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Author Topic: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline  (Read 47790 times)

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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2020, 02:24:04 pm »
0

...does footbridge increase the cost of Coppers?

Good question. It's not intended. Maybe I have to change something on text to avoid this.
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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2020, 02:31:38 pm »
+1

...does footbridge increase the cost of Coppers?

Good question. It's not intended. Maybe I have to change something on text to avoid this.
I'm not sure it's a problem; might be more of a feature for stuff like Enhance or Farmland, and ignorable the rest of the time.
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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2020, 02:44:05 pm »
+1

...does footbridge increase the cost of Coppers?

Good question. It's not intended. Maybe I have to change something on text to avoid this.
I'm not sure it's a problem; might be more of a feature for stuff like Enhance or Farmland, and ignorable the rest of the time.

i think I've found a better version (below). it avoids this Copper thing, which could be a bit confusing, and also doesn't need the "non-Victory" restriction. Thank you!

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2020, 03:48:05 pm »
+1

Nvm, I missed the "at most 2$" cause. Idk why I misread 2 out of 3 cards there, they're not that complicated. I think both versions are fine, but the second one may be an improvement anyway.

Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2020, 03:53:06 pm »
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For the attack Ways, it just seems a little overkill to have 3 cards that do the "same", the only difference being which card is set aside / played. What if it was just one Way, and for the set aside part, it says "set aside one of x,y, or z" or give them a type and have it set aside one of those type (then maybe you can even have some other cards that interact with that type?)

Thank you very much! I'm changing them according to your suggestion.
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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2020, 04:04:00 pm »
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An initial note here is that there seems to be an imbalance of terminals, I think there are a couple too many non-terminal actions and not quite enough terminals.

Wishing Fountain seems really bad at 5 next to Laboratory, the trashing seems like it isn't enough to justify the price tag.

Calmness has a confusing wording, I'm not really sure what it does.

Burnish is too good with in the early game, particularly the opening. Maybe it should cost $2.

Season's Grace is pretty terrible next to sinister plot which is also +1 Card every other turn but a lot cheaper and more flexible.

Emissary could also use a clearer wording.

Thank you very much! I will review these cards and try to fix the issues.
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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2020, 07:01:35 pm »
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Circus Camp looks too good. It is Village+Fugitive with the discarding happening before the drawing. That downside is unlikely to compensate for the cheaper price (Fugitive is a $4.5 ) and the Village effect.



This is pretty busted. It's a support card, so it can't break the game, but it's almost Refuge + village. I think this would be more reasonable at 5$.

Yes, you're right. So I changed it to cost and added a choice. If you discard a card, you get Lost City or a kind of Acting Troupe (which also has a thematic connection with Circus Camp).

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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2020, 08:12:48 pm »
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Sacred Hall
This looks too powerful for a cantrip and with that cost.

Sacred Hall is a cantrip VP token thingy in all deck drawing engines. That happens to frequently to justify violating such a fundamental rule.

Changed it to remove the "+1 Card". This way, I think it can cost .

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2020, 08:16:18 pm »
+2



Choices don't need to be separated into rows.



+2 Cards, trash a card from hand is too strong for even if it's limited to Coppers, IMO. This should probably cost , possibly even because of the gain-a-Copper-to-hand option.



There's a typo: It should say "instead of drawing your next hand." That said, I would prefer this wording:

Quote
+7 Cards
Discard all cards on your Secret Place mat, then put 7 cards from your hand onto your Secret Place mat.

And the mat can say "During Clean-up, if there are any cards here, put them into your hand instead of drawing your next hand."



This allows infinite generation of + without contributing in any way to ending the game, which is a problem.



The first choice should be capitalized: "Trash a card from your hand or discard pile," and the choices don't need to be separated into rows. The problem with having bonuses that care about cards in the trash is that there isn't really much incentive to trash good cards (read: any cards other than Ruins, Curses, Estates, and Curses) with this. Doing so benefits your opponents just as much as you. If not more, since you don't even get the benefit right away.



