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Author Topic: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics  (Read 25882 times)

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scolapasta

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New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« on: December 19, 2020, 02:30:03 pm »
+4

Hi all,

What would people think of a new weekly contest specifically dedicated to fan card mechanics? (credit to spineflue for starting this "atlas")

Inspired by weekly design content #90*, Steal Ideas!, but in this case every entry would have to use the fan card mechanic chosen by that week's judge.

* and the fact that I was mildly disappointed to see no one expand on my Worshippers mechanic...


If we like this idea, I think the best thing would be to wait until the current "Set Design Contest has worked its way through every expansion, then have this contest take its place.

Thoughts?
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gambit05

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2020, 03:02:45 pm »
+1

Hi all,

What would people think of a new weekly contest specifically dedicated to fan card mechanics? (credit to spineflue for starting this "atlas")

Inspired by weekly design content #90*, Steal Ideas!, but in this case every entry would have to use the fan card mechanic chosen by that week's judge.

* and the fact that I was mildly disappointed to see no one expand on my Worshippers mechanic...


If we like this idea, I think the best thing would be to wait until the current "Set Design Contest has worked its way through every expansion, then have this contest take its place.

Thoughts?

I usually don't like designing cards with other people's mechanics, but why not here and there a few of them. I just saw your Worshippers. I have a very similar mechanic using Chaplain tokens. The difference is that they can only trash cards from your hand.

Independently from your contest idea, we can also think about extending the Set Expansion Contest by looking for crossover cards for related Expansions, e.g. Guilds/Renaissance (if there is enough interest of course).
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spineflu

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2020, 08:12:44 am »
0

i think that'd be a neat way to continue the spirit of the set expansion contest, but i also think we should be narrowing the scope of the set expansion contest as we move on to more complex sets - an event for adventures, a landmark for empires, a duration-attack for empires, a curser for dark ages, etc - so i dont think it'll be over quite as soon as this would imply
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anordinaryman

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2020, 03:46:29 pm »
0

My view is that the two weekly contests we have now is already more than enough. Maybe slightly too much. With three it would be really hard for me personally to follow/contribute/critique to them. As of right now, I mainly focus on the standard Weekly Design Contest.

That being said, feel free to add another. This is just what I think. I just won't be able to contribute in any way. Perhaps I speak for other members of the forum, perhaps I don't.
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silverspawn

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2020, 04:07:32 pm »
+1

Well, the set expansion contest is going to end eventually. If two is the right number, we can use this to get back to 2.
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spineflu

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2021, 12:50:39 pm »
+1

we gonna do this now that the set expansion contest ran its course?
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scolapasta

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2021, 04:18:59 pm »
+1

As I stated in my initial post, I'd be happy for this purely for selfish reasons of wanting to see others expand on my Worshippers mechanic. If others are, as well, I'd be happy to host week 1 (seeing as I don't see myself winning the WDC any time soon :) ).

If we do, my thought for this is to be a week+ long process. The initial few days would allow some discussion on the mechanic, in case it needs any tweaking (with final decisions being the judge's, of course.

So basically:
Day 1: Introduce the mechanic, opening up to some discussion.
Day n: Finalize any changes to the mechanic.
Day n+ 1 week: Judging.

Does that sound reasonable? Are people interested in trying this?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2021, 04:39:27 pm by scolapasta »
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silverspawn

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2021, 05:46:11 pm »
+3

I'd participate.
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spineflu

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2021, 06:48:59 pm »
+1

sounds great to me
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X-tra

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2021, 07:20:02 pm »
+2

Ye I could jump in as well. So long as we rotate no more than 2 Weekly contests, I'm not too overwhelmed. Since the Set Design Contest has ended, this could take over; we'd keep 2 contests rotating this way.

I just want to point out that custom mechanics have generally not been tested and fine tuned like the official ones. Maybe a certain mechanic will be pretty eeeeeh on paper for some. I think it's alright and that we should still roll with it and try to exploit such mechanics to the best of our abilities anyway. It's all in good spirits here anyway. I don't think I'm stepping too much ahead of myself when I say we're here to have fun.
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scolapasta

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics Week 1: Worshippers
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2021, 07:39:50 pm »
+3

OK, let's give it a go then!

Some basic tenets for the contest:

• the mechanic you choose to "host" does not have to be one that you came up with
• a good source of mechanics is the Atlas of Fan Card Mechanics
• if you want to allow a few days at the beginning to discuss and possibly tweak the mechanic, feel free, but it's also not necessary
• try to include a card shaped thing that implements the mechanic (possibly, in its most simple form)

So without further ado:

Fan Card Mechanics Week 1: Worshippers

Worshippers are a new type of token that you can "spend" during your Clean up phase:

The latest version of the rules (and mat) I had posted is this:



Quote
At the start of your Clean-up phase, you may remove tokens from this to trash a card from your hand or one you have in play for each token removed.

and a simple Chapel variant:



Quote
Apse Chapel - Action - $2
+2 Worshippers.

Pre Contest Discussion:
• I'm still overall happy with this design - the main thing I was unsure of when I first posted was whether allowing to trash cards from either hand or in play was too strong. For Apse Chapel, I hopefully balanced it out enough by only taking 2 tokens per play. (this design was originally for a contest entitled "Make me skip chapel!".)

• you can see some more of the cards I came up for it, in various states of completion, in the scolapasta's cards thread

• I am planning on cleaning up (pun intended) the rules / mat wording a little to:

Quote
At the start of your Clean-up phase, you may remove tokens from this. For each removed token, trash a card that you would discard this turn.

It borrows some wording from Improve, helps tracking (now, you can't trash Duration cards that would stay in play) and removes some words by making the trashing mandatory (since that shouldn't really affect gameplay). Does this work better?

• My intention is to start the contest at some point Tuesday (or Wednesday, at the latest)


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Timinou

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2021, 07:03:19 pm »
0

I'm looking forward to this.  The current WDC is in the same vein (based on fika monster's Snow mechanic) and it seems to be quite popular so far.

With Worshippers, I'm wondering if being able to use them in your Action phase in addition to the Clean-up phase would add more depth to the mechanic, or if that is an intentional limitation.  For example, you get the benefit from trashing Rats or a Cultist if you do so at the start of your Clean-up phase.
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scolapasta

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2021, 09:17:10 pm »
+3

I'll admit the main reason for the clean up phase is parallelism:
• Villagers can be used in your Action phase to amplify your Action Phase (by playing more Actions)
• Coffers can be used in your Buy Phase to amplify your Buy Phase (by buying more expensive cards)
• Worshippers can be used in your Clean-up phase to amplify your Clean-up phase (by trashing cards you would discard).

It's probably also good that it limits their strength some, since they are quite powerful already.
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scolapasta

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics Week 1: Worshippers
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2021, 03:33:18 pm »
+4

OK, let's get this contest started!

Here is the newest version of the Worshippers mechanic (amusingly it's basically back to what it was in v0.1, with the addition of "this turn":



Quote
At the start of your Clean-up phase, you may remove tokens from this.
For each removed token, trash a card that you would discard this turn.

Contest submission end will be Wednesday, February 9 00:01 Forum Time.

My general criteria will be based on: Is this a card I wish I had designed?

So I will look towards it being interesting and fun, foremost, and at least somewhat thematic. While balance is also important, if it's a card that has some imbalance but potential to be fixed, it won't lose many points.
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spineflu

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2021, 06:56:01 pm »
+4


Quote
Mendicant • $4 • Action
Trash a card from your hand.

+1 Worshipper per $1 it cost. If it was a Treasure, draw until you have 4 cards in hand and +1 Action.

Nerfed so it's muddier whether it's "strictly better" than Silk Merchant or not.


ALSO OLD VERSION

Quote
Mendicant • $4 • Action
Trash a card from your hand.

+1 Worshipper per $1 it cost. If it was a Treasure, +2 Cards and +1 Action.

Nerfed to be slightly worse than Chapel / on par with Silk Merchant. Still very good at trashing but not nearly as good as it was.


OLD VERSION

Quote
Mendicant • $4 • Action
+2 Cards
Trash a card from your hand. +1 Worshippers per $1 it cost. If you have no Worshippers, +1 Action

This is a Recruiter and Spice Merchant variant; I took the pricing from Spice Merchant so everyone would be able to open with it. I haven't tested it but I suspect it can trash very fast if you trash good stuff, or be a Spice Merchant style pseudolab (pseudo bc hand size doesn't increase with this) when trashing Coppers/Curses. I think it's reasonable for it to cost the same as Spice Merchant bc it lacks the woodcutter flexibility that s.m. has (in favor of chapel-like flexibility).
« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 03:11:12 pm by spineflu »
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bitwise

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2021, 07:10:57 pm »
0

So for the rules of the Worshippers, do they work on cards that were in play that you would discard in cleanup, or cards that were left in your hand, or both?

EDIT: I guess from looking above, it's either? And the wording is to disallow trashing things like Durations that are supposed to stay out?
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bitwise

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2021, 07:32:52 pm »
+2

Assuming I've interpreted the Worshippers rules correctly, I think that Mendicant is ridiculously strong. It's pretty likely that in a game where you open it and Silver, that by the end of your Turn 5, you've gotten to trash 2 Estates+4 Coppers or 3 Estates+3 Coppers, and hit $5 once or twice. This seems better than Chapel or Cathedral in most games.
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spineflu

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2021, 07:36:02 pm »
0

Assuming I've interpreted the Worshippers rules correctly, I think that Mendicant is ridiculously strong. It's pretty likely that in a game where you open it and Silver, that by the end of your Turn 5, you've gotten to trash 2 Estates+4 Coppers or 3 Estates+3 Coppers, and hit $5 once or twice. This seems better than Chapel or Cathedral in most games.

yeah it seems way too strong if you can trash from hand with worshippers; i was assuming trash from in-play discards only. idk. I'll test it out and see how it plays against like, chapel.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2021, 07:40:55 pm by spineflu »
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bitwise

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2021, 10:18:56 pm »
+2

I think it would be approximately as strong, and still stronger than Chapel/Cathedral even if the Worshippers only trash the in play cards (like Bonfire). My analysis:
If you open Mendicant/Silver, you have 12 cards. If you see Mendicant in your first 10 out of 12 the next shuffle, you are going to go through all 12 cards exactly over the two turns. Assuming there is an Estate on the turn you play Mendicant (note that you see 6 out of the 11 other cards that turn), you can trash Estate and 2 Coppers that turn. Also assuming both these two things happen, you will have $9 money over 2 turns and will be guaranteed to hit 5. I think the most likely split is $5/$4?

This already seems favorable to me compared to Chapel -- comparing the most common cases of either, you're trashing one fewer card (and not as many Estates perhaps), but you have a $5 in your deck too over the Chapel open. Also the Estates don't seem obviously worse than Coppers to me -- finding one with a Mendicant means you can trash 2 Coppers that turn as well, after all.
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Xen3k

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2021, 10:50:00 pm »
+3



Quote
Midnight Ritual - $4
Night - Duration - Attack
You may discard a card. Each other player gains a copy of it.
At the start of your next turn, choose one: +2 Worshippers; or +2 Coffers; or +1 Card.
----
When you gain this, gain a Curse.

It is a trasher that also can attack. It can also act as half a Caravan or Silver Coffer gainer. The attack requires you to have the junk you want to give in your deck, making the decision on what to trash a little bit more of a weighty decision. It also jump start your cursing campaign by giving you a Curse when you gain it. Being a duration is intended to slow it down and make it not as oppressive as it could be as it is non-terminal and does not cost $5. Feedback is appreciated.

Edit: Simplified wording and Bolded Worshippers per feedback from Gubump and Bbobb. Also changed the Silver gain to 2 to make it slightly more appealing and more in line with the likes of Amulet.

Edit 2: Changed price to $5. Changed Silver gain to Gold 2 Coffers.

Quote
Old Version
« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 06:17:31 pm by Xen3k »
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scolapasta

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2021, 11:14:08 pm »
+2

So for the rules of the Worshippers, do they work on cards that were in play that you would discard in cleanup, or cards that were left in your hand, or both?

EDIT: I guess from looking above, it's either? And the wording is to disallow trashing things like Durations that are supposed to stay out?

They work on both cards that are in play and cards in your hand.

Version 0.3 specified this explicitly; v0.4 was meant to simplify the wording, while not changing the concept (though, as you noticed, it does add "this turn" for not trashing Durations that are supposed to stay out).
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emtzalex

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2021, 12:08:24 am »
+5



Pilgrims' Hostel - $4
Action
+1 Card
+2 Actions
You may discard a Victory card for +1 Worshipper.
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Gubump

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2021, 12:17:27 am »
+1



Quote
Midnight Ritual - $4
Night - Duration - Attack
You may reveal and discard a card from your hand. If you do, each other player gains a copy of it.
At the start of your next turn, choose one: +2 Worshippers; or +1 Card; or gain a Silver.
----
When you gain this, gain a Curse.

It is a trasher that also can attack. It can also act as half a Caravan or Silver gainer. The attack required you to have the junk you want to give in your deck, making the decision on what to trash a little bit more of a decision. It also jump start your cursing campaign by giving you a Curse when you gain it. Being a duration is intended to slow it down and make it not as oppressive as it could be as it is non-terminal and does not cost $5. Feedback is appreciated.

Since you're only discarding one card, that card is going to be visible to everyone, so there's no need to reveal it.
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BBobb

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2021, 12:21:41 am »
+1



Quote
Midnight Ritual - $4
Night - Duration - Attack
You may reveal and discard a card from your hand. If you do, each other player gains a copy of it.
At the start of your next turn, choose one: +2 Worshippers; or +1 Card; or gain a Silver.
----
When you gain this, gain a Curse.
I would capitalize worhsippers.
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Hand - King's Court, Ruined Village, Estate, Copper, Possession
Turn -
BBobb plays King's Court
… and plays a Ruined Village.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined Village again.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined village a third time.
… … getting +1 Action.
BBobb plays a Copper.
BBobb buys a Poor House.
(BBobb draws: 2 King's Courts and 3 Possessions)
BBobb=GOD

Timinou

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2021, 12:36:19 am »
+3



Quote from: Missionary
$4 - Action
+$2
You may put your deck into your discard pile. You may look through your discard pile and trash up to 2 cards from it. If you trashed any, each other player gains +1 Worshipper.

This is a Chancellor variant that has similarities to Bishop.  Giving your opponents Worshippers is great for them, but the benefits of terminal silver, deck cycling, and trashing should outweigh that.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 11:57:26 am by Timinou »
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2021, 04:31:26 am »
0


Quote
Mendicant • $4 • Action
+2 Cards
Trash a card from your hand. +1 Worshippers per $1 it cost. If you have no Worshippers, +1 Action

This is a Recruiter and Spice Merchant variant; I took the pricing from Spice Merchant so everyone would be able to open with it. I haven't tested it but I suspect it can trash very fast if you trash good stuff, or be a Spice Merchant style pseudolab (pseudo bc hand size doesn't increase with this) when trashing Coppers/Curses. I think it's reasonable for it to cost the same as Spice Merchant bc it lacks the woodcutter flexibility that s.m. has (in favor of chapel-like flexibility).

remember that almost every card that can trash without reducing your handsize is among the strongest cards in the game.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2021, 09:40:29 am »
+3

A couple of quick (physical) design notes:
• Worshippers are tokens, not cards, so it should be +1 (or x) Worshipper, not gain a Worshipper
• if you're using the Card Image Generator, you can bold the keyword by adding Worshipper under Additional Bold Keywords
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Timinou

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2021, 11:58:18 am »
0

A couple of quick (physical) design notes:
• Worshippers are tokens, not cards, so it should be +1 (or x) Worshipper, not gain a Worshipper
• if you're using the Card Image Generator, you can bold the keyword by adding Worshipper under Additional Bold Keywords

Thanks!  I've revised my submission.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2021, 12:39:11 pm »
0

A couple of quick (physical) design notes:
• Worshippers are tokens, not cards, so it should be +1 (or x) Worshipper, not gain a Worshipper
• if you're using the Card Image Generator, you can bold the keyword by adding Worshipper under Additional Bold Keywords

Also (to get even more pedantic), it's +1 Worshipper but +2 Worshippers. This is worth noting because while it is +1 Villager but +2 Villagers (compare Patron with Lackeys), it is both +1 Coffers and +2 Coffers (compare Baker with Butcher).
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2021, 12:40:09 pm »
0

My submission has been updated with the correctly bolded keyword and rewording. I am actually unsure now if it should be $4 or $5. I think it should be ok at $4, but would love some opinions on it.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2021, 01:18:40 pm »
+1

My submission has been updated with the correctly bolded keyword and rewording. I am actually unsure now if it should be $4 or $5. I think it should be ok at $4, but would love some opinions on it.

I'm leaning more towards $5.  Even if you gain a Curse with it, you can use that to fuel the junking attack (or easily get rid of it with a Worshipper).  The attack combined with the next turn options make it quite strong, IMO, and it doesn't take up terminal space.  That said, I don't think it would be a particularly strong $5 (I would perhaps consider changing the option of gaining 2 Silvers to something else).
« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 02:32:35 pm by Timinou »
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2021, 01:28:50 pm »
0

updated my submission after a couple rounds of testing.

also a fun fact about the first version: still slower than Donate
« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 05:48:55 pm by spineflu »
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2021, 02:53:16 pm »
0

Now it's almost strictly better than Spice Merchant. That's probably not ok.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2021, 02:56:57 pm »
0

Now it's almost strictly better than Spice Merchant. That's probably not ok.
spice merchant can act as a source for buys; i'd argue the old version had that problem much worse. In any event, I revised it again, so that we don't have to have this conversation.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 03:11:50 pm by spineflu »
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2021, 03:26:24 pm »
+1

The problem wasn't so much that it's strictly stronger than another card, but that it's generally stronger than the probably most busted 4$ in the game. The only reason SM doesn't feel OP is that both players have it and you usually only want to buy one.

The new version is much weaker. It's still very strong, but probably okay. I think nerfing it as an early Copper trasher in particular was a good choice. Now it fills a much more unique role.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2021, 03:29:28 pm »
+2

This contest feels like a great way to spark creativity! It certainly challenges me to think carefully about good design principles.

With Worshippers, I'm struggling to find ways to make them interesting over regular trashing. There's a wide variety of trashing techniques among the official cards already, and it's hard not to clash with them. So my conclusion is to add extra alternative ability, choose trashing or keep the Worshippers for something else. That way there can always be purpose to them after the starting deck is trashed as well.

I intentionally choose not to name my entry as I'm a bit uncomfortable around the flavour:
Quote
Sort-of-Butcher - Action, $3 cost.
+1 Action
+1 Worshipper

This turn, when you trash a card, you may remove any number of your Worshippers. If you remove any, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than the trashed card per Worshipper removed.
Of course it's not just Butcher, it's like Forager in how it trashes early.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #36 on: February 03, 2021, 03:38:00 pm »
0

This contest feels like a great way to spark creativity! It certainly challenges me to think carefully about good design principles.

With Worshippers, I'm struggling to find ways to make them interesting over regular trashing. There's a wide variety of trashing techniques among the official cards already, and it's hard not to clash with them. So my conclusion is to add extra alternative ability, choose trashing or keep the Worshippers for something else. That way there can always be purpose to them after the starting deck is trashed as well.

I intentionally choose not to name my entry as I'm a bit uncomfortable around the flavour:
Quote
Sort-of-Butcher - Action, $3 cost.
+1 Action
+1 Worshipper

This turn, when you trash a card, you may remove any number of your Worshippers. If you remove any, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than the trashed card per Worshipper removed.
Of course it's not just Butcher, it's like Forager in how it trashes early.
how about "chef"? sort of a different take on worshippers with that connotation, ties kinda to butchers and foragers.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #37 on: February 03, 2021, 03:57:23 pm »
0

How about "Trapper"? (not sure how well the Worshippers tie in, but it's sorta like a forager)
« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 03:59:24 pm by Timinou »
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Xen3k

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2021, 05:36:41 pm »
0

My submission has been updated with the correctly bolded keyword and rewording. I am actually unsure now if it should be $4 or $5. I think it should be ok at $4, but would love some opinions on it.

I'm leaning more towards $5.  Even if you gain a Curse with it, you can use that to fuel the junking attack (or easily get rid of it with a Worshipper).  The attack combined with the next turn options make it quite strong, IMO, and it doesn't take up terminal space.  That said, I don't think it would be a particularly strong $5 (I would perhaps consider changing the option of gaining 2 Silvers to something else).

I think changing it to $5 is a good move. Changed the Silver gain to Coffers gain instead. Thanks for the feedback.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 05:40:50 pm by Xen3k »
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #39 on: February 03, 2021, 08:44:31 pm »
+1

This contest feels like a great way to spark creativity! It certainly challenges me to think carefully about good design principles.

With Worshippers, I'm struggling to find ways to make them interesting over regular trashing. There's a wide variety of trashing techniques among the official cards already, and it's hard not to clash with them. So my conclusion is to add extra alternative ability, choose trashing or keep the Worshippers for something else. That way there can always be purpose to them after the starting deck is trashed as well.

I intentionally choose not to name my entry as I'm a bit uncomfortable around the flavour:
Quote
Sort-of-Butcher - Action, $3 cost.
+1 Action
+1 Worshipper

This turn, when you trash a card, you may remove any number of your Worshippers. If you remove any, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than the trashed card per Worshipper removed.
Of course it's not just Butcher, it's like Forager in how it trashes early.
how about "chef"? sort of a different take on worshippers with that connotation, ties kinda to butchers and foragers.

Maybe the cook or quartermaster for a monastery / convent (or some other religious order). I'm not sure if there is a specific name for that role.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2021, 10:39:57 pm »
+1

« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 06:06:34 pm by Commodore Chuckles »
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2021, 12:43:19 am »
0



Interesting!  If you open double Miracle Worker, this could give you 6 Worshippers by the beginning of Turn 5 (assuming they don't collide and you don't spend any tokens in Turns 3 and 4).  If you get lucky and draw a Miracle Worker on Turn 5, you could end up with 13 Worshippers in Turn 6, which would be enough to trash your starting Coppers and Estates, and both Miracle Workers.  Seems pretty strong as an opener, especially since you get to play your Coppers before you trash them.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2021, 03:16:56 pm »
+7

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #43 on: February 04, 2021, 03:44:15 pm »
+4

Well, I said I'd participate. So here's my attempt as well:



short of reaching that neat card? Man, just buy a Copper, you'll get there. And hey, here's 2 Worshippers for you to trash it eventually! Perhaps the +1 Worshipper should be a simple vanilla bonus, but eh. It might be too explosive, I dunno.

Offering, I think, really benefit from that cost. We don't want people just stockpiling on these; and Offering itself would otherwise make it very easy to do so.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2021, 03:45:32 pm by X-tra »
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #44 on: February 04, 2021, 05:01:24 pm »
0

Interesting!  If you open double Miracle Worker, this could give you 6 Worshippers by the beginning of Turn 5 (assuming they don't collide and you don't spend any tokens in Turns 3 and 4).  If you get lucky and draw a Miracle Worker on Turn 5, you could end up with 13 Worshippers in Turn 6, which would be enough to trash your starting Coppers and Estates, and both Miracle Workers.  Seems pretty strong as an opener, especially since you get to play your Coppers before you trash them.

Do you think it should be $4 instead?
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #45 on: February 04, 2021, 05:59:07 pm »
+1

(With apologies to Gubump for its similiarites, as I made this yesterday and only got around to uploading it today)

Quote
Saint
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Buy, +$2
When you gain or trash this, +1 Worshipper for each differently named card you have in play costing at least $3.
Saint is a $4-cost Woodcutter that comes and goes with some Worshippers based on the variety of your better cards.  Cards need to cost at least $3 to minimize games in which opening with a Worshipper is possible.  You can still do it with Pooka (a wash anyway), Nomad Camp (getting 2 Woodcutters to trash 1 Estate), and Fool.  If you get multiple Worshippers, one can be spent trashing the Saint to double-dip its ability.

Buy a Saint turn 3 or 4 for +1 Worshipper to trash an Estate.  Buy it turn 5 or 6 for at least +2 Worshippers to trash an Estate and then the Saint later for +3 Worshippers or more.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2021, 10:52:57 pm »
+2


It'd be so funny to have a game where the scoring is this + Fortress + Tomb. Mwahahahaha
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #47 on: February 05, 2021, 02:58:15 am »
0

Interesting!  If you open double Miracle Worker, this could give you 6 Worshippers by the beginning of Turn 5 (assuming they don't collide and you don't spend any tokens in Turns 3 and 4).  If you get lucky and draw a Miracle Worker on Turn 5, you could end up with 13 Worshippers in Turn 6, which would be enough to trash your starting Coppers and Estates, and both Miracle Workers.  Seems pretty strong as an opener, especially since you get to play your Coppers before you trash them.

Do you think it should be $4 instead?

