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Author Topic: Set Expansion Contest  (Read 50127 times)

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spineflu

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #325 on: December 15, 2020, 10:20:24 am »
+2


Quote
Garrison • $4@4 • Action
+5 Cards
+1 Buy
You may trash this and an Action card from your hand, for +1 Action.
-
When this leaves play, take @5. If it is your Clean-Up phase, you may then pay off @.

Capital variant, for draw. hey, does Empires need more "big draw" cards? Imbalanced cards/debt load compared to Capital because cards is more powerful than coins. Nonterminal at the cost of an action card. Especially notable in that its "take debt" clause triggers when it leaves play - no counterfeit capital combos, or mandarin, bonfire, etc. Cost is $6 because (1) no cost reduction in Empires; (2) can't cost $5 because Overlord makes it never enter play; if you work cost reduction + Overlord into the kingdom though, you'll really enjoy that "leaving it there" clause.

EDIT: cost is now $4@4 and the on-leaves-play debt is @5. Should be a better tradeoff.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2020, 10:24:35 am by spineflu »
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gambit05

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #326 on: December 15, 2020, 03:23:34 pm »
+3


My submission:

Gallery
$3 – Action

Quote

   Take up to 3 Debt to discard   
that many cards. Draw until
you have 6 cards in hand.

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segura

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #327 on: December 15, 2020, 04:08:20 pm »
0


Quote
Garrison • $6 • Action
+5 Cards
+1 Buy
You may trash this and an Action card from your hand, for +1 Action.
-
When this leaves play, take @8. If it is your Clean-Up phase, you may then pay off @.

Capital variant, for draw. hey, does Empires need more "big draw" cards? Imbalanced cards/debt load compared to Capital because cards is more powerful than coins. Nonterminal at the cost of an action card. Especially notable in that its "take debt" clause triggers when it leaves play - no counterfeit capital combos, or mandarin, bonfire, etc. Cost is $6 because (1) no cost reduction in Empires; (2) can't cost $5 because Overlord makes it never enter play; if you work cost reduction + Overlord into the kingdom though, you'll really enjoy that "leaving it there" clause.
8 Coins for 5 cards looks far too harsh. Storyteller does it 1 for 1. I doubt that the Capital style effect, and the fact that you can draw before you play your payload cards, compensates for that.
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grep

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #328 on: December 15, 2020, 04:19:01 pm »
+1

A split pile with 5 Tribunes and 5 Tribes, with the unmentioned Gathering feature:

Tribune
$3 - Action - Gathering
+1 Action
+$1
You may discard a Victory card for +1 Card.
Add 1VP to the Tribune Supply pile.
Tribe
$5 - Victory - Gathering
2VP

When you gain this, if you have any Tribunes
in play, take the VP from the Supply pile.
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silverspawn

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #329 on: December 15, 2020, 04:54:54 pm »
0

8 Coins for 5 cards looks far too harsh. Storyteller does it 1 for 1. I doubt that the Capital style effect, and the fact that you can draw before you play your payload cards, compensates for that.

What would your thoughts be about Capital if you hadn't played with it?
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Xen3k

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #330 on: December 15, 2020, 05:54:57 pm »
0



Quote
Offerings - $4
+$3
Discard 2 cards.
-
When you discard this other than during Clean-up, you may trash this.
When you trash this, +2VP.

Empire is a really difficult set for me to come up with designs, for some reason. Well, this is basically Horse Trader with an alternate reaction effect and no +buy. Best in conjunction with trash for benefits, which Empire actually has quite a few. The discard trigger for the reaction allows it to combo with itself, but relying on Offerings alone to win probably is not the best strategy. Not sure if I like it, but this is what I got for now. Feedback/criticisms would be appreciated.

I think "...you may trash this for +2VP" is sufficient.

I think the card is too similar to Horse Traders



Quote
Offerings version A - $4
+$2
Each player (including you) may discard a card to draw a card.
-
When you discard this other than during Clean-up, you may trash this for +1 Action.
If you trash this, +2VP.

Quote
Offerings version B - $4
+$2
Each player (including you) may discard a card to draw a card.
-
When you discard this other than during Clean-up, you may trash this for +1 Action and +2VP.

Ok, worked on a new version, but am trying to decide on version A on the left and Version B on the right. The main difference is that Version A works really well with both Trash for Benefit and Discard effects, but it does have an extra line and may feel like it is trying to do too much.

As for this version, it is now a terminal Silver that gives everyone the option to discard a card to draw a card. That benefit to everyone may be too beneficial to others, but I wanted to see what people thought of it. Criticism and feedback are appreciated.

