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Author Topic: Minor note about new printings  (Read 8938 times)

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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #50 on: November 02, 2020, 11:43:02 am »
+3

I don't understand why the infinite loop of trader/forum/cost reduction no longer works? The forum still goes back into the pile and you still get the buy back.

You can't Exchange once the Silver pile is empty, so now you can only do it as many times as there are Silver remaining.
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ben_king

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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #51 on: November 03, 2020, 09:43:11 am »
+3

One of the issues with the old wording on Noble Brigand is that the when-buy trigger is part of the on-play text, and the on-play text should be activated each time you play the card, while text under the line is always active.  "When you do X" phrases in the on-play text usually set up events that will be triggered in the future, such as the "when you gain a card" event in Cargo Ship.  The "When you play this" gets resolved immediately, as it does with treasures that use that wording, but there's a remaining "When you buy this" in the on-play text.  So there's a potential interpretation that says that every time you play a Noble Brigand, you're setting up a future "when you buy this" event that will be triggered if you ever bought the card.

Now ordinarily you can't buy a card you are already playing, but suppose that you've used Band of Misfits to play the top Noble Brigand in the pile multiple times this turn.  If you then buy that top Noble Brigand later in the turn, then under one possible interpretation, you might get to do the attack multiple times.  Now, are there people who are interpreting it that way?  I dont know.  Probably not, but the text was ambiguous and didn't follow the convention used in the rest of the game.

In the new version, the ambiguity comes from "What parts count as the attack?", and that's a lot easier to state in the FAQ than a clarification for what I wrote above.
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Jeebus

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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #52 on: November 03, 2020, 12:35:45 pm »
+1

One of the issues with the old wording on Noble Brigand is that the when-buy trigger is part of the on-play text, and the on-play text should be activated each time you play the card, while text under the line is always active.  "When you do X" phrases in the on-play text usually set up events that will be triggered in the future, such as the "when you gain a card" event in Cargo Ship.  The "When you play this" gets resolved immediately, as it does with treasures that use that wording, but there's a remaining "When you buy this" in the on-play text.  So there's a potential interpretation that says that every time you play a Noble Brigand, you're setting up a future "when you buy this" event that will be triggered if you ever bought the card.

Now ordinarily you can't buy a card you are already playing, but suppose that you've used Band of Misfits to play the top Noble Brigand in the pile multiple times this turn.  If you then buy that top Noble Brigand later in the turn, then under one possible interpretation, you might get to do the attack multiple times.  Now, are there people who are interpreting it that way?  I dont know.  Probably not, but the text was ambiguous and didn't follow the convention used in the rest of the game.

In the new version, the ambiguity comes from "What parts count as the attack?", and that's a lot easier to state in the FAQ than a clarification for what I wrote above.

That's not really true. The play ability is whatever follows "when you play this", and doesn't include "when you buy this":

"When you play this" (certain Treasures) - what follows is the play ability.
"When you buy this" (Mint, Farmland...) - what follows is the when-buy ability.
"When you play or buy this" - what follows is the play ability and the when-buy ability.

If you interpret the play ability to include "when you buy this", then it should also include "when you play this", making it an immediate infinite loop, and all similarly phrased Treasures too. Not exactly intuitive or plausable.

GendoIkari

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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #53 on: November 03, 2020, 05:51:51 pm »
+1

One of the issues with the old wording on Noble Brigand is that the when-buy trigger is part of the on-play text, and the on-play text should be activated each time you play the card, while text under the line is always active.  "When you do X" phrases in the on-play text usually set up events that will be triggered in the future, such as the "when you gain a card" event in Cargo Ship.  The "When you play this" gets resolved immediately, as it does with treasures that use that wording, but there's a remaining "When you buy this" in the on-play text.  So there's a potential interpretation that says that every time you play a Noble Brigand, you're setting up a future "when you buy this" event that will be triggered if you ever bought the card.

Now ordinarily you can't buy a card you are already playing, but suppose that you've used Band of Misfits to play the top Noble Brigand in the pile multiple times this turn.  If you then buy that top Noble Brigand later in the turn, then under one possible interpretation, you might get to do the attack multiple times.  Now, are there people who are interpreting it that way?  I dont know.  Probably not, but the text was ambiguous and didn't follow the convention used in the rest of the game.

In the new version, the ambiguity comes from "What parts count as the attack?", and that's a lot easier to state in the FAQ than a clarification for what I wrote above.

That's not really true. The play ability is whatever follows "when you play this", and doesn't include "when you buy this":

"When you play this" (certain Treasures) - what follows is the play ability.
"When you buy this" (Mint, Farmland...) - what follows is the when-buy ability.
"When you play or buy this" - what follows is the play ability and the when-buy ability.

If you interpret the play ability to include "when you buy this", then it should also include "when you play this", making it an immediate infinite loop, and all similarly phrased Treasures too. Not exactly intuitive or plausable.

He's talking about interpreting the card in the same way you interpret all other action cards; that when you play the card, you do everything it says. So a card that says "at the start of your next turn" sets up a future event to trigger at a specific time, and in the same way "when you play or buy this" would also set up a future event to trigger at a specific time.

It wouldn't cause an infinite loop, because the actual instruction you follow immediately would only be to set up a trigger. Like a Duration card that did nothing at all when you played it, and only had a "at the start of next turn" part. But the "future event" in this case would happen basically immediately, because you did just play the card. So you would follow the "when you play this" instructions because "when you play this" has now triggered. But in the same way, playing the card would also set up a "when you buy this" trigger... if you interpreted the card the same way that other actions are interpreted, then "when you buy this" is an instruction you only follow when you play the card.
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Jeebus

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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #54 on: November 03, 2020, 07:15:13 pm »
+2

I understood what he meant. But I see that I drew the wrong conclusion about the infinite loop. What would happen is that you activate a "when you play this" ability, and it would behave in the same way as he describes the when-buy ability behaving. (Neither say "next time", they say "when" which means "each time".) It would be triggered each time you play the card for the rest of the game. So the first time you play it, it would trigger. The next time you play it, you would activate another ability, and both would trigger, so you would do the attack twice. Next time, three times, etc. You would have to somehow track each copy though, which is impossible, making the card's instructions impossible to follow. The same would be true of the when-buy ability by the way, if you or any player buys it again (after you return it with Ambassador).

By this interpretation, all Treasures that say "when you play this" would also be impossible to play.

Sparafucile

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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #55 on: January 25, 2021, 03:29:39 pm »
+1

Is there any way for me to obtain the changed cards without re-buying these expansions?   I like keeping my dominion collection current - but it seems wasteful to rebuy the whole expansion
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #56 on: January 25, 2021, 04:41:58 pm »
0

Am I the only one wondering why trashing a yellow Curse for your opponents is considered an attack?
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Donald X.

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Re: Minor note about new printings
« Reply #57 on: January 26, 2021, 12:10:10 pm »
+1

Is there any way for me to obtain the changed cards without re-buying these expansions?   I like keeping my dominion collection current - but it seems wasteful to rebuy the whole expansion
Some more copies of the update packs are being printed. I don't have dates or anything more there. The update packs are just the new cards. The intention is not to keep them in print, as in the long run, everyone should have them who wanted them, and people buying the new editions don't need them.
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