Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... 11  All

Author Topic: Set Expansion Contest  (Read 6617 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Holger

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 489
  • Respect: +238
    • View Profile
Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #75 on: October 10, 2020, 06:54:41 am »
0



Not really sure on the wording.

Conceptually elegant, but totally busted. +2$ +2 cards is reasonable at 5$, and this is actually better than that since you'll essentially always use +2$ now and then can't draw cards dead on the next turn.

I think it would be fine at $5, as it is nerfed by being a Duration. The card's effect is clearly stronger than Merchant Ship, but probably weaker than Wharf as it lacks +Buys.
Logged

silverspawn

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4600
  • Shuffle iT Username: sty.silver
  • Respect: +2241
    • View Profile
Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #76 on: October 10, 2020, 06:59:30 am »
0



Not really sure on the wording.

Conceptually elegant, but totally busted. +2$ +2 cards is reasonable at 5$, and this is actually better than that since you'll essentially always use +2$ now and then can't draw cards dead on the next turn.

I think it would be fine at $5, as it is nerfed by being a Duration. The card's effect is clearly stronger than Merchant Ship, but probably weaker than Wharf as it lacks +Buys.

Yeah, I agree. Definitely weaker than Wharf.
Logged

gambit05

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 309
  • Respect: +192
    • View Profile
Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #77 on: October 10, 2020, 08:59:44 am »
0

My submission:

Edit: Changed name and added image.



Ferryman
$4 – Action - Duration
Quote
Trash up to 2 cards from
your hand and put that
many Coin tokens on this.

At the start of your next
turn: Remove the Coin
tokens, for +$1 each.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 03:23:58 pm by gambit05 »
Logged

LordBaphomet

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 150
  • Shuffle iT Username: LunarLynx498
  • Respect: +102
    • View Profile
Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #78 on: October 10, 2020, 10:53:30 am »
0

Needs a title
Logged
Hail Satan, hail yourself!

dpm

  • Pearl Diver
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14
  • Respect: +8
    • View Profile
Logged

Aquila

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 335
  • Respect: +389
    • View Profile
Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #80 on: October 10, 2020, 03:44:52 pm »
+1

Quote
Shipbuilder - Action Duration, $4 cost.
Choose one: gain a card onto your deck costing up to $3; or gain a card onto your deck costing up to $5.
At the start of your next turn, get the other choice.
You're gaining a cheap card and a nice $5 in whichever order you like. The top-deck gaining can influence your decisions and make planning ahead a bit more defined.
Logged

segura

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 871
  • Respect: +415
    • View Profile
Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #81 on: October 11, 2020, 07:41:32 am »
0

Not to be a broken record, but this is also totally busted. This card is about as strong as Wharf (albeit less mass-able) and costs 4$. The fact that the penalty occurs after discard attacks means that those are a reasonable counter, but absent a militia, discarding 2 cards isn't a serious penalty for something with this kind of an effect. You'll just buy this every game.
I totally disagree, without the extra Buy this would be significantly weaker than Smithy. As you pointed out, discarding at the start of your turn is like anti Duration draw.
Handsize attacks are in now way merely a „reasonable counter“, they make the card basically unplayable. After Militia hit, you can keep your Village at the start of your turn, and perhaps your village draws into your Steamboat. If it does not, the turn is lost (1 card does very little).
Logged

silverspawn

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4600
  • Shuffle iT Username: sty.silver
  • Respect: +2241
    • View Profile
Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #82 on: October 11, 2020, 08:18:08 am »
0

Handsize attacks are in now way merely a „reasonable counter“, they make the card basically unplayable. After Militia hit, you can keep your Village at the start of your turn, and perhaps your village draws into your Steamboat. If it does not, the turn is lost (1 card does very little).

I'm happy to just assume this is true. That doesn't really solve the problem. If a card is busted in 90% of cases but useless in 10%, this doesn't make the 90% any less problematic. You don't average the powerlevel, you still look at just the 90%.

