoring bit is awkwardly worded. The actual number of Trade tokens you have at game end doesn't matter, so long as you have the most or second most. Ties are grouped together, so if A and B have 3 tokens, C has 2 and D 1, both A's and B's Yeomen get 5VP whilst C's get 2. (If B instead had 2 tokens, A would get 5VP whilst B and C get 2.)
I did it like this rather than scale with your own number of tokens since one of LFN's cards is a Treasure that can take a Trade token on play, so there could be infinite VP potential.
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Something_Smart

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #169 on: March 11, 2021, 12:19:03 am »
+5



The Goods are a deck of 10 sideways card-shaped objects, like Boons and Hexes. Each time you gain a Foreign Trader, put the next Good face-up in a pile, and its effect remains active until covered. The Goods aren't reshuffled; even if the players somehow manage to gain more than ten total Foreign Traders, the tenth Good remains face-up for the rest of the game.




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fika monster

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #170 on: March 11, 2021, 04:56:58 am »
0


Quote
Depot $4 Action
You may spend a Trade token to gain a card costing up to $6. If you don't, gain a card costing up to $4.
-
When you gain or trash this, gain a Trade token.

It feels a smidge too good? I think i would reduce its non-trade token gaining to "up to 3$"
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fika monster

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #171 on: March 11, 2021, 04:58:44 am »
0



The Goods are a deck of 10 sideways card-shaped objects, like Boons and Hexes. Each time you gain a Foreign Trader, put the next Good face-up in a pile, and its effect remains active until covered. The Goods aren't reshuffled; even if the players somehow manage to gain more than ten total Foreign Traders, the tenth Good remains face-up for the rest of the game.

I like this idea. If i understood correctly, the Effect is global? ie, it works for all players

If so, it would be a cool Kingdom modifier, that changes it in a landscape like way, but swtiches the way you play
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fika monster

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #172 on: March 11, 2021, 05:01:36 am »
0



Suggestions for alternate Trade token names, that work better with "+X" format

Riches, Wealth, Assets, Means

Power, influence
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 12:49:04 pm by fika monster »
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Timinou

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #173 on: March 11, 2021, 10:36:04 am »
+2



Muster could just have said "Twice per game:...", but I like the idea of using Trade tokens for tracking.  You could also theoretically make use of Muster more than twice per game if there are other card shaped things that allow you to gain additional Trade tokens.
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DunnoItAll

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #174 on: March 11, 2021, 11:05:58 am »
+4

I have played many games with the Enterprise fan expansion. I think the trade token mechanic is a really cool idea. I haven't ever entered one of these contests, but seeing how one of my favorite mechanics is the focus of this one, I thought I'd give it a crack.

I love the idea that trade tokens are hard to get. However, if you have only one Enterprise card in your kingdom, basically the only way to get one is to buy another one of that card, making them true one-shot cards. I wanted to try to address that problem, while still making them scarce. Enter the Heirloom.  Heirlooms are always in the kingdom with the other card, so you will always have an alternate way to get Trade tokens (aside from just buying another copy of the original card). You also can't stock up on them (you'll get one and like it, mister). I thought it needed to be slowed down in order to maintain the proper scarcity, so it has to go hide on your Tavern mat until recalled for that precious token.

« Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 11:01:10 pm by DunnoItAll »
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