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Author Topic: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline  (Read 47802 times)

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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #225 on: January 02, 2021, 06:55:12 pm »
0

I always wanted Secret Place more to prepare a future turn than act as a pseudo-trasher (in this function it isn't so different from Exile). This version is too strong as pseudo-trasher, specially in first turns.

     


So I think in this version. You still can try to use it as pseudo-trasher, but I think it is more trickier to do now.

     


EDIT: Now I see that the problem with all versions so far, including the above, is that you don't have a reason to put good cards there. So, I'm trying a new approach:


     



« Last Edit: January 02, 2021, 08:36:50 pm by Carline »
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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #226 on: January 03, 2021, 04:09:12 am »
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I want to have an old woman and a child in set, so here they are:

     
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #227 on: January 03, 2021, 01:19:52 pm »
+1

Here's a look through the first post without remembering what others have already said. They're nearly all mechanically sound by now, so I'll try to focus on interest level:

Healer - it's an optional trash with a buy, straight away desirable for engines. The reaction can be a further trash if you happen to have a nice discard pile or top card of deck to trash. Do you have an attack in the set that this reacts well against? Buffoon, maybe Nightmare, Young Saboteur and Sorceress, Way of the Medusa and most of the other beasts, so plenty.
Very desirable purchase, maybe it's a $3.

Mirror - one shot throne you can choose to save by trashing the target instead. Simple and effective, and interesting with it.

Small Village - the first play is of course most desirable for a village, but from there having the +buy lets these be very collectable. Each effect neutralises the other in a way, possibly for better or worse. I think better? I've tried a pure +2 Actions +buy at $2 and it's a bit clunky, you'd like the draw here.
So whilst only mildly interesting, it's there as a village doing what it needs to do. There are 10 possible villages/splitters here (nearly a quarter of the kingdom cards), 3 of which also give +buys (Maid, Sisterhood, Marketplace). It's one of the ways I would call this less of an expansion and more a collection of cards you have made and like.

Taverner - 2 buys on demand. Can't say it's exciting me much. Other +buy sources here can be very similar but do more for you, like Maid and Sisterhood.

Wanderer - similar to Healer in being $1 and optional trash. The copper to hand is fine to spike to $5, and it has rare other combos; here I'm only seeing Tavern Nights as a combo.
You'll get it for $2, decently interesting as a non-terminal trasher with an extra niche.

Horse Lady - it's a slow start, but becomes an almost lab once you can reliably play a horse later in the turn. Multiples of these support each other, but because they're stop cards shuffle randomness can work against them.
It's probably balanced, or maybe it's a $2. The latent power might make this interesting, or it's annoyingly swingy.

Maid - Steward without the trashing (so way less powerful) and +Actions and buys instead. It might be uninteresting to make the decision sometimes; do you go with $ to get $8, or go with Actions and Cards to see if you can do more? Steward is always a terminal engine piece so the decision is narrower, simpler and more straightforward. And Pawn cannot be a Village so it's simpler too.
So I think I prefer Small Village to this in the Village +buy front so far.

Minstrel - sifter/inspector that likes high Action density. Probably more desirable than Border Guard, although it can fail to draw. It's simple, safe, and useful, as several of the cards here are.

There's the first installment.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2021, 04:27:32 pm by Aquila »
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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #228 on: January 03, 2021, 06:28:33 pm »
0

Here's a look through the first post without remembering what others have already said. They're nearly all mechanically sound by now, so I'll try to focus on interest level:

Thank you very much Aquila! It's very good to have a review from the interest point of view.

I know this set is still far away from have even some basic features that make an expansion. So far, I had given attention more to individual cards and to fix their flaws than to see how they play together and how balanced is the presence of each game resource. Now I have to work more in these systemic factors. By now, cards are unified mainly by theme. It’s a work in progress, and It’s very good to have your feedback and from all the others in this Forum to point the features which should be improved. From the point I posted the set, with this help from more skilled people, the cards get so much better and I learned a lot.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 09:25:12 am by Carline »
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Timinou

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #229 on: January 03, 2021, 11:15:47 pm »
+1

I always wanted Secret Place more to prepare a future turn than act as a pseudo-trasher (in this function it isn't so different from Exile). This version is too strong as pseudo-trasher, specially in first turns.

     


So I think in this version. You still can try to use it as pseudo-trasher, but I think it is more trickier to do now.

     


EDIT: Now I see that the problem with all versions so far, including the above, is that you don't have a reason to put good cards there. So, I'm trying a new approach:


     

The last version wouldn't really combo well with the Season cards that you designed.
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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #230 on: January 04, 2021, 09:28:08 am »
0

The last version wouldn't really combo well with the Season cards that you designed.