I actually think this is good enough to cost , or at least definitely too strong for . Let's compare this to Walled Village (a promo card which costs ):
If you don't use both of Walled Village's actions, then you get to topdeck Walled Village so you can get another chance to use it next turn. However, "using both of Walled Village's actions" is determined by the number of cards you have in play, so Walled Village's left-over actions can still get wasted. +1 Villager, however, gives you the +1 Action on-command and cannot be wasted, and you could even naturally draw the same copy of Workers two turns in a row to get two un-wastable actions. Thus Workers is actually extremely close to strictly better than Walled Village (there are edge cases involving Throne Room variants and Ways), and should therefore cost more.



I think this should be worded "you may discard a card to choose one: +2 Cards; or +2 Actions." This both looks nicer and takes up less space.



Choices don't need to be separated into rows.



"Discard any number..." should have the first word in the sentence capitalized. Being able to trash four cards AND get + is incredibly strong, way too strong for . This may even be strong enough to cost .



I assume that "this turn" refers to the opponent's current turn, so you could react with another Magic Library if another opponent plays an Attack card? Either way, I don't think the "you can't play another Magic Library this turn" part of the reaction is necessary. Also, the proper wording (both in Dominion wording and correct grammar) would be "after another player finishes playing an Attack card, you may..." rather than "after resolve it."



Choices should be separated by semicolons, not commas. And this following comment applies to Small Village as well: Is it intentional that Throne Rooming a Marketplace/Small Village results in the bonus effect triggering both times?     



This should say "at the start of your next turn," not in. It should also be limited to non-Durations for tracking purposes (it would be confusing to play a Wharf with this).     



I assume this means to set aside all of the Treasures you have in play. If I'm correct, then it should say "all" instead of "any," and if I'm wrong, then it should say "any number of Treasures you have in play."     



Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's any case where the overpay effect is effectively different from simply "This is gained to your hand (instead of your discard pile)," which is much shorter, so you should use the latter wording.



This is too strong for just . Playing the Horse it gains immediately would make it effectively +2 Cards and +2 Actions, which is already a very strong IMO, and Amazon is strictly better than that because you don't need to play the Horse immediately AND it has an overpay effect.

Split Pile 5/5

     

Fruits is too strong to cost just , IMO. I'd say that it wouldn't work at any price if it didn't have the Villager option (too strong for but too weak for ), but the Villager option makes it strong enough to cost .

     

Blessing is not just better than Feast, but it completely outclasses it, at the same price. And like Great Hall, Feast was removed for being boring, not weak. Blessing is almost certainly strong enough to cost .

     

Emissary doesn't have any wording to ensure honesty for two reasons: It doesn't ask the player to prove they don't have enough of what they chose to pass to pass one to each opponent, and passed cards aren't public information, so it doesn't even ask the player to prove that they're passing copies of the same card. It also has the problem of not really functioning properly as an Attack card, as all Attack cards tell opponents to do something, whereas this doesn't. Another big problem it has is that it scales way too much with player count, and is too strong no matter what; with two players, it's a Woodcutter and an Ambassador at once (although it only returns one card instead of up to two), which is clearly WAAAAAYYYYY too strong for just a mere . With three players, it becomes an Ambassador that gives +1 Buy and a whopping ! I would just recommend scrapping this one, in all honesty.



I think this accelerates games way too much. A hand becomes gain a then buy a , a hand becomes gain a and buy a , etc. And unlike Donate, which is also broken, Burnish can almost always be accessed (and wouldn't do anything in the situations where it can't, anyway).     



Pythoness is a weird name for an event, considering that most Events are actually events, not people. Strange naming choice aside, this is way too strong compared to Pursue to just cost more than it. +1 Buy is nothing next to being able to have a potential 9-card hand.



This is basically just swingier, worse Donate. It's harder to afford due to needing to actually have its full cost when you buy it, and doesn't give you any choice in what to trash.

