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Author Topic: Set Expansion Contest  (Read 50091 times)

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LittleFish

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #450 on: January 14, 2021, 12:23:30 am »
+1

Quote
Stablehand
Action-
+1 Action
You may discard a treasure from your hand to gain two horses.
---
When you buy this, instead of paying the cost, you may exile a horse from your hand

Is the top part too weak? Input would be appreciated.
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silverspawn

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #451 on: January 15, 2021, 08:37:48 am »
+6

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BBobb

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #452 on: January 15, 2021, 11:03:03 am »
0


I think that this is probably too weak. Engines (most of them anyway) don't want the Silver, and Terminal Draw Big Money probably doesn't need/want the Horses. Even in Terminal Draw Big Money, you often have 2 Silvers in play, in which case this is a more expensive Expedition/Experiment. If you make it cheaper, it probably is too similar to these 2 others card-shaped things, so I would buff it somehow.
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Hand - King's Court, Ruined Village, Estate, Copper, Possession
Turn -
BBobb plays King's Court
… and plays a Ruined Village.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined Village again.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined village a third time.
… … getting +1 Action.
BBobb plays a Copper.
BBobb buys a Poor House.
(BBobb draws: 2 King's Courts and 3 Possessions)
BBobb=GOD

faust

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #453 on: January 15, 2021, 11:11:23 am »
+2


I think that this is probably too weak. Engines (most of them anyway) don't want the Silver, and Terminal Draw Big Money probably doesn't need/want the Horses. Even in Terminal Draw Big Money, you often have 2 Silvers in play, in which case this is a more expensive Expedition/Experiment. If you make it cheaper, it probably is too similar to these 2 others card-shaped things, so I would buff it somehow.
This analysis is off. Yes, in a normal game you won't have more than 2 Silvers in play all that often. But we're not considering a normal game, we're considering a game that has Horse Trade in it. The opportunity cost of adding a Silver becomes significantly lower as each Silver is more or less a cantrip if you buy Horse Trade. You can build your deck with Horse Trade in mind, and I think it can be pretty strong then.
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BBobb

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #454 on: January 15, 2021, 12:13:40 pm »
0


I think that this is probably too weak. Engines (most of them anyway) don't want the Silver, and Terminal Draw Big Money probably doesn't need/want the Horses. Even in Terminal Draw Big Money, you often have 2 Silvers in play, in which case this is a more expensive Expedition/Experiment. If you make it cheaper, it probably is too similar to these 2 others card-shaped things, so I would buff it somehow.
This analysis is off. Yes, in a normal game you won't have more than 2 Silvers in play all that often. But we're not considering a normal game, we're considering a game that has Horse Trade in it. The opportunity cost of adding a Silver becomes significantly lower as each Silver is more or less a cantrip if you buy Horse Trade. You can build your deck with Horse Trade in mind, and I think it can be pretty strong then.
Yes, but if you are trying to build an engine around Horse Trade and Silvers, it just isn't going to be reliable. And if you aren't building an engine around it, I really doubt that you are going to take one of these for 3 Horses over a Gold or a Province in Big Money
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Hand - King's Court, Ruined Village, Estate, Copper, Possession
Turn -
BBobb plays King's Court
… and plays a Ruined Village.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined Village again.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined village a third time.
… … getting +1 Action.
BBobb plays a Copper.
BBobb buys a Poor House.
(BBobb draws: 2 King's Courts and 3 Possessions)
BBobb=GOD

Timinou

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #455 on: January 15, 2021, 02:19:41 pm »
0

Would it be overpowered if it let you topdeck the Horses?
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segura

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #456 on: January 15, 2021, 02:30:58 pm »
+1