Edit: I am going with version B on the right for now. Original post updated HERE.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2020, 10:56:31 pm by Xen3k »
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Holger

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #331 on: December 15, 2020, 06:05:17 pm »
+2

8 Coins for 5 cards looks far too harsh. Storyteller does it 1 for 1. I doubt that the Capital style effect, and the fact that you can draw before you play your payload cards, compensates for that.

What would your thoughts be about Capital if you hadn't played with it?

Sure, but Capital gives an extra $3 and a buy compared to the more expensive Gold, while Garrison only gives 1 more card and a buy compared to Hunting Grounds.
And Garrison is specifically worded to prevent almost all Capital combos that make it really strong.
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spineflu

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #332 on: December 15, 2020, 07:18:46 pm »
0


Quote
Garrison • $6 • Action
+5 Cards
+1 Buy
You may trash this and an Action card from your hand, for +1 Action.
-
When this leaves play, take @8. If it is your Clean-Up phase, you may then pay off @.

Capital variant, for draw. hey, does Empires need more "big draw" cards? Imbalanced cards/debt load compared to Capital because cards is more powerful than coins. Nonterminal at the cost of an action card. Especially notable in that its "take debt" clause triggers when it leaves play - no counterfeit capital combos, or mandarin, bonfire, etc. Cost is $6 because (1) no cost reduction in Empires; (2) can't cost $5 because Overlord makes it never enter play; if you work cost reduction + Overlord into the kingdom though, you'll really enjoy that "leaving it there" clause.
8 Coins for 5 cards looks far too harsh. Storyteller does it 1 for 1. I doubt that the Capital style effect, and the fact that you can draw before you play your payload cards, compensates for that.

For one, it's eight debt, not eight coins; difference being storyteller you have to pay upfront. This pricing puts it on tier with City Quarter, Overlord, etc, but every time its played. Compare  storyteller's $1:1 Card and, say, Overlord:BoM's respective costs; 8 debt is roughly $6.5 coin, by my reckoning. This is also optionally non-terminal , which hunting grounds can't do sans adventure token.

Another comparison you could make with this would be a reverse tactician - take the benefit of tactician now, skip your next turn. That's huge. Surely that costs a province-opportunity?

But, just for giggles, what would you say a fair debt price/cards is to take with this? and/or, would you wanna hop into a TTS game and test it?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2020, 07:23:21 pm by spineflu »
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segura

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #333 on: December 16, 2020, 12:49:50 am »
+1

If the average payload card in your deck is Silver, this is on average a Woodcutter.
You cannot straightforwardly compare on gain and on play costs.
The Action trashing thingy is frankly too much and does not really buff the card that enormously. Sure, it is neat in the last turn but blowing up Mining Village for a Double Peddler effect is also neat yet the card is still underwhelming.
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mandioca15

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #334 on: December 16, 2020, 04:18:30 pm »
0

Lictor (Action, $4)

+1 Card
+1 Action

You may return any number of VP tokens, for +1 Card each.
---
When you gain this, +2VP tokens.

Effectively a Storyteller variant that lets you pay VP tokens for draw, instead of coins. It comes with a couple of such tokens so that this ability is never defunct.

Many other Empires cards deal with VP tokens, so perhaps you can go mad with draws on some boards.
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BBobb

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #335 on: December 16, 2020, 10:44:27 pm »
+1

Lictor (Action, $4)

+1 Card
+1 Action

You may return any number of VP tokens, for +1 Card each.
---
When you gain this, +2VP tokens.

Effectively a Storyteller variant that lets you pay VP tokens for draw, instead of coins. It comes with a couple of such tokens so that this ability is never defunct.

Many other Empires cards deal with VP tokens, so perhaps you can go mad with draws on some boards.

Though I am not experienced enough to tell, this card seems very good, probably worthy of being a cost card. Even if it didn't have the return VP ability, it is a double Great Hall, which is probably too good for but not enough to be (though it might be enough to be ). With the ability, it is definitely a card.
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Hand - King's Court, Ruined Village, Estate, Copper, Possession
Turn -
BBobb plays King's Court
… and plays a Ruined Village.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined Village again.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined village a third time.
… … getting +1 Action.
BBobb plays a Copper.
BBobb buys a Poor House.
(BBobb draws: 2 King's Courts and 3 Possessions)
BBobb=GOD

LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #336 on: December 17, 2020, 04:02:52 am »
+1

Quote
Dragonrock
Landmark
At the end of each turn, +1 VP if you took any VP tokens or gained any Estates this turn.
-
At the end of the game, -1 VP for each Province you have.

EDIT: added the bit about gaining Estates.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2020, 01:04:58 am by LibraryAdventurer »
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gambit05

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #337 on: December 17, 2020, 04:11:26 am »
0

Quote
Dragonrock
Landmark
At the end of each turn, +1 VP if you took any VP tokens this turn.
-
At the end of the game, -1 VP for each Province you have.