What do you mean? They're noy supposed to combo, as Seasons are non-Supply. However, I don't see any harmful interaction.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 09:34:55 am by Carline »
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Timinou

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #231 on: January 04, 2021, 09:57:07 am »
+1

The last version wouldn't really combo well with the Season cards that you designed.

What do you mean? They're noy supposed to combo, as Seasons are non-Supply. However, I don't see any harmful interaction.

It might not be your intention with Secret Place, but it's just something I think you could consider in order to have some more interaction between the different concepts in your expansion.   The first time you posted the Season cards, I thought to myself that it would be fun to play with the original Secret Place.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #232 on: January 04, 2021, 11:58:35 am »
+5

I strongly suggest simplifying Healer. That text is almost unreadably tiny and the effect will be hard to remember. Honestly, lots of attacks put bad cards into your discard pile anyway, either by giving you junk, making you discard cards, or just incidentally flipping past cards looking for good stuff to trash. And of course sometimes you'll just have cards in your discard pile.

Donald X. has a rule these days for all new cards that text has to fit with the large font. I'm not saying all fan cards have to do so as well, but I think it's a good goal to shoot for. To that end, here's my suggested version of Healer (with different art since I couldn't quickly find the art you used):



EDIT: Whoops! I missed the "r" on "another".
« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 11:59:48 am by LastFootnote »
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #233 on: January 04, 2021, 04:57:33 pm »
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This is cleaner and simpler. The trash is no longer optional but you can also trash this itself to the reaction if you're done with it. Because of losing the option to trash I feel it's closer to $2 cost as well. Good suggestions.

Carrying on a bit further:

Money Trick - it can quite easily become a Peddler with its reaction, but drawing another Money Trick with it means losing a Peddler or +buy from the deck, although with a + $3 bonus. So it has 3 functions (buy, Peddler, Gold) that each call for slightly different deck building strategies to optimise.
So it is interesting, if balanced at $3. It feels maybe $4 range.

Morning - Moat that becomes a lab if the only card in play. It can be rather swingy mid to late game unless you collect lots of them to become your deck's draw; $2 to $5 strength is big. Openings are also an issue here, buying a lab on a $3 turn is a convincing deal lots of the time.
Probably the right price but not that interesting.

Nurse - like Night Watchman, it sorts the top of the deck to prepare the next hand, exchanging a deeper look for drawing an extra card. It's also like a slightly better half-Den of Sin.
I find it quite interesting as I find Night Watchman quite interesting, but seeing that there are 2 very similar official cards, the interest is dampened a bit. Similarity to official cards may not bother you.

Sisterhood - double Necropolis that can also become a +buy source. Useful package if the kingdom can make up for the lack of draw. Between this and Small Village...Small Village evens out the resources you get, so it's probably the preference in most engines for consistency?
Seeing this makes me like Small Village a little bit more.

There's 4 more.
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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #234 on: January 04, 2021, 08:00:49 pm »
0

I strongly suggest simplifying Healer. That text is almost unreadably tiny and the effect will be hard to remember. Honestly, lots of attacks put bad cards into your discard pile anyway, either by giving you junk, making you discard cards, or just incidentally flipping past cards looking for good stuff to trash. And of course sometimes you'll just have cards in your discard pile.

Donald X. has a rule these days for all new cards that text has to fit with the large font. I'm not saying all fan cards have to do so as well, but I think it's a good goal to shoot for. To that end, here's my suggested version of Healer (with different art since I couldn't quickly find the art you used):



EDIT: Whoops! I missed the "r" on "another".


Sooooo much better, thank you very much! I like your wise solution to don't have to say "look at your discard pile". Updated.

I also like the picture you used. I had already seem it when I was doind searchs for this card, but it seems to be already in a card game.




Edit: I made previous version going back to hand to be better in multiplayer game, but, yes, is better to lose this resource and optionality of trashing to make the card simpler and cleaner.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 11:49:56 pm by Carline »
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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #235 on: January 04, 2021, 08:46:33 pm »
0

The last version wouldn't really combo well with the Season cards that you designed.

What do you mean? They're noy supposed to combo, as Seasons are non-Supply. However, I don't see any harmful interaction.

It might not be your intention with Secret Place, but it's just something I think you could consider in order to have some more interaction between the different concepts in your expansion.   The first time you posted the Season cards, I thought to myself that it would be fun to play with the original Secret Place.


All previous versions had the same problem of being more wanted as pseudo-trashers and too strong in that role.

