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Author Topic: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline  (Read 47777 times)

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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #100 on: December 17, 2020, 01:44:59 pm »
0

Horse Lady shouldn't have a dividing line.

I'm pretty sure Way of the Birdwoman was tried during testing and didn't make the cut.

Way of the Centaur is too weak. It should be "Gain 2 Horses." That was tested and was fine, but it died for flavor reasons.

Thank you Lastfootnote!

Horse Lady previous version had a "While this is in play". I forgot to remove the dividing line when I changed it. Updated.

Yes, I read now about the Way which gives Horses in Secret History. Due to te same flavor question, I think the best version for the Way of the Centaur would be "Gain 1 Horse and 1 Villager". Updated to it.

Way of the Birdwoman seems intersting to me. Do you remember why it didn't make the cut?


     

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segura

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #101 on: December 17, 2020, 01:49:21 pm »
+1

Centaur looks like a better Pig now.
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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #102 on: December 17, 2020, 01:56:22 pm »
0

Centaur looks like a better Pig now.

it's not strictly better, as the card drew by Pig goes to your hand.
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segura

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #103 on: December 17, 2020, 02:00:49 pm »
+1

I did not say it is strictly better. But a Villager is better than an Action and a Horse is roughly similar to drawing a cars.
Pig is already one of the strongest Ways, so I don’t see the appeal of a buffed version.
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gambit05

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #104 on: December 17, 2020, 02:11:23 pm »
+1


Some wording:

Way of the Centaur: +1 Villager. Gain a Horse.

Gargoyle: ...card of their deck...
Should be gender neutral. If you want to be funny you could write ...of her deck...

I like the new Way of the Beast idea to put them all together. I especially like the Set up sentence. I always wanted to shuffle beasts face down...
More serious: Do the players know the next Beast, i.e. is the top one face up? From the wording I assume no, but it may be worth to think about this as a set up.
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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #105 on: December 17, 2020, 03:56:27 pm »
+1

I did not say it is strictly better. But a Villager is better than an Action and a Horse is roughly similar to drawing a cars.
Pig is already one of the strongest Ways, so I don’t see the appeal of a buffed version.

In terms of game playing, I don't think it's a big problem, as it plays differently. All of these cards can be played by Way of the Mouse and are not only better than Way of the Pig, but strictly better than it (in many cases, so much better):

Harbinger, Merchant, Village, Pawn, Wishing Well, Haven, Pearl Diver, Hamlet, Menagerie, Scheme, Vagrant, Market Square, Sage, Urchin, Caravan Guard, Patrician, Settlers, Chariot Race, Pixie, Secret Cave, Border Guard.

I think it's possible in the case of the Ways and already done by an official card (Way of the Mouse) because of the recomendation of not using more than one Way per game. They will never be seen togheter, so there's no risk of the weaker be useless.

Edit: I also don't think Way of the Centaur is too much strong. You spend a card and an Action now to have a card and an Action in the future. If you save the action for the future, it's terminal.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 04:39:19 pm by Carline »
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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #106 on: December 17, 2020, 04:10:19 pm »
0


Gargoyle: ...card of their deck...

Should be gender neutral. If you want to be funny you could write ...of her deck...


I did ctrl-c ctrl-v in Spy text at Wiki and I didn't notice it. Of course, I don't want the cards of this set to use male pronoms. For my taste, I would use "her", but I think it's better be neutral. I will change it. Thank you!

I like the new Way of the Beast idea to put them all together. I especially like the Set up sentence. I always wanted to shuffle beasts face down...
More serious: Do the players know the next Beast, i.e. is the top one face up? From the wording I assume no, but it may be worth to think about this as a set up.

I used the same rule used for Hexes. I think I will keep the next Beast unrevealed, because if it's Medusa and Curses are gone no one would want to play it.

In my understanding of non-Supply card, I would say you don’t need (better: you shouldn’t have) “This is not in the Supply”. All official non-Supply cards that do not form a pile (Heirlooms, Shelters, Zombies) do not have that. All non-Supply cards that form a pile (e.g. Spoils, Horse, Bat, Madman) have it (in parentheses).

So I think I can remove it from Novices also, right?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 05:58:47 pm by Carline »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #107 on: December 17, 2020, 04:27:57 pm »
+1

Way of the Birdwoman seems intersting to me. Do you remember why it didn't make the cut?

I don't, sorry!
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gambit05

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #108 on: December 18, 2020, 05:09:51 am »
+1


Gargoyle: ...card of their deck...

Should be gender neutral. If you want to be funny you could write ...of her deck...


I did ctrl-c ctrl-v in Spy text at Wiki and I didn't notice it. Of course, I don't want the cards of this set to use male pronoms. For my taste, I would use "her", but I think it's better be neutral. I will change it. Thank you!

