Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Inventor wording  (Read 5290 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

BBobb

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 164
  • My brother says thief is amazing.
  • Respect: +138
    • View Profile
Inventor wording
« on: November 09, 2020, 01:05:27 pm »
+1

This has probably already been answered somewhere, but I am going to ask anyway. Why wasn't Inventor worded as
Gain a card costing up to $3.
______________________________________________________________
While this is in play, cards cost $1 less

Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10721
    • View Profile
Re: Inventor wording
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2020, 01:21:44 pm »
+2

Two reasons. First, Donald X. is now avoiding "while this is in play" wherever possible. And unfortunately, that's everywhere! These days, if a card won't work without "while this is in play", that card probably won't get to exist. Luckily I don't think that's yet caused a card to be cut during testing, but I could be misremembering. Anyway that's why all recent effects like this have been "this turn".

Second, in the case of Inventor (and Priest), I think the published wording is probably clearer. I think your suggested wording would send most players to the rulebook, wondering whether the cost reduction applied to the gain on the card. I get that it's elegant, but elegance does not always equate to clarity.
Logged

scolapasta

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 578
  • Respect: +734
    • View Profile
Re: Inventor wording
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2020, 01:22:26 pm »
0

This has probably already been answered somewhere, but I am going to ask anyway. Why wasn't Inventor worded as
Gain a card costing up to $3.
______________________________________________________________
While this is in play, cards cost $1 less

For one thing, it can't be Throne Roomed that way (at least not the cost reduction part).
Logged
Feel free to join us at scolapasta's cards for discussion on any of my custom cards.

BBobb

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 164
  • My brother says thief is amazing.
  • Respect: +138
    • View Profile
Re: Inventor wording
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2020, 01:49:02 pm »
0

This has probably already been answered somewhere, but I am going to ask anyway. Why wasn't Inventor worded as
Gain a card costing up to $3.
______________________________________________________________
While this is in play, cards cost $1 less

For one thing, it can't be Throne Roomed that way (at least not the cost reduction part).

I know that it can't be throned this way, but in What Donald X. might do with a time machine he said "I would consider whether I like Bridge as is, in its Throne-able glory, or if I would rather phrase them the way I think such stuff in general should be phrased, like Highway etc." so I would have assumed that he would have made this non-throne-able also.
Logged

BBobb

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 164
  • My brother says thief is amazing.
  • Respect: +138
    • View Profile
Re: Inventor wording
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2020, 01:51:00 pm »
0

Two reasons. First, Donald X. is now avoiding "while this is in play" wherever possible. And unfortunately, that's everywhere! These days, if a card won't work without "while this is in play", that card probably won't get to exist. Luckily I don't think that's yet caused a card to be cut during testing, but I could be misremembering. Anyway that's why all recent effects like this have been "this turn".

Second, in the case of Inventor (and Priest), I think the published wording is probably clearer. I think your suggested wording would send most players to the rulebook, wondering whether the cost reduction applied to the gain on the card. I get that it's elegant, but elegance does not always equate to clarity.

I definitely agree with you here. I know before I found the forum and dominionstrategy that I would have checked the rules. On the other hand, I do not think that it would cause much confusion if it was put in the FAQ inside the rulebooks. Also, why is Donald X. trying to avoid "while this is in play." I find that phrase very self explanatory and not confusing
« Last Edit: November 09, 2020, 01:53:41 pm by BBobb »
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Inventor wording
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2020, 02:36:35 pm »
0

Two reasons. First, Donald X. is now avoiding "while this is in play" wherever possible. And unfortunately, that's everywhere! These days, if a card won't work without "while this is in play", that card probably won't get to exist. Luckily I don't think that's yet caused a card to be cut during testing, but I could be misremembering. Anyway that's why all recent effects like this have been "this turn".

Second, in the case of Inventor (and Priest), I think the published wording is probably clearer. I think your suggested wording would send most players to the rulebook, wondering whether the cost reduction applied to the gain on the card. I get that it's elegant, but elegance does not always equate to clarity.