And if we just assume no discard, you have a bonkers effect. The penalty of discarding 2 cards at the start of your turn seems significantly smaller than that of your opponent discarding a specific card now. In other words, even if you took away the buy, it would still be stronger than envoy, probably by quite a bit. Envoy is top tier $4s. Adding a buy to that is nuts.
Logged

segura

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 871
  • Respect: +415
    • View Profile
Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #83 on: October 11, 2020, 10:25:38 am »
0

Handsize attacks are in now way merely a „reasonable counter“, they make the card basically unplayable. After Militia hit, you can keep your Village at the start of your turn, and perhaps your village draws into your Steamboat. If it does not, the turn is lost (1 card does very little).

I'm happy to just assume this is true. That doesn't really solve the problem. If a card is busted in 90% of cases but useless in 10%, this doesn't make the 90% any less problematic. You don't average the powerlevel, you still look at just the 90%.

And if we just assume no discard, you have a bonkers effect. The penalty of discarding 2 cards at the start of your turn seems significantly smaller than that of your opponent discarding a specific card now. In other words, even if you took away the buy, it would still be stronger than envoy, probably by quite a bit. Envoy is top tier $4s. Adding a buy to that is nuts.
You seriously underestimate the two huge liabilities of the card.

First, it is a Duration and in a deck-drawing engine it is only half as strong as its non-Duration counterpart.
This is a common fallacy. I thought that Mastermind is busted when I first saw it and it took me quite some games until I understood what I should have known since Seaside has been out, that it is often just a half-KC.

Second, that's we already went over above. Discarding at the start of your next turn hurts more than discarding at the current turn. It is trivial, you discard the worst 2 out of 5 (instead the worst 2 of out of 9 as it would be on the current turn).
For the sake of argument, let us invert the order of Embassy: "Discard 3 cards. If you did, +5 Cards."
I don't know the strength of this. Is it a $3? Does it suck at any price? No idea, all I know is that I would never ever prefer this over Smithy.


Now the card could very well be too strong, who knows. But it seems pretty clear to me that without a Buy it is definitely worse than Smithy and with a Buy it is weaker than Barge.
Logged

silverspawn

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4600
  • Shuffle iT Username: sty.silver
  • Respect: +2241
    • View Profile
Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #84 on: October 11, 2020, 11:22:05 am »
0

For the sake of argument, let us invert the order of Embassy: "Discard 3 cards. If you did, +5 Cards."

Embassy is actually a great example. I would, in fact, buy this card over smithy (if it cost 4$). I would certainly buy one of them, maybe two, then switch into smithies.

But of course, this card is way weaker than Steamboat because it discards 3 cards, not 2. The thing to compare it to is "discard 2 cards, draw 5" which is way stronger than Smithy.

Does it being a duration make it worse? Barely, actually, since you only want two of them anyway (unless you have no chances to ever draw your deck).
Logged

segura

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 871
  • Respect: +415
    • View Profile
Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #85 on: October 11, 2020, 11:58:36 am »
0

Does it being a duration make it worse? Barely, actually, since you only want two of them anyway (unless you have no chances to ever draw your deck).
The notion that you only need two Smithy (variants) in a deck is utterly ludicrous, and even more so when they are Durations. In general, how many terminal drawers you need / you want / are optimal is extremly Kingdom and deck dependent.
Logged

silverspawn

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4600
  • Shuffle iT Username: sty.silver
  • Respect: +2241
    • View Profile
Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #86 on: October 11, 2020, 01:25:46 pm »
0

I'm saying you only want two steamboats because you only want to play one per turn because otherwise your next turn is dead.

You could argue that this fact by itself makes the card weaker, which is technically true, but like the 'it's bad with discard attacks' argument, it misses the point. if a card is only ever bought twice, but it's so good that it's always bought first, that's still an issue.
Logged

segura

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 871
  • Respect: +415
    • View Profile
Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #87 on: October 11, 2020, 02:08:44 pm »
0

Thanks, I totally missed that you only want to play one copy per turn.
It neatly illustrates what I already pointed out, how bad the discarding at the next turn is (relative to discarding at the first turn.

Add the collision issue (as we know from other cards, you don’t always manage to play one copy per turn) and the card becomes even weaker. Now I am fairly certain that it is fine at $4.
Logged

gambit05

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 309
  • Respect: +192
    • View Profile
Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #88 on: October 11, 2020, 02:40:49 pm »
0

I am not saying anything about the cost of Steamboat or whether it is too strong or not, but a few things should be considered here.