If you are looking how official cards word certain things, better look for cards from newer expansions and 2nd Editions. Wordings change over time, mostly to avoid edge cases, make the instructions clearer or simpler etc... In the case of "they" vs. "he", it changed sometimes around Adventures or so I think. Since Spy was removed from the Base game, 2nd Edition, it didn't got any changes.

Quote from: Carline
I like the new Way of the Beast idea to put them all together. I especially like the Set up sentence. I always wanted to shuffle beasts face down...
More serious: Do the players know the next Beast, i.e. is the top one face up? From the wording I assume no, but it may be worth to think about this as a set up.

I used the same rule used for Hexes. I think I will keep the next Beast unrevealed, because if it's Medusa and Curses are gone no one would want to play it.[/quotes]

That is a good point. However, it doesn't has to be a bad thing when the Beasts are tamed a bit later in the game. A player could always try to uncover the next Beast if they really want.

Quote from: Carline
In my understanding of non-Supply card, I would say you don’t need (better: you shouldn’t have) “This is not in the Supply”. All official non-Supply cards that do not form a pile (Heirlooms, Shelters, Zombies) do not have that. All non-Supply cards that form a pile (e.g. Spoils, Horse, Bat, Madman) have it (in parentheses).

So I think I can remove it from Novices also, right?

I would say yes. There are no equivalent official cards, but since the Novices do not form a pile, I would label them as I've mentioned above. Maybe LastFootnote is so kind to tell us what he thinks about. He is the expert!

Edit: I forget one thing, wording on Way of the Beast. It should be something like: "If you have another Action card* in play,..." or "If you have at least one other Action card in play,...".

I am not 100% sure whether the first version is unambiguous, but I would say it is clear what it means.

*Some official cards just use Action (without "card"), but I prefer to include "card".
« Last Edit: December 18, 2020, 05:34:21 am by gambit05 »
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segura

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #109 on: December 18, 2020, 05:33:48 am »
+1

I did not say it is strictly better. But a Villager is better than an Action and a Horse is roughly similar to drawing a cars.
Pig is already one of the strongest Ways, so I don’t see the appeal of a buffed version.

In terms of game playing, I don't think it's a big problem, as it plays differently. All of these cards can be played by Way of the Mouse and are not only better than Way of the Pig, but strictly better than it (in many cases, so much better):

Harbinger, Merchant, Village, Pawn, Wishing Well, Haven, Pearl Diver, Hamlet, Menagerie, Scheme, Vagrant, Market Square, Sage, Urchin, Caravan Guard, Patrician, Settlers, Chariot Race, Pixie, Secret Cave, Border Guard.

I think it's possible in the case of the Ways and already done by an official card (Way of the Mouse) because of the recomendation of not using more than one Way per game. They will never be seen togheter, so there's no risk of the weaker be useless.

Edit: I also don't think Way of the Centaur is too much strong. You spend a card and an Action now to have a card and an Action in the future. If you save the action for the future, it's terminal.
You are right that it is not a huge difference and Ways are less sensitive to power differences than Kingdom cards anyway. I nonetheless think that the card is too similar to Pig. I think it would be smarter to do stuff with only Villagers or Horses; that differentiates it more from official Ways.
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gambit05

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #110 on: December 18, 2020, 05:39:53 am »
+2

I did not say it is strictly better. But a Villager is better than an Action and a Horse is roughly similar to drawing a cars.
Pig is already one of the strongest Ways, so I don’t see the appeal of a buffed version.

In terms of game playing, I don't think it's a big problem, as it plays differently. All of these cards can be played by Way of the Mouse and are not only better than Way of the Pig, but strictly better than it (in many cases, so much better):

Harbinger, Merchant, Village, Pawn, Wishing Well, Haven, Pearl Diver, Hamlet, Menagerie, Scheme, Vagrant, Market Square, Sage, Urchin, Caravan Guard, Patrician, Settlers, Chariot Race, Pixie, Secret Cave, Border Guard.

I think it's possible in the case of the Ways and already done by an official card (Way of the Mouse) because of the recomendation of not using more than one Way per game. They will never be seen togheter, so there's no risk of the weaker be useless.

Edit: I also don't think Way of the Centaur is too much strong. You spend a card and an Action now to have a card and an Action in the future. If you save the action for the future, it's terminal.
You are right that it is not a huge difference and Ways are less sensitive to power differences than Kingdom cards anyway. I nonetheless think that the card is too similar to Pig. I think it would be smarter to do stuff with only Villagers or Horses; that differentiates it more from official Ways.

Flavour-wise, a Way of the Centaur giving a Villager and a Horse looks perfect.
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segura

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #111 on: December 18, 2020, 06:49:21 am »
+1

You are absolutely right, I totally missed the theme!
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scolapasta

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #112 on: December 18, 2020, 02:30:52 pm »
+1

Re: Beasts

1) it seems too similar to Hexes; though I guess it is different than a way that just said "Each other player receives the next Hex" since it can be blocked.