It's hard for me to gauge.  I think I like the idea of being able to open double Miracle Worker.  There's still a ~30% chance that they collide, and that would slow down how quickly you can gain Worshippers.  I'm not even sure if the optimal strategy would be to not use any Worshippers that you gain on T3 ot T4.  I think there would be better opening strategies than double Miracle Worker on many boards, but you could consider making the +2 Worshippers on gain rather than each time it is played if it ends up being OP in it's current form.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #48 on: February 05, 2021, 11:48:34 am »
+2


My Submission:

   
Shrine
$2 Action – Reaction

Quote

+1 Action
You may discard a card,
for +1 Worshipper.

-------------------------

When another player plays
     an Attack card, you may first     
 play this from your hand.

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #49 on: February 08, 2021, 08:11:46 am »
+3



(I know 'gains' is not the classically correct word, but it's simplest in this case and seems pretty unambiguous.)
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #50 on: February 08, 2021, 09:05:02 am »
0

Is Heretic a bit weak for $5?  It's almost like handing out a delayed -1 Card token, since players can trash the Curse at the end of the turn that they draw it.  Even though the attack can stack unlike something like Relic, Heretic still hands out Worshippers even once the Curse pile runs out.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #51 on: February 08, 2021, 09:38:29 am »
+1

Agreed, but delayed -1 Card token on top of 3 cards seems decent.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #52 on: February 08, 2021, 10:03:24 am »
+1



(I know 'gains' is not the classically correct word, but it's simplest in this case and seems pretty unambiguous.)

This is interestingly similar to handing out a Snow (from the previous weekly design challenge) instead of a Curse and worshipper. The main difference is that Snow does not deplete a pile and does not provide a benefit after the Curses are gone.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2021, 10:04:26 am by Xen3k »
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #53 on: February 08, 2021, 10:39:34 am »
0


Quote
Eternal Sacrifice
Type: Action
Cost: $3
+$2
You may trash up to 2 Cards.  If you do, +1 Worshipper.

Updated to:

Quote
Eternal Sacrifice
Type: Action
Cost: $4
+$2
You may trash up to 2 cards from your hand.  If you trash at least one, +1 Worshipper

It almost seems too simple, but sometimes those end up being really good cards.  It's a terminal 3-cost silver.  But if you trash 1 or 2 cards, you get the ability to trash future cards too.  There shouldn't be a problem with people wanting to open double Eternal Sacrifice - if you trash too much before you get silver or other coin, it will stunt your deck growth too much - besides, buying just one, you have the ability to trash 2 cards with it (hopefully 2 estates), plus another card after.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2021, 01:15:23 pm by mathdude »
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #54 on: February 08, 2021, 10:42:44 am »
+1



(I know 'gains' is not the classically correct word, but it's simplest in this case and seems pretty unambiguous.)

This is interestingly similar to handing out a Snow (from the previous weekly design challenge) instead of a Curse and worshipper. The main difference is that Snow does not deplete a pile and does not provide a benefit after the Curses are gone.

Generally speaking, I guess the benefit of Worshippers should wane over the course of the game, so that by the time Curses run out, additional Worshippers become less useful.  That of course can change if there are other types of junkers in the Kingdom, or cards like Flag Bearer.   
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #55 on: February 08, 2021, 10:48:29 am »
+1


Quote
Eternal Sacrifice
Type: Action
Cost: $3
+$2
You may trash up to 2 Cards.  If you do, +1 Worshipper.

It almost seems too simple, but sometimes those end up being really good cards.  It's a terminal 3-cost silver.  But if you trash 1 or 2 cards, you get the ability to trash future cards too.  There shouldn't be a problem with people wanting to open double Eternal Sacrifice - if you trash too much before you get silver or other coin, it will stunt your deck growth too much - besides, buying just one, you have the ability to trash 2 cards with it (hopefully 2 estates), plus another card after.

You need to mention where the cards are trashed from. I suspect it's from your hand. In this case, it would need to say: "You may trash up to 2 Cards from your hand."
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #56 on: February 08, 2021, 10:54:21 am »
+1


Quote
Eternal Sacrifice
Type: Action
Cost: $3
+$2
You may trash up to 2 Cards.  If you do, +1 Worshipper.

It almost seems too simple, but sometimes those end up being really good cards.  It's a terminal 3-cost silver.  But if you trash 1 or 2 cards, you get the ability to trash future cards too.  There shouldn't be a problem with people wanting to open double Eternal Sacrifice - if you trash too much before you get silver or other coin, it will stunt your deck growth too much - besides, buying just one, you have the ability to trash 2 cards with it (hopefully 2 estates), plus another card after.

This seems really good for $3.  Opening double Eternal Sacrifice isn't really an issue, since the card itself gives you economy.  You wouldn't really need Silver.

Trashing up to 2 cards includes trashing 0.  So would you get +1 Worshipper regardless of whether or not you trashed anything? 
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #57 on: February 08, 2021, 11:28:53 am »
+1

A card that gives two options of Steward at once for the same cost is most certainly busted, even if it misses the +2 Cards option.
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Xen3k

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #58 on: February 08, 2021, 12:07:20 pm »
0



(I know 'gains' is not the classically correct word, but it's simplest in this case and seems pretty unambiguous.)

This is interestingly similar to handing out a Snow (from the previous weekly design challenge) instead of a Curse and worshipper. The main difference is that Snow does not deplete a pile and does not provide a benefit after the Curses are gone.

Generally speaking, I guess the benefit of Worshippers should wane over the course of the game, so that by the time Curses run out, additional Worshippers become less useful.  That of course can change if there are other types of junkers in the Kingdom, or cards like Flag Bearer.
Worshippers are really good up until when you have your "perfect" deck. I agree their usefulness does drop off, but by that point the game should be at the end game.
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segura

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #59 on: February 08, 2021, 12:41:20 pm »
+1

I like Heretic but isn’t it nearly always weaker than Old Witch? The only situation that comes to mind in which trashing the Curse immediately is better than getting a Worshipper is when a handsize Attack occurs after the junking.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #60 on: February 08, 2021, 12:52:27 pm »
+1

Or when you play a card that draws you a new hand, like Minion or Scholar or Way of the Mole. But you're right that it looks weak next to OW.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #61 on: February 08, 2021, 12:56:17 pm »
+1



(I know 'gains' is not the classically correct word, but it's simplest in this case and seems pretty unambiguous.)

This is very close to strictly worse than Old Witch, and by a huge margin. If your opponents have a Curse in hand, they can use the Worshipper you gave them to trash that Curse on their turn, which is effectively very close to the same downside as Old Witch, except that you don't have to have the Curse in hand at the time the Heretic is played. "Each other player gets +1 Worshipper" is almost strictly worse than "each other player may trash a card from their hand," which is strictly worse than "each other player may trash a Curse from their hand."
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #62 on: February 08, 2021, 12:57:45 pm »
0

Well, I said I'd participate. So here's my attempt as well:


I would change it to an on-gain trigger since Donald X. is moving from on-buy to on-gain.
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Hand - King's Court, Ruined Village, Estate, Copper, Possession
Turn -
BBobb plays King's Court
… and plays a Ruined Village.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined Village again.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined village a third time.
… … getting +1 Action.
BBobb plays a Copper.
BBobb buys a Poor House.
(BBobb draws: 2 King's Courts and 3 Possessions)
BBobb=GOD

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #63 on: February 08, 2021, 01:13:24 pm »
0


Quote
Eternal Sacrifice
Type: Action
Cost: $3
+$2
You may trash up to 2 Cards.  If you do, +1 Worshipper.

It almost seems too simple, but sometimes those end up being really good cards.  It's a terminal 3-cost silver.  But if you trash 1 or 2 cards, you get the ability to trash future cards too.  There shouldn't be a problem with people wanting to open double Eternal Sacrifice - if you trash too much before you get silver or other coin, it will stunt your deck growth too much - besides, buying just one, you have the ability to trash 2 cards with it (hopefully 2 estates), plus another card after.

This seems really good for $3.  Opening double Eternal Sacrifice isn't really an issue, since the card itself gives you economy.  You wouldn't really need Silver.

Trashing up to 2 cards includes trashing 0.  So would you get +1 Worshipper regardless of whether or not you trashed anything?
Thanks for the feedback.  I'm adding "if you trashed at least one" (similar to Bat).

A card that gives two options of Steward at once for the same cost is most certainly busted, even if it misses the +2 Cards option.
I missed the comparison to Steward - and yes, I barely use the +2 Cards option on that, so this is almost strictly better.  I'm changing to $4 cost - it also fixes the ability to open double Eternal Sacrifice.


Quote
Eternal Sacrifice
Type: Action
Cost: $4
+$2
You may trash up to 2 cards from your hand.  If you trash at least one, +1 Worshipper
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #64 on: February 08, 2021, 01:18:42 pm »
0

I would change it to an on-gain trigger since Donald X. is moving from on-buy to on-gain.

Doesn't that just apply to cases where they are similar -- i.e., primarily to cases where a card just does something when it's bought/gained?

Here, the card cares about other cards being gained or bought, in which case it makes a large difference.

"Each other player gets +1 Worshipper" is almost strictly worse than "each other player may trash a card from their hand,"

I agree with the bigger point, but not with this part. You're using 'worse' as 'the bigger downside', i.e., 'the greater help for your opponent'. But trashing a card from your hand right now is often more useful than getting +1 Worshipper, and it may actually be more useful on average. Any draw-to-x effect, any 'discard your hand a and draw' effect, and menagerie would much rather trash immediately.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #65 on: February 08, 2021, 01:27:16 pm »
0

I would change it to an on-gain trigger since Donald X. is moving from on-buy to on-gain.

Doesn't that just apply to cases where they are similar -- i.e., primarily to cases where a card just does something when it's bought/gained?

Here, the card cares about other cards being gained or bought, in which case it makes a large difference.

"Each other player gets +1 Worshipper" is almost strictly worse than "each other player may trash a card from their hand,"

I agree with the bigger point, but not with this part. You're using 'worse' as 'the bigger downside', i.e., 'the greater help for your opponent'. But trashing a card from your hand right now is often more useful than getting +1 Worshipper, and it may actually be more useful on average. Any draw-to-x effect, any 'discard your hand a and draw' effect, and menagerie would much rather trash immediately.

Those examples are why I said "almost." But +1 Worshipper guarantees that you're able to trash the exact card you want to trash, whereas trashing immediately does not. And that upside is present in 100% of games with Worshippers, unlike draw-to-x, discard-your-hand-and-draw, etc. And if you happen to have good cards in hand, +1 Worshipper allows you to trash bad cards later, whereas "you may trash a card from your hand" only allows you to trash immediately or not at all (again, an always present difference). Flexibility is huge, and Worshippers' benefits over immediate trashing are always present instead of only sometimes present like it's drawbacks.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2021, 01:33:40 pm by Gubump »
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #66 on: February 08, 2021, 01:52:48 pm »
0

It is always vs. sometimes, but it's always a little vs. sometimes a lot
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #67 on: February 08, 2021, 03:16:23 pm »
0

I would change it to an on-gain trigger since Donald X. is moving from on-buy to on-gain.

Doesn't that just apply to cases where they are similar -- i.e., primarily to cases where a card just does something when it's bought/gained?

Here, the card cares about other cards being gained or bought, in which case it makes a large difference.
Here, let's look at when Buy/when gain triggers in the newest expansion, Menagerie:

When gain effects: Camel Train, Sleigh, Sheepdog, Cavalry, Hostelry, Livery, Way of the Seal

When Buy effects:

Also,
Would you have made Holstery an overpay card if you could have?
No, because I no longer like doing when-buy triggers. The buy/gain distinction confuses too many people.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #68 on: February 08, 2021, 03:40:29 pm »
+1

I would change it to an on-gain trigger since Donald X. is moving from on-buy to on-gain.

Doesn't that just apply to cases where they are similar -- i.e., primarily to cases where a card just does something when it's bought/gained?

Here, the card cares about other cards being gained or bought, in which case it makes a large difference.
Here, let's look at when Buy/when gain triggers in the newest expansion, Menagerie:

When gain effects: Camel Train, Sleigh, Sheepdog, Cavalry, Hostelry, Livery, Way of the Seal

When Buy effects:

Also,
Would you have made Holstery an overpay card if you could have?
No, because I no longer like doing when-buy triggers. The buy/gain distinction confuses too many people.

My view on this is that for fan cards, it's fine to do either on-buy or on-gain triggers.  There are times when one is a better choice for a card than the other. 

In the case of Offering, I think it becomes much less balanced with an on-gain trigger.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #69 on: February 08, 2021, 03:45:23 pm »
+1

All cards which are not busted with on-gain, and for most of them it clearly makes more sense.

The list isn't nonzero evidence, but the the idea that we should dramatically raise the card's powerlevel to adhere to the principle is too crazy imo. If anything, it suggests that cards that require on-buy triggers shouldn't be done. You could redesign the card. Or do give it on-gain, but only if you think it's okay if it gets much stronger.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #70 on: February 08, 2021, 04:16:32 pm »
+2

I would change it to an on-gain trigger since Donald X. is moving from on-buy to on-gain.

Doesn't that just apply to cases where they are similar -- i.e., primarily to cases where a card just does something when it's bought/gained?

Here, the card cares about other cards being gained or bought, in which case it makes a large difference.
Here, let's look at when Buy/when gain triggers in the newest expansion, Menagerie:

When gain effects: Camel Train, Sleigh, Sheepdog, Cavalry, Hostelry, Livery, Way of the Seal

When Buy effects:

Also,
Would you have made Holstery an overpay card if you could have?
No, because I no longer like doing when-buy triggers. The buy/gain distinction confuses too many people.
I totally disagree. We do design fan cards here, we are pretty familiar with the game and thus also deeply aware of the difference between gain and buy.
DXV disliking on Buy triggers has more to do with keeping the game simple rule-wise for casual players than anything else. This is a noble goal but utterly irrelevant for us Dominion geeks here.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #71 on: February 08, 2021, 04:17:29 pm »
+1

Yeah, not changing to on-gain for Offering. It has the potential to explode too much already. And there's the matter of having a hard-to-track effect. How many cards did you gain this turn? How much does that offer you now? I like the simpler on-buy approach better. Offering offers (lol) a +Buy to tie-in with that concept, so it wouldn't be, in my opinion, as confusing as Donald makes it out to be.

Speaking of which, Donald also said that Haggler once triggered on-gain. But it was too crazy and made it on-buy. He hasn't changed that at all during Hinterlands' revision, proving that such cards are okay to be in the game anyway.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #72 on: February 08, 2021, 04:20:55 pm »
+1

I would change it to an on-gain trigger since Donald X. is moving from on-buy to on-gain.

Doesn't that just apply to cases where they are similar -- i.e., primarily to cases where a card just does something when it's bought/gained?

Here, the card cares about other cards being gained or bought, in which case it makes a large difference.
Here, let's look at when Buy/when gain triggers in the newest expansion, Menagerie:

When gain effects: Camel Train, Sleigh, Sheepdog, Cavalry, Hostelry, Livery, Way of the Seal

When Buy effects:

Also,
Would you have made Holstery an overpay card if you could have?
No, because I no longer like doing when-buy triggers. The buy/gain distinction confuses too many people.
I totally disagree. We do design fan cards here, we are pretty familiar with the game and thus also deeply aware of the difference between gain and buy.
DXV disliking on Buy triggers has more to do with keeping the game simple rule-wise for casual players than anything else. This is a noble goal but utterly irrelevant for us Dominion geeks here.
big agree here. dxv saying he's not going to do overpay because it's too wordy for casual players does not mean I'm never going to touch the mechanic again; if anything, the opposite - that means the rest of the domain of overpay is ours to play around with and we should see what we can do with it (likewise, on-buy).
« Last Edit: February 08, 2021, 04:25:23 pm by spineflu »
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #73 on: February 08, 2021, 04:25:36 pm »
+1

I actually think that some of the recent changes sacrificed balance for simplicity. Livery is a neat example for a card that would arguably be more balanced if it were worded like it Coffers mirror image Merchant Guild: triggering on buy and featuring the old „while this is in play“ wording“ to be non-Throne-able.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #74 on: February 08, 2021, 04:42:55 pm »
0

I agree except that balance isn't a coherent concept so it's totally unclear whether Livery triggering on-gain is good or bad.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #75 on: February 09, 2021, 12:50:56 am »
0

With balance I mean power level. Livery does have the cost restriction to limit its craziness but Mastermind-Livery-Populate illustrates the issue of the card.
I think that the card would be absolutely fine and still a decent or strong $5 if it were on buy instead of on gain.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 01:50:15 am by segura »
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #76 on: February 09, 2021, 11:52:38 am »
+2

I realize I forgot to post a 24 hour warning, so I'm going to extend the contest by 1 day until Thursday 00:01 Forum Time.

That makes this your:

36 HOURS DEADLINE WARNING

Sometime before or shortly after then, I plan to make a post with the latest version of all the entries, in order to not miss anything. I'll then edit that with my thoughts and make a separate (so it's NEW) post with the winners.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 12:30:44 pm by scolapasta »
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics Week 1: Worshippers
« Reply #77 on: February 10, 2021, 02:21:59 am »
+3

OK, here's the post with the 12 entries for the contest so far (there's still ~22 hours til deadline!). Please check to make sure I have the correct version of your card.

ALERT: @Commodore Chuckles, your entry (Miracle Worker) is no longer available from imgur. If you want it included for judgement, please post the it again in the thread.


Fan Card Mechanics Week 1: Worshippers


Mendicant - spineflu

This definitely started out too strong, so the nerfing helps a bit.

At first, I was wary of being able to trash a $4/$5 card for 4/5 Worshippers, but, then again you have to use a buy for that card, and then trash it. And that's a one time thing, (unlike playing Apse Chapel more than twice). To start, you'd want to use it to trash Estates for +2 Worshippers, of course.

My biggest concern is luck factor, you draw it with an Estate in hand, vs if I draw it with only Coppers. Feels like that could become a fairly big advantage.




Midnight Ritual - Xen3k

I have a soft spot for Night cards. I like that you want to discard bad cards to hand out copies to others, but then you can't use any Worshippers you already have on them that turn. (this could into play with the Curse it gains, for example).

I wonder though, if it wouldn't play that differently with just "trash 2 cards from your hand" instead of Worshippers, especially given that you have the other options. At the very least, I might consider reducing it to two options.




Pilgrims' Hostel - emtzalex

Nice, simple Village+. And similar to Midnight Ritual, you have to dicard the junk to gain the Worshipper, so you have to wait a while to trash it. It also creates an interest decision on whether you use them for your Estates first, possibly limiting how many you get, or Coppers, which of course, are better than Estates.




Missionary - Timinou

A card that grants Worshippers to your opponents! I like that it uses two different methods to basically allow players to trash any cards they want. (and while chapel as "trash 2 cards" is very weak, since this lets you trash any two it works well.




Quote
Sort-of-Butcher - Action, $3 cost.
+1 Action
+1 Worshipper

This turn, when you trash a card, you may remove any number of your Worshippers. If you remove any, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than the trashed card per Worshipper removed.
Sort-of-Butcher - Aquila

Hmmm, a way to use Worshippers for something other than trashing! I like it - especially since it requires you to trash a card (maybe with a different Worshipper). i.e one Worshipper let's you trash a card, 2 lets you Upgrade it, 3 lets you Remodel, etc. This adds an interesting decision for when to "spend" the Worshippers. I wonder what it would be like if it trashed a card itself (instead of "when you trash")? So in its most basic form, using the Worshipper immediately, it'd be like a cheaper upgrade (that doesn't draw). Or you could keep the Worshipper to use as a 2nd trash or for a future play of itself.

For the record, I like the suggested name Chef, as it was pointed out gives an alternative meaning to the concept of Worshippers, for a card that gives an alternative use for them.



Miracle Worker - Commodore Chuckles

Another fun way of deferring the decision to use Worshippers by having them determine how many you get next turn. My biggest concern is that you could get very many, very fast, but it would be fun to play test to determine if it's better to use them ASAP or keep them to more quickly get to 11 Worshippers (to trash starting deck, plus this card).




Martyr - Gubump

I feel like I keep repeating myself, but more interesting deferment. When you gain this, you could use both Worshippers to trash 2 Coppers (or better if you have estates in your hand), but maybe it's better to keep 1 to trash your Martyr, and get 2 more Worshippers...




Offering - X-tra

Independent of the Worshipper design, I like that this card rewards using additional buys, ie.. buy 1 card for 6, or 2 cards for 7. It's a nice touch that it gives you the Worshipper to eventually clear the copper you gained. (also good decision to give it a potion cost).




Saint - Fragasnap

As pointed out, at face value looks similar to Marty. But with a different vanilla bonus and a modified below the line, this would play differently. (e.g. Martyr gives you Worshippers if you buy it as an opener, this one (usually) does not)

In an actual expansion, you likely wouldn't see both these cards, but for a design contest, it's great to have these variants. I probably give this one a small edge, because it feels interesting to vary the # of Worshippers, but only actual playtesting would really determine it.




Shrine - gambit05

Our first (and only) Reaction entry. The Reaction feels like a clever attempt to mitigate hand size attack as playing it gets your hand size to 3. (so the net affect of Militia, for example, would be to +1 Worshipper. For Torturer, however, it wouldn't mitigate much, you'd still discard two cards, then choose to gain the Curse you could then trash with the Worshipper? I don't know, overall feels a little weak, maybe without the discarding on play to buff it a little?




Heretic - silverspawn

I agree with the feedback that this seems similar to giving the -1 token. The biggest difference being that once all the Curses are out, then (assuming no other trashing in the kingdom) your opponents can now begin to trash other weak cards. But I'm not sure if that feels different enough to me.





Eternal Sacrifice - mathdude

In some ways (except for the +$2) this feels closest to Chapel. you trash up to 3 instead of up to 4 (but the third is more powerful). I'm not sure how it would play, but I would think it might be more interesting if you only got the Worshipper of you trashed both cards. Or maybe something like trashing 1 gets you the Worshipper, trashing 2 gets you the +$2 (or some other bonus). It would make it feel more "sacrificial".







« Last Edit: February 14, 2021, 12:54:32 am by scolapasta »
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #78 on: February 11, 2021, 06:07:23 pm »
+1

Thanks for the alert. I've updated the OP, and here is my entry again for good measure:

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics Week 1: Worshippers
« Reply #79 on: February 12, 2021, 12:13:18 pm »
0

OK, here's the post with the 12 entries for the contest so far (there's still ~22 hours til deadline!).

It's been about 58 hours.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2021, 12:46:45 pm by Gubump »
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #80 on: February 12, 2021, 01:00:19 pm »
+2

It's been about 58 hours.

Ha, yeah, sorry, I should've known that setting a weekday deadline would be challenging. I'll try to get to judging tonight / tomorrow.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics Week 1: Worshippers
« Reply #81 on: February 13, 2021, 11:41:27 pm »
+3

Hi all, thanks for your patience.

A lot of great entries, all of which I'd have fun trying out and play testing. I hope my judging is OK, I basically went with my gut feel about each cards pros and cons, and their overall strength.

(see the previous post for the specific feedback per card)

I found it interesting that no one submitted any landscape cards for the contest. Nor for that matter any split piles, heirlooms, non supply piles, etc. All of the entries were standard Kingdom cards, and in fact, all but one were Action cards.

A few general thoughts I have about Worshippers:

Worshippers can be quite strong - you'll notice Apse Chapel, which is meant to "compete" with Chapel, only gives you 2. So, one of my measures for judging was to make sure you couldn't get too many too fast.

As Aquila pointing out, designing them so that it's worth being +1 Worshipper instead of "trash a card from your hand" is challenging. Sure you'd get to play that copper first, but it's not that different. So that was another criteria on my judging. (as an example, Mendicant by spineflu works significantly better with Worshippers than if it let you (or forced you to) trash x cards from your hand).

Eventually, they become fairly worthless - though they let you trash the card that generates them. Again using Apse Chapel as an example, when you're done with it, you can just trash it. So another measure is if the card has reason to stay around other than for the Worshippers.

An interest take that a couple of the entries have is granting Worshippers to your opponent. I find that an innovative idea that did not occur to me.

OK, so on to the judging:

Finalists:
Pilgrims' Hostel - emtzalex
Missionary - Timinou
Sort-of-Butcher - Aquila
Offering - X-tra

AND THE WINNER IS...


Pilgrims' Hostel by emtzalex

I like the simplicity, and that I think it would create interesting decisions.

Congratulations! And great cards everyone; thanks for generating some fun ideas for me to try and play test!

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics Week 1: Worshippers
« Reply #82 on: February 14, 2021, 05:44:59 pm »
+1

Pilgrims' Hostel by emtzalex

I like the simplicity, and that I think it would create interesting decisions.

Congratulations! And great cards everyone; thanks for generating some fun ideas for me to try and play test!

Wow. Thanks scolapasta. I'm glad you liked it.