First of all, this is supposed to belong to Seaside. Seaside has quite a lot of cards that enable some drawing at the start of next turn: Haven (indirectly), Native Village, Warehouse (no net drawing, but a good chance to find the best card when starting with a 1 card hand), Caravan, and Wharf; and Outpost and Tactician seem also to be good. So, from that point of view in a Seaside-only or -heavy game, Militia-type attacks should be handled well more often than not. In Kingdoms where there is no good compensation for such attacks, I wouldn't buy Steamboat.
Secondly, there are  a lot of deck inspection and digging cards around in all the expansions, likely more than Militia-type attacks.

Just my 2 Cents.
Logged

silverspawn

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4600
  • Shuffle iT Username: sty.silver
  • Respect: +2241
    • View Profile
Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #89 on: October 11, 2020, 03:01:22 pm »
0

The militia thing is kind of a red herring since it's just not present in most games. But I take the point that delayed draw might mean you can play more than one Steamboat per turn. haven in particular would be a nice combo, you can set aside useless cards and then discard them to your steamboat.
Logged

X-tra

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 187
  • Respect: +208
    • View Profile
Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #90 on: October 11, 2020, 03:36:58 pm »
+2

Attempting something with the missing remodeler from Seaside:



A delayed remodeler to keep with Seaside's Duration cards spirit. Gaining to hand in a full new hand is pretty chill, not too overpowered, but like Cobbler, I believe this has to cost . I almost put a +1 Action vanilla bonus on this card.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2020, 05:17:24 pm by X-tra »
Logged

silverspawn

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4600
  • Shuffle iT Username: sty.silver
  • Respect: +2241
    • View Profile
Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #91 on: October 11, 2020, 05:07:28 pm »
0

Somehow, I had the idea that not all Seaside cards are duration cards. Idk why I thought that.



In light of the previous discussion, I imagine segura will think this is underpowered. It isn't. Anyway, I thought that discarding first is actually an underutilized mechanic.
Logged

segura

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 871
  • Respect: +415
    • View Profile
Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #92 on: October 11, 2020, 05:40:14 pm »
0

Ignoring the Fugitive-like effect for the other players (power level of a $4 and thus too much of a nerf), this is weaker than Embassy unless you discard 3 cards.
Perhaps it is sound at $4 or sound at $5 without the huge bonus for the opponents (although I doubt that this would buff it enough).

Discarding stuff before you draw is a cool idea. As long as you don’t get the power level totally wrong in the implementation.
Also, this has zero to do with Seaside.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2020, 05:44:40 pm by segura »
Logged

LittleFish

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 314
  • Respect: +120
    • View Profile
Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #93 on: October 11, 2020, 05:52:27 pm »
0

Caravan had nothing to do with seaside either. Waterfall makes the most sense in seaside if anything
Logged

Xen3k

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 73
  • Respect: +44
    • View Profile
Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #94 on: October 11, 2020, 05:56:31 pm »
0

24 Hour Notice.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2020, 05:58:34 pm by Xen3k »
Logged

NoMoreFun

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1638
  • Respect: +1295
    • View Profile
Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #95 on: October 11, 2020, 09:11:09 pm »
+1

Importer
Action/Duration - $6
At the start of your next turn, gain a card costing up to $5
---
While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may put it into your hand or onto your deck.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2020, 11:02:23 pm by NoMoreFun »
Logged

anordinaryman

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 186
  • Respect: +170
    • View Profile
Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #96 on: October 11, 2020, 09:50:00 pm »
+1




Quote
Sunken Treasure - Action - $5
+2 Cards
Choose one: Put a gold from the Supply and the top card of your deck face up on your Native Village mat; or put up to 3 cards from your Native Village Mat on top of your deck in any order.