2) since they are not hexes; the "play, leaving it there" is awkward, since I assume you're then supposed to discard it somewhere? Or move it to the bottom of the pile? As written, I'd read this as you don't know the beast until the first time it's used, but then it's that beast for the rest of the game.
3) if someone gets to a point where they have a whole bunch of actions (or villagers) and action cards, can they just devastate other players on a turn? I wonder if some limit of once per turn would be good?
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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #113 on: December 18, 2020, 10:38:00 pm »
0

Re: Beasts

1) it seems too similar to Hexes; though I guess it is different than a way that just said "Each other player receives the next Hex" since it can be blocked.

2) since they are not hexes; the "play, leaving it there" is awkward, since I assume you're then supposed to discard it somewhere? Or move it to the bottom of the pile? As written, I'd read this as you don't know the beast until the first time it's used, but then it's that beast for the rest of the game.
3) if someone gets to a point where they have a whole bunch of actions (or villagers) and action cards, can they just devastate other players on a turn? I wonder if some limit of once per turn would be good?

Thank you Scolapasta!

I make it now more different from Hexes adding gambit05 idea of revealing the active Beast. To make it possible, I changed Medusa to give Coppers when Curses are gone.

Added a kind of Idol clause to make Beasts be played every other time. I think this way it makes hard to do a big devastation with them.

Stated their rules, so I think there's no need to they be in the cards.


Way of the Beast and Beasts set

     

                                  


Quote
  BEASTS SETUP AND RULES
- If Way of the Beast is in the game, shuffle all the Beasts face down and flip the top Beast face up.
- “Play the next Beast” is to play the top Beast without put it in play area, set it aside and flip the next Beast of the pile face up.
- When all the Beasts are set aside, restart the process.


As the set didn't have a protection, I added this:

« Last Edit: December 19, 2020, 08:21:21 pm by Carline »
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Timinou

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #114 on: December 19, 2020, 12:12:31 pm »
+1

Just to clarify, when you play a Beast, would it be considered to be "in play"?
Also, if I understand correctly, previous Action cards don't need to be played as Ways for the purposes of determining which effect gets triggered by Way of the Beast, right?

I think there needs to be some text somewhere to clarify that the Beasts stay in the supply and don't come into your deck when you play them. 

Way of the Beast should say "If you have an odd number of Actions cards...".

For Gargoyle, I would recommend switching "his" for "their".

My sense is that this is still quite powerful.

Edit: Clarified question
« Last Edit: December 19, 2020, 04:16:43 pm by Timinou »
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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #115 on: December 19, 2020, 08:47:11 pm »
0

Just to clarify, when you play a Beast, would it be considered to be "in play"?
Also, if I understand correctly, previous Action cards don't need to be played as Ways for the purposes of determining which effect gets triggered by Way of the Beast, right?

I think there needs to be some text somewhere to clarify that the Beasts stay in the supply and don't come into your deck when you play them. 

Way of the Beast should say "If you have an odd number of Actions cards...".

For Gargoyle, I would recommend switching "his" for "their".

My sense is that this is still quite powerful.

Edit: Clarified question

Thank you Timinou!

Fixed the two texts.

I put in the post above the setup and rules for Beasts:

Quote
  BEASTS SETUP AND RULES
- If Way of the Beast is in the game, shuffle all the Beasts face down and flip the top Beast face up.
- “Play the next Beast” is to play the top Beast without put it in play area, set it aside and flip the next Beast of the pile face up.
- When all the Beasts are set aside, restart the process.
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scolapasta

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #116 on: December 19, 2020, 09:01:18 pm »
+1

I guess I'm still not as convinced on Beasts being random and not very different from Hexes. (i.e. if the random aspect were important, you could have Way of the Beast say "This turn, this is also an Attack. Each other player receives the next Hex.", so they can be still be reacted to)

That said, I like the idea of the beasts, so would suggest keeping the individual beasts and just have the Way set one aside and then play the set aside one, leaving it there (so more like Way of the Mouse). In this way (pun!), you could also make the specific beasts' attacks either non-stackable or fairly weak (as you wouldn't be able to attack multiple ways (pun again!) and get rid of the even / odd clause.

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Timinou

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #117 on: December 19, 2020, 09:19:56 pm »
+1

Carline, I went through the Action cards now that they have gone through some revisions.  I didn't read through the entire thread, so apologies if this regurgitates or contradicts any feedback you already received from others.  I don't consider myself an expert player, so please keep that in mind when reviewing my comments.

Maid: I think this is quite strong for $2 cost card.  I would consider changing it to $3 or removing one of the choices. 

Mirror: I like your Throne Room variant.  I'm not sure if it should cost $2 or $3.  I think in most cases you would choose to trash Mirror, unless you are using it to trash Ruins (which makes this better than Throne Room in this scenario). 