I'll try to have the next contest/mechanic out within a few hours.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics Week 1: Worshippers
« Reply #83 on: February 14, 2021, 06:23:45 pm »
+2

I found it interesting that no one submitted any landscape cards for the contest. Nor for that matter any split piles, heirlooms, non supply piles, etc. All of the entries were standard Kingdom cards, and in fact, all but one were Action cards.

I actually kept playing with the mechanic, and came up with an Event:


Quote
Consecration - $4
Event
+1 Worshipper. Trash a Curse from the
Supply. If you do, +1 VP.

The main impetus with this is that one thing I sometimes don't like is that if there is a strong curser (like Witch or Mountebank) on the Supply I feel like you are forced to buy it, even if you would otherwise be buy only non-terminal cards, as giving some of the Curses is the most efficient way from being buried by them (barring really great trashing).

Consecration provides a (potentially) effective alternative. Each time you buy it you mitigate the effects of 2-3 Curses--one gets trashed before it can be given, one can be trashed by the Worshipper, and one (although still a dead card) is counteracted by the VP token. Just buying 1 doesn't render the curser totally useless, and buying enough to completely counteract the curser is pretty burdensome. Also, there is some use to the player who buys the curser, as once the Curses are gone, she can pick up the Worshipper to trash the curser (if she has no other trashing).
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics Week 2: Conditions
« Reply #84 on: February 15, 2021, 03:42:38 am »
+2


Fan Card Mechanics Week 2: Conditions

Conditions are a brand new type of card-shaped object with a landscape orientation. Conditions are two-sided. I haven't completely settled on how to determine which side starts face up. For now, and for the purpose of the contest, the first side listed (i.e. Easy Living, Warm, Rainy) starts face up. Unlike Artifacts or States, Conditions are never taken or held by a specific player. Rather, they remain in the center of the table, are flipped to the same side for all players, and thus affect all players the same. I have created three, two-sided Conditions for my "Summertime" fan expansion.

Easy Living/Hard Times:

Warm/Cool:

Rainy/Dry:

Conditions can be flipped by the operation of cards or card-shaped objects. Some cards resolve differently depending on which side of a Condition is face up. For example:


Quote
Vanilla Orchard - $4
Action - Conditional
+1 Card
+1 Action
If it's Warm and Rainy: +1 Card
If it's Warm and Dry: +1 Action
If it's Cool and Rainy: +$1
If it's Cool and Dry: +1 Buy
Flip Warm/Cool or Rainy/Dry.

Cards like Vanilla Orchard that require a Condition to work should have the type "Conditional" so players can know to use the proper Condition in the game, and to look to it to resolve the card. At segura's brilliant suggestion, I changed the wording from "If Rainy is face up..." to "If it's Rainy..." While this creates slightly awkward wording for "Easy Living" and "Hard Times," I think it's worth it for the simplicity, and the "Conditional" type indicates what is meant.

If you want to see more, you can look at my whole Summertime expansion, which makes fairly extensive use of the mechanic.

The goal of the contest is to create a card or card-shaped object that uses the Condition mechanic. If it's a card, it should probably have the Conditional type.

You can use one or more of my Conditions, use one or more your create yourself, of use a combination thereof. I made the Condition cards using the "New Fork" of Violet CLM's Dominion Card Image Generator, including using an "Extra Custom" color. If you want to use that tool to make your own Condition, you can use this as a template.

While the Conditions I created have no innate effect on the game, I'm not sure that needs to be a rule. Feel free to create your own Conditions with one or both sides having an effect on the game. Off the top of my head, such a condition might: raise or lower the price of a card, group of cards, or card-shaped object; change the base hand-size; change how or to where cards are gained. Just keep in mind that the effect will be universal and immediate, and consider how the timing of the card flipping and something new taking effect will work.

I think I would like to just get right into it. Please let me know if you have any questions or want any further explanation. I look forward to seeing the submissions.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #85 on: February 15, 2021, 07:44:26 am »
+1

Quote
Weatherman
$4 - Action - Duration - Conditional
At the start of your next turn: +2 Cards. Then, if it's Rainy, you may discard 2 cards for $2. Otherwise, trash a card from your hand.
-
In games using this, when you gain a treasure, you may flip Rainy/Dry.
With this, the player on your right can choose what effect you get if they gain a treasure on their turn.


I think whether you use "Otherwise" or "If it's Dry" can possibly change what the card does here.
Say you play this card, then on your next turn Rainy is face up, so you discard a Tunnel and another card and gain a Gold. You gained a treasure so you flip Dry face up. If it said "If it's Dry", then you should also be able to trash a card, but since it says "Otherwise", you can't have both. (Am I right about this?)
« Last Edit: February 16, 2021, 02:35:33 am by LibraryAdventurer »
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spineflu

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #86 on: February 15, 2021, 12:08:50 pm »
+1




Quote
Slipway • $5 • Action - Duration
Now and at the start of your next turn: If it's High Tide, you may discard a Treasure for +3 Cards; If it's Low Tide, you may discard an Action for +$3.

When you discard this from play, turn High Tide / Low Tide over.

Seaside-themed $5 duration. If you time it right/wrong, you might do a thing you didn't intend to do.

I hope someone makes a Rabbit Season / Duck Season condition.


Here's my b-sides for last contest; they weren't tested (and are probably bad):

« Last Edit: February 15, 2021, 01:58:12 pm by spineflu »
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emtzalex

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #87 on: February 15, 2021, 01:22:38 pm »
+1

I think whether you use "Otherwise" or "If it's Dry" can possibly change what the card does here.
Say you play this card, then on your next turn Rainy is face up, so you discard a Tunnel and another card and gain a Gold. You gained a treasure so you flip Dry face up. If it said "If it's Dry", then you should also be able to trash a card, but since it says "Otherwise", you can't have both. (Am I right about this?)

I think that's right. It was certainly my intention in all of the cards I designed to have each one resolve under one side of a Condition only, and then have any flip happen as part of that resolution, either before or after the conditional effects. I don't think that should be an absolute rule, as there might be a really great design that allows players to take certain steps to get multiple benefits. It's my inclination is to default to the game's rules of resolving each step of a card in order, even if how a later step resolves is different because of it. (Rats immediately comes to mind as an official-card example of this). This is part of a card's design, and definitely something that needs to be considered.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #88 on: February 15, 2021, 02:57:29 pm »
+1

I'm struggling to see how the Conditional type is justified, unless a card ever needs to interact with them specifically. Each different card needs its own set of conditions, so the Conditional type isn't really doing one common thing, and there's no unseen rule that needs explaining.

Looter, for instance, explains not just adding the Ruins to the game, but also 10 per player, shuffled, and only the top one is visible. Players can refer to the rulebook to be reminded of all those unseen extra rules.

Artifacts, by comparison, don't need a type, nor anything with the journey token. You see them mentioned in the card's text, that prompts you to get them out the box, and that's it, no other rules.

Also, you can write which side starts face up on the relevant side of the Condition card itself.
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emtzalex

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #89 on: February 15, 2021, 04:02:52 pm »
0

I'm struggling to see how the Conditional type is justified, unless a card ever needs to interact with them specifically.

I went back and forth on this. There are a couple of reasons I settled on having a type. First, I do think I might some day want to create a card-shaped object that interacts with Conditional cards (like a Project or Duration that lets you flip a Condition in response to a Conditional being played). I also think it is more important with the current grammar I am using, as the pronoun "it" might be ambiguous, and the Conditional type directs players to look for a Condition. For example:



Quote
When you play this, if it's Easy Living...

To a player who hasn't used Conditions before, they might think that the "it" referred to is "this" and the language is checking to see if the card is being emulated by another card called Easy Living. I recognize that this is not a great example, as the "When you play this" language is unnecessary (and will come out of future versions). But this possibility still exists. For example if you used a mechanic like the one in Farming Village "Reveal cards . . . Put that card into your hand..." followed by "If it's Rainy..." the phrase "it's" would seem to refer to the card you put in your hand. That could even be true (although maybe less so) with a simple +1 Card. That said, your point about States and Artifacts is well taken, and I'll definitely give this more thought.

Also, you can write which side starts face up on the relevant side of the Condition card itself.

I totally agree that if there is a fixed side that starts face up, that should be printed on that side. When I created these I had not yet decided that (the other thing I was thinking of was making the physical cards out of a harder material that could be flipped like a coin to randomly determine which side started face up), and I am still not completely sure that's how I want it to work, so my mock-ups don't have that text.
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LittleFish

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #90 on: February 15, 2021, 04:22:13 pm »
0

I'm struggling to see how the Conditional type is justified, unless a card ever needs to interact with them specifically. Each different card needs its own set of conditions, so the Conditional type isn't really doing one common thing, and there's no unseen rule that needs explaining.

Looter, for instance, explains not just adding the Ruins to the game, but also 10 per player, shuffled, and only the top one is visible. Players can refer to the rulebook to be reminded of all those unseen extra rules.

Artifacts, by comparison, don't need a type, nor anything with the journey token. You see them mentioned in the card's text, that prompts you to get them out the box, and that's it, no other rules.

Also, you can write which side starts face up on the relevant side of the Condition card itself.
But then there's also Fate/Doom cards to bring out Boons/Hexes, even though the cards already mention them.
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Gubump

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #91 on: February 15, 2021, 04:51:46 pm »
+1

I'm struggling to see how the Conditional type is justified, unless a card ever needs to interact with them specifically. Each different card needs its own set of conditions, so the Conditional type isn't really doing one common thing, and there's no unseen rule that needs explaining.

Looter, for instance, explains not just adding the Ruins to the game, but also 10 per player, shuffled, and only the top one is visible. Players can refer to the rulebook to be reminded of all those unseen extra rules.

Artifacts, by comparison, don't need a type, nor anything with the journey token. You see them mentioned in the card's text, that prompts you to get them out the box, and that's it, no other rules.

Also, you can write which side starts face up on the relevant side of the Condition card itself.
But then there's also Fate/Doom cards to bring out Boons/Hexes, even though the cards already mention them.

They don't refer to specific Boons or Hexes, though. Giving cards the Conditional type is more analogous to giving cards that give out Artifacts a type.
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Xen3k

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #92 on: February 15, 2021, 11:23:41 pm »
+2



Quote
Swallow - $4
Action - Conditional
+1 Card
+1 Action
If it is Warm, discard a card. If it is an Action card, gain a Swallow. Otherwise +1 Card.
If it is Cool, discard 2 cards. If at least one is a Treasure, +$2. Otherwise +$1.
Heirloom: Coconut
Quote
Coconut - $2
Treasure - Heirloom
$1
You may flip Warm/Cool to return a Swallow you have in play to the supply for +2VP. If you do, trash a Duchy or Estate from the supply.

A cross between Fugitive and Magpie variant. Swallow is certainly weaker when it is Cool, but not overly so. I have the Swallows returning to the supply instead of trashing to allow the following players an opportunity to pick it up and for flavor purposes. The 2 VP gain may be too much, but I was worried 1VP would not be as appealing. Feedback is more than appreciated.

Edit: Nerfed it. Now Warm mode acts as a not-quite-a-Fugitive, and only when not gaining more Swallows. Cool mode will now still give you 1 coin even if you only discard junk.

Edit 2: Added a clause to Coconut where you need to trash an Estate or Duchy from the supply when you gain VP tokens to prevent an infinite VP token game with perpetually migrating Swallows.

Quote
Old Version
« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 11:59:27 pm by Xen3k »
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LittleFish

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #93 on: February 15, 2021, 11:28:24 pm »
+1



Quote
Swallow - $4
Action
+2 Card
+1 Action
If it is Warm, discard a card. If it is a Treasure or Action card, gain a Swallow.
If it is Cool, discard 2 cards. If at least one is a Treasure or Action card, +$2.
Heirloom: Coconut
Quote
Coconut - $2
Treasure - Heirloom
$1
You may flip Warm/Cool to return a Swallow you have in play to the supply for +2VP.

A cross between Fugitive and Magpie. Swallow is certainly weaker when it is Cool, but not overly so. I have the Swallows returning to the supply instead of trashing to allow the following players an opportunity to pick it up and for flavor purposes. The 2 VP gain may be too much, but I was worried 1VP would not be as appealing. Feedback is more than appreciated.
Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?
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Gubump

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #94 on: February 15, 2021, 11:31:58 pm »
+1



Swallow is too strong. By default, it's a Fugitive that can gain more Fugitives, and you can just leave it that way for the entire game. Fugitive by itself would be a powerful , and this is way better than that.

I love the Monty Python reference, though.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2021, 11:33:59 pm by Gubump »
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Xen3k

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #95 on: February 15, 2021, 11:37:14 pm »
0



Swallow is too strong. By default, it's a Fugitive that can gain more Fugitives, and you can just leave it that way for the entire game. Fugitive by itself would be a powerful , and this is way better than that.

I love the Monty Python reference, though.

Fair. I was not sure I could get away with a Fugitive baseline. I'll rework it a bit.
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emtzalex

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #96 on: February 16, 2021, 02:21:33 pm »
0

I'm struggling to see how the Conditional type is justified, unless a card ever needs to interact with them specifically. Each different card needs its own set of conditions, so the Conditional type isn't really doing one common thing, and there's no unseen rule that needs explaining.

Looter, for instance, explains not just adding the Ruins to the game, but also 10 per player, shuffled, and only the top one is visible. Players can refer to the rulebook to be reminded of all those unseen extra rules.

Artifacts, by comparison, don't need a type, nor anything with the journey token. You see them mentioned in the card's text, that prompts you to get them out the box, and that's it, no other rules.

Also, you can write which side starts face up on the relevant side of the Condition card itself.
But then there's also Fate/Doom cards to bring out Boons/Hexes, even though the cards already mention them.

They don't refer to specific Boons or Hexes, though. Giving cards the Conditional type is more analogous to giving cards that give out Artifacts a type.

I'm not totally wedded to the Conditional type and will definitely keep thinking on it. I won't judge anyone down for not including it (not that I could currently as none of the submissions thus far have used it).
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LittleFish

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #97 on: February 17, 2021, 01:19:30 pm »
+1

I just wanted to mention that all of the cards that use a single condition could just instead use the Journey token (other than for theme purposes). Someone pls correct if I'm wrong.
Conditions are for everyone, not just one person
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BBobb

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #98 on: February 17, 2021, 01:20:33 pm »
0

I just wanted to mention that all of the cards that use a single condition could just instead use the Journey token (other than for theme purposes). Someone pls correct if I'm wrong.
Conditions are for everyone, not just one person
Thank you, I totally forgot about that! I'll remove my post.
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Hand - King's Court, Ruined Village, Estate, Copper, Possession
Turn -
BBobb plays King's Court
… and plays a Ruined Village.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined Village again.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined village a third time.
… … getting +1 Action.
BBobb plays a Copper.
BBobb buys a Poor House.
(BBobb draws: 2 King's Courts and 3 Possessions)
BBobb=GOD