I think that this is probably too weak. Engines (most of them anyway) don't want the Silver, and Terminal Draw Big Money probably doesn't need/want the Horses. Even in Terminal Draw Big Money, you often have 2 Silvers in play, in which case this is a more expensive Expedition/Experiment. If you make it cheaper, it probably is too similar to these 2 others card-shaped things, so I would buff it somehow.
This analysis is off. Yes, in a normal game you won't have more than 2 Silvers in play all that often. But we're not considering a normal game, we're considering a game that has Horse Trade in it. The opportunity cost of adding a Silver becomes significantly lower as each Silver is more or less a cantrip if you buy Horse Trade. You can build your deck with Horse Trade in mind, and I think it can be pretty strong then.
Yes, but if you are trying to build an engine around Horse Trade and Silvers, it just isn't going to be reliable. And if you aren't building an engine around it, I really doubt that you are going to take one of these for 3 Horses over a Gold or a Province in Big Money
The Event does neither cost $8 or $6 nor are Province and Gold the benchmark. Experiment and Expedition on the other hand are. That makes the analysis fairly simple, the Event is good if you have 3 or more Silvers in play. Doesn't seem horribly underpowered.
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LittleFish

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #457 on: January 15, 2021, 02:56:09 pm »
+1


I think that this is probably too weak. Engines (most of them anyway) don't want the Silver, and Terminal Draw Big Money probably doesn't need/want the Horses. Even in Terminal Draw Big Money, you often have 2 Silvers in play, in which case this is a more expensive Expedition/Experiment. If you make it cheaper, it probably is too similar to these 2 others card-shaped things, so I would buff it somehow.
This analysis is off. Yes, in a normal game you won't have more than 2 Silvers in play all that often. But we're not considering a normal game, we're considering a game that has Horse Trade in it. The opportunity cost of adding a Silver becomes significantly lower as each Silver is more or less a cantrip if you buy Horse Trade. You can build your deck with Horse Trade in mind, and I think it can be pretty strong then.
Yes, but if you are trying to build an engine around Horse Trade and Silvers, it just isn't going to be reliable. And if you aren't building an engine around it, I really doubt that you are going to take one of these for 3 Horses over a Gold or a Province in Big Money
The Event does neither cost $8 or $6 nor are Province and Gold the benchmark. Experiment and Expedition on the other hand are. That makes the analysis fairly simple, the Event is good if you have 3 or more Silvers in play. Doesn't seem horribly underpowered.
but if you have 3 silvers in play, you'd have the option to buy a gold, meaning that you could compare it to a gold
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segura

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #458 on: January 15, 2021, 04:44:01 pm »
0

It ain’t an engine without extra Buys.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #459 on: January 15, 2021, 04:55:53 pm »
+2

I say give it +buy. The nature of the Event makes it so that you basically always want to have more than to spend when you buy it; so it feels like +buy is a very natural addition. It would help strengthen it slightly and I doubt it would make it overpowered.
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silverspawn

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #460 on: January 15, 2021, 05:10:54 pm »
+3

I'm pretty confidedent the Event is on the strong side, so I'm definitely not going to buff it.

Suppose you have six silvers in your deck and two markets. If you get to play those, you can get 12 horses and another market. That allows you to draw your deck easily, and you can go from there. My worry is that the card will be the dominant strategy too often, not that it's too weak.

But I think it would be quite fun if that's the best strategy, as long as it doesn't happen all the time. You do need cantrip +buys and a way to get started.
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Timinou

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #461 on: January 15, 2021, 06:32:52 pm »
+1

I'm pretty confidedent the Event is on the strong side, so I'm definitely not going to buff it.

Suppose you have six silvers in your deck and two markets. If you get to play those, you can get 12 horses and another market. That allows you to draw your deck easily, and you can go from there. My worry is that the card will be the dominant strategy too often, not that it's too weak.

But I think it would be quite fun if that's the best strategy, as long as it doesn't happen all the time. You do need cantrip +buys and a way to get started.

Yeah, if you buy it when you have at least two Silvers in play and only have one Buy, then this is equivalent to buying Experiment at $3.  The more Silvers you have in play, the stronger Horse Trade gets (for Experiment you would also need to have extra buys for it, whereas you can get as many Horses as you have Silvers in play with just one Buy).  So overall, I think the cost seems fair.  It's a bit hard for me to gauge, because Stampede looks like good value at $5 (but also comes with a limitation which restricts you from playing it once your engine starts ticking).  On the other hand, Horse Trade is most effective later in the game when you are already able to draw a lot of Silvers.

