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Author Topic: Action-Treasures  (Read 300 times)

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scott_pilgrim

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Action-Treasures
« on: October 12, 2020, 03:17:54 pm »
+3

It has always sort of bothered me that Crown, and a lot of fan action-treasures, have a separate effect for the action phase and the buy phase. There's nothing wrong with that, but it just seems like it would be really elegant to have an Action-Treasure that has the exact same effect in both phases, but has some inherent advantage/disadvantage in each phase, just based on the timing of when it is played. Since Treasures have the inherent advantage of being non-terminal, that means you usually want to come up with an effect that is inherently stronger in the Action phase to compensate. Here are some ideas I came up with (disclaimer: I'm not sure about the balance on some of these):

Quote
Name: Bribe
Cost: $3
Types: Action, Treasure
+3 Villagers
(credit to NoMoreFun for the analogous idea for an action-night card that produces coffers)

Quote
Name: Trinket
Cost: $5
Types: Action, Treasure
+3 Cards
Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. Discard the revealed Treasures and put the rest back on top in any order.

Quote
Name: Quicksilver
Cost: $5
Types: Action, Treasure
+3 Cards
+3 Actions
Trash a card you have in play.

Quote
Name: Bauble
Cost: $5
Types: Action, Treasure
For the rest of your turn, when you play a card costing $5 or more, +$1.

Quote
Name: Scrying Venture
Cost: $5
Types: Action, Treasure
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal a Treasure. Put the revealed cards into your hand.

Quote
Name: Horse Trainer
Cost: $5 $4
Types: Action, Treasure
Gain 2 Horses, putting one into your hand and one on top of your deck.

The loose categories I was able to think of for ways to distinguish the action and buy phase from each other were:
  • +cards are more useful in the action phase, and in particular, you only care about drawing treasures in the buy phase
  • +actions are only useful in the action phase, villagers are more useful in the action phase but still good in any phase
  • In your action phase, you've played fewer cards (quicksilver), but you have more cards yet to play (bauble)


What other ideas can you come up with?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2020, 10:14:18 am by scott_pilgrim »
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D782802859

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Re: Action-Treasures
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2020, 03:41:17 pm »
+1

Bribe is crazy strong compared to Acting Troupe.
Trinket and Quicksilver are only useful in the action phase. Trinket would be a decent money card if it weren't for the detrimental secondary effect.
Bauble is nice.
Scrying Venture is honestly just slightly better Scrying Pool but harder to have in multiples.
Horse Trainer is extremely underpowered compared to Caravan.
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gambit05

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Re: Action-Treasures
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2020, 03:49:00 pm »
+1

What other ideas can you come up with?

Maybe something like:
Quote
Choose one: +3 Cards; or +$3
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Action-Treasures
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2020, 07:39:20 pm »
0

Bribe is crazy strong compared to Acting Troupe.
Trinket and Quicksilver are only useful in the action phase. Trinket would be a decent money card if it weren't for the detrimental secondary effect.
Bauble is nice.
Scrying Venture is honestly just slightly better Scrying Pool but harder to have in multiples.
Horse Trainer is extremely underpowered compared to Caravan.

Thanks for the feedback!

You might be right about Bribe.

I disagree about Trinket and Quicksilver. Trinket is probably better as an action, but I suspect it can work in the buy phase in a money deck too. At least the first Trinket is like a double-lab for money, and then each subsequent is more likely to draw green cards, so they get worse in multiples and as the game progresses, but on non-terminal draw I think there needs to be a pretty harsh downside. As for Quicksilver, I think you want to play them in the buy phase early on to trash Coppers, and then in the action phase later. But I could be wrong.

Could you explain the comparison between Horse Trainer and Caravan? I was thinking of it more like a Smithy variant.

What other ideas can you come up with?

Maybe something like:
Quote
Choose one: +3 Cards; or +$3

This is pretty nice, though it would have to cost at least $7 to keep from being better than Gold.
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D782802859

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Re: Action-Treasures
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2020, 08:36:05 pm »
+1

Horse Trainer is like Caravan in that gaining a Horse onto your deck is functionally very similar to Caravan's +1 card at the start of your next turn, unless you can play your other horse this turn.
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Holger

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Re: Action-Treasures
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2020, 05:06:53 am »
+1

Horse Trainer is like Caravan in that gaining a Horse onto your deck is functionally very similar to Caravan's +1 card at the start of your next turn, unless you can play your other horse this turn.
Even in the best case when you can play the one Horse immediately, Horse Trainer is essentially +2 cards now, +1 card at the beginning of next turn, which is by far worse than Wharf and only marginally better than Smithy.
And when you can't play the one horse immediately, it's essentially +1 card at the beginning of next turn and +1 card some time next shuffle, which is worse than Moat due to the massive delay.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Action-Treasures
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2020, 09:51:07 pm »
0

I understand what you're saying now. The way I had been thinking about is was like a Smithy with a plus and a minus: the plus is that it has some flexibility and can be played even when drawn dead, the minus is that you need an extra action to actually use the draw. But I now see that the buy phase option is basically a worse Caravan, since you get the draw sometime next shuffle, rather than on play. Although it isn't a duration so you can still play it every turn when drawing your deck.