emtzalex

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #99 on: February 18, 2021, 03:53:29 pm »
+2

~~~Halfway Mark~~~

It's been (a few minutes more than) 3 1/2 of the 7 days of the contest. So far it's been a little light on submissions. I recognize that the contest has only been running on weekdays, which might be part of the reason people have not yet submitted. It also may have been a mistake to start it at almost the exact same time as the Weekly Design Contest. The next person might consider delaying the start (possibly with a 2-3 day discussion of the mechanic as suggested by scolapasta and foolishly ignored by me).

If you haven't posted yet, don't worry. I'm hoping most of the submissions are yet to come, and that we'll get a rush at the end on Saturday/Sunday. If I can answer any questions or give any further explanation to help people out, please don't hesitate to ask. And if you just don't like the mechanic or don't find it interesting, that's on me, and I apologize.

I'm looking forward to seeing what else you all will come up with.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2021, 03:56:03 pm by emtzalex »
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scolapasta

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #100 on: February 19, 2021, 01:24:58 am »
+1

Current version (with its notes):





Original version:

OK, here's an attempt - it needs some work (see my comments below), but let's see what y'all think of v0.1:

During Peacetime, you're building up your Garrison, and during Wartime, you attack!




Quote
Garrison - $4
+2 Villagers

You can remove a token from your Villagers to flip Peacetime / Wartime.

If it's Peacetime, +1 Card.

If it's Wartime, remove any number of tokens from your Villagers and each other player discards a card per token removed, then draws a card per each 2 cards discarded (round down).

In Peacetime it's a Village+. Often in practice, it will be exactly the same as Village, but if you can find a way to save those Villagers (or get them from elsewhere), you can flip to Wartime and have a Militia like (discard) attack:
Discard 1
Discard 2, draw 1
Discard 3, draw 1
Discard 4, draw 2
Discard 5, draw 2
etc.

You can have an attack more severe than Militia, it will take some time to build up and you don't get any benefit yourself*. To counter that, if do play another Garrison, you could back to Peacetime and use it as a cantrip.  (is that enough of a counter?)

And if you do leave it as Wartime, you enables your opponent(s) to have a stronger attack.

Originally, I didn't have the draw clause, but of course that could leave your opponent handless.

However, you could still accomplish this if:

• it's already Wartime
• you have 3 garrisons
• you have 3 actions / villagers to play them
• you start with 3 villagers already

In that scenario you make opponents discard 5, draw 2; then discard 2, draw 1, then discard 1. So probably it needs something to not allow this to happen... Something to sleep on...




« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 10:39:34 am by scolapasta »
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Gubump

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #101 on: February 19, 2021, 01:34:43 am »
+2

OK, here's an attempt - it needs some work (see my comments below), but let's see what y'all think of v0.1:

During Peacetime, you're building up your Garrison, and during Wartime, you attack!




Quote
Garrison - $4
+2 Villagers

You can remove a token from your Villagers to flip Peacetime / Wartime.

If it's Peacetime, +1 Card.

If it's Wartime, remove any number of tokens from your Villagers and each other player discards a card per token removed, then draws a card per each 2 cards discarded (round down).

In Peacetime it's a Village+. Often in practice, it will be exactly the same as Village, but if you can find a way to save those Villagers (or get them from elsewhere), you can flip to Wartime and have a Militia like (discard) attack:
Discard 1
Discard 2, draw 1
Discard 3, draw 1
Discard 4, draw 2
Discard 5, draw 2
etc.

You can have an attack more severe than Militia, it will take some time to build up and you don't get any benefit yourself*. To counter that, if do play another Garrison, you could back to Peacetime and use it as a cantrip.  (is that enough of a counter?)

And if you do leave it as Wartime, you enables your opponent(s) to have a stronger attack.

Originally, I didn't have the draw clause, but of course that could leave your opponent handless.

However, you could still accomplish this if:

• it's already Wartime
• you have 3 garrisons
• you have 3 actions / villagers to play them
• you start with 3 villagers already

In that scenario you make opponents discard 5, draw 2; then discard 2, draw 1, then discard 1. So probably it needs something to not allow this to happen... Something to sleep on...

1. +1 Card, +2 Villagers is already an insane by itself, imo. This is way too strong for .
2. You can pin your opponents by stacking enough of these, which is easy to do with how many Villagers they amass.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #102 on: February 19, 2021, 03:40:33 am »
0

1. +1 Card, +2 Villagers is already an insane by itself, imo.
While I agree with your assessment of the card, I doubt that +1 Card, +2 Villagers would be overpowered at $5.

Why? Because DXV considered a cantrip Villager Village, i.e. +1 Card +1 Action +1 Villager, and viewed it as $4.5:

Quote
There was a village that was, cantrip, +1 Villager; man it's fine, you can argue about, does it need to cost $5, but it's nice.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #103 on: February 19, 2021, 07:27:47 am »
+1

A split pile, 5 Fletchers on top of 5 Bowyers, with Peaceful starting face up:
Quote
Fletcher - Action Attack, $3 cost.
+1 Card
+1 Action

If it's Peaceful, +1 Card.
Each other player discards an Estate (or reveals they can't).
Flip Peaceful/Troubling over.
Quote
Bowyer - Action Attack, $5 cost.
+1 Buy
+ $2

If it's Troubling, choose one: gain a Silver to your hand; or trash a Silver from your hand for + $4.
Each other player discards a Silver (or reveals they can't).
You may flip Peaceful/Troubling over.
I started with cantrip lab every other play, so the Condition is like a shared journey token. Not quite interesting enough, so then I went split pile with the bottom half triggering on the other side, play starts with the top bit then changes up later. Then I added the attacks for scouting - you benefit when players can't discard - so you can see which side to leave Peaceful/Troubling with Bowyer to hinder the opponents. Finally I made Bowyer's conditional bonus fit nicely with its attack.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #104 on: February 19, 2021, 08:47:05 am »
+1

I think the handsize attack on Garrison would be better if there was a floor, e.g. opponents discard as many cards as the number of Villagers you spend, but then DtX (perhaps 3 cards).  In any case, I think it would still need to cost $5.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #105 on: February 19, 2021, 12:47:26 pm »
+2

Here is my stab at using Conditions.  I was too lazy to create my own Conditions, so this uses the Rainy/Dry conditions.



Rainmaker is a Workshop variant when it is Rainy, and a Throne Room/Vassal hybrid when it is Dry.  You can stack these so that you can gain an Action card costing up to $4 and play it twice. 

I'm not entirely sure about the power level.  When it's Rainy, it's basically a non-terminal Armory which seems fine for $5.  When it's Dry, it can be either a non-terminal Throne Room variant or a non-terminal Silver; the latter seems a bit weak if you only have one Rainmaker in hand.

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Gubump

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #106 on: February 19, 2021, 12:56:16 pm »
0

1. +1 Card, +2 Villagers is already an insane by itself, imo.
While I agree with your assessment of the card, I doubt that +1 Card, +2 Villagers would be overpowered at $5.

Why? Because DXV considered a cantrip Villager Village, i.e. +1 Card +1 Action +1 Villager, and viewed it as $4.5:

Quote
There was a village that was, cantrip, +1 Villager; man it's fine, you can argue about, does it need to cost $5, but it's nice.

2 Villagers is a LOT better than just one.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #107 on: February 19, 2021, 04:05:37 pm »
+1

True that. But 2 Villagers is not a lot better than an Action and one Villager. Especially so if you most likely do have to spend that 2nd Villager immediately.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #108 on: February 19, 2021, 04:16:52 pm »
0

1. +1 Card, +2 Villagers is already an insane by itself, imo. This is way too strong for .
2. You can pin your opponents by stacking enough of these, which is easy to do with how many Villagers they amass.

1. +1 Card, +2 Villagers is already an insane by itself, imo.
While I agree with your assessment of the card, I doubt that +1 Card, +2 Villagers would be overpowered at $5.

Why? Because DXV considered a cantrip Villager Village, i.e. +1 Card +1 Action +1 Villager, and viewed it as $4.5:

Quote
There was a village that was, cantrip, +1 Villager; man it's fine, you can argue about, does it need to cost $5, but it's nice.

I think the handsize attack on Garrison would be better if there was a floor, e.g. opponents discard as many cards as the number of Villagers you spend, but then DtX (perhaps 3 cards).  In any case, I think it would still need to cost $5.

1. +1 Card, +2 Villagers is already an insane by itself, imo.
While I agree with your assessment of the card, I doubt that +1 Card, +2 Villagers would be overpowered at $5.

Why? Because DXV considered a cantrip Villager Village, i.e. +1 Card +1 Action +1 Villager, and viewed it as $4.5:

Quote
There was a village that was, cantrip, +1 Villager; man it's fine, you can argue about, does it need to cost $5, but it's nice.

2 Villagers is a LOT better than just one.

OK! Clearly we agree that the attack that can pin your opponents doesn't work. I really wanted (still want) to make an attack that you could scale up work, but I'm not seeing it yet.

I had considered the "draw up to x" answer, but feels like that eliminates the scaling - generally, when would you ever have them discard more than 2 then, as your Villagers are probably more valuable than to be used for discard 1, draw 1 attacks. Though I guess that also happens in the current version for even # of villagers...

I also thought I could have "round up" as then you'd always have at least one. But you still could very much destroy their turn. Also all official cards that round, round down, so I think that would be confusing.

So I'm going to drop the scaling, for now, unless I think of something better. The new version has you remove just one Villager for a regular 'ol Militia style attack. (if it's already Wartime)

Re: the strength of two villagers. I don't know. I mean they are valuable, of course, but only if you save them, And if you do, then this card just is +1 card that turn... So I agree 4 is to cheap, but I think I'll try it at $5 and see what y'all think.  (I also considered changing it to +1 Card, +1 Action, +1 Villager in Peacetime and may still do something like that:

So if it's Peacetime:
• Village+ or Militia attack (without any bonus)
if it's Wartime:
• Militia attack with +1 Villager instead of +$2, or you don't "attack" and just keep both Villagers, or you have a Cantrip+ (by flipping to Peacetime):


Quote
Garrison - $4
+2 Villagers

You may remove a token from your Villagers to flip Peacetime / Wartime.

If it's Peacetime, +1 Card.

If it's Wartime, you may remove a token from your Villagers. If you do, each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.

Better? (one thing I like about it is that a card that was just "+1 Card, +2 Villagers" feels a little boring, so this allws for that while adding a whole other component. But you could have a "peaceful" game were all it ever did was act that way)



Quote
...
Flip Peaceful/Troubling over.

Interesting that Aquila chose a similar theme to his condition. While we both designed ours to be independent, I imagine in a real set, these would use the same condition (or one would change the names / theme).
« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 10:40:18 am by scolapasta »
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #109 on: February 20, 2021, 11:41:41 am »
+1

Ok, here's my submission, sort of tied into Summertime (though this is after Summer ends):


Quote
Autumn Harvest
Type: Action-Conditional
Cost: $4
+1 Action
If it is Barren: +2 Cards, discard 2 cards.
If it is Plentiful: +4 Cards, discard 2 cards; each other player draws a card.
-
When you discard this from play, if you haven't already this turn, flip Barren/Plentiful.



It's non-terminal.
So when it's Barren, it starts as a Lab, but reduces your hand size.  This is fine if you have a bit of green or other junk, to improve what's left in your hand.  But you don't want to play multiples (definitely not more than 2 in a turn, I think).
But when it's Plentiful, it starts as a super-Lab, and ends as a Lab (for 4-cost)!  This would be great to play a whole bunch of them, except that it gives your opponents an extra card every time you play it.

The Condition card - Barren/Plentiful - doesn't flip until Clean-up, and then only once per turn.  So all Autumn Harvest cards you play in a turn will follow the same condition.  And flipping is not optional, but it shouldn't matter.  If you have just used it while Barren and are setting up your opponent for using super-Labs, that will let you draw extra cards for your next turn.  But if you just used it while Plentiful, that means your opponent won't be able to do much with it.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #110 on: February 20, 2021, 03:12:47 pm »
+2

Autumn Harvest
Type: Action-Conditional
Cost: $4
+1 Action
If it is Barren: +2 Cards, discard 2 cards.
If it is Plentiful: +4 Cards, discard 2 cards; each other player draws a card.
-
When you discard this from play, if you haven't already this turn, flip Barren/Plentiful.
So for a big chunk of the game in 2-player, one person will play it with Barren every time and the other player will play it with plentiful every time. I suggest something different for flipping the condition.

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #111 on: February 20, 2021, 03:26:37 pm »
0

Autumn Harvest
Type: Action-Conditional
Cost: $4
+1 Action
If it is Barren: +2 Cards, discard 2 cards.
If it is Plentiful: +4 Cards, discard 2 cards; each other player draws a card.
-
When you discard this from play, if you haven't already this turn, flip Barren/Plentiful.
So for a big chunk of the game in 2-player, one person will play it with Barren every time and the other player will play it with plentiful every time. I suggest something different for flipping the condition.
If both players are running full-deck engines and actually get them firing regularly, that could be the case.  But if that doesn't work in your favour (for whichever side of the Condition you land on), then you just omit playing your Autumn Harvest one turn and see if that helps.  However, until you get the engines running, both players won't be playing the card every turn.  Also, as mentioned in my OP, buying a few of these would likely get in the way of creating an engine and getting it running.  I think the flip condition should be okay.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #112 on: February 20, 2021, 03:57:04 pm »
+1

Autumn Harvest
Type: Action-Conditional
Cost: $4
+1 Action
If it is Barren: +2 Cards, discard 2 cards.
If it is Plentiful: +4 Cards, discard 2 cards; each other player draws a card.
-
When you discard this from play, if you haven't already this turn, flip Barren/Plentiful.
So for a big chunk of the game in 2-player, one person will play it with Barren every time and the other player will play it with plentiful every time. I suggest something different for flipping the condition.

I thought this too, but consider it more like an artifact race/tug-of-war and then its good actually
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics Week 2: Conditions
« Reply #113 on: February 21, 2021, 03:22:46 am »
+2

24 HOUR WARNING

Or at least, it's almost the 24 hour warning. The contest will end at 08:42:38 UTC (3:42 a.m. EST), but I'm going to bed. I'll try to do the judging within 24 hours of the contest closing, but 48 might be more realistic. I do want to make one point of clarification, which is that if you don't expressly state otherwise, I will presume that the first side listed when you talk about the condition as a whole is the side that start's face up (i.e. "Flip Rain/Dry" indicates Rainy starts face up). Again, please let me know if you have any questions.

Here are the entries so far (please let me know if I missed anyone):

LibraryAdventurer's Weatherman, using Rainy/Dry

spineflu's Slipway, using High Tide/Low Tide.

Xen3k's Swallow and its Heirloom, Coconut using Warm/Cool

scolapasta's Garrison using Peacetime/Wartime

Aquila's split pile of Fletcher and Bowyer, using Peaceful/Troubling

Timinou's Rainmaker, using Rainy/Dry

mathdude's Autumn Harvest, using Barren/Plentiful


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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #114 on: February 22, 2021, 03:54:43 am »
+2

Contest Closed

Since there weren't any submissions since the 24 hour deadline, I'll be using that list. Please double-check to make sure your entry is on there if you submitted one.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #115 on: February 24, 2021, 03:46:31 am »
+2

Sorry all, I tried to get this done within 48 hours, but I had a couple of big projects at work and I did not get to these as soon as I wanted.

I am nearly finished, and hope to get these done tomorrow night and be able to announce a winner by then.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics Week 2: Conditions
« Reply #116 on: February 25, 2021, 12:20:36 am »
+5

Sorry this took so long. It's my first time judging and I don't have a great sense of how long it takes or how much to say. I think some of these are a little long, but I did want to give a good amount of feedback. I hope my feedback is useful. I definitely appreciate everyone's participation, and the great ideas people have had for the Conditions mechanic.

Here we go:


Quote
Weatherman
$4 - Action - Duration - Conditional
At the start of your next turn: +2 Cards. Then, if it's Rainy, you may discard 2 cards for $2. Otherwise, trash a card from your hand.
-
In games using this, when you gain a treasure, you may flip Rainy/Dry.[/size]
LibraryAdventurer's Weatherman, using Rainy/Dry

Both of this card's possible effects are pretty strong, especially at the beginning of the game. Drawing before you trash widens the selection and mitigates the hand-reduction of trashing from hand. The optional Mill effect would be useful by itself, and is even better with the extra drawing. That being said, early in the game you will almost always prefer the trashing, and it is rarely going to be much of a burden for your opponent to take it away from you, since buying Treasure early in the game is usually a good option (except maybe at $5, depending what is in the Kingdom). The only reason not to switch off trashing when your opponent has a Weatherman in play is if you have played one of your own, but even then, your opponent could take the trashing and switch it off for you. I don't think this is a huge problem, as the card is pretty strong either way (which also means it is probably not worth forgoing a solid $5 Action or even a Weatherman [if you don't have one] to keep your opponent from trashing one time).

More broadly, the "in-games using this" mechanic is an interesting choice. Combined with the Duration I do think it makes it a bit too easy to mess with other player's effect, as the start of your turn is probably one of the times you are least likely to gain a Treasure (compared to, say, the Buy phase or the meat of the Action phase). That being said, I do think it has a lot of potential for a means to flip Conditions. I think a different trigger might work better with Weatherman (like the gain, trashing, or discarding of a Victory card, which would allow players to trigger the flip using Weatherman, and flip it later on when they start greening). I also think flipping with an Treasure on-gain could work with a different (probably non-duration) Conditional, (although it might get a bit annoying when playing online to be prompted every time you buy a Treasure to decide whether or not to flip it).





Quote
Slipway • $5 • Action - Duration
Now and at the start of your next turn: If it's High Tide, you may discard a Treasure for +3 Cards; If it's Low Tide, you may discard an Action for +$3.

When you discard this from play, turn High Tide / Low Tide over.

spineflu's Slipway, using High Tide/Low Tide.

First, I really like High Tide / Low Tide as a Condition. It's a great fit and very much in the spirit I was going for with Conditions. I also like the use of a Seaside theme. Before I discuss the card, there is one correction, as I think there should be a horizontal line before "When you discard this from play..." paragraph; see, e.g., Alchemist, Treasury, Travellers.

Slipway itself is quite a potent card. Both the effects it offers are powerful, and it gives two opportunities to get those effects. As a broad generalization, I think one would tend to prefer the Action-into-coins when the card is played (after playing a terminal action you may well want to turn any remaining Action into coins to spend in your imminent Buy phase, while the other effect could both cost you a Treasure and draw dead Action cards), and tend to prefer the Treasure-into-cards at the start of the next turn (where the fact that it does not cost you an Action means that it is functionally a Stables that always draws a Lab, or a Storyteller that treats every Treasure like a Gold).

The problem is, there is very little ability to control what you are going to get. Because this flips the Condition on discard, you have to wait until the end of your next turn to flip it, unless there is another High Tide / Low Tide Conditional, or a card that can flip any Condition. The only other possibility (presuming you add the horizontal line as suggested) is if there is a Way (other than Chameleon), which would allow you to play one Slipway for a different effect in order to discard it that turn and flip the Condition. The flip side (no pun intended) of not being able to change the Condition is that, except in a handful of circumstances, you know what the Condition will be. Generally, the only thing that can flip the condition before your Slipway resolves a second time is a Slipway that was played on a previous turn (either by you or your opponent), which you already know about. The only exception (besides those already listed) is if your opponent keeps her Slipway from being discarded using something like Scheme, Improve, or Bonfire. But even knowing what you are going to get, there's a pretty limited amount you can do about it. Unless you have a Royal Seal or Cargo Ship to put discard fodder into your hand, that knowledge is of pretty limited use.

In a way, that fits the flavor of the card really well: you can predict the tides well, but you cannot control them, all you can do is watch the tides roll in and out. While you definitely get style points for that, I am not sure it makes the card the most playable. One thing to consider could be cutting the cost to $4, and making the benefit occur "now or at the start of your next turn." If you take the effect immediately your Slipway will discard from play this turn, flipping the Condition sooner. Another option could make the flip either when discarded from play or from your hand not during clean-up. This would allow you to play a Slipway at Low Tide, discard a second Slipway for +$3 and flip the Condition, then get to discard a Treasure for +3 cards the following turn (if no opponent messes with it).





Quote
Swallow - $4
Action - Conditional
+1 Card
+1 Action
If it is Warm, discard a card. If it is an Action card, gain a Swallow. Otherwise +1 Card.
If it is Cool, discard 2 cards. If at least one is a Treasure, +$2. Otherwise +$1.
Heirloom: Coconut

Quote
Coconut - $2
Treasure - Heirloom
$1
You may flip Warm/Cool to return a Swallow you have in play to the supply for +2VP. If you do, trash a Duchy or Estate from the supply.
Xen3k's Swallow and its Heirloom, Coconut using Warm/Cool

Xen3k, your design has a ton of great ideas that I really like. Unfortunately, they seem to have gotten in each other's way a bit and I don't think the result ultimately works. I do appreciate the Monty Python reference that is still very much in line with the game's theme.

For example, I love the idea of using an Heirloom to flip a Condition. It separates flipping the Condition from playing the Conditional that uses, but still gives all of the players the capacity to make the flip without them to buy two different cards. However, I don't think it works here. Swallow is clearly a Conditional with a stronger and weaker condition. While I think that is another design element, with a lot of potential, when you combine it with the use of the Heirloom, it makes it too easy for a player who decides not to buy Swallow to "turn off" stronger Warm effect, and there's no incentive not to do so. This is compounded by the fact that the player using Swallow (generally) won't be able to "turn on" until her Buy phase, after the time to play Swallow will tend to have passed.

(Note: I don't know if you intended players to be able to use Coconut to flip the Condition without having a Swallow to return, but it's clear to me that's how it works as currently worded.)

This would not be such an issue, except I think you may have nerfed this too hard. At it's strongest (in terms of handsize/control), it is still weaker than Fugitive, and each other incarnation is weaker still. Magpie's gainer has basically no disadvantage, while this requires both losing an Action card you could have played and reducing your handsize. When it's Cool, your handsisze drops by 2, which is basically the equivalent of the strongest handsize attacks. Playing 2 (or playing 1 after being hit with Militia) will leave you with a single card in hand (barring any other drawing). That basically leaves the VP gain as the strongest aspect of the card. 

Adding the trashing element to mitigate the VP gaining is a good call. My only concern is that the return-for-VP-tokens effect is not contingent on the trashing (compare with Triumph, which gains instead of trashes). As I understand it, the reason for tying VP tokens to gaining or trashing is to prevent a state of play where players just keep playing cards to gain VP, which never pushes the game towards the end. Here, once all of the Estates and Duchies are gone the players might have incentive to continuously buy and return Swallows to run up their VP without ever ending the game. This is unlikely, but I could potentially imagine this happening in conjunction with a Penultimate_Province_Rule dilemma. (This is made slightly more likely by the fact that players could not buy Duchies to to go up in VP before buying the second-to-last Provence). I am guessing you might have taken the language from Salt the Earth. While that is not Conditional, the important difference there is that a player will eventually have to start trashing Provinces/Colonies, which does push the game towards a conclusion. 

I know I have written a lot, and I have pointed out a multiple issues I have with these, but I actually think all of those issues are connected, and these are really close to being a very good pair of cards.





Quote
Garrison - $4
+2 Villagers

You can remove a token from your Villagers to flip Peacetime / Wartime.

If it's Peacetime, +1 Card.

If it's Wartime, remove any number of tokens from your Villagers and each other player discards a card per token removed, then draws a card per each 2 cards discarded (round down).
scolapasta's Garrison using Peacetime/Wartime

Yet another variation on how Conditions turn over--pay to flip. It's a concept I like a lot. In posting the card, spineful suggested someone make a Rabbit Season / Duck Season condition, this feels the most like that; you could imagine players aggressively flipping the Condition back and forth to the one they prefer.

In Peacetime, this is the village-iest village; if the purpose of a village is that you get to play extra Action cards, this guarantees that you will get to do so (at least if it stays Peacetime). While you can play Fishing Village the turn before you take an extra action, you can play Garrison on turn 3 and take an extra action on turn 23. This is potentially extremely valuable to certain strategies. In Wartime, it's another outlier, a strong, non-terminal attack.

Both versions are substantially weaker if you have to flip the Condition first. If you want to use the Attack and you do not have other terminal Actions to play, the answer is often going to be yes. If you are generally trying to run an engine, it may often make sense to just leave it as Wartime and take the two Villagers over one Villager and a card, or even (depending on what is in your hand) to play the attack and settle for a single villager.

I think this presents a lot of interesting and fun choices.





Quote
Fletcher - Action Attack, $3 cost.
+1 Card
+1 Action

If it's Peaceful, +1 Card.
Each other player discards an Estate (or reveals they can't).
Flip Peaceful/Troubling over.


Quote
Bowyer - Action Attack, $5 cost.
+1 Buy
+ $2

If it's Troubling, choose one: gain a Silver to your hand; or trash a Silver from your hand for + $4.
Each other player discards a Silver (or reveals they can't).
You may flip Peaceful/Troubling over.
Aquila's split pile of Fletcher and Bowyer, using Peaceful/Troubling

A split pile is another interesting approach to Conditions. You can use the first card to flip the Condition, then the second card can be effected by the Condition without flipping it. Making the second optional is another interesting approach. Fletcher is either a cantrip or Lab (a good idea for the top card of a split, as it allows players to take all of them with clogging their decks), while Bowyer is terminal silver, with the possibility to net double money while either gaining or trashing a Silver. Both have card-specific discard attacks.

It seems like it was your intention for the two cards to chain-->playing Fletcher while Peaceful for the lab variant followed by Bowyer while Troubling for net $4 gain. That seems a little strong, especially as it may not be hard to play a cantrip Fletcher to flip then a Lab Fletcher to fire (and until you get Bowyer, the order you do that in doesn't matter). That said, Sauna/Avanto can yield quite a bit more (depending on what you buy).

I generally like the idea of the discard attacks as scouting to help decide whether to flip the Condition back to Peaceful. However, if Bowyer gets combined with something like Militia, you could end up with only two cards left (or fewer). Just the threat of it might force players to hold on to Copper instead of Silver, which might end up being too punishing and/or slowing the game down too much.





Quote
Rainmaker
Action -- $5
+1 Action
If it's Rainy: Gain a card costing less than this onto your deck.

If it's Dry: Discard the top card of your deck.  If it's an Action card, you may play it twice.  Otherwise +$2.

Flip Rainy/Dry.
Timinou's Rainmaker, using Rainy/Dry

This is a fairly straightforward card, having one of two reasonably good benefits, then flipping the Condition. Both abilities are fairly playable at any time, so there is not too much worry about what the Condition is. At first glance, these two effects seem to be very different, but they are actually somewhat connected, as both gives you some degree of control over what is on top of your deck. For example, I could see pairing this with terminal drawing; when Rainy, you can put a card that you know won't be drawn dead into the mix, and when Dry, you can play an Action card that would have drawn while otherwise ensuring you get at least some value for the card. (there might be an Action card below that you get anyway, so it's far from perfect). And as Timinou pointed out, the effects can double up to gain then play a card.

One concern I have is that I am a little unclear on how Dry works, based on the use of "If...may" and "Otherwise..." in consecutive sentences. After you discard, there are three possibilities:
(a) it is an Action card you choose to play twice;
(b) it is an Action card you choose not to play twice;
(c) it is not an Action card.
I'm not sure if "Otherwise" applies and gives you +$2 in situation (b), (c), or both. I presume from the context it is not just (b), but I'm not sure that is totally clear grammatically. My inclination is to give it in both situations, as it makes the choice of whether to play certain Actions more interesting, and strengthens a card I suspect might be a bit weak at $5.