          

          

Medusa should say "Each other player may discard a Curse. If they don't, they gain a Curse." That said, what's the point of having the set aside cards instead of just having their text on their respective Ways?

                                        

County is way too strong. It can easily be worth upwards of 15 just by playing normally in most Kingdoms. It's especially broken since some of these are strictly worse than existing Landmarks.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2020, 08:18:08 pm by Gubump »
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LittleFish

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2020, 08:27:25 pm »
+1

...does footbridge increase the cost of Coppers?

Good question. It's not intended. Maybe I have to change something on text to avoid this.
I'm not sure it's a problem; might be more of a feature for stuff like Enhance or Farmland, and ignorable the rest of the time.

i think I've found a better version (below). it avoids this Copper thing, which could be a bit confusing, and also doesn't need the "non-Victory" restriction. Thank you!


Without the victory card restriction, this can be used to pretty quickly empty the estate pile. Not the worst thing, but for , it could be used as "Gain Three estates"

Overall: I haven’t counted or compared to official expansions, but I have the feeling that there are too many non-terminal cards for a set to be balanced this way; i.e. lots of cantrips, Villages, City variants, plus Night cards and Treasures.

An initial note here is that there seems to be an imbalance of terminals, I think there are a couple too many non-terminal actions and not quite enough terminals.

Yes, there's a lack of terminals, in special strong terminal draw. So I'm adding these two cards. Maybe I will also add a terminal gainer.

Feedbacks are welcome, as always.

     


Crusader could use the "... Action Cards, revealing them, for..." I think there's an official card that uses that wording, but I don't currently remember the card itself.
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Gubump

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2020, 08:51:08 pm »
+1

     

Crusader could use the "... Action Cards, revealing them, for..." I think there's an official card that uses that wording, but I don't currently remember the card itself.

Now that you've pointed that out, it has to, actually. Cards are discarded all at once, so you need to be required to reveal the Action cards in order to prove that they're all Action cards. The card you're thinking of is Shepherd, btw.
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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2020, 09:23:53 pm »
0




This is basically just swingier, worse Donate. It's harder to afford due to needing to actually have its full cost when you buy it, and doesn't give you any choice in what to trash.


Thank you very much, Gubump! Very good comments, I will take them into account to improve the cards.

By now, about Birth of Venus. Maybe it could be improved, but I think it is not swingy, you always trash from all your deck, like Donate. The idea is to trash all your Coppers and Estates at once (and eventually also Shelters, Curses and Ruins), even if sometimes you would trash some $2 cost card along with them.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2020, 09:33:55 pm by Carline »
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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2020, 09:37:03 pm »
0

...does footbridge increase the cost of Coppers?

Good question. It's not intended. Maybe I have to change something on text to avoid this.
I'm not sure it's a problem; might be more of a feature for stuff like Enhance or Farmland, and ignorable the rest of the time.

i think I've found a better version (below). it avoids this Copper thing, which could be a bit confusing, and also doesn't need the "non-Victory" restriction. Thank you!


Without the victory card restriction, this can be used to pretty quickly empty the estate pile. Not the worst thing, but for , it could be used as "Gain Three estates"

Overall: I haven’t counted or compared to official expansions, but I have the feeling that there are too many non-terminal cards for a set to be balanced this way; i.e. lots of cantrips, Villages, City variants, plus Night cards and Treasures.

An initial note here is that there seems to be an imbalance of terminals, I think there are a couple too many non-terminal actions and not quite enough terminals.

Yes, there's a lack of terminals, in special strong terminal draw. So I'm adding these two cards. Maybe I will also add a terminal gainer.

Feedbacks are welcome, as always.

     


Crusader could use the "... Action Cards, revealing them, for..." I think there's an official card that uses that wording, but I don't currently remember the card itself.