Actually, it's kind of interesting that the only case where it's not a Smithy+ is when you have exactly 1 action. With 2 or more you can play it as a Smithy or a Caravan minus, and with 0 actions you can play it as a Caravan minus (whereas a Smithy would be unplayable). With 1 action you are forced to play it as the Caravan minus.

I don't know what the best fix is. I think it compares too favorably to Smithy at $4. Would +1 buy be enough to justify $5? Or what if both horses are gained to hand? I think this is what I originally had, but I thought that would be too good compared to Hunting Grounds.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Action-Treasures
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2020, 12:49:21 am »
+1

If it were me, I'd make it gain one to the top of the deck and one to the discard pile (as a normal gain), then make it cost $4. 
EDIT: Or else make it gain three horses, putting one of top of the deck at $5. ...Or give it +$1 with the two horses.
I don't like the idea of gaining a horse to hand, personally.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 12:51:39 am by LibraryAdventurer »
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mxdata

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Re: Action-Treasures
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2020, 12:28:03 am »
+3

It has always sort of bothered me that Crown, and a lot of fan action-treasures, have a separate effect for the action phase and the buy phase.

Wait, how does Crown have a different effect in Action and Buy phases?  Seems to me that it plays exactly the same, "Play a card from your hand twice", the difference in the type of cards it can play simply being a natural consequence of what types of cards *can* be played in those phases ordinarily
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silverspawn

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Re: Action-Treasures
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2020, 03:35:42 am »
+2

Crown would nonetheless be far stronger if it actually just said 'a card' without restriction.
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Holger

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Re: Action-Treasures
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2020, 06:19:43 am »
+1

I understand what you're saying now. The way I had been thinking about is was like a Smithy with a plus and a minus: the plus is that it has some flexibility and can be played even when drawn dead, the minus is that you need an extra action to actually use the draw. But I now see that the buy phase option is basically a worse Caravan, since you get the draw sometime next shuffle, rather than on play. Although it isn't a duration so you can still play it every turn when drawing your deck.

Actually, it's kind of interesting that the only case where it's not a Smithy+ is when you have exactly 1 action. With 2 or more you can play it as a Smithy or a Caravan minus, and with 0 actions you can play it as a Caravan minus (whereas a Smithy would be unplayable). With 1 action you are forced to play it as the Caravan minus.

I don't know what the best fix is. I think it compares too favorably to Smithy at $4. Would +1 buy be enough to justify $5? Or what if both horses are gained to hand? I think this is what I originally had, but I thought that would be too good compared to Hunting Grounds.

You're right that Horse Trainer is a worse Caravan in the buy phase, not a worse Moat, as it's nonterminal then.
But with 2 or more Actions left, I think it's usually worse than Smithy, not better: Since you still have an Action left after playing it, drawing a third "nonterminal" card now with Smithy is usually better than drawing it at the start of next turn with HT.
So Horse Trainer is basically a slightly weaker Smithy with a back-up option available when drawn dead. I would still try it at $4.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Action-Treasures
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2020, 10:13:55 am »
0

It has always sort of bothered me that Crown, and a lot of fan action-treasures, have a separate effect for the action phase and the buy phase.

Wait, how does Crown have a different effect in Action and Buy phases?  Seems to me that it plays exactly the same, "Play a card from your hand twice", the difference in the type of cards it can play simply being a natural consequence of what types of cards *can* be played in those phases ordinarily

I can see that perspective, but my perspective is that if it has to explicitly call out the different phases and state a different effect based on the phase, then those are two different effects. As silverspawn points out, if it was literally the same effect in both phases, then it would let you play action cards in the buy phase and treasure cards in the action phase.

You're right that Horse Trainer is a worse Caravan in the buy phase, not a worse Moat, as it's nonterminal then.
But with 2 or more Actions left, I think it's usually worse than Smithy, not better: Since you still have an Action left after playing it, drawing a third "nonterminal" card now with Smithy is usually better than drawing it at the start of next turn with HT.
So Horse Trainer is basically a slightly weaker Smithy with a back-up option available when drawn dead. I would still try it at $4.

It seems like maybe you're missing that the first Horse will draw the second? Or else I don't understand what you're saying? Regardless, I think you're right that it should cost $4. I'll edit the OP.
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Holger

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Re: Action-Treasures
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2020, 01:56:10 pm »
+1

You're right that Horse Trainer is a worse Caravan in the buy phase, not a worse Moat, as it's nonterminal then.
But with 2 or more Actions left, I think it's usually worse than Smithy, not better: Since you still have an Action left after playing it, drawing a third "nonterminal" card now with Smithy is usually better than drawing it at the start of next turn with HT.
So Horse Trainer is basically a slightly weaker Smithy with a back-up option available when drawn dead. I would still try it at $4.

It seems like maybe you're missing that the first Horse will draw the second? Or else I don't understand what you're saying? Regardless, I think you're right that it should cost $4. I'll edit the OP.
Oops, you're right, I missed that. :-[
So it's indeed slightly better than Smithy when you have 2+ Actions, due to the possibility to keep one or both Horses for later.
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