One thing you might consider to add an additional strategic element is rearranging the text so the Condition flips before the rest of the card resolves. That way, if you use the Dry ability and discarded another copy of Rainmaker, it would allow you to gain a card and play it. Now, it would re-play Dry, discarding the second card on the pile (and potentially playing it twice), then play Rainy, gaining a different card, then flip back to Dry when the original card finished resolving. While the altered version is strong, it's not too strong, and more than a fair reward for colliding two $5 Actions (one on top of your deck). Plus, you couldn't make it recursive and pile the Rainmakers, as it can never cost less than itself. (Although you could pile Estates this way if you managed to discount Rainmaker and use Inheritance, then play a Rainmaker or Estate when you knew the top cards was a second copy, using each incarnation to gain an Estate and play it twice; still not an unreasonable reward accomplishing such a tricky alignment).





Quote
Autumn Harvest
Type: Action-Conditional
Cost: $4
+1 Action
If it is Barren: +2 Cards, discard 2 cards.
If it is Plentiful: +4 Cards, discard 2 cards; each other player draws a card.
-
When you discard this from play, if you haven't already this turn, flip Barren/Plentiful.

mathdude's Autumn Harvest, using Barren/Plentiful

One last card, and one last variation on how Conditions are flipped (albeit a relatively minor one). Two versions of a sifter, one which doubles as a Lab-variant and gives your opponents cards as well, and the other of which work as a weaker version of Warehouse, costing you a card.

At first blush, I shared LibraryAdventurer's concern that the flipping mechanism would result in one player locking up the Plentiful and gaining a huge advantage. But on further consideration, I don't think that's a concern. While Plentiful is a powerful card, it does have some balance, as each time it is played in increases the handsize of the player playing it by one and the handsize of each other player by one. Of course, having six cards out of 8 is significantly better than just taking the top 6 on your deck, but that is to be expected for the person playing the card. The extra cards help the other player, and potentially give them the wherewithal to forego playing their Autumn Harvests. There is another symmetry about the card which I like: each time it is played on Plentiful a player's hand size increases by 1, while each time it is played on Barren the hand decreases by 1. Each opponent's play of a Plentiful Autumn Harvest facilitates a Barren play, while still landing at a 5 card hand.

This can be complicated a number of ways. A handsize attack after multiple plays on plentiful could be especially devastating. However, a player could choose to chuck their Autumn Harvests and send the Barren state back to their opponent. Another complication could involve a multi-player game; if three players in a row play Autumn Harvest, the third may have drawn from a prior player's Plentiful and still get to use Plentiful themselves. But even that position would rotate, and with multiple players there is a decent chance one might forego buying Autumn Harvest and be content to glean the Plentiful draws while letting the other players fight over that status and saving her buys for something else. (Conversely, it would also be harder for all the players to play it every turn when there are fewer copies per player). To me, this card looks really strong, but balanced.

I also appreciate the seasonal theme's connection to Summertime, even if you've moved on in the year.



And now, the judging:

Honorary Mention for my favorite original Condition: spineflu's High Tide/Low Tide
In Third Place: Timinou's Rainmaker
In Second Place: scolapasta's Garrison



AND THE WINNER IS...





mathdude's Autumn Harvest

This is definitely the card I would be most excited to see in the Kingdom. It's my first time judging, but that seems as good a criteria as I can come up with.




Thanks again everyone for your cards. This was a lot of fun, and definitely gave me a lot of new ideas for using Conditions.

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics Week 2: Conditions
« Reply #117 on: February 25, 2021, 01:29:00 am »
+1

AND THE WINNER IS...

mathdude's Autumn Harvest

This is definitely the card I would be most excited to see in the Kingdom. It's my first time judging, but that seems as good a criteria as I can come up with.

Thanks again everyone for your cards. This was a lot of fun, and definitely gave me a lot of new ideas for using Conditions.

Thanks!  I didn't expect that, as I wasn't really sure what you (or anyone) would look for in the Conditions mechanic - though I guess we were all in the same boat.  I'm glad you appreciated the symmetry in the design.

Also, I guess now we move from one first-time judge to another.  I'll allow a bit of discussion about your judging, if people want.  Then I'll post a new contest probably in the afternoon or evening.  I know what I'm going to use already (something I'm working on, as I develop my own fan-made expansion - and like you, I'll also say at the end "thanks... gave me a lot of new ideas for [my mechanic]" as I'll probably steal some for my expansion!)

... Side note - are we just running all Fan Mechanics contests in this single thread, or should we be making a new thread for each contest?
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics Week 2: Conditions
« Reply #118 on: February 25, 2021, 02:03:33 am »
+1

... Side note - are we just running all Fan Mechanics contests in this single thread, or should we be making a new thread for each contest?

We're just doing a single thread, at least for now.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics Week 2: Conditions
« Reply #119 on: February 25, 2021, 10:40:35 am »
0





Quote
Swallow - $4
Action - Conditional
+1 Card
+1 Action
If it is Warm, discard a card. If it is an Action card, gain a Swallow. Otherwise +1 Card.
If it is Cool, discard 2 cards. If at least one is a Treasure, +$2. Otherwise +$1.
Heirloom: Coconut

Quote
Coconut - $2
Treasure - Heirloom
$1
You may flip Warm/Cool to return a Swallow you have in play to the supply for +2VP. If you do, trash a Duchy or Estate from the supply.

Xen3k's Swallow and its Heirloom, Coconut using Warm/Cool

Xen3k, your design has a ton of great ideas that I really like. Unfortunately, they seem to have gotten in each other's way a bit and I don't think the result ultimately works. I do appreciate the Monty Python reference that is still very much in line with the game's theme.

For example, I love the idea of using an Heirloom to flip a Condition. It separates flipping the Condition from playing the Conditional that uses, but still gives all of the players the capacity to make the flip without them to buy two different cards. However, I don't think it works here. Swallow is clearly a Conditional with a stronger and weaker condition. While I think that is another design element, with a lot of potential, when you combine it with the use of the Heirloom, it makes it too easy for a player who decides not to buy Swallow to "turn off" stronger Warm effect, and there's no incentive not to do so. This is compounded by the fact that the player using Swallow (generally) won't be able to "turn on" until her Buy phase, after the time to play Swallow will tend to have passed.

(Note: I don't know if you intended players to be able to use Coconut to flip the Condition without having a Swallow to return, but it's clear to me that's how it works as currently worded.)

This would not be such an issue, except I think you may have nerfed this too hard. At it's strongest (in terms of handsize/control), it is still weaker than Fugitive, and each other incarnation is weaker still. Magpie's gainer has basically no disadvantage, while this requires both losing an Action card you could have played and reducing your handsize. When it's Cool, your handsisze drops by 2, which is basically the equivalent of the strongest handsize attacks. Playing 2 (or playing 1 after being hit with Militia) will leave you with a single card in hand (barring any other drawing). That basically leaves the VP gain as the strongest aspect of the card. 

Adding the trashing element to mitigate the VP gaining is a good call. My only concern is that the return-for-VP-tokens effect is not contingent on the trashing (compare with Triumph, which gains instead of trashes). As I understand it, the reason for tying VP tokens to gaining or trashing is to prevent a state of play where players just keep playing cards to gain VP, which never pushes the game towards the end. Here, once all of the Estates and Duchies are gone the players might have incentive to continuously buy and return Swallows to run up their VP without ever ending the game. This is unlikely, but I could potentially imagine this happening in conjunction with a Penultimate_Province_Rule dilemma. (This is made slightly more likely by the fact that players could not buy Duchies to to go up in VP before buying the second-to-last Provence). I am guessing you might have taken the language from Salt the Earth. While that is not Conditional, the important difference there is that a player will eventually have to start trashing Provinces/Colonies, which does push the game towards a conclusion. 

I know I have written a lot, and I have pointed out a multiple issues I have with these, but I actually think all of those issues are connected, and these are really close to being a very good pair of cards.



Thanks for the feedback. I realize now that I may not fully grasp the correct wording to make things necessary for a pay-off. On Coconut, the intention was to make it necessary to return a Swallow in order to flip the Conditional. I was hesitant to allow the trashing of Provinces in general, I probably could have allowed it. The power level for the Cool side is intended to be similar to Mill, as Swallow basically acts as a non-Victory Victory card. I likely did nerf it too much. Well that turned into a mess.

Thanks again for the feedback!
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mathdude

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics Week 3: Dawn Cards
« Reply #120 on: February 25, 2021, 09:50:53 pm »
+4

Design a Card (split pile, travelers line, non-supply, and similar also permitted) that uses the "Dawn" Type.  (Landscape card-shaped objects will not be valid submissions).

I'm working on a new fan-made expansion, and I'm adding "Dawn" cards (a new card type, as far as I know - maybe somewhere hidden in this forum, someone has used it before, but I haven't seen it as I'm rather new).  It is meant to partly mirror the "Night" card mechanic.  Night cards are great, in that they are never drawn dead - night happens at the end of turn, and you can play as many as you want (they don't require +Actions).  Many night cards interact to what happened during your turn (see Monastery, Devil's Workshop, Crypt, Raider).  A number of others set up your next hand(s), as durations (see Guardian, Ghost Town, Cobbler, Den of Sin).  Their drawback is that they take up space in your hand, affecting what you are able to buy "this" turn (in that they could have been a silver or an Action card to be used this turn before your Buy Phase), usually at the cost of another minor benefit (gain cheaper card, sift, etc.) or by setting up your next hand.

Dawn cards introduce a new phase.  First, any "start of turn" effects happen, then you enter your Dawn Phase, where you play Dawn cards**, then you move to your Action Phase and continue as usual.  But Dawn cards are usually only useful if you have them in your initial (usually 5-card) hand - unless they are a multi-Type card (e.g. Dawn-Action, Dawn-Treasure, Dawn-Night - see Werewolf), or unless something allows you to return to your Dawn Phase.  Because they aren't usually useful if drawn during your turn, they can offer slightly more powerful effects at a cheaper cost, since there is a risk that they will be a dead card.  Rather than reacting to what happened during your turn like Night cards, Dawn cards could possibly set up or affect your current turn in some way.  They can affect how cards are played, give extra power to some things, increase your ability to buy things, or a number of other possible effects, probably for the current turn - I recognize many action cards do these types of things already, but limiting the play of them to the beginning of turn can allow more powerful effects.  You could also consider something like the Ways mechanic in general, or specifically the Way of the Chameleon, likely as a below-the-line effect.

** I have not yet decided which way I want to mirror the Night cards' ability to play all Night cards - I'm still deciding between mirroring exactly, and allowing unlimited Dawn cards to be played during the Dawn Phase, or mirroring the opposite, and allowing only 1 single Dawn card to be played per turn.  Obviously the choice between these two could affect the cost of the card, and whether people want to buy many copies of it or just one.  For this contest, with your submission, please state whether it is intended to be played with a rule of 1 Dawn card per turn, or unlimited Dawn cards per turn allowed.

Dawn cards inherently have the equivalent of +1 Action on them, since they let you play the card, then still let you start your Action Phase with 1 Action.  So any +1 Action on a Dawn card is effectively a village variant.

Here are a couple very simple ideas, though these have not been tested yet for balance and cost (your submissions do not need to be this simple):

(to be used with only 1 Dawn card per turn)

Quote
Testing Ground
Type: Dawn
Cost: $3
+2 Cards
+1 Action
It is a very cheap lab (in reality, a lost city, since it's effectively +2 Actions).  But you can't spam-buy them.  They work well with deck-inspector cards that can check the top cards in your deck and leave some there.  They don't work well with discard-sifters, or any type of draw cards, as you could draw this card dead.  But playing with 1-per-turn, you likely wouldn't open with 2 of these on a 4/3 split, since the chances of them colliding is much greater than usual (if you drawn neither on turn 3, you're guaranteed to get both on turn 4, since they will either draw together or one will draw the other... if you draw only 1 on turn 3, you have 2/7 chance of drawing the other dead).
Note that this card could probably be played with unlimited Dawn cards per turn if it cost $4 (a cheap lab - great if you start your hand with it, or draw another with itself, dead card if drawn otherwise).

(to be used with unlimited Dawn cards per turn)

Quote
Byway
Type: Dawn
Cost: $3
+1 Card
-
While this is in play, non-Victory cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0
It is a cantrip Bridge variant - it replaces itself and reduces the cost of cards (so it's really more like a cheap Highway), so you could possibly string a number together.  But like other Dawn cards, if drawn dead in the rest of your turn, it's wasted.  I also nerfed it by not letting it reduce the cost of Victory cards - not sure if that was needed or not, but at least that made it a little more different from Highway.

Judging Criteria
In no particular order, here are some things I will consider:
- how effectively they use the Dawn mechanic (rather than simply taking an existing card and calling it a Dawn card and reducing the cost) - on this point, the 2 I've shown are rather poor choices.
- how easy they are to understand and use (they don't have to be "simple", but card text should be clear enough and not require much additional information).
- how much fun they look like they would be to play with (especially if they could be helpful with, or help enable/enhance 2 completely different play styles - such as big money, draw-full-deck engines, trash for small deck, etc.).
- cost is in the right ballpark (exact is not needed, as knowing the value when using a new mechanic would be quite difficult... but if they cost $3-5, consideration should be given to how they may affect opening purchases on turns 1 and 2).
- if using a multi-Type card (Night example of Werewolf), there is balance and/or synergy between the choices of which Phase to play it.
- bonus points may be given if you help sway my decision to either have Dawn cards be 1-per-turn, or unlimited-per-turn (if I really like your card, but it would only work 1 of these ways).
- lesser bonus points may also be given if the card could potentially be used, regardless of whether I end up making Dawn cards 1-per-turn or unlimited-per-turn (e.g. my Testing Ground above, with a different cost depending on which way the Dawn card rule goes).

Contest closes Thursday, March 4th at 10pm forum time, which is around 7 full days from the original time of this post.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2021, 11:09:25 pm by mathdude »
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BBobb

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #121 on: February 25, 2021, 10:24:18 pm »
0

Just wondering if you have seen Tejayes Morning cards. They are very similar to these.
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Hand - King's Court, Ruined Village, Estate, Copper, Possession
Turn -
BBobb plays King's Court
… and plays a Ruined Village.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined Village again.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined village a third time.
… … getting +1 Action.
BBobb plays a Copper.
BBobb buys a Poor House.
(BBobb draws: 2 King's Courts and 3 Possessions)
BBobb=GOD

scolapasta

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #122 on: February 25, 2021, 10:44:08 pm »
+1

Just wondering if you have seen Tejayes Morning cards. They are very similar to these.

I had the same thought as you, so just spent the last I don't know how many minutes trying to find them.

But eventually, SUCCESS!

One idea I liked of there's was this rule:

Quote
In order to make them less swingy and less dead-when-drawn-during-turn, Morning cards now have a universal effect in which when you discard a Morning card from your hand during your Cleanup phase, you may reveal it and put it on top of your deck. I won't add this to the card text because then the cards would be too wordy. As long as it's a Morning card, you can do this.


And then spineflu also had Morning cards in a different contest.

Here

And they also had a similar rule:

Quote
At the start of a player's cleanup phase, they may reveal a Morning card from their hand, set it aside, and add it to their hand before drawing new cards (so if one is drawn during the Action phase, its playable on the next turn); that player will still have 5 cards in hand after drawing (or more, if they have other bonuses like The River's Gift). This can only be done with one Morning card, so if you draw two or more, you'll have to choose which you do this with.

P.S. How amazing would it be to have sort of index for that WDC 1-100 thread??
« Last Edit: February 25, 2021, 10:46:33 pm by scolapasta »
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X-tra

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #123 on: February 25, 2021, 10:47:04 pm »
+3

I feel inspired, so here's an attempt, using the unlimited Dawn cards per turn:



Lots of cool stuff you can do, here.
  • Start with a hand of multiple Cottages? Say, 3 Cottages? Topdeck two of them for 2 extra Actions, then draw them again with the 3rd one... then topdeck one of the remaining 2, again! And then draw it again! Start your turn with 6 cards and 4 Actions, weee!
  • Alternatively, just draw with all of your Cottages. They all increase your starting handsize by 1, which is cool.
  • In your Action phase, you can play this as a simple Moat, meh. Or! You can set it up so you start with it in your next hand by topdecking it.
Unsure about the cost. This is a new mechanic, after all.
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mathdude

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #124 on: February 25, 2021, 11:17:25 pm »
0

Just wondering if you have seen Tejayes Morning cards. They are very similar to these.

I had the same thought as you, so just spent the last I don't know how many minutes trying to find them.

But eventually, SUCCESS!

One idea I liked of there's was this rule:

Quote
In order to make them less swingy and less dead-when-drawn-during-turn, Morning cards now have a universal effect in which when you discard a Morning card from your hand during your Cleanup phase, you may reveal it and put it on top of your deck. I won't add this to the card text because then the cards would be too wordy. As long as it's a Morning card, you can do this.


And then spineflu also had Morning cards in a different contest.

Here

And they also had a similar rule:

Quote
At the start of a player's cleanup phase, they may reveal a Morning card from their hand, set it aside, and add it to their hand before drawing new cards (so if one is drawn during the Action phase, its playable on the next turn); that player will still have 5 cards in hand after drawing (or more, if they have other bonuses like The River's Gift). This can only be done with one Morning card, so if you draw two or more, you'll have to choose which you do this with.

P.S. How amazing would it be to have sort of index for that WDC 1-100 thread??

I was sure someone had toyed with the anti-night card idea, I just hadn't seen it.  I'm pretty sure I looked through all the winners of the WDC 1-100, but I don't recall seeing these so they must not have won.

Any of Tejayes's cards would probably do fairly well in this contest.  They are great examples to look at for a little more complex options (as opposed to the 2 simple ones I just created as I was posting this).

For spineflu's cards, they use a slightly different mechanic (combination of artifact and kingdom card... fighting over who gets to keep theirs in play).  So they are less relevant here.  However, they do share some similarities to another semi-new-mechanic I'm using in my new expansion - sorry, no more details until the reveal, possibly in a couple weeks.

As for the idea of top-decking if discarded from hand... I'm going to say no, for the purposes of this contest (unless you want that to be a below-the-line effect on the card).  I know it makes it a bit swingy, especially if the card can be fairly powerful.  But that would influence play strategy with the card in the kingdom (possibly only wanting to buy one, or having to choose between using the Dawn card or building a big engine since they may not be compatible together).  If I did end up allowing this as I create my expansion, I would definitely stick with spineflu's approach, of only allowing 1 to be topdecked per turn.

Also, I just added the deadline to my intro post.
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Gubump

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #125 on: February 26, 2021, 12:19:33 am »
+2

Using the one Dawn per turn:
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BBobb

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #127 on: February 26, 2021, 02:26:16 am »
0

Just wondering if you have seen Tejayes Morning cards. They are very similar to these.

I had the same thought as you, so just spent the last I don't know how many minutes trying to find them.
I had spent like 15 minutes trying to find them, so you're not the only one who struggled finding it.
Logged
Hand - King's Court, Ruined Village, Estate, Copper, Possession
Turn -
BBobb plays King's Court
… and plays a Ruined Village.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined Village again.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined village a third time.
… … getting +1 Action.
BBobb plays a Copper.
BBobb buys a Poor House.
(BBobb draws: 2 King's Courts and 3 Possessions)
BBobb=GOD

Aquila

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #128 on: February 26, 2021, 04:40:52 am »
+2

I strongly favour the multiple Dawns format, it opens the mechanic up a bit more whilst makes them a bit less swingy; you really want your 1 Dawn to be in the starting hand, and if it isn't that's a huge setback.

I guess as a whole, Dawns discourage drawing cards with Actions unless something else is added to make them still useful (like X-tra's Cottage). So I'm thinking they really need that something else, otherwise they're not too fun.

So here's my multiple Dawns idea:
Quote
Teapot - Dawn Treasure, $5 cost.
+1 Buy
If it's your Dawn phase, then for the rest of the turn, when you play a Treasure,  + $1.Otherwise, + $2.
Wanting a Treasure in the starting hand isn't usually ideal.

Edit: changed it to Bank or + $2 at $5 cost. A little less heavy towards the Dawn phase.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 02:07:35 am by Aquila »
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silverspawn

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #129 on: February 26, 2021, 05:14:52 am »
0

but why are they pink :'(
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emtzalex

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #130 on: February 26, 2021, 11:35:40 am »
+3

Using one Dawn card per Dawn phase
(but allowing Dawn cards that are multiple types to be played as their other types according to the existing rules):


Quote
Ocelot -- $4
Dawn - Night
If it's your Night phase, trash a card you have in play. Otherwise, trash a card from your hand, then
+2 Cards.

It's crepuscular!

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Xen3k

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #131 on: February 26, 2021, 11:51:06 am »
+3

Designed with unlimited Dawn plays in mind.



Quote
Rooster - $3
Dawn
Trash up to 2 cards from your hand. If any cost more than $0, +1 Villager.
If you didn't trash any Estates or Coppers, at the end of your Dawn phase draw until you have 5 cards in hand.

Tried to make a flexible trasher that is more effective at getting rid of Curses and Ruins than the starting junk. It also allows you to defend against hand-size attacks as playing it and not trashing anything fulfills the "none were Estates or Coppers" clause allowing you to draw up to a 5 card hand at the end of your Dawn phase. I had it cost $2, but it is so flexible and basically cycles itself at the very least, so bumped it up to $3. Still, it may be too good, but I am not sure. Feedback is appreciated.

Edit: Updated wording to make the "no Estates or Coppers were trashed" clause clearer. Thanks to emtzalex for the suggestion.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 12:53:45 pm by Xen3k »
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emtzalex

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #132 on: February 26, 2021, 12:07:32 pm »
+1

It also allows you to defend against hand-size attacks as playing it and not trashing anything fulfills the "none were Estates or Coppers" clause allowing you to draw up to a 5 card hand at the end of your Dawn phase.

If that's your intention, I think a better wording would be "If you didn't trash any Estates or Coppers..."

(My first idea was Rooster, but it was just going to give +1 Action, which is why I didn't go with it. This is much better than that.)
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 12:15:43 pm by emtzalex »
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BBobb

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #133 on: February 26, 2021, 12:59:36 pm »
+2

Using one Dawn card per Dawn phase
(but allowing Dawn cards that are multiple types to be played as their other types according to the existing rules):


Quote
Ocelot -- $4
Dawn - Night
If it's your Night phase, trash a card you have in play. Otherwise, trash a card from your hand, then
+2 Cards.

It's crepuscular!

Couldn't this just be worded like this:
Trash a card from your hand. If it's your Dawn Phase, +2 Cards.

The location of the card you trash is different.
Thanks. I didn't notice that. I'll delete my post.
Logged
Hand - King's Court, Ruined Village, Estate, Copper, Possession
Turn -
BBobb plays King's Court
… and plays a Ruined Village.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined Village again.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined village a third time.
… … getting +1 Action.
BBobb plays a Copper.
BBobb buys a Poor House.
(BBobb draws: 2 King's Courts and 3 Possessions)
BBobb=GOD

spineflu

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #134 on: February 26, 2021, 02:54:16 pm »
+2

Designed with unlimited Dawn cards per Dawn phase


Quote
Provincial House of Pancakes • $3 • Dawn - Reaction
If you played this from your hand, +1 Card and +1 Buy

When you play an Action card that gives +$, +$1
-
When you discard this other than from play, you may set it aside; at the start of your next turn, play it.
aka PHOP
Fuel up your Woodcutters before a long day lumberjacking.
Has the "played from hand" condition to make it less painful for opening with a hand full of these
Has the reaction to make it less terrible to draw into - simply discard it during clean up and you'll get it next turn.

Some miscellaneous notes from re-reading the current contest:
1:
P.S. How amazing would it be to have sort of index for that WDC 1-100 thread??
Definitely exists - it's the link to "List of WDC contests" in my signature - each post where a contest starts is linked. EDIT: I moved it over to the forum itself, from the trello.

2:
- bonus points may be given if you help sway my decision to either have Dawn cards be 1-per-turn, or unlimited-per-turn (if I really like your card, but it would only work 1 of these ways).
Let me make the argument in favor of unlimited, like Night cards; this is also the argument behind my card in general.
You've got a pile of Dawn cards, 10 deep, and they're good. You want the entire pile in your hand. Hands are only 5 cards; if that Dawn card doesn't at the very least replace itself, you're in trouble.
If you can only play one of them AND they don't replace themselves (+1 Card when played from the hand), collision of 3+ Dawn cards is the equivalent of getting hit with a Militia (you're down two cards for that turn).
It needs to replace itself when played from the hand, and to justify them being a pile, they need to be non-terminal.

On top of this, if there's no "set aside-to-play-next-turn" mechanism, running into them midway through your Action phase means you've junked yourself, which either means the effect of them needs to be minimal (to not give lucky draws the game), or Big (to risk junking yourself). The former, why would you buy it? The latter, I don't know that that amount of variance is conducive to Dominion as a game - if you want a random winner, play the coin flip game. 

The only way this card type justifies its existence is as minigames - if it just gives vanilla bonuses unconditionally, why isn't it an action card? or treasure? or whatever. It should give a small task you need to complete to get a reward.



Outtakes from last contest:
« Last Edit: February 27, 2021, 12:07:41 pm by spineflu »
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Nobody

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #135 on: February 28, 2021, 05:40:14 pm »
+2

My new entry with unlimited Dawn cards per turn:

clarification: you always start your Action phase with one action, so when you return to your Dawn phase no action can be preserved(except villagers)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Damn, this is nearly the same card as "Eager Dog"(not sure if I remembered the name right), seemingly I covered it without knowing. Obviously this isnt an entry anymore, since its not really my card. I hope I can come up with something new(Its pretty hard, I could make a miniset out of cards, that started as Dawn and became an Action card).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only one Dawn card per turn.

[Edit: changed it from "play it" to "put it into your hand", so when you gain more of them their not stackable]

« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 04:35:08 pm by Nobody »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #136 on: February 28, 2021, 09:21:57 pm »
+2

Meditation
Dawn - $5
You may an Action from your hand three times

(Once per turn)
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #137 on: February 28, 2021, 09:48:57 pm »
+3

Quote
Moths
$2 - Dawn - Action
Trash a card from your hand. If it was a Treasure, +1 Card per $ it would've given if you played it.
Otherwise, gain a Silver.
If you play it in the Dawn phase, it doesn't cost an Action, but it's still playable in your Action phase too.
Do you think it's too strong for $2?