I think whether or not this would be the dominant strategy will be situational.  If there aren't other ways to gain Silver efficiently, would you be better off buying something other than Silver?  In the scenario that you described: sure, 12 Horses sounds great if you have $14 to spend and 3 Buys.  But you would probably need to do quite a bit of work in order to find yourself in that situation, so by that point in the game, 12 Horses might be overkill and perhaps there is something else you could buy that would be better for your deck.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2021, 06:51:15 pm by Timinou »
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #462 on: January 16, 2021, 04:39:14 am »
0

24 hours left!
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Aquila

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #463 on: January 16, 2021, 07:34:53 am »
+2

Quote
Apiary - Treasure, $5 cost.
$2
When you next gain a card this turn, you may Exile a non-Victory card costing up to $5.
For the rest of the turn, cards you have a copy of in Exile cost $1 less.
The premise is cost reduction for things in Exile so they're easier to get off. That part might be a bit weak?

Where does the non-Victory card come from? I assume the Supply?
Thanks for spotting this, fixed:

Quote
Apiary - Treasure, $5 cost.
$2
When you next gain a card this turn, you may Exile a non-Victory card from the Supply.
For the rest of the turn, cards you have a copy of in Exile cost $1 less.
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Timinou

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #464 on: January 16, 2021, 11:56:05 am »
+3

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X-tra

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #465 on: January 16, 2021, 02:40:30 pm »
+2

Hope I'm not too late:



Probably not a powerful Way, but they're not meant to be anyway.
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segura

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #466 on: January 17, 2021, 04:39:47 am »
0

I like that this ties in with the variable cost theme of Menagerie. Buy Animal Fair via blowing up a $2, then blow up Animal Fair for two Captains.
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silverspawn

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #467 on: January 17, 2021, 05:32:05 am »
0

I remodel a gold into a province. Then, I play a Wayfarer with Way of the Rabbit. I gain an $5-cost. Cain I gain another 5$ cost?
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segura

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #468 on: January 17, 2021, 06:21:40 am »
+2


It is a cool design but I worry that it is a bit too nasty with handsize Attacks. Council Room + Militia takes some effort, now all your Actions are Smithies. You basically only need Miltias and Villages.
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Timinou

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #469 on: January 17, 2021, 07:11:31 am »
0


It is a cool design but I worry that it is a bit too nasty with handsize Attacks. Council Room + Militia takes some effort, now all your Actions are Smithies. You basically only need Miltias and Villages.

Yes, it does make Militia-type handsize attacks pretty much unskippable if they are in the Kingdom, but that shouldn't be an issue for most games.  I don't think I'm going to try and fix this Way to account for those situations because the fixes create new problems.  Menagerie itself doesn't have any handsize attacks. 
« Last Edit: January 17, 2021, 07:15:17 am by Timinou »
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spineflu

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #470 on: January 17, 2021, 11:34:08 am »
+2

I remodel a gold into a province. Then, I play a Wayfarer with Way of the Rabbit. I gain an $5-cost. Cain I gain another 5$ cost?

yes if resolution uses a stack
no if resolution is all globals (or even all pointers).
due to the nesting structure of turns on dominion dot games, we know that they use a stack; however dxv said "no don't use the mtg stack system" sometime ago in the interview thread, so v0v.

You can make this more explicit which way to go with Way of the Rabbit:
yes: "Trash this. Gain two cards that cost less than the price of the card when you trashed it." kinda clunky/weird for first time players but succinct and with wayfarer in the same set, easy enough to grok why it'd be the case.

no: "Trash this. Do this twice: Gain a card costing less than the card you trashed." taking after remodel. again, a little clunky, but makes explicit that you check the price of wayfarer each time.
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silverspawn

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #471 on: January 17, 2021, 12:30:25 pm »
0

I don't think that's worth it [i.e., renaming it], even the second one.
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Gubump

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #472 on: January 17, 2021, 03:02:23 pm »
+2

Stonemason + Wayfarer has the same issue.
Stonemasoning Wayfarer gets you a card costing less than Wayfarer, then a card costing less than whatever the first card you gained was. So Way of the Rabbit on a Wayfarer would, assuming no cards have been gained earlier in the turn, get you a and a . (I tested this online.)
« Last Edit: January 17, 2021, 03:06:37 pm by Gubump »
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #473 on: January 17, 2021, 04:13:46 pm »
+3

Will judge by tomorrow
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #474 on: January 18, 2021, 02:43:07 pm »
+4

MENAGERIE EXTENSION CONTEST - RESULTS

Lots of good ideas again. Sorry for the wait.