Faithful Knight: I think there's a "." after the +1VP that doesn't need to be there.

Gravedigger:  Salvager and Graverobber had a baby!  It's beautiful, but I think the wording could be simplified a bit.  I don't think it's necessary to have "If the trashed card costs $1 or more" (you can refer to how it is worded in Salvager).

Nurse: There is a stray "it" after "card" in the third sentence.  Nurse is vulnerable to hand size attacks unlike Duration cards like Gear, Church, and Cargo Ship.  It's not necessarily a flaw, but I'm just curious if that was intentional.

Sacred Hall: This is an interesting one.  I can see this being the type of card that creates a race to buy as many as possible, because once you have enough of them, you can safely trash Provinces and Colonies to net additional VP.

Underworld Gate: I think it's a good choice to only allow you to gain cards if you trash a card that isn't already in the trash.  Otherwise, I think this would run the risk of being too centralizing, as you could potentially have enough unique cards in the trash to grab Provinces or Colonies with this.

Warriors:  It's a clever concept, but I think it may be a bit weak for $4. 

Wishing Fountain: I think this should cost $3 like Wishing Well, or you should consider tweaking it to be able to reveal more than 2 cards to find matches.  You'd have to be quite lucky to have both cards be the same; in most cases you will probably only gain 1 card to your hand.

Blessing: I feel like the net result of this is that you pay $5 now to gain a card costing up to $6 directly to your hand in the future.  The option to trash in nice and there is some synergy with Blessed Gems if play both in the same turn, but it still seems a bit weak overall.

Buffoon: I would replace the word "show" with "reveals" to be consistent with other cards.  I think giving the opponent the choice of which card to reveal sounds good on the surface, but I think more often than not, they will reveal mediocre cards and Buffoon will end up being weaker than Jester.  I feel like it would be better to have the opponent reveal the top card of the deck (I wouldn't have them discard it like with Jester). 

Circus Camp: I think it may be overpriced; it's effectively a slightly better Village.

Golden Spoils: I like how you've combined Spoils with Fool's Gold.  Shouldn't the top corners should say $? instead of $2?, since they can be worth either $2 or $4?

Immolater: I'm not sure about the cost here.  It's essentially a Chapel that gives you some coin.  It could be quite strong early in the game, but will become much weaker over the course of the game, especially in games without cursers or junkers.

Magic Library: What is the rationale behind the wording for the reaction "After another player finishes playing an Attack card...", as opposed to the more standard "When another player plays an Attack card"?

Shipmaster:  If I understand the card correctly, is this essentially like a Scheme except that it gives you one additional action this turn and +1 Card the next?

Paladin: I think this is a bit weak for $6.  It's slightly better than Destrier because of the sifting, but Destrier has a variable cost and is usually expensive at $6.

Guildmaster and Novices
I think this is a very creative and innovative mechanism!  I would love to see you explore this design space more. 
Young Saboteur: Typo ("trashes" not "trashs")

I haven't carefully reviewed the Events, Projects, and Ways (other than Way of the Beast) yet, but will try to do so when I have a chance.

Overall, I think the set looks quite good.  I haven't really paid much attention to how all the cards work together, since there are quite a lot of them.  There are some very intriguing concepts like the Secret Place mat and Hidden Pond mat. 




 
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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #118 on: December 19, 2020, 11:47:35 pm »
0


Maid: I think this is quite strong for $2 cost card.  I would consider changing it to $3 or removing one of the choices.
 



I think it's OK. It's the female version of Pawn. Both give you two vanilla bonus (different for Pawn, same for Maid). All the things Maid could do are similar or weaker than what a cost card does - 2 Cards (Moat), 2 Actions (Necropolis), 2 Buys (less than a Squire), (less than a Duchess).

Quote
Mirror: I like your Throne Room variant.  I'm not sure if it should cost $2 or $3.  I think in most cases you would choose to trash Mirror, unless you are using it to trash Ruins (which makes this better than Throne Room in this scenario). 



I think it's also good to trash actions you won't use anymore, like Moneylender. I think it's OK at .

Quote
Faithful Knight: I think there's a "." after the +1VP that doesn't need to be there.



This "." is the way I found to make Card Generator put bold font in the "+1" before Victory symbol. In previous version, I deleted the "." in Photoshop. This last time I forgot it. Fixed.

Quote
Gravedigger:  Salvager and Graverobber had a baby!  It's beautiful, but I think the wording could be simplified a bit.  I don't think it's necessary to have "If the trashed card costs $1 or more" (you can refer to how it is worded in Salvager).



I put this clause for it doesn't stay unnecessarily next turn when you trash Coppers with it.

Quote
Nurse: There is a stray "it" after "card" in the third sentence.  Nurse is vulnerable to hand size attacks unlike Duration cards like Gear, Church, and Cargo Ship.  It's not necessarily a flaw, but I'm just curious if that was intentional.



