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Author Topic: Question about Tunnel and Sleigh  (Read 1536 times)

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mxdata

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Question about Tunnel and Sleigh
« on: October 26, 2020, 03:41:51 am »
+1

This came up in a game tonight.  Margrave forced my brother to discard.  One of the cards he discarded was Tunnel, he revealed it to gain a Gold, then discarded Sleigh to top-deck said Gold

Question: Should he have ended up with 3 cards in his hand or 2?  That is, he starts with 6 cards, he discards two, one of which is Tunnel, at this point he has 4 cards in his hand, so still has to discard one.  But he reacts to the gaining with Sleigh, and so discards the Sleigh.  Now he has 3 cards in his hand.  Or, is the discarding simultaneous, so that he discards down to three, and in doing so gains a Gold, then reacts to the gain with Sleigh, ending with two cards?

If the latter, then suppose instead he'd had a Sheepdog in hand.  He discards down to 3, and in the process gains a Gold, then reacts with Sheepdog to draw two more cards, giving him four cards.  Would that be considered to be *after* the Margrave attack was finished, so that he now has four cards, or would that be considered to be during the attack, so that he'd still have to discard down to 3?
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Ingix

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Re: Question about Tunnel and Sleigh
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2020, 06:15:02 am »
0

The current ruling is that "discard down to X" effects happen in one event. So once the discard down to 3 for Margrave has been done (likely discarding 3 cards from 6 down to 3 in one event), any future hand size increases/decreases, even if happening still during Margraves execution, have no further effect on those instructions.

So with Tunnel/Gold/Sleigh, your brother should have ended up with 2 cards in hand (3 after Margrave discard, then one less by discarding Sleigh). They could have put the Gold in hand with Sleigh as well, reaching 3 cards, but again neither effect has a bearing on the Margrave discard effect any more.

With Tunnel/Gold/Sheepdog, again the additional 2 cards drawn from Sheepdog have no bearing on the already completed discard effect by Margrave.

------

Now there are discussions that this should be handled the same as "draw to X" effects, which are one at a time: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20160.0
But as far as I'm aware what I wrote above is the way it currently works.
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Donald X.

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Re: Question about Tunnel and Sleigh
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2020, 06:19:40 am »
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Yes, it's been discussed some, but so far there is no new ruling; thus, you discard all of the cards for Margrave, then resolve things that happen due to that.
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Jeebus

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Re: Question about Tunnel and Sleigh
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2020, 03:51:48 pm »
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Yes, it's been discussed some, but so far there is no new ruling; thus, you discard all of the cards for Margrave, then resolve things that happen due to that.

Discarding all cards at once would be the new ruling, since it's been "one at a time" for many years. But actually you decided to not make a new ruling in the thread that Ingix linked to. The last thing you wrote was: "Given the new information of what the rulebook actually says (which yes I could have just looked up, but who has the time), it sounds more like one at a time."
Based on that, I did not change the current (old) ruling in my rules document.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 03:52:51 pm by Jeebus »
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Donald X.

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Re: Question about Tunnel and Sleigh
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2020, 02:38:35 am »
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I looked at the rulebooks today. They sure don't seem to give an answer. I think the wording on the card suggests that you discard one at a time. I've always played that you didn't get to see both cards, which goes against that. And while I found where I ruled that it was one at a time, I've also ruled the other way (and then been corrected by people with a link).

I suspect that it's problematic if it's one at a time; there's potential for a loop that locks up the game. This isn't an issue for things like Library because nothing triggers on drawing cards (and I guess nothing ever should) (I have a trigger on shuffling, but). But things trigger on discarding, and do things that can trigger more things. I don't think there's a way to loop currently, but I've tested things that would loop there. The looping ability doesn't need to involve discarding - it can e.g. trigger on gaining Gold.

Changing the rule to "discard all at once" sounds better than avoiding cards that could potentially cause loops there, or having rules for dealing with loops.

I don't need to make a change today, but, I think probably this will change to "discard all at once."
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Jeebus

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Re: Question about Tunnel and Sleigh
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2020, 05:30:43 am »
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I looked at the rulebooks today. They sure don't seem to give an answer. I think the wording on the card suggests that you discard one at a time.

In the other threads, after a lot of discussion and everybody only looking at the card and at the rules for discarding, GendoIkari actually looked up the rulebook FAQ for Militia:
"Players with 3 or fewer cards in hand do not discard any cards. Players with more cards discard until they only have 3."
Just FYI, in case you too didn't think to check that now.

Donald X.

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Re: Question about Tunnel and Sleigh
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2020, 04:33:36 pm »
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I looked at the rulebooks today. They sure don't seem to give an answer. I think the wording on the card suggests that you discard one at a time.

In the other threads, after a lot of discussion and everybody only looking at the card and at the rules for discarding, GendoIkari actually looked up the rulebook FAQ for Militia:
"Players with 3 or fewer cards in hand do not discard any cards. Players with more cards discard until they only have 3."
Just FYI, in case you too didn't think to check that now.
No I checked it.
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