Horse Thieves (Action - Attack, $4)
+$2
Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards a Treasure card (or reveals a hand with none). Either gain a copy of a discarded card or gain a Horse onto your deck.

Early on, this is basically a Cutpurse that also gains a Horse onto your deck. As the game progresses, and the Copper density lessens (or becomes nonexistent), the gap widens: Cutpurse becomes a terminal Silver, while Horse Thieves may force the opponent to discard a Silver or Gold, possibly gaining a copy in the process (and if you don't want to, well, here is another horse!). It is pretty much a 100% superior Cutpurse by a drastic amount; Cutpurse's stackability has next to no relevance really.

And if you play that card while the opponent only has a Gold in his hand, you got a huge swing in your favor. A little too huge for a $4 costs that produces $2 on play, if you'd ask me. An effect like this is especially devastating during the greening phase.

Way of the Manatee (Way)
Set aside an Action card from your hand. At the start of your next turn, play it twice.

This is really similar to Way of the Turtle. It lacks the ability to delay an Action indefinitely, but its effect otherwise requires less actions and less copies of a certain card. For instance, suppose you want to start your next turn with 11 cards. With Turtle, it'd mandate two spare actions, and two Smithies. But with this way, it mandates one action, one Smithy variant, and one arbitrary Acion card. Although this is a nice feature, Way of the Turtle is already good enough for this.

I think that this way can leed to very confusing setups, if you chain Action cards using this way. Additionally, it interacts very strangely with cards with a "while in play" effect. Especially if you use it on Highway: are cards going to cost less outside of your turns?

Apiary (Treasure, $5)
$2
When you next gain a card this turn, you may Exile a non-Victory card from the Supply. For the rest of the turn, cards you have a copy of in Exile cost $1 less.

This looks like a fairly awkward mashup between Silver, Charm, Transport and Quarry. The exact set of cards whose price will be deducted will be fairly hard to keep track off. And in the majority of the cases, Victory cards cannot be Exiled, so the set remains unimpressive. As such, you may wonder, is this worth implementing at all? (it will get dangerously strong when Province can be Exiled, however)

The Exiling it brings is pretty powerful, as Way of the Camel does that at the expanse of an Action and not providing $2. I think it is also good that the card doesn't do this prior to the first purchase (as it would otherwise become a Talisman that works on everything), but the implementations still strikes as (somewhat) awkward.

Gangster (Action - Attack, $5)
Gain two Horses, putting one on top of your deck.
Each other player with at least 5 cards in hand discards an Action or Treasure costing at least $2 (or reveals they can't). If they discarded a card costing at least $4, they gain a Horse.

A Villain that navigates past Victory cards. An attack that is pretty tame mid game, but can be pretty infuriating early game and late game. Villain's primary claim to fame is the Coffers gaining (in the absence of Butcher), which this card doesn't have. Instead, Villain increases the hand size of next turn. This makes the card actually far more similar to Enchantress. Enchantress doesn't hit Treasures and doesn't hit each turn, but is much cheaper. I can foresee this card this card extremely infuriating early game, potentially game breaking at that, but unlike Ghost Ship, its effectiveness dips tremendously mid game.

Jockey (Action, $2)
Gain a Horse. You may play a Horse from your hand.
-
While this is in play, when you play a Horse, +1 Action.

In the majority of the games, this is going to be the only Horse gainer. And in those cases, it is sadly going to be far too weak. The chance of drawing Jockey and Horse together will be way too low to make this an even remotely viable way to get +Actions. And turning a singular Horse into an Encampment will not be terribly exciting as playing Horse+Jockey doesn't increase your handsize.

With other horse gainers, it can be a fierce source of +Actions, although it will still be awkward to get things working.

Unicorn (Action, $8*)
+4 Cards
Gain a Horse.
-
When you buy this, you may Exile an Action card other than a Unicorn from your hand to pay $1 less per $1 it costs.