Though I think it maybe would be a bit slow to match Seasons in any version, I think about a "duplicate" version which could be instersting and also interact with Seasons. (edit: it doesn't interact)

          

Which version do you think is better, "gaining" one or "duplicate" one?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2021, 12:08:04 am by Carline »
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LittleFish

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #236 on: January 04, 2021, 11:19:38 pm »
+1


All previous versions had the same problem of being more wanted as pseudo-trashers and too strong in that role.

Though I think it maybe would be a bit slow to match Seasons in any version, I think about a "duplicate" version which could be instersting and also interact with Seasons. 
I may be mistaken, but the duplicate one doesn't interact with seasons, because it says "from the supply" which the seasons are not.
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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #237 on: January 04, 2021, 11:33:31 pm »
0


All previous versions had the same problem of being more wanted as pseudo-trashers and too strong in that role.

Though I think it maybe would be a bit slow to match Seasons in any version, I think about a "duplicate" version which could be instersting and also interact with Seasons. 
I may be mistaken, but the duplicate one doesn't interact with seasons, because it says "from the supply" which the seasons are not.

Yes, you're right. If I write "from its pile" could it have some undiserable interaction with existent non-supply cards?

Anyway, even not interacting with Seasons, which version is better?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 11:39:11 pm by Carline »
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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #238 on: January 04, 2021, 11:41:01 pm »
0

Could this version of Morning still cost ?

« Last Edit: January 05, 2021, 01:43:08 am by Carline »
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LittleFish

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #239 on: January 04, 2021, 11:52:13 pm »
+1


All previous versions had the same problem of being more wanted as pseudo-trashers and too strong in that role.

Though I think it maybe would be a bit slow to match Seasons in any version, I think about a "duplicate" version which could be instersting and also interact with Seasons. 
I may be mistaken, but the duplicate one doesn't interact with seasons, because it says "from the supply" which the seasons are not.

Yes, you're right. If I write "from its pile" could it have some undiserable interaction with existent non-supply cards?

Anyway, even not interacting with Seasons, which version is better?
If you write "from it's pile" it could duplicate many cards that normally are a trouble to get (Wishes)
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Timinou

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #240 on: January 05, 2021, 08:38:31 am »
0

The last version wouldn't really combo well with the Season cards that you designed.

What do you mean? They're noy supposed to combo, as Seasons are non-Supply. However, I don't see any harmful interaction.

It might not be your intention with Secret Place, but it's just something I think you could consider in order to have some more interaction between the different concepts in your expansion.   The first time you posted the Season cards, I thought to myself that it would be fun to play with the original Secret Place.


All previous versions had the same problem of being more wanted as pseudo-trashers and too strong in that role.

Though I think it maybe would be a bit slow to match Seasons in any version, I think about a "duplicate" version which could be instersting and also interact with Seasons. (edit: it doesn't interact)

          

Which version do you think is better, "gaining" one or "duplicate" one?

The duplicate version seems stronger since it allows you to gain copies onto your Secret Place mat, which would be more useful for preparing a future turn where you may want multiple copies of the same card.  On some boards, the gaining version might be quite weak if there aren't enough unique cards that you would want to put onto your mat. 
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #241 on: January 05, 2021, 04:24:33 pm »
+1

On the subject of making cards simpler, can you summarize the concept of Money Trick? There's got to be a simpler version of that card.

EDT: Also, what is a "Money Trick"? There may be a better English name for the card, depending on what it's meant to be.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2021, 04:25:58 pm by LastFootnote »
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #242 on: January 05, 2021, 04:29:47 pm »
+1

Could this version of Morning still cost ?


Here the ideal in an engine is picking up 2 of them to play each turn, starting with the lab play each time. You get the same total as smithy and caravan. It's good to do most of the time, and again opening with them both is often strong.
Is it interesting? Maybe, if this 'get 2 and no more' strategy isn't scripted too often.


Tiara - silver gainer that like Feodum can be a bundle of 3 at once, if you trash this on first play; or it's a Treasure single silver gainer that empties the pile quite quickly if you trash a silver. So it likes the Silver strategies, Tower and maybe Gardens, or generically improving money density in the deck.
Useful in several situations in different ways, it's interesting.

Valkyries - the on play is simple and a bit better than Sleigh. When it reacts, it gets a Horse for immediate use; it's a good way to do 'you may discard this for draw', a reaction I've seen tried a lot of times.
So yeah, a horse gainer that uses horses well, it's quite interesting.

Workers - very simple, it's like fishing village where you choose when to use the extra Action in exchange for the Duration aspect. You have a lot of Villages here that can't draw, but it's good that this one doesn't so the Villager can more often be carried over.
Only a little bit interesting, and maybe it's a $2 in strength.

Amazon - another non-drawing Village initially, but it simulates draw in cool ways. The next gain to hand bit is very nifty with gainers, and you will likely have the Actions to use whatever you gain straight away. Without gainers, you can still gain the Amazon's own Horses to hand.
One of my favourites here so far.