When I made Nurse I had in mind Save and Doctor. I put the reveal top 3 from Doctor and a card at end of turn like Save. Like save, it is not immune to discard attacks. It's intended. I didn't want it to stay two turns each time to do its effect. That "it" came when I copied text from Save. Fixed.

Quote
Warriors:  It's a clever concept, but I think it may be a bit weak for $4.



I initially thought to put it at , but it's stackable and could give you a lot of +buys, so I think maybe it' OK at . I don't know for sure.

Quote
Wishing Fountain: I think this should cost $3 like Wishing Well, or you should consider tweaking it to be able to reveal more than 2 cards to find matches.  You'd have to be quite lucky to have both cards be the same; in most cases you will probably only gain 1 card to your hand.



Did you see it cares about card types and not card names?

Quote
Blessing: I feel like the net result of this is that you pay $5 now to gain a card costing up to $6 directly to your hand in the future.  The option to trash in nice and there is some synergy with Blessed Gems if play both in the same turn, but it still seems a bit weak overall.



I don't think this version is weak, it's vanishing Chapel plus a kind of Feast.

Quote
Buffoon: I would replace the word "show" with "reveals" to be consistent with other cards.  I think giving the opponent the choice of which card to reveal sounds good on the surface, but I think more often than not, they will reveal mediocre cards and Buffoon will end up being weaker than Jester.  I feel like it would be better to have the opponent reveal the top card of the deck (I wouldn't have them discard it like with Jester).



Changed "show" to "reveals".

The spirit of the card is "they choose and you choose over they choice". It won't be this card without this.

If they choose a good card, you gain it. If  they choose a bad card, you do a kind of Mountebank attack. If they choose a mediocre card like Silver, it's not so bad also, you play it twice.

Quote
Circus Camp: I think it may be overpriced; it's effectively a slightly better Village.



Other people think it's almost too strong, so i think maybe it's OK.

Quote
Golden Spoils: I like how you've combined Spoils with Fool's Gold.  Shouldn't the top corners should say $? instead of $2?, since they can be worth either $2 or $4?



Yes, changed.

Quote
Immolater: I'm not sure about the cost here.  It's essentially a Chapel that gives you some coin.  It could be quite strong early in the game, but will become much weaker over the course of the game, especially in games without cursers or junkers.



I think maybe it's a card which cost is hard to evaluate. Some comments are that it should cost more, even .

Quote
Magic Library: What is the rationale behind the wording for the reaction "After another player finishes playing an Attack card...", as opposed to the more standard "When another player plays an Attack card"?



It changes the moment you do the Reaction. if you suffer a discard attack, first you would discard, after you would react and have 5 cards again.

Quote
Shipmaster:  If I understand the card correctly, is this essentially like a Scheme except that it gives you one additional action this turn and +1 Card the next?



Global effect is like play Village + Caravan + Scheme.

Quote
Paladin: I think this is a bit weak for $6.  It's slightly better than Destrier because of the sifting, but Destrier has a variable cost and is usually expensive at $6.



The comparison has to be not with Destrier, but with Laboratory, which has a fixed cost of to do the same of Destrier. Comparing to Laboratory, Paladin is OK at .

Quote
Guildmaster and Novices
I think this is a very creative and innovative mechanism!  I would love to see you explore this design space more. 
Young Saboteur: Typo ("trashes" not "trashs")

               

Thank you. Fixed text. Also removed "this is not in the Supply" from Novices. I think it's not needed, as they are permanently set aside.

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I haven't carefully reviewed the Events, Projects, and Ways (other than Way of the Beast) yet, but will try to do so when I have a chance.

I'll be very happy to see your comments.

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Overall, I think the set looks quite good.  I haven't really paid much attention to how all the cards work together, since there are quite a lot of them.  There are some very intriguing concepts like the Secret Place mat and Hidden Pond mat. 

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, TIMINOU!
« Last Edit: December 20, 2020, 12:02:58 am by Carline »
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Gubump

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #119 on: December 20, 2020, 12:01:42 am »
+1

Magic Library: What is the rationale behind the wording for the reaction "After another player finishes playing an Attack card...", as opposed to the more standard "When another player plays an Attack card"?

The wording Magic Library has makes it trigger after the Attack takes effect, whereas the standard wording would make it trigger before. Magic Library's wording makes it a better defense against e.g. Militia-class attacks.

Paladin: I think this is a bit weak for $6.  It's slightly better than Destrier because of the sifting, but Destrier has a variable cost and is usually expensive at $6.

I think you're underestimating it. It's strictly better than a Laboratory (Laboratory is just draw 2, Paladin is draw best 2 out of 3), so it has to cost at least . And best 2 out of 3 is actually quite a bit better than random 2 out of 2. Laboratory is already a high-tier . Laboratory's not a top-tier or unbalanced by any means, but if anything, Paladin is actually too good, imho.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Here's my response to Carline's most recent comments:



I think it's OK. It's the female version of Pawn. Both give you two vanilla bonus (different for Pawn, same for Maid). All the things Maid could do are similar or weaker than what a cost card does - 2 Cards (Moat), 2 Actions (Necropolis), 2 Buys (less than a Squire), (less than a Duchess).