I definitely agree with you here. I know before I found the forum and dominionstrategy that I would have checked the rules. On the other hand, I do not think that it would cause much confusion if it was put in the FAQ inside the rulebooks. Also, why is Donald X. trying to avoid "while this is in play." I find that phrase very self explanatory and not confusing

While I think it's very clear and not confusing as well; we have seen many questions from newer players asking about why they didn't get 2 tokens when buying a card after Throning a Goons, for example.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6357
  • Respect: +25671
    • View Profile
Re: Inventor wording
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2020, 03:00:00 pm »
+6

I know that it can't be throned this way, but in What Donald X. might do with a time machine he said "I would consider whether I like Bridge as is, in its Throne-able glory, or if I would rather phrase them the way I think such stuff in general should be phrased, like Highway etc." so I would have assumed that he would have made this non-throne-able also.
That was just a phase. First I phrased things like "this turn," then I thought "no it should be while-in-play," then I worked out that actually I preferred "this turn."
Logged

silverspawn

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5300
  • Shuffle iT Username: sty.silver
  • Respect: +3188
    • View Profile
Re: Inventor wording
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2020, 03:16:57 pm »
+1

I think it's a safe bet that the cards that have a horizontal line with in-play effects are more confusing now than they used to be because of ways. You can play travelers as way of anything (other than horse) and exchange them, and it's often really good. Ditto with Highway.

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10721
    • View Profile
Re: Inventor wording
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2020, 04:05:07 pm »
+2

Even I was surprised to learn, way back in the day when Alchemy was new, that throning an Herbalist didn’t let you topdeck two Treasures in Clean-up.
Logged

BBobb

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 164
  • My brother says thief is amazing.
  • Respect: +138
    • View Profile
Re: Inventor wording
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2020, 02:04:07 am »
0

Just wondering, why has Donald X. stopped using the "while this is in play" wording. Is it because of the new ways that emulators work (and all of the ways).
Logged

RoundTower

  • Pawn
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4
  • Respect: +10
    • View Profile
Re: Inventor wording
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2020, 12:52:59 pm »
+1

I think it's a safe bet that the cards that have a horizontal line with in-play effects are more confusing now than they used to be because of ways. You can play travelers as way of anything (other than horse) and exchange them, and it's often really good. Ditto with Highway.

I don't think travellers work with Butterfly either. Or Turtle? And you don't get the real benefit from Way of the Rat with anything but the starting travellers, though you might still want to use it with say Treasure Hunter or if you have some draw-to-X.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6357
  • Respect: +25671
    • View Profile
Re: Inventor wording
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2020, 02:12:46 pm »
+4

Just wondering, why has Donald X. stopped using the "while this is in play" wording. Is it because of the new ways that emulators work (and all of the ways).
No, I didn't know those were coming.

I switched from "this turn" to "while this is in play" because "while this is in play" has better tracking; you e.g. Procession a Highway and the card no longer in play no longer does anything, hooray. I switched back to "this turn" because it turned out people get more confused by "while this is in play."
Logged

Honkeyfresh

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 617
  • DSF lowest ratio upvotes-posts 14 yrs & counting
  • Respect: +228
    • View Profile
Re: Inventor wording
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2020, 12:04:55 pm »
0

I think it's a safe bet that the cards that have a horizontal line with in-play effects are more confusing now than they used to be because of ways. You can play travelers as way of anything (other than horse) and exchange them, and it's often really good. Ditto with Highway.

I don't think travellers work with Butterfly either. Or Turtle? And you don't get the real benefit from Way of the Rat with anything but the starting travellers, though you might still want to use it with say Treasure Hunter or if you have some draw-to-X.

You can butterfly page/peasant cards, but not other travelers as the other cards do not have a supply pile. This actually is important of you might want to flip some into VP cards near the endgame.

« Last Edit: December 04, 2020, 12:23:59 pm by Honkeyfresh »
Logged
"Rap game Julio Franco, Chuck Norris, Texas Ranger/ Ice on my fingers look like I slap-boxed a penguin." -- Riff Raff Proverbs 4:20

"Sometimes I say some things people may think are just outlandish, but I'm going to have the last laugh." -- Riff Raff  Exodus 6:66

AJD

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3292
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +4434
    • View Profile
Re: Inventor wording
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2020, 12:12:48 pm »
+1

Way of the Butterfly says "its pile", not "the supply", so you can butterfly cards that don't come from the supply. (But not cards from the Black Market deck?)
Logged

Honkeyfresh

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 617
  • DSF lowest ratio upvotes-posts 14 yrs & counting
  • Respect: +228
    • View Profile
Re: Inventor wording
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2020, 12:22:23 pm »
0

Way of the Butterfly says "its pile", not "the supply", so you can butterfly cards that don't come from the supply. (But not cards from the Black Market deck?)

I do know that you cannot butterfly the necropolis. 
Logged
"Rap game Julio Franco, Chuck Norris, Texas Ranger/ Ice on my fingers look like I slap-boxed a penguin." -- Riff Raff Proverbs 4:20

"Sometimes I say some things people may think are just outlandish, but I'm going to have the last laugh." -- Riff Raff  Exodus 6:66

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10721
    • View Profile
Re: Inventor wording
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2020, 01:11:32 pm »
0

Way of the Butterfly says "its pile", not "the supply", so you can butterfly cards that don't come from the supply. (But not cards from the Black Market deck?)