This is an interesting card, even when we already have a cost-varying drawer in Wayfarer. The self synergy is pretty potent: exiling a Horse to make this cost $5 is pretty good. And unless the RNG-gods decide you dray your Horses before Unicorn, this is also really easy to accomplish. Given that the card's effect is roughly worth $7, this interaction could make the card a little to much to the strong side. (although Grand Market is fairly similar in this regard)

I also think that exiling other cheap actions to this card is going to be extremely suboptimal compared to Exiling Horses, since they are harder to gain (unless you play with Ironworks), but the value is roughly on par. Exiling Villages in particular will be really suboptimal. This can make the effect somewhat one-dimensional. Although the presence of +Buy, Actions that outlive their usefulness and Transport will be exceptions to this. FINALIST

Hawk (Action-Duration, $5)

Now or at the start of your next turn: gain a card to your hand costing up to $4.

I'm going to take your second submission, even though you forgot to alter the OP. It definitely should be a $5 cost, as it is in the same league as Falconer, Cobbler and Sculptor. It has the disadvantage of being always terminal, but the versatility definitely makes up for it. In fact, I kinda view this as the way Falconer should have been, as it is much less luck dependent. It is going to be pretty powerful, though. It will likely be initially used for its Duration effect, and later on for its current-turn effect when there are enough +Actions. In that sense it is similar to Artisan: it cannot gain $5 costs, but doesn't lower the handsize as much.

Bit unfortunate that I cannot see anything about this in the Secret History; maybe I'm not paying enough attention. It sounds like a very trivial use for the subtheme this card uses. FINALIST

Horse Catcher (Action, $3)
Choose one: +2 Cards; or gain 2 Horses; or gain a Horse to your hand
-
While this is in play, when an Action you played leaves play, you may Exile it

The top part looks fine for a $3 cost. The bottom part looks worrisome, though. If there is some way to manipulate the position of Horse Catcher in your deck, this card is going to hoard a lot of Horses very consistently. Of course, you will need +Actions to get any good use out of this card, but I am afraid it will still be too much for a $3 cost.

Quote
Stablehand (Action, $3*)
+1 Action
You may discard a treasure from your hand to gain two horses.
-
When you buy this, instead of paying the cost, you may exile a horse from your hand

Yeah, this is very weak. Maybe if there was also +1 Card in the effect, it would be somewhat passable. The below-the-line part isn't going to mean much when the card only costs $3.

Horse Trade (Event, $4)
Gain a Horse per Silver you have in play

This will be a niche card for the most part; it heavily relies on +Buy to be any good. But when this is present, it can be quite a powerhouse. Especially with Watchtower, this can be a cheaper Stampede with no limitations! You obviously need a deck that can support the Silver; it won't outperform Experiment when you only have two silvers. But Horse Trade itself helps in this, and supporting $3 or $4 Silvers is usually not that big of a deal. It will be especially nice with Seer. I think replies #460 and #461 are spot on. FINALIST

Way of the Caribou (Way)
+3 Cards
Each other player draws a card.

This looks like a nice Way. It packs many similarities with Way of the Otter. As a drawer, it is much stronger and it could potentially be your only source of draw. But to use it without +Actions can be quite risky. Much like Counsil Room, this is going to be good with handsize attacks. I like it. I am also going to be curious at the dynamic in Champion games: are people going to spam Attacks so that the opponent won't get the advantage? FINALIST

Way of the Rabit (Way)
Trash this. Gain two cheaper Action cards.

This obviously should be "Return to the supply" or it will have a bad interaction with Fortress. Disregarding that, this seems to be rather weak. It needs to have an Action that outlives its usefulness AND cheaper spammable cards to be of any use. And even then, there needs to be the opportunity cost to play this before the spammable actions run out. This will definitely have its uses, but Way of the Butterfly generally does the exchanging part better.

VERDICT
The top 4 will be:
4) Hawk
3) Horse Trade
2) Unicorn
1) Way of the Caribou

Congratulations, Timinou, for winning this contest! Also, congratulations to the other finalists and thanks for the submissions.

This also brings the next question: What will the next contest be?
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