I think Timinou is right, actually. Remember that the versatility is a BIG deal. Let's analyze the options that Pawn has:
+1 Card, +1 Action: Useless cantrip. Can't actually exist by itself, so I'll call it a effect.
+1 Card, +1 Buy: +1 Card and +1 Buy aren't all that much better combined than by themselves. And that's because the strength of +Cards and +Buys are very highly dependent on what else the card does; more so than other vanilla effects. I'd probably call this a effect; it would be reasonable for an Attack card to give out a card with this effect.
+1 Card, +: +Cards are generally better than +, so this is between +2 Cards and +. Probably a effect.
+1 Action, +1 Buy: See my comment on +1 Card, +1 Buy. Another effect.
+1 Buy, +: Strictly worse than even a terminal Candlestick Maker, and strictly worse than Herbalist, which is already a bottom-tier -cost. Probably a effect.
As you can see, most of the effects that Pawn can give are junk-level bad, and the rest are Scout-level. Maid, on the other hand, has some effects that would be reasonable to pay for without the versatility. I'd say the Maid's strictly-better-than-+2 Cards-ness is superior to Moat's, and that Maid should probably cost . Likewise, Maid's strictly-better-than-+-ness is superior to Duchess's. In fact, I'd argue that Duchess is actually worse than a pure +, as your opponents didn't have to spend a buy and then later a card slot and an action to get the self-spy effect. Giving an effect to every player is generally worse than not getting it at all for this reason.



I put this clause for it doesn't stay unnecessarily next turn when you trash Coppers with it.

It doesn't need that clause to avoid staying out unnecessarily. The official rule for Durations is that "a Duration is not discarded from play until the Clean-up phase of the last turn on which it does something," and getting + doesn't count as "doing something." Same reason Research doesn't stay in play when you trash a Copper with it (putting zero set aside cards into your hand doesn't count as "doing something").



Changed "show" to "reveals".

The spirit of the card is "they choose and you choose over they choice". It won't be this card without this.

If they choose a good card, you gain it. If  they choose a bad card, you do a kind of Mountebank attack. If they choose a mediocre card like Silver, it's not so bad also, you play it twice.

I have an edge case for you: The player to your left reveals a Duchy. There's only one Duchy left, and you know that if either you or your opponent gains it, the game ends and you lose, but you have enough to buy a Province this turn and that would make you win. So your only option is to choose to play it twice. But playing a Duchy doesn't make any sense, as Victories aren't playable. What happens?

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Warriors:  It's a clever concept, but I think it may be a bit weak for $4.



I initially thought to put it at , but it's stackable and could give you a lot of +buys, so I think maybe it' OK at . I don't know for sure.

You play Dominion very differently from how I do if you don't think that getting upwards of 4 Buys is needlessly excessive most of the time. The excessive amount of +Buys you can get usually doesn't make up for the fact that it's more expensive than Village and doesn't draw. Because of cards like Villa and Cavalry, the fact that the conversion is mandatory can even be detrimental in some instances.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2020, 12:37:58 am by Gubump »
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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #120 on: December 20, 2020, 01:50:01 am »
0


EDIT: Ninja'd. Here's my response to Carline's most recent comments:



I think it's OK. It's the female version of Pawn. Both give you two vanilla bonus (different for Pawn, same for Maid). All the things Maid could do are similar or weaker than what a cost card does - 2 Cards (Moat), 2 Actions (Necropolis), 2 Buys (less than a Squire), (less than a Duchess).

I think Timinou is right, actually. Remember that the versatility is a BIG deal. Let's analyze the options that Pawn has:
+1 Card, +1 Action: Useless cantrip. Can't actually exist by itself, so I'll call it a effect.
+1 Card, +1 Buy: +1 Card and +1 Buy aren't all that much better combined than by themselves. And that's because the strength of +Cards and +Buys are very highly dependent on what else the card does; more so than other vanilla effects. I'd probably call this a effect; it would be reasonable for an Attack card to give out a card with this effect.
+1 Card, +: +Cards are generally better than +, so this is between +2 Cards and +. Probably a effect.
+1 Action, +1 Buy: See my comment on +1 Card, +1 Buy. Another effect.
+1 Buy, +: Strictly worse than even a terminal Candlestick Maker, and strictly worse than Herbalist, which is already a bottom-tier -cost. Probably a effect.
As you can see, most of the effects that Pawn can give are junk-level bad, and the rest are Scout-level. Maid, on the other hand, has some effects that would be reasonable to pay for without the versatility. I'd say the Maid's strictly-better-than-+2 Cards-ness is superior to Moat's, and that Maid should probably cost . Likewise, Maid's strictly-better-than-+-ness is superior to Duchess's. In fact, I'd argue that Duchess is actually worse than a pure +, as your opponents didn't have to spend a buy and then later a card slot and an action to get the self-spy effect. Giving an effect to every player is generally worse than not getting it at all for this reason.