I do know that you cannot butterfly the necropolis.
Right, there is never a Necropolis pile.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Inventor wording
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2020, 02:26:30 pm »
0

Way of the Butterfly says "its pile", not "the supply", so you can butterfly cards that don't come from the supply. (But not cards from the Black Market deck?)

I do know that you cannot butterfly the necropolis.
Right, there is never a Necropolis pile.

Do the written rules ever lay out a clear and precise way to know if something has a pile or not? I know that individual things, like Shelters, mention that they don't have a pile. But I think it's a legitimate thing to wonder why unused Necropolises don't form a pile, while Spoils do form a pile (but also, when do Spoils form a pile? Is there a Spoils pile in every game of Dominion always; or only if there is a card in the game that mentions "Spoils"?)
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

AJD

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3292
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +4434
    • View Profile
Re: Inventor wording
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2020, 08:18:31 pm »
+1

Way of the Butterfly says "its pile", not "the supply", so you can butterfly cards that don't come from the supply. (But not cards from the Black Market deck?)

I do know that you cannot butterfly the necropolis.
Right, there is never a Necropolis pile.

Do the written rules ever lay out a clear and precise way to know if something has a pile or not? I know that individual things, like Shelters, mention that they don't have a pile. But I think it's a legitimate thing to wonder why unused Necropolises don't form a pile, while Spoils do form a pile (but also, when do Spoils form a pile? Is there a Spoils pile in every game of Dominion always; or only if there is a card in the game that mentions "Spoils"?)

Used to be you knew Spoils had a pile because of the instruction "gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile", but I guess that doesn't work anymore.

I'm totally down with the interpretation that the Spoils pile is technically present in any game of Dominion; you just never interact with it in most games.
Logged

mxdata

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1190
  • Respect: +1335
    • View Profile
Re: Inventor wording
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2020, 02:51:20 pm »
0

Way of the Butterfly says "its pile", not "the supply", so you can butterfly cards that don't come from the supply. (But not cards from the Black Market deck?)

I do know that you cannot butterfly the necropolis.
Right, there is never a Necropolis pile.

Do the written rules ever lay out a clear and precise way to know if something has a pile or not? I know that individual things, like Shelters, mention that they don't have a pile. But I think it's a legitimate thing to wonder why unused Necropolises don't form a pile, while Spoils do form a pile (but also, when do Spoils form a pile? Is there a Spoils pile in every game of Dominion always; or only if there is a card in the game that mentions "Spoils"?)

I would say that cards only have "a pile" if there's some way to gain them during the game, whether it's by buying them (as Supply piles) or gaining them via some other card (as non-Supply piles).  Since it's impossible ever to gain a Shelter or Heirloom (excepting things like using Treasurer to gain Haunted Mirror from the trash), there's no pile for those.  But as far as I know, there's no such explicitly defined rule
Logged
They/them

AJD

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3292
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +4434
    • View Profile
Re: Inventor wording
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2020, 05:51:13 pm »
+1

I would say that cards only have "a pile" if there's some way to gain them during the game, whether it's by buying them (as Supply piles) or gaining them via some other card (as non-Supply piles).  Since it's impossible ever to gain a Shelter or Heirloom (excepting things like using Treasurer to gain Haunted Mirror from the trash), there's no pile for those.  But as far as I know, there's no such explicitly defined rule

It's never possible to gain a Bat, but they have a pile nonetheless!
Logged

mxdata

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1190
  • Respect: +1335
    • View Profile
Re: Inventor wording
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2020, 10:25:15 pm »
0

I would say that cards only have "a pile" if there's some way to gain them during the game, whether it's by buying them (as Supply piles) or gaining them via some other card (as non-Supply piles).  Since it's impossible ever to gain a Shelter or Heirloom (excepting things like using Treasurer to gain Haunted Mirror from the trash), there's no pile for those.  But as far as I know, there's no such explicitly defined rule

It's never possible to gain a Bat, but they have a pile nonetheless!

Oh, good point.  Travelers too.  I suppose I should say "gain or exchange" then
Logged
They/them

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Inventor wording
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2020, 05:04:49 pm »
0

The non-Kingdom cards that form a pile are all marked "(This is not in the Supply)". The other non-Kingdom cards instead start in a specified location (the players' decks for Shelters and Heirlooms, in the trash for Zombies). It would probably be good if those cards were marked "(This doesn't belong to a pile)" or something.
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.056 seconds with 21 queries.