Emissary/Coin of Honour - Emissary is a bit like Priest with a Copper handout in place of the extra $, so probably worth $4. The attack is quite gentle compared to early official ones, a good thing in my mind. Sometimes it's even a gift and not a hindrance; though thinking this as a trasher might be a mistake if opponents use this as well. That might take the interest away a bit.
Coin of Honour... doesn't have any particular interaction with Emissary? Useful in itself though, reversing draws to save them for later turns; niche and not particularly affecting game balance.
So Coin could pair up with something it interacts with a bit more, and maybe Emissary doesn't quite do enough for you if its trashing is neutralised by opposing Coppers.

Faithful Knight - the single +Card makes sense with the Villager option, but it might be better changed to something else. The way it can give VP without encouraging furtherance towards game end can mean games go on for ages, but then if it's close changing some VP to Coffers to buy a Province might get you ahead.
That's an immediate decision; so now I'm thinking if this needs to give Coffers and Villagers at all, and not just +Actions and +$ instead. It seems much simpler, and saves on potential Coffers hoarding too.
So all your VP tokens get 3 possible functions. That's maybe interesting, or too complicated (or maybe high skill) or narrow to be worth the VP loss that often. Hard to tell.

Or I'm too tired. I'll stop there for now.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2021, 04:36:16 pm by Aquila »
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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #243 on: January 05, 2021, 10:54:30 pm »
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Thank you Aquila! I'm reading carefully all your comments and thinking a lot about them and changes I could do. 
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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #244 on: January 05, 2021, 11:02:17 pm »
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Proportionally, there's a lack of money from Actions and terminals in my fan set, so I think about these:

               

Could Madame cost ?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2021, 11:19:50 pm by Carline »
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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #245 on: January 06, 2021, 01:55:34 am »
0

On the subject of making cards simpler, can you summarize the concept of Money Trick? There's got to be a simpler version of that card.

EDT: Also, what is a "Money Trick"? There may be a better English name for the card, depending on what it's meant to be.

Thanks for your help, LastFootnote.

About Money Trick:

Mechanics – I started this with the idea of a card that you would better react with than play. So I think about a card which produces money when discarded and I think play actions could be an interesting trigger, they would be a kind of Peddlers not played which you can use even after terminals and even can use more than once per turn if you manage to do it. To it have some use on play, I made it a Treasure with + Buy, so sometimes you may want to play it for the +Buy. The Exile part came when I saw it could lead to an infinite loop if you already draw your deck when use it. Finally, I add a bonus when Exiling.

Theme – As it produce a money that, from play area point of view, comes from nothing, it reminds me coin tricks magicians do. This card preexists to this set and previous version was named Coin Trick. I didn’t find a good picture of a woman doing a coin trick, so I changed to “Money Trick”, which seems to me to be a name magicians do use to tricks with money. I don’t know, maybe there’s a better name.

Cost – Many comments were that it maybe would cost , so I think I will change it to this cost.

Art – One problem with the art of this card is, as it is a Treasure, Card Generator puts a big coin symbol, so there’s not much space for text. Now I made this version in Corel, with text in bigger font. I also fixed the colors order.

I’ll be very happy if you show me a simpler solution or wording for this idea.

« Last Edit: January 06, 2021, 02:04:10 am by Carline »
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segura

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #246 on: January 06, 2021, 02:06:14 am »
+1

Path is probably too good. Kusasai had the very same card but with 8D as cost some time ago.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2021, 02:07:25 am by segura »
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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #247 on: January 06, 2021, 02:42:34 am »
0

Path is probably too good. Kusasai had the very same card but with 8D as cost some time ago.

Yes, thank you for the information, I found it:



Yes, the idea is almost the same, as it doesn't affect debt cost. How would be the best cost to pay cash for it, as in Path?

Anyway, I think they are too similar, so it's better to try to find a different way for my cost reducer.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2021, 03:08:13 am by Carline »
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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #248 on: January 06, 2021, 03:26:00 am »
0


Faithful Knight -
That's an immediate decision; so now I'm thinking if this needs to give Coffers and Villagers at all, and not just +Actions and +$ instead. It seems much simpler, and saves on potential Coffers hoarding too.


Yes, I don't know how I didn't see this until you pointed. There's no sense in convert into tokens as you would always use the tokens in that moment. Updated.

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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #249 on: January 06, 2021, 03:35:33 am »
0

I made a version of Madame which could be more interesting.




Made a new Flame Keeper: (edit-updated again)




And moved its functions to Maneuver:


« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 01:31:19 am by Carline »
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