EDIT: Created with unlimited morning cards/per turn in mind, though this might be more balanced with one per turn... I don't think it makes all that much difference with this card anyway.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2021, 01:47:33 am by LibraryAdventurer »
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Gubump

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #138 on: March 01, 2021, 12:03:22 am »
+1

Meditation
Dawn - $5
You may an Action from your hand three times

(Once per turn)

This is missing the word "play."
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mathdude

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #139 on: March 01, 2021, 12:10:17 am »
+1

Quote
Moths
$2 - Dawn - Action
Trash a card from your hand. If it was a Treasure, +1 Card per $ it would've given if you played it.
Otherwise, gain a Silver.
If you play it in the Dawn phase, it doesn't cost an Action, but it's still playable in your Action phase too.
Do you think it's too strong for $2?
So it's non-terminal if played in the Dawn Phase (if you start your turn with it). But it's terminal if played in your Action Phase. I've toyed with a few cards that work similar to this for my expansion.
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mathdude

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #140 on: March 01, 2021, 12:19:24 am »
+1

I believe we have 10 entries so far. A little under 4 days to go.

Quote from: silverspawn
link=topic=20616.msg863226#msg863226 date=1614334492
but why are they pink :'(

Pink sky in morning, sailors warning. (Morning can be a dangerous time)... also, the available colours that aren't too similar to existing ones isn't that great. Which colour would you use?
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alion8me

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #141 on: March 01, 2021, 10:56:38 pm »
+8

Unlimited Dawn cards per Dawn phase.

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mathdude

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #142 on: March 03, 2021, 04:25:15 pm »
+3

29 hour and 35 minute warning
(sorry, just not sure if I'll be online at the right time tonight for the 24-hour warning)

Here are the submissions so far.  Let me know if I've missed anything:

using the unlimited Dawn cards per turn:


Using the one Dawn per turn:


So here's my multiple Dawns idea:
Teapot - Dawn Treasure, $5 cost.
+1 Buy
If it's your Dawn phase, then for the rest of the turn, when you play a Treasure,  + $1.Otherwise, + $2.


Using one Dawn card per Dawn phase
(but allowing Dawn cards that are multiple types to be played as their other types according to the existing rules):


Designed with unlimited Dawn plays in mind.


Designed with unlimited Dawn cards per Dawn phase


(this one is not an entry it says?)
Only one Dawn card per turn.


Meditation
Dawn - $5
You may an Action from your hand three times
(Once per turn)

Moths
$2 - Dawn - Action
Trash a card from your hand. If it was a Treasure, +1 Card per $ it would've given if you played it.
Otherwise, gain a Silver.

Unlimited Dawn cards per Dawn phase.

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #143 on: March 03, 2021, 04:32:30 pm »
0

(this one is not an entry it says?)
Only one Dawn card per turn.

Thats right, changed my post.
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emtzalex

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #144 on: March 04, 2021, 03:02:40 pm »
+1

  • Start with a hand of multiple Cottages? Say, 3 Cottages? Topdeck two of them for 2 extra Actions, then draw them again with the 3rd one... then topdeck one of the remaining 2, again! And then draw it again! Start your turn with 6 cards and 4 Actions, weee!

I don't think that's exactly right. Each time you use the topdeck ability during Dawn, you net +1 Action and -1 Card. Each time you play other ability you net +1 Card. So if you played 3 topdecks (to end up with 4 Actions) and 3 draws, you would end up with the same number of cards you started with (although it's a neat trick to get to play 3 cards 6 times). Unless I'm mistaken it would look like this:

Hand: Cottage - Cottage - Cottage - [card] - [card] | Actions: 1
 > Play a Cottage and choose topdecking
Hand: Cottage - Cottage - [card] - [card] | Actions: 2
 > Play a Cottage and choose topdecking
Hand: Cottage - [card] - [card] | Actions: 3
 > Play a Cottage and choose draw (drawing the 2 Cottages you already topdecked)
Hand: Cottage - Cottage - [card] - [card] | Actions: 3
 > Play a Cottage and choose topdecking
Hand: Cottage - [card] - [card] | Actions: 4
 > Play a Cottage and choose draw (drawing the Cottage you topdecked a second time plus one other card)
Hand: Cottage - [card] - [card] - [card] | Actions: 4
 > Play the last Cottage and choose draw (drawing 2 more cards)
Hand: [card] - [card] - [card] - [card] - [card] | Actions: 4

Frankly, unless much of the rest of your deck is terminal drawing (or a mix of terminal drawing and other terminal actions), I don't know that you need 4 Actions and 5 cards. Probably better to just go topdeck-topdeck-draw-draw-draw, giving you 6 cards and 3 actions, or even just topdecking once, giving you 7 cards and 2 Actions (again, unless you have a fair amount of terminal actions you need played).

I do like the card a lot, and think the fact that it costs a card to gain an Action is good, as it makes the card more balanced.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #145 on: March 04, 2021, 10:46:16 pm »
+4

I hope I'm not too late with my submission. For the rule with unlimited Dawn cards per Dawn phase.



Helps set up the turn you're about to play. Also helps you avoid drawing dead Maids and set them up to be in your hand at the beginning of your next turn.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2021, 10:54:30 pm by Commodore Chuckles »
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fika monster

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #146 on: March 05, 2021, 05:37:05 am »
+2

Threw this together very quickly so i could be part of this competition

THIS CARD USES THE "you can play 1 dawn card each turn" , so you cant Ancient throne an ancient throne.


Edit:
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 05:41:21 am by fika monster »
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mathdude

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #147 on: March 05, 2021, 07:32:27 am »
+1

I hope I'm not too late with my submission. For the rule with unlimited Dawn cards per Dawn phase.



Helps set up the turn you're about to play. Also helps you avoid drawing dead Maids and set them up to be in your hand at the beginning of your next turn.

I'll allow it. I fell asleep an hour before I was going to post that contest was closed. But there aren't too many entries, so adding this and the next is fine.

Threw this together very quickly so i could be part of this competition

THIS CARD USES THE "you can play 1 dawn card each turn" , so you cant Ancient throne an ancient throne.


Edit:


I assume the intention here is a cheap Crown? By "a playable card", I assume you mean an Action or Treasure card, but not a Dawn card? (Would Night cards be allowed?)

Contest is now closed.

Judging wil be posted within a few hours.
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fika monster

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #148 on: March 05, 2021, 08:24:18 am »
+1


Oops, yeah its supposed to say "non-dawn"
This is what happens when you rush the text of a card in 5 minutes

Edit: ASDASD


I totally understand if the totally wrong written version is the one that gets judged

« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 02:20:40 pm by fika monster »
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #149 on: March 05, 2021, 11:40:44 am »
+2


Oops, yeah its supposed to say "non-dawn"
This is what happens when you rush the text of a card in 5 minutes
This should specify "from your hand".
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Hand - King's Court, Ruined Village, Estate, Copper, Possession
Turn -
BBobb plays King's Court
… and plays a Ruined Village.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined Village again.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined village a third time.
… … getting +1 Action.
BBobb plays a Copper.
BBobb buys a Poor House.
(BBobb draws: 2 King's Courts and 3 Possessions)
BBobb=GOD

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #150 on: March 05, 2021, 11:43:18 am »
+1


Oops, yeah its supposed to say "non-dawn"
This is what happens when you rush the text of a card in 5 minutes
This should specify "from your hand".
and should probably specify Night, Action, or Treasure, although being able to trash Curses + Estates via Bonfire might be interesting.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #151 on: March 05, 2021, 05:30:04 pm »
+2

There were 12 total submissions.  4 of them want to use the rule where only 1 Dawn card can be used per turn (or per Dawn phase, I guess... in case there were a card that would let you go back to your Dawn phase).  7 want to use unlimited Dawn cards per turn.  1 didn't specify.

Based on discussion in thread, I will probably end up allowing Dawn phase to play multiple Dawn cards.  I haven't decided yet whether to include an option of setting aside or top-decking Dawn cards during Clean-up phase (I will probably have to play-test my expansion once it's somewhat complete), though I'm leaning towards not allowing that.  I recognize that makes the game a bit swingy, but I think properly designed cards can account for that to some extent.  I don't believe my preference for unlimited cards per turn affected my judgement (even though only 1 one-per-turn card ended up in my top 5) - I think it just helped show how hard it would be to design balanced cards that aren't too swingy with the one-per-turn option.

So let's get this judging underway:
(I added card images for the few that didn't have an image, just for consistency)




Quote
(unlimited Dawn cards)
Cottage - $4
Dawn-Action
Choose one: +1 Action and put this onto your deck; or +2 Cards.


X-tra's Cottage

This is a village of sorts, in the Dawn phase.  But as has been highlighted since your original post, it appears isn't not as good as you originally intended, though if you can stack multiples in a hand, it still does have some benefit.  On its own, it appears very weak to me, and could definitely be worth $3.  It's only when stacked that it gets decent.

But then when we switch to the Action phase, it is almost worthless - it either replaces itself with a new card, or it's a simple +2 Cards (which could be okay if you stacked multiple Cottages in your Dawn phase, but still is rather weak).  I like that you've incorporated a way to have it not be a fully dead Dawn card (as if it were a straight Dawn, not Dawn-Action), but it doesn't seem like there's enough there.

I think with a few tweaks, this could be a fun card, but it's not quite there yet.



Quote
(one card per Dawn phase)
Gambling Hall - $4
Dawn
Reveal your hand.  Name a card you did not reveal any copies of.  The first time you play the named card this turn, trash this.  If you do, +9VP


Gubump's Gambling Hall

This just seems either extremely overpowered or very swingy to me.  It's effectively an Alt-VP card without being a Victory card.  However, the +9VP is huge - it's a Province and Dutchy combined (or just about a Colony), but once it hits, it leaves no dead card in your deck.  I'd probably just buy as many of these as I could, with a couple draw cards (like Smithy), and then Treasure cards.

So that brings me to a few issues I see with this card... as currently stated, if I drew a hand of Gambling Hall, Smithy, [coppers and estates], I just say "silver", hope to draw one, and can guarantee I'll be able to play it.  Is the intention that you can only say an Action card?  Or Action or Night?  If you can say Treasure cards, then the +9VP needs to significantly be reduced.

But if you can't say Treasure cards, then Gambling Hall could be very difficult to activate in some kingdoms.  You need either cantrips (and a lot of luck) or village/smithy-type combos.  And then it's very swingy as to when/if they will work.

I like the overall idea of the card, but it needs some details sorted out, in my opinion.  (I may use some modification of it in my expansion, though I will probably allow unlimited Dawn cards, so I will really need to sort out if/how this can work).



Quote
(unlimited Dawn cards)
Teapot - $5
Dawn-Treasure
+1 Buy
If it's your Dawn phase, then for the rest of the turn, when you play a Treasure, +$1.  Otherwise, +$2


Aquila's Teapot

I like this idea.  (I actually have a card with a concept like this already in my expansion-in-progress).  I do like the synergy between multiple Teapots - if you get them in your starting hand, you have to decide how many to play in the Dawn phase, and if one or more might be more worthwhile in the Buy phase.

It could probably work as an Action-Treasure card (instead of Dawn-Treasure), giving it +1 Action.  But then it would end up a little more powerful than what you've designed.  I like it, and will plan to play-test it in the future (checking cost and whether the +1 Buy is needed).



Quote
(one card per Dawn phase)
Ocelot - $4
Dawn-Night
If it's your Night phase, trash a card you have in play.  Otherwise, trash a card from your hand, then +2 Cards.


emtzalex's Ocelot

I think this card is well-balanced, between the Dawn and Night abilities.  I'm not sure where it sits on cost, but $4 is probably right.  Keeping it with the one-card-per-Dawn-phase is definitely important, otherwise it's too strong of a filtering card.  If I need an extra trashing card in my expansion, I may come back to this idea (though I'm probably not including Night cards, so it will need a little modification - don't worry, that doesn't affect my judging of your card though!)



Quote
(unlimited Dawn cards)
Rooster - $3
Dawn
Trash up to 2 cards from your hand.  If any cost more than $0, +1 Villager.  If you didn't trash any Estates or Coppers, at the end of your Dawn phase draw until you have 5 cards in hand.


Xen3k's Rooster

I think you've got a very well designed card here.  It allows for early-game play (even opening purchases, possibly 2 of them though that may be a bit weak), and it has benefits later in the game as well (trashing mid-range cards that are no longer useful and curses).  It seems a bit strong that you can play this card, trash a curse (or two), and then draw 2 (or 3) new cards to start your Action phase, though maybe that was your intention.  It also lets you play itself, then just draw a new card, which is sort of boring.  But overall, it's a clever use of trashing in the Dawn phase.



Quote
(unlimited Dawn cards)
Provincial House of Pancakes - $3
Dawn-Reaction
If you played this from your hand, +1 Card, +1 Buy.  When you play an Action card that gives +$, +$1.
When you discard this other than from play, you may set it aside.  At the start of your next turn, play it.


spineflu's Provincial House of Pancakes

I like the way you've accounted for drawing PHOP "dead" in your turn, and as an added benefit, it can also work well against handsize reduction attacks and even some filtering-type cards.  I feel like the card is fairly weak in many kingdoms though, as there are not always decent Action cards with +$ that you'd want to include in your deck.

On the other hand, it would be too powerful if it switched to "when you play a treasure card, +$1" or something like that.  (Obviously a cost increase would be in order, but then it's also a completely different card).  I'm not sure where I sit on this card currently.  I like parts of it, but other parts I'm not sure about.  so it's probably going to end up in the middle of the pack.



Quote
(unlimited Dawn cards)
(unknown) - $5
Dawn-Action
If this is your Dawn phase, +1 Card, +1 Villager.  Otherwise, you may remove all your Villagers for +2 Cards each.  Return to your Dawn phase.
{clarification: you always start your Action phase with one action, so when you return to your Dawn phase no action can be preserved(except villagers)}


Nobody's (unknown)

With Dawn cards inherently giving you +1 Action, they lend very easily to making Village variants.  And this is the 2nd of 3 submissions in this contest (or 3rd of 4 if you count Rooster, which becomes a village variant too if you trash the right card).  I like that this card is only a Village in the Dawn phase, and has a completely different purpose in your Action phase - it makes use of those +Villagers with setting up a potential large hand.

It looks like there could be choices given to this card (either the option to do +Card +Villager *or* remove all Villagers for +2 Cards each... regardless of whether you're in your Dawn or Action phase, where it's just weaker in the Action phase, as well as a choice of discarding only some Villagers).  However, I think it's intentional the way you have designed it, and I think it works better that way.  It might be too powerful, even at $6 cost if it had one or both of those choices.

I don't think I agree with your interpretation of starting your Action phase with exactly 1 Action (though the start of your turn and start of Action phase have pretty much been the same thing in Dominion so far... well, at least one after the other and you can only "return to your Action phase", never "return to the start of your Action phase").  Since I'm adding the Dawn phase in my expansion, I will need to clarify this, and I intend to have the "start of turn" give you 1 Action (and 1 Buy), and if you return to Dawn phase at any point (at least one or two of my cards already do that), you would not lose any Actions you still have, nor would you get a new +1 Action when you start your Action phase.  However, regardless of whether the game is played with your interpretation or mine, I think this card still works.

Overall, I like the balance, variety, and simplicity in the card.  I just wish I was including Villagers in my expansion, because this card just wouldn't work the same without them!



Quote
(one card per Dawn phase)
Meditation - $5
Dawn
You may play an Action card from your hand three times.


NoMoreFun's Meditation

This is a plain and simple King's Court variant.  It costs $2 less and can only be used in your Dawn phase, with cards that are drawn into your starting hand.  I think it ends up a bit swingy this way, but cards like King's Court always are (this is just a bit worse).  I'm not overly excited by seeing this card, but I'm also not ready to just toss the idea aside.  I think this lands middle-of-the-road as well.



Quote
(one or unlimited?  not sure)
Moths - $2
Dawn-Action
Trash a card from your hand.  If it was a Treasure, +1 Card per $ it would have given if you played it.
Otherwise, gain a silver.


LibraryAdventurer's Moths

There is definitely something missing in this card's design.  Can it be played in both the Dawn or Action phase, with exactly the same results (other than being dead in the Action phase)?  Or should it only be a Dawn card?  I think it's a very weak trasher (as a baseline, I can trash a copper for no benefit, or trash a silver for 2 cards or a gold for 3 cards... sometimes kingdom-treasures may be slightly better and other times slightly worse).  But those +Cards (for losing silver or gold) don't seem very worthwhile, except maybe in the last time through your deck in the game.

The alternative, a forced trash to gain a silver, just doesn't seem like a fun card to me, even at only $2 cost.  Maybe it doesn't match my playstyle, but I'm not thrilled by it.  There's also the issue of wording/clarity, in the "it would have given if you played it".  Maybe letting it work like Storyteller, actually playing the card, trashing it, then giving a choice of spending any number of coins for +Cards could make it a bit more exciting?



Quote
(unlimited Dawn cards)
Morning Village - $4
Dawn-Action
+1 Card.  If it is your Dawn phase, +1 Villager.  Otherwise, +2 Actions.


alion8me's Morning Village

Here is our final Village variant.  It is a very logical, very simple Village that makes appropriate use of the Dawn phase, and gives a decent benefit of playing in the Dawn phase instead of in the Action phase, justifying the extra cost (compared to Village).  But even in this simplicity, I really like it.  If I was using Villagers in my expansion, I would likely add this card to it exactly as it's currently designed.  I have no complaints.



Quote
(unlimited Dawn cards)
Maid - $3
Dawn
Look at the top 5 cards of your deck.  Put them anywhere in your deck.


Commodore Chuckles's Maid

This is like a Night Watchman, and carries the same cost.  Multiples can be played for additional benefit.  However, since this lets you put the cards anywhere in your deck (planning your next turn, and spreading out the Maids for multiple future turns), I would possibly say this is stronger, and should therefore cost more.  However, the fact that you can't discard Victory cards like Night Watchman probably justifies keeping this at only $3, and it being a dead card if drawn during your turn definitely makes this card a bit weaker.

I do like how simple it is, and that it works well to stack multiples.  It effectively uses filtering (though without discarding) using the Dawn phase.  It looks like a great card for me to add into my expansion!



Quote
(one card per Dawn phase)
Ancient Throne - $3
Dawn
You may play a Non-Dawn card from your hand twice.


fika monster's Ancient Throne

I think this card needs some clarity.  Are we allowed to play Treasure or Night cards?  If not, it's just a weak Throne Room, which is why it costs $3 instead of $4 (just like the Meditation card above, being a weak King's Court).  I think it's way too strong allowing you to play a Treasure twice (then it's like Crown, and would need to cost $4).  But if it only plays Actions, then it's a bit boring.


This took a lot longer than I thought!  And it is really hard to pick a winner.  Within the top 5 or 6, they are all so good.  But I have to pick.

So here are the runners up...



Third runner up is:  Xen3k's Rooster

Second runner up is:  Aquila's Teapot

First runner up is:  Nobody's (unknown)


(in reality, any of these three probably could have won for me on a different day!)



And the winner is:  Commodore Chuckles's Maid
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emtzalex

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #152 on: March 05, 2021, 06:15:57 pm »
+2

Thanks for the feedback. This caught my interest more than I originally expected, and I ended up thinking a lot about it and designing a number of cards. Here is the result: some of my thoughts on the mechanic, as well as the cards I have come up with. As elsewhere, I made these cards more as examples to illustrate my thoughts than as finished cards, so I have not given much thought to cost/balance/playability (except to the extent those are what I am thinking about).

By their nature, Dawn cards immediately draw comparison to Night cards. The concept is similar, adding a new phase and proving a set of cards to be played during that phase (which is also a time of day).

The biggest design issue with Night cards is that when they are played, vanilla bonuses (+Actions, +Cards, +Buys, +$; Nocturn didn't use Coffers/Villagers mats or VP tokens) are all but useless. You can't play Action cards, making +Actions useless, and you can't buy cards, so +Buys and +$ are no good. +Cards could, in theory, draw other Nights that you could play, but given the fact that (1) they would draw every other kind of card dead, and (2) when randomized with multiple sets, there's a strong likelihood of only having one Night, that doesn't work in practice.



Dawn cards are (not surprisingly), the opposite. Vanilla bonuses are always useful, as every other part of the turn is ahead of you. One thing they have in common with Night cards is that they do not spend an Action, so they are never terminal, and each Action given is a bonus:


(This was my first idea; lots of Dawn cards are going to be about waking people up, and to me that functions as an extra Action. the Rooster does nothing else, but self-Butchers when trashed. Xen3k's Rooster is a much better card.)



The big design challenge with Dawn cards is that if they are not in your opening hand. I think this is potentially a huge issue. The reason adding +1 Action to Moat while taking away its reaction increases its price by $3 (a huge jump, especially going from $2 to $5) while doing the same to Market Square only increases it by $1 (with $3 to $4 being possibly the least significant $1 increase of any price) is that the two cards you get from Moat, if Action cards, are drawn dead (without a villager/Villager), but the two cards you get from Laboratory are not. The Dawn cards from either Moat or Laboratory are drawn dead, and since you can't go back and change the price of those cards, Dawn cards (it seems to me) have the potential to be really unbalanced/hard to price/play, or possibly disruptive to the existing balances that exist in the game.



The easy answer is, price Dawn cards accordingly, and there's not nothing to that. Take, for example, this card, which does exactly what Festival does, but only if it's in the hand that you initially draw, otherwise it does nothing.



This works in theory, but what if you are able to draw cards during/before your Dawn phase? For example, what about this?



On it's own, a non-terminal +3 Cards that has to be played at the start of your turn might actually be somewhat balanced at $4, since it is hard to build an engine around a card that has to be in your starting hand. The problem, of course, is that it doesn't really have to be in your starting hand. If your PotD draws another PotD, it is still your Dawn phase, and you can chain them. Suddenly, you can fill your hand with non-terminal Actions (preferably disappearing money) and treasures, and play all of them.



This is why I initially was supportive of one Dawn card per turn. I felt it would allow them to be more powerful without the risk of chaining a bunch of them for too much power. I've become convinced that this is probably not the best solution. As Aquila pointed out, this probably ends up worsening the problem, because if you only have 1 copy of a Dawn card then your really need to get it in to your starting hand. One solution is to have little-no-drawing among Dawn cards (a solution I don't love). A solution I like better is to make it so the Dawn cards either (1) won't be drawn during the Action phase, or (2) are not useless if they are.



One way to do this is to combine an on-Buy topdecking with a one-shot effect, making something like an Event-Duration:



(This is apparently an actual job people used to have, presumably before alarm clocks.) The card continues the theme of waking people up, but frankly, I kind of hate it. That said, topdecking is a promising mechanic, as it can (if timed correctly), be used to put a Dawn into a starting hand from which it can be played.



Another option (which a lot of people in the contest figured out) is to have Dawn cards be multiple types. Again, there is a good comparison with Night cards. Of the 15 official Night cards (13 Kingdom, 2 non-Supply), 7 are Night-Durations (including Ghost), 1 is Action-Night, and only 7 (fewer than half the total) are plain Night cards (including Bat). Of the 6 Night-Duration Kingdom cards, 4 give a vanilla bonus at the start of the next turn (alleviating that design challenge). Combining Dawn with other types can open up a lot of possibilities, and there are a lot of options.



One choice (which I went for with my submission), is to create a Dawn-Night.



In terms of flavor/theme, a good fit for these are crepuscular animals--that is, animals primarily active during twilight (dawn and dusk), as opposed to those which are nocturnal (active at night) or diurnal (active during the day). There are plenty of official cards that are animals to use for guidance/inspiration, and the Wikipedia article in the link has a long list of crepuscular animals. They can do similar things that vary slightly by time of day:





Another solid option is Dawn-Reaction. There are two obvious (imo) ways to use this. The reaction can provide an alternative use for the card...



...or topdeck the Dawn card to be used the following turn.



Or, it could let the player choose between those two.



Another approach (which spineflu's card uses) is to have the reaction play the Dawn at the start of the next turn. Personally, I don't love that, because I do feel that even with helpful Reactions, Dawns are still somewhat harder to play, so their effect should be slightly overpowered for their cost, while cards that can be played when they are discarded are slightly easier to play and therefore end up being underpowered at their cost (e.g. Village Green). (I note that spineflu addresses this by giving a bonus for playing the card from hand).



One type which I think has a wider array of design possibilities when combined with Dawn cards than with Night is Action (as multiple submissions recognized). When these cards are played as an Action card it uses an Action, but if played as a Dawn or Night it doesn't. The one official card (Werewolf) takes advantage of this by being a terminal draw, with a Night card that lets copies otherwise drawn dead be used (albeit for a relatively swingy Hex giving).

The interesting thing about Dawn-Action (or Action-Dawn) cards is that they don't necessarily need language that distinguishes a Dawn phase play from an Action phase play. They could have the same text for both, but because playing it as a Dawn does not cost an Action, how it functions can be radically differently (see the above discussion comparing Moat and Laboratory) depending on when it is played. This distinction can turn terminal Actions into cantrips/disappearing money/non-terminal drawing...

         

...or turn cantrips/disappearing money into villages.

   

While I'm sure there are good designs that specify different actions during Dawn and Action phases (including Nobody and alion8me's submissions), I think the potential for elegance/simplicity with these is hard to beat.



(As an aside, while I don't especially love the regular Dawn cards in terms of appearance, these Night-split half Dawn cards--Dawn-Duration and Dawn-Night [with pink at top and bottom] and the Dawn-Action [with pink in the instruction box]--are some of my favorite cards aesthetically).



Another option (used by Aquila), is to do a Dawn - Treasure (here I like the look of the half-and-half split better):

   

The concept no doubt has potential, but I think the overlap with the Action phase is much more obvious and has a more promise.



I came up with a Dawn-Reserve:



As I've explained elsewhere, I'm interested in the idea of a daytaler and think it has potential to make a great card or mechanic. This isn't it. I think this is overpriced at $2, and maybe even at $1. I haven't thought about the implications of a Kingdom-card that costs $0. This one is probably not worth doing any more with.



I also made a Dawn-Victory:



I think it's kind of nice (although I don't like the color combo either way). I think there is potential to the combination as it seems considerably more palatable to have a Victory card (even if it's a hybrid) that is frequently drawn dead.



Ultimately, I think the mechanic has a ton of promise and many possibilities. I am now inclined to have the rule allow multiple Dawns per turn, and have a card balance like Night, with fewer than half the cards being of just that type (and maybe an even lower percentage here). Even with plain Dawn cards, there is almost always a way to find the balance you need:


(This might not be it).



And just in case anyone was wondering:

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spineflu

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #153 on: March 05, 2021, 06:28:18 pm »
+1

I gave my thoughts on the mechanic earlier in the thread:
- bonus points may be given if you help sway my decision to either have Dawn cards be 1-per-turn, or unlimited-per-turn (if I really like your card, but it would only work 1 of these ways).
Let me make the argument in favor of unlimited, like Night cards; this is also the argument behind my card in general.
You've got a pile of Dawn cards, 10 deep, and they're good. You want the entire pile in your hand. Hands are only 5 cards; if that Dawn card doesn't at the very least replace itself, you're in trouble.
If you can only play one of them AND they don't replace themselves (+1 Card when played from the hand), collision of 3+ Dawn cards is the equivalent of getting hit with a Militia (you're down two cards for that turn).
It needs to replace itself when played from the hand, and to justify them being a pile, they need to be non-terminal.