Yes, you're both right. Changed. Thematically, happy to make make more valued the Maid's job.



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I put this clause for it doesn't stay unnecessarily next turn when you trash Coppers with it.

It doesn't need that clause to avoid staying out unnecessarily. The official rule for Durations is that "a Duration is not discarded from play until the Clean-up phase of the last turn on which it does something," and getting + doesn't count as "doing something." Same reason Research doesn't stay in play when you trash a Copper with it (putting zero set aside cards into your hand doesn't count as "doing something").

Changed. so much better without that text.



Quote



Changed "show" to "reveals".

The spirit of the card is "they choose and you choose over they choice". It won't be this card without this.

If they choose a good card, you gain it. If  they choose a bad card, you do a kind of Mountebank attack. If they choose a mediocre card like Silver, it's not so bad also, you play it twice.

I have an edge case for you: The player to your left reveals a Duchy. There's only one Duchy left, and you know that if either you or your opponent gains it, the game ends and you lose, but you have enough to buy a Province this turn and that would make you win. So your only option is to choose to play it twice. But playing a Duchy doesn't make any sense, as Victories aren't playable. What happens?

In this edge case you pointed, the solution is easy: if you would buy a Province and win the game, you don't need to play the Buffoon. However, I agree that in general it's strange that there is a play option and they can reveal a non-playable card. Should I add something like "if it's a playable card..." to the option?

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Warriors:  It's a clever concept, but I think it may be a bit weak for $4.



I initially thought to put it at , but it's stackable and could give you a lot of +buys, so I think maybe it' OK at . I don't know for sure.

You play Dominion very differently from how I do if you don't think that getting upwards of 4 Buys is needlessly excessive most of the time. The excessive amount of +Buys you can get usually doesn't make up for the fact that it's more expensive than Village and doesn't draw. Because of cards like Villa and Cavalry, the fact that the conversion is mandatory can even be detrimental in some instances.

I'm very far from being any kind of reference as a player. That's why I like so much the feedbacks all of you give to me.

As I said, I was not sure about it and you both helped confirming that is better. Also made conversion non-mandatory.



THANK YOU VERY MUCH GUBUMP!
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LittleFish

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #121 on: December 20, 2020, 01:55:31 am »
+1

Quote



Changed "show" to "reveals".

The spirit of the card is "they choose and you choose over they choice". It won't be this card without this.

If they choose a good card, you gain it. If  they choose a bad card, you do a kind of Mountebank attack. If they choose a mediocre card like Silver, it's not so bad also, you play it twice.

I have an edge case for you: The player to your left reveals a Duchy. There's only one Duchy left, and you know that if either you or your opponent gains it, the game ends and you lose, but you have enough to buy a Province this turn and that would make you win. So your only option is to choose to play it twice. But playing a Duchy doesn't make any sense, as Victories aren't playable. What happens?

In this edge case you pointed, the solution is easy: if you would buy a Province and win the game, you don't need to play the Buffoon. However, I agree that in general it's strange that there is a play option and they can reveal a non-playable card. Should I add something like "if it's a playable card..." to the option?
I may be getting the rule wrong, but doesn't the game end at the end of the turn, not the moment the pile is empty, so you could both gain the duchy and then go on to buy the province?
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Gubump

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #122 on: December 20, 2020, 03:22:31 am »
+1

Quote



Changed "show" to "reveals".

The spirit of the card is "they choose and you choose over they choice". It won't be this card without this.

If they choose a good card, you gain it. If  they choose a bad card, you do a kind of Mountebank attack. If they choose a mediocre card like Silver, it's not so bad also, you play it twice.

I have an edge case for you: The player to your left reveals a Duchy. There's only one Duchy left, and you know that if either you or your opponent gains it, the game ends and you lose, but you have enough to buy a Province this turn and that would make you win. So your only option is to choose to play it twice. But playing a Duchy doesn't make any sense, as Victories aren't playable. What happens?

In this edge case you pointed, the solution is easy: if you would buy a Province and win the game, you don't need to play the Buffoon. However, I agree that in general it's strange that there is a play option and they can reveal a non-playable card. Should I add something like "if it's a playable card..." to the option?

Okay, your + token is on the Buffoon pile and you'd be short if you didn't play the Buffoon.

I may be getting the rule wrong, but doesn't the game end at the end of the turn, not the moment the pile is empty, so you could both gain the duchy and then go on to buy the province?

You're right. It's a bad example. But my point that you could be in a situation in which the only right move is to play a Victory card still stands.