Thank you very much, LittleFish, I will see about these points.
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LittleFish

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2020, 09:57:14 pm »
+1

By now, about Birth of Venus. Maybe it could be improved, but I think it is not swingy, you always trash from all your deck, like Donate. The idea is to trash all your Coppers and Estates at once (and eventually also Shelters, Curses and Ruins), even if sometimes you would trash some $2 cost card along with them.

And as an (unneeded) edge case, Poor House
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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2020, 10:15:37 pm »
0

By now, about Birth of Venus. Maybe it could be improved, but I think it is not swingy, you always trash from all your deck, like Donate. The idea is to trash all your Coppers and Estates at once (and eventually also Shelters, Curses and Ruins), even if sometimes you would trash some $2 cost card along with them.

And as an (unneeded) edge case, Poor House

Yes, but you may manage to buy your Poor Houses only after trash your Coppers. The same for cost cards.
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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2020, 10:35:15 pm »
0




Pythoness is a weird name for an event, considering that most Events are actually events, not people. Strange naming choice aside, this is way too strong compared to Pursue to just cost more than it. +1 Buy is nothing next to being able to have a potential 9-card hand.


The "event" I had in mind was "a consult with the Pythoness", but you're right, as the name was only "Pythoness" it is not so good. I will change to "Divination". About card funcionalities and cost comparing to Pursue, I will see about. 
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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2020, 10:35:52 pm »
+1

Wanderer looks too strong for $2 because of the trashing option.

Seems like you could easily end up with tons of Horses in your deck with Horse Lady if there are any other Horse gainers. Not sure the best way to change it, or if you don't mind if people get tons of horses in the deck (and exile mat).

Secret Place looks like a recipe for analysis paralysis and too fiddly for what it does. Maybe just say "...Draw 2 cards. Set aside 2 cards from your hand and put them in your hand at the start of next turn." (in addition to the usual 5 cards.) I don't think it needs a mat.
Why do you have it discard the cards from that mat at the beginning? That pretty much cancels the effect of any Secret Place you played earlier in the turn.

I agree with Gubump about Blessing, Emissary, Tale-Teller, and Birth of Venus.

I looked at the first dozen cards so far. The rest of the ones I looked at so far look good, though a few of them seem on the uninteresting side.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2020, 10:38:13 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
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Gubump

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2020, 10:41:51 pm »
+2

By now, about Birth of Venus. Maybe it could be improved, but I think it is not swingy, you always trash from all your deck, like Donate. The idea is to trash all your Coppers and Estates at once (and eventually also Shelters, Curses and Ruins), even if sometimes you would trash some $2 cost card along with them.

I know. The reason it's swingy is because the first player to be able to afford it completely snowballs, for the same reason Donate would be too swingy if it cost instead of . In fact, it originally cost coins, but Donald X changed it because of its swinginess. In other words, I was referring to the swinginess of being able to afford it, not the swinginess of its effect. And the reason I called it a worse Donate is twofold: Donate is easier to afford due to having a debt-cost, and Birth of Venus is strictly worse than Donate due to Donate giving more choice in what you trash, including being able to have the exact same effect as BoV.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2020, 10:43:02 pm by Gubump »
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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2020, 10:48:57 pm »
+1

Secret Place looks like a recipe for analysis paralysis and too fiddly for what it does. Maybe just say "...Draw 2 cards. Set aside 2 cards from your hand and put them in your hand at the start of next turn." (in addition to the usual 5 cards.) I don't think it needs a mat.

That's literally just Gear but always needing to set aside 2.

Why do you have it discard the cards from that mat at the beginning? That pretty much cancels the effect of any Secret Place you played earlier in the turn.

I'm pretty sure that's the point.
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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2020, 10:55:16 pm »
0

Wanderer looks too strong for $2 because of the trashing option.

Seems like you could easily end up with tons of Horses in your deck with Horse Lady if there are any other Horse gainers. Not sure the best way to change it, or if you don't mind if people get tons of horses in the deck (and exile mat).