On top of this, if there's no "set aside-to-play-next-turn" mechanism, running into them midway through your Action phase means you've junked yourself, which either means the effect of them needs to be minimal (to not give lucky draws the game), or Big (to risk junking yourself). The former, why would you buy it? The latter, I don't know that that amount of variance is conducive to Dominion as a game - if you want a random winner, play the coin flip game. 

The only way this card type justifies its existence is as minigames - if it just gives vanilla bonuses unconditionally, why isn't it an action card? or treasure? or whatever. It should give a small task you need to complete to get a reward.

and these are the other ones (minigames, the lot of them) I came up with:


Statue has some wording issues, especially with cards like Border Guard or Warehouse that let you shuffle a lot in a turn. Saber-Rattle was almost my entry but with no attack cards it would've been a dead pile - not ideal (although guardian is pretty much that in no attack games). As you can see, most of them adhered pretty much to the "no drawing this dead" paradigm I used on PHOP. I think PHOP could be an absolute monster in games where you draw your deck - you only need one payload card, a Messenger or w/e, to trigger a whole bunch of them. Doesn't even have to be a good payload card - Oasis would probably enable it very well, or Vault/Storeroom.

It was also pointed out in the discord that these are basically also Night-Duration cards. Again, probably worth examining whether "pure" Dawn type cards need to exist (although emtzalex makes some interesting points with the dual type cards he posted.)
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 06:32:50 pm by spineflu »
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fika monster

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #154 on: March 05, 2021, 07:41:33 pm »
+1

well judged.
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mathdude

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #155 on: March 05, 2021, 09:37:26 pm »
0

Thanks for the feedback. This caught my interest more than I originally expected, and I ended up thinking a lot about it and designing a number of cards. Here is the result: some of my thoughts on the mechanic, as well as the cards I have come up with.

--(I snipped the rest, but there was a lot of good discussion in there!)--

Thanks for a very detailed follow-up post, emtzalex... you've given me even more to think about (and a lot more card options to consider!)  Your Ocelot just missed the runner up spots (it was in there at 3rd runner up for a while, but then got pushed down one more spot).  I do think your Barn Owl or Ferret would have gotten into the finals though, as I like them both more than the Ocelot.

For the reaction on your Communal Hearth, I think that would work better as a Dawn-Treasure card, where the reaction would be replaced with "If it's your Buy phase, +$2" (and the upper part would be "If it's your Dawn phase" or put below and just say "Otherwise").  You could even keep the +Buy universal in both phases.

I really like the Morning Muster - it's well-themed with the Dawn, and the interaction between its Dawn Play ability and its Reaction ability is a good design.  This card may have had a shot at winning the contest!  I also like the Reaction for Sunrise Village, and may end up using it for a Dawn card (though not likely a Village).

For your Dawn-Action cards, I like the Plough and Call to Prayer.  I may use those or slight variations on them (now I'm starting to think I've got too many Dawn cards ending up in my expansion!  I've already got 9 pre-established based on a secondary mechanic I'm using, which pairs well with the new Dawn phase, so I can't add too many more, unless I knock that 9 down to 6 or 7).  Muster does look like it filters too much though, compared to existing cards.  Maybe just putting the rest back on the deck?  Or look at less and choose to topdeck or discard them (all the same spot maybe, or give a choice)?

Also, I see you commented about Dawn-Action or Action-Dawn.  I thought about that a bit.  Generally, card types are listed in the order they would happen in turn, so Dawn-Action makes sense.  On the other hand, I believe Action has always come first on every multi-type card that has Action in it (partly because nothing has ever come before Actions in your turn, I suspect).  I decided based on how the split-colour looked on it, and the pink on top was definitely better, in my opinion.  Although I do like your Night-split colours too, so I'll consider that before releasing my set.

For both Dawn-Treasure cards, I think either could have made the runner-up list.  Postal Cart looks a little weak in the Buy phase for costing $4 (except where you've been able to trash all/most coppers), though that does put the priority on playing it as a Dawn, not a Treasure, so maybe it's okay.

And your Morning Glory Garden looks good too.  A secondary theme in my expansion is a lot of cards with at least two Types, and I don't think I have Dawn-Victory yet (you're right, the colours look odd together).  Since the Dawn cards tend to be less swingy with another Type, they just fit in well with this secondary theme.  I may take that card, but let you exchange it for a Duchy instead of +2VP... we'll see.

Finally, the Promise of a New Day.  I like the "End your Dawn Phase", as a way to balance an extra strong, cheaper Dawn card.  You're right, the one you posted might not be the right one.  But I like the concept.  It is swingy, and obviously you wouldn't want to buy more than 1 (or maybe 2 in a larger deck), but it's worth considering a little more.

It was also pointed out in the discord that these are basically also Night-Duration cards. Again, probably worth examining whether "pure" Dawn type cards need to exist (although emtzalex makes some interesting points with the dual type cards he posted.)

The cards you've posted, allowing you to basically set them aside from your hand during Clean-up and play at the start of next turn, are definitely as close to Night-Duration cards as you can get.  As discussed right after the contest opened, with the 2 other examples of Morning-type cards, maybe top-decking the cards (in their arguments, as a rule for Dawn cards... though I like the idea better just as a Reaction ability, in place of the one you've used) would be more appropriate - it still lets you play them next turn, but it makes them a bit weaker and less like Night-Duration, as they now take up a spot in your next starting hand.

well judged.

Thanks.  As results were coming in, I didn't think it would be too bad.  But in the end, it sure took a lot of effort to try to judge appropriately and give feedback on a card type I've never played with actual cards (though my mind has been playing these cards for a month now as I work on my expansion!)  And as I said, there were at least 5 or 6 that I found very hard to distinguish between for the top few spots.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #156 on: March 05, 2021, 11:52:21 pm »
+1

Oh wow, thank you mathdude! I was not expecting to win this. Thank you for being generous with the deadline. I'm honored that you would consider adding my card to your expansion. I'll try to post the next contest within the next 24 hours.
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emtzalex

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #157 on: March 06, 2021, 11:33:47 pm »
+3

One last thing about Dawn cards before we move on. A lot of the conversation has been about the cards themselves, and comparing them to other types. But another thing that has occurred to me is how they interact with other cards, specifically, Durations. Because while both Moat and Laboratory draw Dawn cards dead, Den of Sin and Hireling don't. Not only are there Duration cards draw useable Dawn cards at the start of your turn, but there are several that put cards into your hand at the start of your turn, often with a fair amount of control over which cards. While I was aware of all of these cards, I hadn't paid much attention to the mechanic, because with the official game it doesn't really matter if you draw a card at clean-up, at the start of your turn, or during your turn using Action cards/Projects/etc.

With Dawn it matters a lot, and changes the strength and value of those cards. For example, Gear and Dungeon are two cards that I usually pass on, but if I was also buying solid Dawn cards, they would become way more appealing. I actually looked back over all the Durations, and there are quite a few interesting cases. Haven, for example, is another card that doesn't draw Dawns dead. Two interesting cases are Haunted Woods and Enchantress. While Haunted Woods' +3 Cards is valuable in potentially getting Dawns you can use, it's Attack is potentially weakened as your opponent can topdeck any Dawns they draw dead to use next turn. With Enchantress, if you have a Dawn/Action instead of getting your card turned into a cantrip, if you play it during your Dawn phase it will be turned into a Village. Also, non-Action Dawn cards let you play effects before having to be hit by the Enchantress, which can help mitigate the effects.

I don't think this is a problem because none of these cards is so good as to be made broken good by their added utility in the presence of Dawn cards. But it is one more interesting thing to think about.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #158 on: March 07, 2021, 04:30:05 pm »
+2

I'm very sorry everyone, but a bunch of stuff has come up in my life and I'm not feeling up to running the contest this week. Perhaps the second-place winner could run it instead?
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mathdude

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #159 on: March 07, 2021, 08:12:39 pm »
+2

I'm very sorry everyone, but a bunch of stuff has come up in my life and I'm not feeling up to running the contest this week. Perhaps the second-place winner could run it instead?

Ok, now we're looking for Nobody to run the next contest!
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Gubump

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #160 on: March 07, 2021, 11:47:20 pm »
+2

Ok, now we're looking for Nobody to run the next contest!

Without context, this looks hilarious.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #161 on: March 08, 2021, 07:39:51 am »
+3

Well, ok then:
Fan Card Mechanics Week 4: Trade tokens
We´re coming to the really old stuff. This is a mechanic from LastFootnote- posted in 2012.
Since I´m bad in explaining things, here are two examples:
Alright? So Trade tokens can be used for literally everything- maybe you get Villager tokens for them, or you can trash your whole deck with it, or they give VPs. It´s really up to you. In LastFootnotes expansion, mostly you get one, when you gain a card- but obviously there are many other ways.
Since villagers as well as Coffers come with a shortcut, i think a shortcut for Trade tokens makes sense. So, when you dont want to write "take a Trade token", just use this: "+1 Trade". Ok, I admit, that does´nt sound too great- when you know something better, just go for it.

Judging criterias
The question I will ask myself is:"How interesting is the card?" This is a very general question,  so I divide it a bit:
  • creativity- how new is your concept? A perfectly balanced card, that uses the Trade tokens well and does everything else right wont rank high, if its just completely boring. You also can ask yourself "How much does my card add to the game?"
  • use of the mechanic- this is about Fan Card Mechanics, so obviously its very important to me, how well you use the Mechanic
  • balance- Well, not much to say here I think. The card should be somehow balanced. If you want, you can also make it balanced with LastFootnotes cards(http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2114.msg33093#msg33093), but thats not necessary(but please say, if your entry is meant to interact with LastFootnotes cards).
    However, i am pretty new to Dominion, so I´m very bad at this point myself, especially with mechanics from expansions. And this is, where you come into play. It would be very helpfull, when you could give each other a little feedback about the balance of the cards(and if you want, about the rest also, of course). This makes the judging for me much easier and it gets less of a coin flip   
  • simplicity- Well, objectively this won´t be a point, but since we all know, how objective humans are...

Have fun!

Submissions will be closed next Monday at 1pm forum time
« Last Edit: March 08, 2021, 05:34:32 pm by Nobody »
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Xen3k

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #162 on: March 08, 2021, 12:06:04 pm »
+5



Quote
Trade Cutter - $4
Action
+1 Buy
+$2
Choose one: +1 Trade; or pay 2 Trade for +2 Cards at the end of this turn.

A Woodcutter+ with a quasi Den of Sin attached if you have two Trade tokens to spare. I could have made it a Duration and had the card draw actually happen on your next turn, but thought it interesting to make it difficult to use when hand-size attacks are in the kingdom and having it cycle through your deck faster seemed a better design. Feedback is appreciated.
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spineflu

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #163 on: March 08, 2021, 12:20:29 pm »
+2


Quote
Depot • $4 • Action
You may spend a Trade token to gain a card costing up to $6. If you don't, gain a card costing up to $4.
-
When you gain or trash this, gain a Trade token.
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emtzalex

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics Week 4: Trade tokens
« Reply #164 on: March 08, 2021, 12:44:12 pm »
+1

Here's what I came up with:



Quote from: Speculator
Speculator -- $5
Action
+1 Buy
Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. Play any Treasures, then discard the rest (revealed) for +$1 each.
You may pay a Trade token to replay this card. Otherwise, end your Action phase.
-----
When you gain this, +1 Trade.

I decided to follow LastFootnote's model of giving a single Trade token on gain. I like the idea of a card that has both a regular, reusable version and a one-shot enhanced version. (There may be ways to get more than one shot, but that's true of official cards as well, e.g. Experiment - Inheritance).

This is a twist on Vault. When played from a hand of 5 cards, it effectively works the same (but with +1 Buy and without the opponent interaction). It can sometimes be stronger than Vault, e.g. using Disappearing Money or after a handcard attack. And, of course, it's bonus play is almost like a variant on Tactician or Mission, effectively giving you a bonus turn, albeit one on which you cannot play any Actions. (And it's even better, because while the extra Buys mean you can use the money from each hand to buy a separate card, you also have the option of combining them into one large purchase).

However, it has several weaknesses as well. It doesn't combine well with Lab variants (drawing 1 or 0 cards if you increase your handsize above 5 before playing it). Worse, it's mandatorily terminal; unlike Vault, which makes discarding optional, this empties your hand and ends your Action phase. Even if you have a village, you can't use this to keep playing Actions, making it a significantly worse choice as an engine component. It also prevents you from playing Night cards.

One interesting (possibly too strong/swingy) synergy is with the oft-overlooked March. As long as you don't hit a shuffle it is easy to do, and playing this from your discard pile is all but guaranteed to yield more than $3, even on a regular play, plus providing a Buy to make up for the one used.
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MrHiTech

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #165 on: March 10, 2021, 11:32:50 am »
+1

« Last Edit: March 22, 2021, 01:01:19 pm by MrHiTech »
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #166 on: March 10, 2021, 11:47:55 am »
+1

add "width=320" into the image tag. As in, [img width=320 ] link[/ img] (but without the whitespaces
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Nobody

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #167 on: March 10, 2021, 12:12:39 pm »
+1

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #168 on: March 10, 2021, 05:08:38 pm »
+3

So Trade tokens seem to be a very simple mechanic in essence, a way to save power up for later use at the optimal time. There is a fair bit of this in Dominion, like Coffers, Villagers, Reserves, Way of the Turtle. The advantage of Trade tokens is achieving optional (unlike most Reserves), flexible (unlike Turtle), versatile (unlike Coffers and Villagers) boosts.

LFN made them hard to get with powerful boosts on offer; to me, that adds to their definition. In theory there could be a kind of Trade token that's easy to get whilst giving modest boosts, but that would seem like an entirely different mechanic.

So my entry tries to mix well with LFN's cards:
Quote
Yeoman - Action Victory, $6 cost.
You may spend a Trade token for +3 Cards.
-
Worth 5VP if you have the most Trade tokens (or tied), or 2VP for second most (or tied).
-
When you gain this, take a Trade token per 2 different types you have in play (round up).
Gives a reason to keep them, so there's a choice to spend or not spend.
The scoring bit is awkwardly worded. The actual number of Trade tokens you have at game end doesn't matter, so long as you have the most or second most. Ties are grouped together, so if A and B have 3 tokens, C has 2 and D 1, both A's and B's Yeomen get 5VP whilst C's get 2. (If B instead had 2 tokens, A would get 5VP whilst B and C get 2.)
I did it like this rather than scale with your own number of tokens since one of LFN's cards is a Treasure that can take a Trade token on play, so there could be infinite VP potential.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #169 on: March 11, 2021, 12:19:03 am »
+5



The Goods are a deck of 10 sideways card-shaped objects, like Boons and Hexes. Each time you gain a Foreign Trader, put the next Good face-up in a pile, and its effect remains active until covered. The Goods aren't reshuffled; even if the players somehow manage to gain more than ten total Foreign Traders, the tenth Good remains face-up for the rest of the game.




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fika monster

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #170 on: March 11, 2021, 04:56:58 am »
0


Quote
Depot • $4 • Action
You may spend a Trade token to gain a card costing up to $6. If you don't, gain a card costing up to $4.
-
When you gain or trash this, gain a Trade token.

It feels a smidge too good? I think i would reduce its non-trade token gaining to "up to 3$"
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fika monster

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #171 on: March 11, 2021, 04:58:44 am »
0



The Goods are a deck of 10 sideways card-shaped objects, like Boons and Hexes. Each time you gain a Foreign Trader, put the next Good face-up in a pile, and its effect remains active until covered. The Goods aren't reshuffled; even if the players somehow manage to gain more than ten total Foreign Traders, the tenth Good remains face-up for the rest of the game.

I like this idea. If i understood correctly, the Effect is global? ie, it works for all players

If so, it would be a cool Kingdom modifier, that changes it in a landscape like way, but swtiches the way you play
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fika monster

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #172 on: March 11, 2021, 05:01:36 am »
0



Suggestions for alternate Trade token names, that work better with "+X" format

Riches, Wealth, Assets, Means

Power, influence
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 12:49:04 pm by fika monster »
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Timinou

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #173 on: March 11, 2021, 10:36:04 am »
+2



Muster could just have said "Twice per game:...", but I like the idea of using Trade tokens for tracking.  You could also theoretically make use of Muster more than twice per game if there are other card shaped things that allow you to gain additional Trade tokens.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #174 on: March 11, 2021, 11:05:58 am »
+4

I have played many games with the Enterprise fan expansion. I think the trade token mechanic is a really cool idea. I haven't ever entered one of these contests, but seeing how one of my favorite mechanics is the focus of this one, I thought I'd give it a crack.

I love the idea that trade tokens are hard to get. However, if you have only one Enterprise card in your kingdom, basically the only way to get one is to buy another one of that card, making them true one-shot cards. I wanted to try to address that problem, while still making them scarce. Enter the Heirloom.  Heirlooms are always in the kingdom with the other card, so you will always have an alternate way to get Trade tokens (aside from just buying another copy of the original card). You also can't stock up on them (you'll get one and like it, mister). I thought it needed to be slowed down in order to maintain the proper scarcity, so it has to go hide on your Tavern mat until recalled for that precious token.

« Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 11:01:10 pm by DunnoItAll »
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #175 on: March 11, 2021, 11:30:28 am »
+5

Something pretty simple:



Edit: Made it a little more usable.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 06:33:36 pm by X-tra »
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #176 on: March 11, 2021, 01:26:36 pm »
0

Something pretty simple:


I feel like this is overpriced. Obviously you can save them up, but I feel like this could definitely cost $4, or even $3.
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Hand - King's Court, Ruined Village, Estate, Copper, Possession
Turn -
BBobb plays King's Court
… and plays a Ruined Village.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined Village again.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined village a third time.
… … getting +1 Action.
BBobb plays a Copper.
BBobb buys a Poor House.
(BBobb draws: 2 King's Courts and 3 Possessions)
BBobb=GOD

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #177 on: March 11, 2021, 01:55:00 pm »
0

That card could cost 1$. It's a Necropolis variant.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #178 on: March 11, 2021, 02:03:12 pm »
+1

That card could cost 1$. It's a Necropolis variant.
It's a throne variant. It's not to play a number of cards from your hand, it is to play a card from your hand x many times. Yeah, but very weak.
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Hand - King's Court, Ruined Village, Estate, Copper, Possession
Turn -
BBobb plays King's Court
… and plays a Ruined Village.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined Village again.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined village a third time.
… … getting +1 Action.
BBobb plays a Copper.
BBobb buys a Poor House.
(BBobb draws: 2 King's Courts and 3 Possessions)
BBobb=GOD

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #179 on: March 11, 2021, 03:07:51 pm »
0

I know, but what I didn't realize is that playing it once doesn't give you +1 Action, so I should have said Ruined Village variant rather than Necropolis Variant.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #180 on: March 11, 2021, 03:20:59 pm »
+3

Neat Theme this week!

I hope im not breaking any rules, as im sort of bringing in my own mechanic here: "Ambition". Ambition are like a project that affects all players during the whole game. Combining that with the idea Of trade Tokens seemed cool to me, so i decided to do just that.

Anyway: Heres my submission this week: "governance",


Its a Royal carriage that you have to earn by cluttering your deck with victory cards: but on the other hand, You start with 4 trade tokens, so all players can Throne two times before they need to do that.

I specificly made It cost 2 Trade tokens, so that its easier to use with other Trade cards, And so that a player cant use a workshop to Empty Estates in a single turn.

Edit: So appearently theres a fan mechanic Called Edicts, that is quite similar to What i aimed for with Ambition. I still don't feel like changing the name of the mechanic, as theres some sublte difference, but mostly because i want to feel original.

Also, after some feedback from the others here and on the Discord server, with this version instead: Credit to Shael for the wording and BEtter color here
« Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 11:08:32 am by fika monster »
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #181 on: March 11, 2021, 06:15:30 pm »
+3

Oops, seems like something's amiss with my entry. I will edit it in the hopes of getting it fixed.  :)

Edit: This is done.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 06:33:52 pm by X-tra »
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #182 on: March 11, 2021, 08:17:06 pm »
+1

Quote
Tunnel Digger
$3 - Action - Victory
You may spend a trade token to discard up to 3 cards, then draw cards equal to 2 more than you discarded. If you don't, +$1 and you may discard an action card for +1 Trade.
-
When you gain this, +2 Trade.
You can only get the strong effect twice before you have to start paying for it.
I wanted to make it an action-victory card with a different name, but then I'd need two dividing lines so I went with this.
...Actually, hmmm, I might be able to do without the on-gain.
Quote
Cairn
$4 - Action - Victory
You may spend a trade token to discard up to 3 cards, then draw cards equal to 2 more than you discarded. If you don't, +$1 and you may discard a card for +1 Trade.
-
Worth 2VP.

Which one do you like better?

EDIT: After thinking about it a little more, I decided to go with the victory card version. So Cairn is my entry for this week.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2021, 10:11:32 am by LibraryAdventurer »
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #183 on: March 11, 2021, 09:54:34 pm »
+1

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #184 on: March 12, 2021, 01:25:01 am »
+2


Quote
Depot • $4 • Action
You may spend a Trade token to gain a card costing up to $6. If you don't, gain a card costing up to $4.
-
When you gain or trash this, gain a Trade token.

It feels a smidge too good? I think i would reduce its non-trade token gaining to "up to 3$"

I disagree.  This is a workshop variant, gaining a card up to $4 as the baseline.  Workshop costs $3, gains a card up to $4.  Most (if not all) variants that also gain a card up to $4, cost $4 with something "extra" (e.g. ironworks gives you a benefit, depending on the type of card you gain).  So for that extra initial cost, now you have the ability to spend a trade token to gain a better card.

My initial thought was that the "up to $6" was too good and "up to $5" would actually be sufficient.  But it depends on the scarcity and value of the trade tokens - assuming they maintain scarcity (as this card seems to do, getting them only on-gain or on-trash), it's effectively a 1-shot or 2-shot (if you have multiples) gain up to $6 instead of $4, so it seems fair.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #185 on: March 12, 2021, 01:41:43 am »
0

Something pretty simple:



Edit: Made it a little more usable.

I like the improved version - definitely makes it work better (and less like a ruined market).  However, I think this card is now strictly better than Royal Carriage.  "You may play an Action card from your hand" is the same as "+1 Action" on RC.  "+1 Trade" effectively works the same as setting aside the RC on your Tavern Mat (sets up the ability to Throne Room an Action card).  And it can stack to TR cards multiple times (play multiple Grand Ships and/or stockpile Trade tokens, compared to playing and setting aside multiple RCs).

However, Grand Ship stays in your deck and can re-activate the +1 Trade quicker than RC (doesn't miss a shuffle).  Stacking doesn't require multiples of this card (as long as your deck cycles quick enough) whereas you have to buy multiple RCs to stack the effect.  And the Trade token could be used for other benefits if the Kingdom has other cards that could use it (alternatively, gaining Trade tokens from other cards in the Kingdom allows the TR ability on this to be potentially that much stronger).  With all this, it would probably need to cost $6, but that's starting to feel very steep for a TR variant.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #186 on: March 12, 2021, 01:49:11 am »
0

IDK how to make it smaller sorry



I really like this idea.  As a baseline, it's a Cellar.  The ability to gain Trade tokens is powerful enough in the card, you probably don't need the "when you gain this, +1 Trade" like the original cards (and in reality, that on-gain with this card just gives you a single extra +1 Card whenever you want, which is hardly worth it being there).  And because it's that much easier to gain Trade tokens, it probably wouldn't work well with other designed cards... but that wasn't a requirement of the contest, so no big deal.

However, I'm wondering if $3 is still too cheap.  It makes it very easy to stack for mega-turns.  It might be okay at $3, but I'd probably start it at $4 and see how it plays if I were creating and playtesting this.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #187 on: March 12, 2021, 02:02:23 am »
0

I have played many games with the Enterprise fan expansion. I think the trade token mechanic is a really cool idea. I haven't ever entered one of these contests, but seeing how one of my favorite mechanics is the focus of this one, I thought I'd give it a crack.

I love the idea that trade tokens are hard to get. However, if you have only one Enterprise card in your kingdom, basically the only way to get one is to buy another one of that card, making them true one-shot cards. I wanted to try to address that problem, while still making them scarce. Enter the Heirloom.  Heirlooms are always in the kingdom with the other card, so you will always have an alternate way to get Trade tokens (aside from just buying another copy of the original card). You also can't stock up on them (you'll get one and like it, mister). I thought it needed to be slowed down in order to maintain the proper scarcity, so it has to go hide on your Tavern mat until recalled for that precious token.



Welcome to the design contests... I've only recently joined these too.  It's a lot of fun.  I think you've really found a good balance here, using the heirloom/reserve, to interact with other cards that have Trade tokens.  A peddler variant is always fun to work with, to take that card worth "a little more than $4" and see how we can modify it.  The occasional +$3 might be too much (+$2 might be enough), but I don't have a feel for how often you would get it, so it's hard to say - it looks like less than once per shuffle, judging by the single heirloom and the reserve mechanic being used.  It could be very powerful with a thin deck and/or fast cycling, but very weak otherwise.



The Goods are a deck of 10 sideways card-shaped objects, like Boons and Hexes. Each time you gain a Foreign Trader, put the next Good face-up in a pile, and its effect remains active until covered. The Goods aren't reshuffled; even if the players somehow manage to gain more than ten total Foreign Traders, the tenth Good remains face-up for the rest of the game.

I like this idea. If i understood correctly, the Effect is global? ie, it works for all players

If so, it would be a cool Kingdom modifier, that changes it in a landscape like way, but swtiches the way you play

Effectively these are temporary Landmarks, it looks like (though these mostly don't affect VPs like Landmarks do), in that they affect the way you play.  And needing to adapt (to maximize benefit) throughout the game would be interesting.  I like the concept.  It obviously wouldn't work well with the power level of other Trade token cards, but this design could be its own mechanic entirely (having its own type of tracking token).  At first glance, it looked like the balance between all the Goods might need a bit of adjusting, but it is a good starting point.

-------------

I know, I know... I've now gone and posted a whole bunch here (flooding the thread - mods, feel free to combine my posts if you want.  I originally intended to just comment on one or two, but I ended up really liking a lot of these and commented on a lot more... I'm so glad I'm not judging this contest - there's so much variety and they all look so fun).  I hope to post my own creation over the weekend some time.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #188 on: March 12, 2021, 05:05:42 am »
0

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #189 on: March 12, 2021, 07:07:54 am »
0


Quote