This submission deals with three sub-themes of Seaside -- Gold Gaining, top of the deck, and mats. It may look like this combos excellently with Native Village except those cards together mean your hand size stays exactly same.
Logged

LibraryAdventurer

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1475
  • Shuffle iT Username: LibraryAdventurer
  • Respect: +1172
    • View Profile
Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #97 on: October 11, 2020, 11:43:16 pm »
+1

Quote
Sunken Treasure - Action - $5
+2 Cards
Choose one: Put a gold from the Supply and the top card of your deck face up on your Native Village mat; or put up to 3 cards from your Native Village Mat on top of your deck in any order.

This submission deals with three sub-themes of Seaside -- Gold Gaining, top of the deck, and mats. It may look like this combos excellently with Native Village except those cards together mean your hand size stays exactly same.
Neat idea, but I think it might be weak for $5. Maybe have the second option be "Take three cards from your Native Village mat, putting one in your hand, and the rest on top of your deck" ?
Also, I didn't realize Seaside had a gold-gaining subtheme.


Somehow, I had the idea that not all Seaside cards are duration cards. Idk why I thought that.
<waterfall>
In light of the previous discussion, I imagine segura will think this is underpowered. It isn't. Anyway, I thought that discarding first is actually an underutilized mechanic.
I like the card, but I really don't think it needs the drawback of helping other players.
Also, I think the set expansion contests are supposed to use at least one of the mechanical themes of the expansion, which for Seaside would be: duration, other next-turn/top-decking stuff (like Treasury/Treasure Map), usage of the Seaside mats, pirate ship tokens, embargo tokens, etc.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2020, 11:53:02 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
Logged

gambit05

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 309
  • Respect: +192
    • View Profile
Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #98 on: October 12, 2020, 02:36:58 am »
0

Somehow, I had the idea that not all Seaside cards are duration cards. Idk why I thought that.
<waterfall>
In light of the previous discussion, I imagine segura will think this is underpowered. It isn't. Anyway, I thought that discarding first is actually an underutilized mechanic.
I like the card, but I really don't think it needs the drawback of helping other players.
Also, I think the set expansion contests are supposed to use at least one of the mechanical themes of the expansion, which for Seaside would be: duration, other next-turn/top-decking stuff (like Treasury/Treasure Map), usage of the Seaside mats, pirate ship tokens, embargo tokens, etc.

When I started designing a card for this contest, my first thought was to create a non-Duration card that has some effects underrepresented in Seaside. Once I was done with it; I realised that it really didn't looked like a typical Seaside card (although it might fit well with the expansion) and rejected the idea. In contrast, I think with Waterfall there is a Seaside mechanic, but not immediately obvious. It is the discarding of the top card that other players can do; a nice counter to top-decking attacks such as Ghost Ship and Sea Hag.

Logged

LibraryAdventurer

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1475
  • Shuffle iT Username: LibraryAdventurer
  • Respect: +1172
    • View Profile
Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #99 on: October 12, 2020, 02:53:05 am »
0

Somehow, I had the idea that not all Seaside cards are duration cards. Idk why I thought that.
<waterfall>
In light of the previous discussion, I imagine segura will think this is underpowered. It isn't. Anyway, I thought that discarding first is actually an underutilized mechanic.
I like the card, but I really don't think it needs the drawback of helping other players.
Also, I think the set expansion contests are supposed to use at least one of the mechanical themes of the expansion, which for Seaside would be: duration, other next-turn/top-decking stuff (like Treasury/Treasure Map), usage of the Seaside mats, pirate ship tokens, embargo tokens, etc.

When I started designing a card for this contest, my first thought was to create a non-Duration card that has some effects underrepresented in Seaside. Once I was done with it; I realised that it really didn't looked like a typical Seaside card (although it might fit well with the expansion) and rejected the idea. In contrast, I think with Waterfall there is a Seaside mechanic, but not immediately obvious. It is the discarding of the top card that other players can do; a nice counter to top-decking attacks such as Ghost Ship and Sea Hag.
With Ghost Ship, you could keep your junk in your hand, knowing you can discard it to draw your better cards with Waterfall.
But it doesn't discard from the top of the deck, so I don't see how it counters Sea Hag more than any other draw card.

Anyway, it was just kind of a warning that Xen3k might not consider it a match for Seaside, but I'll let him be the judge of how well it fits.
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... 11  All
 

Page created in 0.084 seconds with 21 queries.