Secret Place looks like a recipe for analysis paralysis and too fiddly for what it does. Maybe just say "...Draw 2 cards. Set aside 2 cards from your hand and put them in your hand at the start of next turn." (in addition to the usual 5 cards.) I don't think it needs a mat.
Why do you have it discard the cards from that mat at the beginning? That pretty much cancels the effect of any Secret Place you played earlier in the turn.

I agree with Gubump about Blessing, Emissary, Tale-Teller, and Birth of Venus.

I looked at the first dozen cards so far. The rest of the ones I looked at so far look good, though a few of them seem on the uninteresting side.

Thank very much, LibaryAdventurer! I wiil see about these points.
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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2020, 10:56:05 pm »
0


Why do you have it discard the cards from that mat at the beginning? That pretty much cancels the effect of any Secret Place you played earlier in the turn.

I'm pretty sure that's the point.

Otherwise, you would have 14 cards on the mat.
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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #46 on: December 05, 2020, 11:02:34 pm »
0

          

          

Medusa should say "Each other player may discard a Curse. If they don't, they gain a Curse." That said, what's the point of having the set aside cards instead of just having their text on their respective Ways?

I'm an idiot. I just realized why they have set aside cards; it's so they aren't unblockable attacks.
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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2020, 11:06:44 pm »
0

By now, about Birth of Venus. Maybe it could be improved, but I think it is not swingy, you always trash from all your deck, like Donate. The idea is to trash all your Coppers and Estates at once (and eventually also Shelters, Curses and Ruins), even if sometimes you would trash some $2 cost card along with them.

I know. The reason it's swingy is because the first player to be able to afford it completely snowballs, for the same reason Donate would be too swingy if it cost instead of . In fact, it originally cost coins, but Donald X changed it because of its swinginess. In other words, I was referring to the swinginess of being able to afford it, not the swinginess of its effect. And the reason I called it a worse Donate is twofold: Donate is easier to afford due to having a debt-cost, and Birth of Venus is strictly worse than Donate due to Donate giving more choice in what you trash, including being able to have the exact same effect as BoV.

Thank you for clarifying. it would be good at $5, a cost that is easier to afford?
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Carline

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2020, 11:24:53 pm »
0




Pythoness is a weird name for an event, considering that most Events are actually events, not people. Strange naming choice aside, this is way too strong compared to Pursue to just cost more than it. +1 Buy is nothing next to being able to have a potential 9-card hand.


The "event" I had in mind was "a consult with the Pythoness", but you're right, as the name was only "Pythoness" it is not so good. I will change to "Divination". About card funcionalities and cost comparing to Pursue, I will see about.

Changed it to reveal 3 cards and cost . I hope this makes it more well balanced.

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Re: Dominion: Venus, a fan expansion by Carline
« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2020, 11:36:35 pm »
+1

By now, about Birth of Venus. Maybe it could be improved, but I think it is not swingy, you always trash from all your deck, like Donate. The idea is to trash all your Coppers and Estates at once (and eventually also Shelters, Curses and Ruins), even if sometimes you would trash some $2 cost card along with them.

I know. The reason it's swingy is because the first player to be able to afford it completely snowballs, for the same reason Donate would be too swingy if it cost instead of . In fact, it originally cost coins, but Donald X changed it because of its swinginess. In other words, I was referring to the swinginess of being able to afford it, not the swinginess of its effect. And the reason I called it a worse Donate is twofold: Donate is easier to afford due to having a debt-cost, and Birth of Venus is strictly worse than Donate due to Donate giving more choice in what you trash, including being able to have the exact same effect as BoV.

Thank you for clarifying. it would be good at $5, a cost that is easier to afford?

I would honestly just scrap it. It's too similar to Donate for my tastes.
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All of my fan card mockups are credited to Shard of Honor and his Dominion Card Image Generator (the new fork).
If you're having font issues with the generator, click this link and click on the button to request temporary access to the demo server that loads the font.
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