Depot • $4 • Action
You may spend a Trade token to gain a card costing up to $6. If you don't, gain a card costing up to $4.
-
When you gain or trash this, gain a Trade token.

It feels a smidge too good? I think i would reduce its non-trade token gaining to "up to 3$"

I disagree.  This is a workshop variant, gaining a card up to $4 as the baseline.  Workshop costs $3, gains a card up to $4.  Most (if not all) variants that also gain a card up to $4, cost $4 with something "extra" (e.g. ironworks gives you a benefit, depending on the type of card you gain).  So for that extra initial cost, now you have the ability to spend a trade token to gain a better card.

My initial thought was that the "up to $6" was too good and "up to $5" would actually be sufficient.  But it depends on the scarcity and value of the trade tokens - assuming they maintain scarcity (as this card seems to do, getting them only on-gain or on-trash), it's effectively a 1-shot or 2-shot (if you have multiples) gain up to $6 instead of $4, so it seems fair.

this was my rationale as well; i made it "up to $6" because on i don't think there's that much of a gap between $5 and $6, and you'll usually have too many terminals if you *just* aim to gain $6s with it (gold excluded, which, who cares, skulk gives you gold and skulk stinks), which means you're using it as the dud version as well to gain villages or lackeys or whatever the splitting criteria is.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #190 on: March 12, 2021, 08:40:40 am »
+1

Neat Theme this week!


anyfeedback?

I'm put off by the double horizontal line. I think you could put the middle and lower part both behind a setup: clause. I'm also not sure if it's a good idea to make people start with 4 tokens.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #191 on: March 12, 2021, 09:41:51 am »
+1

Neat Theme this week!


anyfeedback?

Neat Theme this week!

I hope im not breaking any rules, as im sort of bringing in my own mechanic here: "Ambition". Ambition are like a project that affects all players during the whole game. Combining that with the idea Of trade Tokens seemed cool to me, so i decided to do just that.

Anyway: Heres my submission this week: "governance",


Its a Royal carriage that you have to earn by cluttering your deck with victory cards: but on the other hand, You start with 4 trade tokens, so all players can Throne two times before they need to do that.

I specificly made It cost 2 Trade tokens, so that its easier to use with other Trade cards, And so that a player cant use a workshop to Empty Estates in a single turn.

I'm not sure why you didn't make this an Edict; You can get rid of the first horizontal line, imo - both of those effects are "how playing the game is changed by this card". I'd see where the text size is at at that point and tweak accordingly; as-is, it's way too small.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #192 on: March 12, 2021, 10:56:06 am »
+1



I'm not sure why you didn't make this an Edict; You can get rid of the first horizontal line, imo - both of those effects are "how playing the game is changed by this card". I'd see where the text size is at at that point and tweak accordingly; as-is, it's way too small.
I didnt know about edicts or or the guide you linked to: I'll give it a check
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emtzalex

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #193 on: March 12, 2021, 12:10:25 pm »
0

Something pretty simple:



Edit: Made it a little more usable.

I like the improved version - definitely makes it work better (and less like a ruined market).  However, I think this card is now strictly better than Royal Carriage.  "You may play an Action card from your hand" is the same as "+1 Action" on RC.  "+1 Trade" effectively works the same as setting aside the RC on your Tavern Mat (sets up the ability to Throne Room an Action card).  And it can stack to TR cards multiple times (play multiple Grand Ships and/or stockpile Trade tokens, compared to playing and setting aside multiple RCs).

However, Grand Ship stays in your deck and can re-activate the +1 Trade quicker than RC (doesn't miss a shuffle).  Stacking doesn't require multiples of this card (as long as your deck cycles quick enough) whereas you have to buy multiple RCs to stack the effect.  And the Trade token could be used for other benefits if the Kingdom has other cards that could use it (alternatively, gaining Trade tokens from other cards in the Kingdom allows the TR ability on this to be potentially that much stronger).  With all this, it would probably need to cost $6, but that's starting to feel very steep for a TR variant.

I'm not sure I agree. You have to have this in your hand at the same time as whatever Action card you want to (re)play. As anyone who has drawn a King's Court without any Action cards in hand knows, that is not a sure thing. While (unlike King's Court) this is not totally useless (as it allows you to add a Trade token to be used on the next hit), you still ultimately have to collide it sooner or later (and may be put in a position of having to choose between replaying not-the-best Action card versus waiting another shuffle to try to match it up). By contrast, Royal Carriage can used to replayed ANY Action card played after it. You can double-play an Action card immediately, or you can wait multiple turns for the Action card you really want to play twice.

Also, while RC lets you decide after the Action is played whether to replay it, Grand Ship requires you to select the Action card you might replay in advance. So if I drew a RC - Vagrant (and no other Actions), I could play the RC, play the Vagrant, and then decide whether to replay the Vagrant (possibly knowing what the next card on the deck is), or, if the Vagrant drew a better Action card, play that and replay with RC. By contrast, if I drew Grand Ship - Vagrant, I would play the Vagrant with Grand Ship, but if I drew a Hunting Grounds I would not be able to replay that card. (There are also marginal cases where +1 Action is not the same as you may play a card, e.g. with Cavalry, but those are too rare to meaningfully impact the card's value).

EDIT: One analogy might be Chapel / Ratcatcher.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 12:12:10 pm by emtzalex »
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #194 on: March 12, 2021, 12:13:13 pm »
0

I think the improved version is really good.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #195 on: March 12, 2021, 12:53:00 pm »
0





Welcome to the design contests... I've only recently joined these too.  It's a lot of fun.  I think you've really found a good balance here, using the heirloom/reserve, to interact with other cards that have Trade tokens.  A peddler variant is always fun to work with, to take that card worth "a little more than $4" and see how we can modify it.  The occasional +$3 might be too much (+$2 might be enough), but I don't have a feel for how often you would get it, so it's hard to say - it looks like less than once per shuffle, judging by the single heirloom and the reserve mechanic being used.  It could be very powerful with a thin deck and/or fast cycling, but very weak otherwise.

Thanks! Tested it in a game last night and it felt over powered early and then fell into line about where I expected it to. I think the things that led to it feeling that way were a thin early deck and early was when I was buying them (which gives a token). Going to consider ways to nerf it early rather than changing the whole card, first. Thanks for the feedback!
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #196 on: March 13, 2021, 05:38:00 am »
+3

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #197 on: March 13, 2021, 06:10:12 am »
+1



one thing I don't like about this is it totally takes anything the other player does out of it. very much reinforces the multiplayer solitaire aspect of dominion. Something like, "if you have at least 15 trade tokens, +10vp and the game is over immediately" would ease my mind (10 being a number i pulled from nowhere, really - a little better than a province + a duchy; i'm sure there's an appropriate "close the gap" number)
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #198 on: March 13, 2021, 07:00:48 am »
0

Mh. I think the unconditional aspect would actually lead to a pretty neat dynamic.

Suppose your opponent is going for Cartels. They're not going to buy Provinces, which means that you need all eight of them to end the game. This is also the case if your opponent goes for alt VP, but the difference is that alt VP accumulate VP gradually, whereas this is all or nothing, which makes it so being 1 point ahead is as good as 25 Points. This means that you'll essentially always want to 3-pile; buying Provinces is likely to be a waste of money.

Conversely, suppose you are buying Cartels. In this case, you're just waiting for your opponent to start greening, so that they acquire useless victory points and handicap their ability to three-pile. This should make your opponent hesitant to buy the first Province, which means they'll build on their engine instead, which in turn makes Cartel worse because the 3-pile is closer. Given all that, optimal play should be to delay greening on both sides, estimate the point at which Cartel is no longer worth it, and then go green. Alternatively, buy Cartels if you think your opponent estimated incorrectly and bought the first province too early.

If Cartel did say "+X VP, end the game" instead, this would change the dynamic a lot since now you do want to buy Provinces against it. I'm not sure how it plays now, but it feels more similar to other Alt VPs, which I don't like.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #199 on: March 13, 2021, 08:48:07 am »
+1

Mh. I think the unconditional aspect would actually lead to a pretty neat dynamic.

Suppose your opponent is going for Cartels. They're not going to buy Provinces, which means that you need all eight of them to end the game. This is also the case if your opponent goes for alt VP, but the difference is that alt VP accumulate VP gradually, whereas this is all or nothing, which makes it so being 1 point ahead is as good as 25 Points. This means that you'll essentially always want to 3-pile; buying Provinces is likely to be a waste of money.

Conversely, suppose you are buying Cartels. In this case, you're just waiting for your opponent to start greening, so that they acquire useless victory points and handicap their ability to three-pile. This should make your opponent hesitant to buy the first Province, which means they'll build on their engine instead, which in turn makes Cartel worse because the 3-pile is closer. Given all that, optimal play should be to delay greening on both sides, estimate the point at which Cartel is no longer worth it, and then go green. Alternatively, buy Cartels if you think your opponent estimated incorrectly and bought the first province too early.

If Cartel did say "+X VP, end the game" instead, this would change the dynamic a lot since now you do want to buy Provinces against it. I'm not sure how it plays now, but it feels more similar to other Alt VPs, which I don't like.

ok but like. picture a kc-cartel game. whoever lines theirs up better wins, the end. you take a complex game and reduce it to shuffle luck. Or in games with no gainers, no +buy - three piling might not be on the table, at which point it's whoever can luck into an early $5 wins.

you do it my way, and all the sudden it still matters what you do as the other player in those scenarios.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2021, 09:13:54 am by spineflu »
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #200 on: March 13, 2021, 09:14:09 am »
+3

Toymaker
Action - $5
Gain a card costing up to $4. You may pay a Trade token to put it in your hand and get +1 Action. If you didn't, take a Trade token.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2021, 09:32:42 pm by NoMoreFun »
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #201 on: March 13, 2021, 09:14:44 am »
0

ok but like. picture a kc-cartel game. whoever lines theirs up better wins, the end. you take a complex game and reduce it to shuffle luck. Or in games with no gainers, no +buy - three piling might not be on the table, at which point it's whoever can luck into an early $5 wins.

I agree, but how is that different from KC+Wharf? Or even different from a Cartel that ends the game with +20VP? If the support is too strong, it dominates the board and the strategic considerations become trivial.
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spineflu

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #202 on: March 13, 2021, 10:01:59 am »
0

ok but like. picture a kc-cartel game. whoever lines theirs up better wins, the end. you take a complex game and reduce it to shuffle luck. Or in games with no gainers, no +buy - three piling might not be on the table, at which point it's whoever can luck into an early $5 wins.

I agree, but how is that different from KC+Wharf? Or even different from a Cartel that ends the game with +20VP? If the support is too strong, it dominates the board and the strategic considerations become trivial.
Because the lucky KC-wharf player can still blow their opportunity. Or maybe they lucked into it at the wrong time and don't have their economy up to fully utilize their bounty of cards/buys. Because what the other player does still matters, because there isn't some card saying "i win".
that doesnt address the early $5/no +buy scenario.
and who's saying 20vp?
like you're just putting words in my mouth now.
Your card needs tweaking because as is you're turning multiplayer solitaire into regular solitaire.

I think it's better to have boards where Cartel is clearly the wrong option (via not giving enough victory points, such as in a colony game) than boards where it's the only option, and once you fall behind in the Cartel-trade-token race, you're SOL
« Last Edit: March 13, 2021, 11:07:46 am by spineflu »
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #203 on: March 13, 2021, 12:07:01 pm »
0

Well, you have to differentiate (a) probability of winning, and (b) opportunity to influence the outcome with skill. If we're just talking about the probability of winning, I'm pretty sure that Cartel has less of a first-player-who-gets-it advantage than many other 5$'s like Sentry. Since Trade tokens don't help your deck, there is no snowball effect, which means playing the card once before your opponent gets it gives you a +1 head start on your opponent, but that's it. Since there is further luck that determines how often you draw your Cartels and how they collide, this shouldn't change your probability of getting to 15 first all that much. On the other hand, if you play Sentry before your opponent, you get to play Sentry again quicker and so on.

But the first play not being decisive isn't that big of a consolation if it comes down to luck anyway, so I think your critique does make sense if you phrase it in terms of how much opportunity you have to influence the result with better decisions.
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spineflu

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #204 on: March 13, 2021, 12:21:40 pm »
0

Since Trade tokens don't help your deck,

a resource that's useable by other cards, and gainable by other cards, 🤔

like i don't disagree if Cartel was the only one that used them, but uh a whole lot of stuff in this thread alone uses them, in ways that improve your deck, in ways that make them easier to gain than one per turn.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #205 on: March 13, 2021, 12:30:39 pm »
0

Sure, but you're far more likely to have a game without other cards using Trade tokens than you are to have a game with such cards, at least if you play full random. Just as you're more likely to have a game without KC than one with KC. I generally don't tend to think too much about how cards interact with other cards from the same expansion, although I know some people do.
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Nobody

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #206 on: March 14, 2021, 12:23:32 pm »
+4

25 hours warning
Submissions are so far:
Trade Cutter(Xen3k)
Depot(Spineflu)
Speculator(emtzalex)
Storehouse(MrHiTech)
Yeoman(Aquila)
Foreign Trader/Goods(Something_Smart)
Muster(Timinou)
Bargaining Chip/Leverage(DunnoItAll)
Grand Ship(X-tra)
Governance(fika monster)
Cairn(LibraryAdventurer)
Cartel(silverspawn)
Toymaker(NoMoreFun)

Tell me, when I oversaw something.
If you want to change your entry, please do it in the original post, to make sure, that I´ll see it.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #207 on: March 15, 2021, 02:26:13 pm »
+2

Submissions closed.
Judgement will come tomorrow.
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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #208 on: March 17, 2021, 11:59:10 am »
+4

Judgement


Xen3k´s Trade Cutter
A well balanced card, but nothing too interesting. You can do more with the mechanic.

spineflu´s Depot
This is extremely cool. With the trigger, I can imagine, that you can pull off some neat tricks. But even, if it would´nt had this cool trigger, it would be a fun card.

emtzalex´ Speculator
Very interesting card, even without the Trade tokens(which make the card even more interesting). However, this looks broken, especially when you draw more than 6 non-Treasure cards in your turn. More than +$6 is just too much.

MrHiTech´s Storehouse
A very interesting cellar variant. I think it´ll create some fun moments, when you have to guess, how many cards you have to draw, to get the needed. Also, its very nice for advanced players, since you have to know your deck well and have to think about stuff like triggering shuffles. I like it.

Aquila´s Yeoman
I like the mini  game, it really creates some tension. However this looks overpowered to me. if you don´t buy any, for the other player, this is as strong as  provinces, so you´re almost forced to gain this.

Something_Smart´s Foreign Trader/Goods
Really cool idea, which creates interesting choices. What is more important? That the other player can´t use the current Good? Or that I get the needed card? Should I use the Trade tokens now? Or do I hope, that I can reveal "Tea"? Unfortunately, I think the Goods are´nt well balanced.

Timinou´s Muster
Wow, this looks fun. So every player can setup a huge turn twice in the game. It´s a really cool idea and I think, it works out as intended.

DunnoItAll´s Bargaining Chip/Leverage
I really like the idea of a Heirloom, that gives Trade tokens. I´m also pretty glad, that you removed the Cantrip version. My only problem with this card is, the trigger of the Heirloom. No other Heirloom card refers to its kingdom card. That is´nt a real problem, but it just feels weird. I think, it´s just not fun, when you´re forced to buy an explicit card, to use a Heirloom.

X-tra´s Grand Ship
I like it. Compared to Royal carriage however, this seems to be too strong. I think, it will be really fun to replay an Action card 8 times, but its just too strong and too easy achieved. Yes, it has to collide with the right card, but that´s not enough compensation.

fika monster´s Governance
Hey, that´s a cool idea. The idea, that you can green earlier, to play Action cards twice is neat. However, I don´t think, you will gain 2 Estates, to replay an Action card. Maybe it would help, if you´d start with one Trade token already. Okay, this already has an use in the end, but that´s not half as interesting as in the beginning.

LibraryAdventurer´s Cairn
Okay, so this something between Cellar and Moat and VPs. I think the card is fine, but does´nt uses the Trade tokens in a too interesting way.

silverspawn´s Cartell
So this is one of these "You win" cards. I like new win-conditions, but a simple "You win" is hard to implement. There are lots of ways to do it and this looks like one of the cleverer ones. I do´nt think, this is well balanced, but it just influences the game in a boring way. When you go for Cartell, you do´nt have any interesting choices, but just play Cartell as often as possible.

NoMoreFun´s Toymaker
Another Workshop variant and also a cool one. Tis is a really interesting card, but unfortunately I do´nt see any reason, why you used Trade tokens and not the normal Journey token.


Third Runner up: MrHiTech´s Storehouse

Second runner up: Something_Smart´s Foreign Trader/Goods

First runner up: Timinou´s Muster

And the Winner is: SPINEFLU`S DEPOT

Hope, you enjoyed it.
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emtzalex

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #209 on: March 17, 2021, 01:26:50 pm »
+1

Thanks for judging this one, Nobody. These Trade tokens are so versatile, they got me thinking about how they might interact with some of the other fan mechanics we've done contest with:

Worshippers



Conditions:





With Dawn cards, my first inclination was to do another variation on Muster, a Dawn-Action that only draws Action cards and doesn't give +Actions, meaning it either has to be played as a Dawn or with a villager, or else the Action cards are drawn dead. With the Trade tokens you can have a third option, a one-shot where you can also get +Actions.


But I actually came up with something I find more interesting:

This is a terminal draw card, but one where getting it non-terminally as a Dawn might actually be a disadvantage, since you might hesitate to use the discard-for-gain. Here, the trade token's one-shot might more like be used during the Dawn phase, you can keep all your cards and have a full turn.



I then went back and made some other cross-mechanic cards:

Worshippers + Conditions

(I think this is way underpriced)

Worshippers + Dawn


Conditions + Dawn


All 4 crammed in to one card:



This lead me to another idea I had, which I am going to float out there. Every 6th-11th round (or so), we could do a Season Finale, and have each of the submissions include at least 2 of the mechanics previously used over that "Season" (e.g. the 5-10 contests since the last Season Finale). This would have to be at the discretion of each contest winner from the later part of each season, but it might be a fun thing, and potentially be another option for people who don't know what fan mechanic they want to use.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 01:28:23 pm by emtzalex »
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he/him/his

Thanks to Shard of Honor for his Extended Version of the Dominion Card Image Generator, which I use to mock up my fan cards, and to Violet CLM, who made the original.

spineflu

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #210 on: March 17, 2021, 01:29:16 pm »
+1

Whoa, awesome, ty Nobody.

I'm of two minds about which mechanic I want to judge on - either
Wonders, a landscape card that can give big rewards, which we'll have to have some deliberation on ground rules for use, since it's been implemented a couple different ways
OR
Route tokens, a coin token+mat mechanic that wouldn't require deliberation

So sound off on which you want to design for, and we'll go based on majority vote on Friday around noon EDT. If you opt for Wonder, toss in what you think the ground rules should be.
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BBobb

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #211 on: March 17, 2021, 01:50:58 pm »
+1

Whoa, awesome, ty Nobody.

I'm of two minds about which mechanic I want to judge on - either
Wonders, a landscape card that can give big rewards, which we'll have to have some deliberation on ground rules for use, since it's been implemented a couple different ways
OR
Route tokens, a coin token+mat mechanic that wouldn't require deliberation

So sound off on which you want to design for, and we'll go based on majority vote on Friday around noon EDT. If you opt for Wonder, toss in what you think the ground rules should be.
I'd love to see Wonder cards, like the ones the X-tra had.
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Hand - King's Court, Ruined Village, Estate, Copper, Possession
Turn -
BBobb plays King's Court
… and plays a Ruined Village.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined Village again.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined village a third time.
… … getting +1 Action.
BBobb plays a Copper.
BBobb buys a Poor House.
(BBobb draws: 2 King's Courts and 3 Possessions)
BBobb=GOD

X-tra

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #212 on: March 17, 2021, 02:41:26 pm »
+1

Wonders were just an adaptation of an idea that didn't originate as mine, and I sketched that one up very quickly without much thinking. I'd drop the "Builder" extra resource entirely, it's just too tedious to have extra Potion-like components (Potions rank consistently as the most disliked mechanic out of Dominion). Then there's the whole idea of, Wonders have different number of build steps in 2-3 player games as opposed to 4+ player games. Each step has a different cost, meaning there can be some feelsbad player advantage.

All in all, not too sure about this one anymore.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 02:42:28 pm by X-tra »
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mathdude

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #213 on: March 17, 2021, 04:14:43 pm »
+2

I see the Route tokens as having a lot of similarities to Trade tokens (potentially). I think the Wonder would be fun to work with.

As for ground rules? It doesn't likely have to interact with a specific card so designing a card doesn't make sense. I think the contest has to be designing the Wonder. I assume it would be a Mat, though maybe it could be a landscape card (or even a regular card?) Design how it is built (communal or individual, keep the "spend a buy and put some of your remaining coins towards it" or change to something else) and how that building is tracked (set aside cards from your hand if that's how you build it, or put tokens on a personal Wonder or colored cubes on a communal Wonder). What is its cost? What benefit does it offer (and how? like if it's a regular card, it could go in your deck... otherwise it could be like a Landmark or Project)? Are 2nd, 3rd place etc. allowed or if not, what compensation do they get for their contributions?

And obviously design has to account for options to play with 2-6 players, as well as not being a distraction from the game (should enhance, not be a minigame), yet also allow the option for not going for a Wonder as a viable strategy.
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fika monster

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #214 on: March 18, 2021, 07:37:02 am »
+2

voting wonder
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spineflu

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #215 on: March 19, 2021, 01:31:14 pm »
+1

ok, Wonders it is.

This Life Makes Me Wonder
Wonders are a landscape card that all players buy in several chunks over the course of the game.
The person who buys the most chunks gets a big bonus, and there can also be a small bonus for completing a chunk.
The cost for a step, and whether it requires a special card to be able to build is up to you.
Here's some instances/attempts at Wonders from X-tra and myself:

I know if I were redesigning mine today, the build card criteria would just be "you need to have silver in play". You're using silver anyway, it takes the wonder out of the opening calculus, no kvetching about opportunity cost, really just simplifies everything.

Some design decisions/criteria for you:
• It may make more sense to do a "2 player" version and a "3+ player" version (or doing a front/back card some other way - 2-3 player/ 4+, etc)
• It may drastically simplify things if every build step costs the same; however you could also do something where the build steps cost different amounts, to bake in strategy or something
• You may want to just have it cost a buy and some money; that's fine, but may give first player advantage. You may want to require it to cost a certain type of card; again, that's up to you - I know some people hate that potion cards have an opportunity cost, i really don't mind, but I'd lean towards doing this Young Witch style (add a card costing between X and Y; that's the "build card" this game) rather than a new flavor of Treasure That Does Nothing But This.
• You may want to have it be sort of a limited Artifact, where the player with the most built steps gets an ongoing bonus (and then eventually the steps run out.)
• You're still playing dominion, and not going for the wonder should probably be competitive with going for the wonder. A "you win the game" wonder will not win this contest.
• Try to keep it under 4 lines. This will be tough - there's a lot that needs to go on the card.

And then some format provisos:
• you don't have to bust out photoshop to do this; just say how many steps / cost per step (or cost for a given step, if you're doing unique costs), whether and how it changes with player scaling, and then use the card generator to mock up the actual effect text (or don't and i'll do that later when checking text length, that's fine).
• I think I just used the "Treasure" color with the landscape option on the card generator. You're welcome to do whatever.
• If you'd rather implement the steps using some sort of tokens-on-the-wonder to start, people take tokens when they build and put them on a mat (or similar), that's probably a good way to do it.

Judging will be next week Saturday (Mar 27); Contest will close around dinner time Friday (Mar 26). Let me know if you have further questions.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2021, 04:55:25 pm by spineflu »
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Aquila

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Re: New Weekly Contest: Fan Card Mechanics
« Reply #216 on: March 20, 2021, 06:56:27 pm »
+5

Some theory-crafting:

What does the mechanic add to Dominion?
Player interaction where an opponent's decisions can affect your priorities each turn. Sacrifice is made to deck building in order to invest in future prospects, which may or may not be successful. The ultimate reward is something one can shape their strategy around, yet being prepared to give up on it and pivot into different play is sensible.

So, I don't think a specific Builder card is a good idea. It's inflexible, and when a player buys one, they are laying their intention bare and others can easily adapt. This adaptation could be mirror play or ignoring the Wonder to slow the completion down for that player.
Sometimes this can happen with a Build pile as well, if the selected pile is bad in the kingdom.

Implications of different rewards:
VP would be competitive, but make players feel obliged to participate.
A passive effect like a Project would need to be worthwhile late game, otherwise a single buyer (others ignoring to slow completion down) may himself give up investing.
A straight up bonus like Coffers sets up a mega turn or turns.
A nice reward given for simply building a step could see it used like an Event, and the big prize an incidental; on the other hand, competition can be increased to deny them to opponents. A weak step building reward is more about investing in the big prize, and second/third etc. place prizes are suggested as well.

How many steps?
More tiers implies later game, but also more catch-up potential (and this would suggest cheapness and no Buy required). Fewer implies first buyer advantage more, and if one can't reasonably overtake the ignore scenario arises again.
An odd number establishes a definite winner in 2-player, whilst even makes ties possible and presumably both get the big prize. The choice depends on audience I guess, I might be more inclined to an even number since losing despite hard effort due to seating order or shuffle luck can feel bad.

What build price?
Paying $ can work, though rules about whether it would be a Buy and if more than one step could be built per turn need to be addressed.
A specified card to discard (at the Buy phase) could be a good way to let multiple steps be built at once, with multiple copies discarded, letting catch-ups happen. Silver is a good card for this, since it doesn't give anything definite away, it's still useful so one can pivot out of building steps easier, losing $2 to spend for the turn is a distinct cost, and building can usually start from the first shuffle so plenty of time is given for the big prize to count.

And so, my entry is:
Quote
Grand Library - Wonder
4 steps per player

Build: discard a Silver for one step or a Gold for two; you may trash the Treasure for double the number.
Completion: biggest contributors move 2 of their +bonus tokens onto an Action Supply pile, second biggest 1.

This building method is competitive yet not overly intrusive on strategy. The reward is about Actions, so the Silvers and Golds will probably get in the