EDIT: Just thought of an example where getting a Duchy and a Province would cost you the game, but just a Province wouldn't.
You have Wolf Den and Wall as Landmarks. Getting a Duchy would give you a net loss of 1 due to it being your first Duchy and you already being over 15 cards. Not getting the Duchy would therefore put you one point higher than you would be if you did get it, and would prevent a tie, and you went first so your opponent would win the tiebreaker.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2020, 03:26:24 am by Gubump »
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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #123 on: December 20, 2020, 04:09:37 pm »
0

Quote



Changed "show" to "reveals".

The spirit of the card is "they choose and you choose over they choice". It won't be this card without this.

If they choose a good card, you gain it. If  they choose a bad card, you do a kind of Mountebank attack. If they choose a mediocre card like Silver, it's not so bad also, you play it twice.

I have an edge case for you: The player to your left reveals a Duchy. There's only one Duchy left, and you know that if either you or your opponent gains it, the game ends and you lose, but you have enough to buy a Province this turn and that would make you win. So your only option is to choose to play it twice. But playing a Duchy doesn't make any sense, as Victories aren't playable. What happens?

In this edge case you pointed, the solution is easy: if you would buy a Province and win the game, you don't need to play the Buffoon. However, I agree that in general it's strange that there is a play option and they can reveal a non-playable card. Should I add something like "if it's a playable card..." to the option?

Okay, your + token is on the Buffoon pile and you'd be short if you didn't play the Buffoon.

I may be getting the rule wrong, but doesn't the game end at the end of the turn, not the moment the pile is empty, so you could both gain the duchy and then go on to buy the province?

You're right. It's a bad example. But my point that you could be in a situation in which the only right move is to play a Victory card still stands.

EDIT: Just thought of an example where getting a Duchy and a Province would cost you the game, but just a Province wouldn't.
You have Wolf Den and Wall as Landmarks. Getting a Duchy would give you a net loss of 1 due to it being your first Duchy and you already being over 15 cards. Not getting the Duchy would therefore put you one point higher than you would be if you did get it, and would prevent a tie, and you went first so your opponent would win the tiebreaker.

I think there's no need to find more examples related to endgame edge cases, at least for the purposes of Buffoon analysis. I think the point about playing a Victory is already demonstrated by you and I already said that I don't think it's a good feature in general to be able to choose the option of playing when a non-playable card is revealed. So, I ask again: do you think that add a "if it's a playable card" to the option fix this?


EDIT: Does this wording works?

« Last Edit: December 20, 2020, 05:52:59 pm by Carline »
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Gubump

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #124 on: December 20, 2020, 06:21:13 pm »
+1

Quote



Changed "show" to "reveals".

The spirit of the card is "they choose and you choose over they choice". It won't be this card without this.

If they choose a good card, you gain it. If  they choose a bad card, you do a kind of Mountebank attack. If they choose a mediocre card like Silver, it's not so bad also, you play it twice.

I have an edge case for you: The player to your left reveals a Duchy. There's only one Duchy left, and you know that if either you or your opponent gains it, the game ends and you lose, but you have enough to buy a Province this turn and that would make you win. So your only option is to choose to play it twice. But playing a Duchy doesn't make any sense, as Victories aren't playable. What happens?

In this edge case you pointed, the solution is easy: if you would buy a Province and win the game, you don't need to play the Buffoon. However, I agree that in general it's strange that there is a play option and they can reveal a non-playable card. Should I add something like "if it's a playable card..." to the option?

Okay, your + token is on the Buffoon pile and you'd be short if you didn't play the Buffoon.

I may be getting the rule wrong, but doesn't the game end at the end of the turn, not the moment the pile is empty, so you could both gain the duchy and then go on to buy the province?

You're right. It's a bad example. But my point that you could be in a situation in which the only right move is to play a Victory card still stands.

EDIT: Just thought of an example where getting a Duchy and a Province would cost you the game, but just a Province wouldn't.
You have Wolf Den and Wall as Landmarks. Getting a Duchy would give you a net loss of 1 due to it being your first Duchy and you already being over 15 cards. Not getting the Duchy would therefore put you one point higher than you would be if you did get it, and would prevent a tie, and you went first so your opponent would win the tiebreaker.

I think there's no need to find more examples related to endgame edge cases, at least for the purposes of Buffoon analysis. I think the point about playing a Victory is already demonstrated by you and I already said that I don't think it's a good feature in general to be able to choose the option of playing when a non-playable card is revealed. So, I ask again: do you think that add a "if it's a playable card" to the option fix this?


EDIT: Does this wording works?



"Playable" isn't really a defined keyword in Dominion, and there aren't very many playable cards aside from Treasures and Actions, so I'd prefer limiting it to those two types, but your new wording is probably fine. Assuming it's intended that you can choose the Throne option with non-playable cards as effectively a do-nothing option.
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