Is it your intention that the top half is useless if there are no cards/events etc in the Kingdom that give VP tokens?
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #338 on: December 18, 2020, 01:04:19 am »
0

Is it your intention that the top half is useless if there are no cards/events etc in the Kingdom that give VP tokens?
Oops. Personally, I wouldn't put it in a kingdom with no VP tokens, but that won't go over well in a contest, so I'll tweak it:

Quote
Dragonrock
Landmark
At the end of each turn, +1 VP if you took any VP tokens or gained any Estates this turn.
-
At the end of the game, -1 VP for each Province you have.

Timinou

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #339 on: December 18, 2020, 01:35:14 pm »
0

I feel like Empires doesn't have enough Attack cards, so here is one that combines the Gathering mechanism with a Cutpurse-style attack:

EDIT: Revised submission:
Quote
Barbarian
+2 Cards
Add 1VP to the Barbarians Supply pile.  Each other player with 4 or more cards in hand discards a Treasure (or reveals they can't).  If no players discard any Treasures, take the VP from the pile.


Quote from: Original


Barbarian
+1 Card
+2 Actions
Add 1VP to the Barbarians Supply pile.  Each other player with 4 or more cards in hand discards a Treasure (or reveals a hand with no Treasures).  If no players discard any Treasures, trash this and take the VP from the pile.


It's a bit wordy, so I'm open to any suggestions to make it more streamlined.

I'm still thinking about the cost, and may change it to give only +1 Action.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2020, 11:30:13 am by Timinou »
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silverspawn

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #340 on: December 18, 2020, 01:36:01 pm »
0

I've designed a split pile. For once, the higher cost card is on top, the lower cost at the bottom.

         
« Last Edit: December 18, 2020, 02:33:35 pm by silverspawn »
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gambit05

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #341 on: December 18, 2020, 02:31:17 pm »
0

I feel like Empires doesn't have enough Attack cards, so here is one that combines the Gathering mechanism with a Cutpurse-style attack:



Quote
Barbarian
+1 Card
+2 Actions
Add 1VP to the Barbarians Supply pile.  Each other player with 4 or more cards in hand discards a Treasure (or reveals a hand with no Treasures).  If no players discard any Treasures, trash this and take the VP from the pile.


It's a bit wordy, so I'm open to any suggestions to make it more streamlined.

I'm still thinking about the cost, and may change it to give only +1 Action.

Just a tiny bit shorter: "...discards a Treasure (or reveals they can't).  If no player discards a Treasures, ..."

What happens when all other player have less than 4 cards in hand and/or reveal a Moat? No Treasure would be discarded this way. Would this trigger the last part?

Edit: Treasure not Treasures.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2020, 03:01:04 pm by gambit05 »
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Timinou

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #342 on: December 18, 2020, 02:57:48 pm »
0

Just a tiny bit shorter: "...discards a Treasure (or reveals they can't).  If no player discards a Treasures, ..."

Thanks!

Quote
What happens when all other player have less than 4 cards in hand and/or reveal a Moat? No Treasure would be discarded this way. Would this trigger the last part?

Yes.  The idea is that in order to increase your chances of triggering the last part, you would probably want to stack Barbarians.  If there aren't enough VP in the pile for your liking, you could always choose not to play additional Barbarians.
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gambit05

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #343 on: December 18, 2020, 03:06:27 pm »
+1

Just a tiny bit shorter: "...discards a Treasure (or reveals they can't).  If no player discards a Treasures, ..."

Thanks!

Quote
What happens when all other player have less than 4 cards in hand and/or reveal a Moat? No Treasure would be discarded this way. Would this trigger the last part?

Yes.  The idea is that in order to increase your chances of triggering the last part, you would probably want to stack Barbarians.  If there aren't enough VP in the pile for your liking, you could always choose not to play additional Barbarians.

So, that would mean that a single Moat in a 2-player game can cause trashing of the Barbarians for just 1VP.
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Timinou

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #344 on: December 18, 2020, 03:52:07 pm »
0

Just a tiny bit shorter: "...discards a Treasure (or reveals they can't).  If no player discards a Treasures, ..."

Thanks!

Quote
What happens when all other player have less than 4 cards in hand and/or reveal a Moat? No Treasure would be discarded this way. Would this trigger the last part?

Yes.  The idea is that in order to increase your chances of triggering the last part, you would probably want to stack Barbarians.  If there aren't enough VP in the pile for your liking, you could always choose not to play additional Barbarians.

So, that would mean that a single Moat in a 2-player game can cause trashing of the Barbarians for just 1VP.

Yes.  I think almost all 5-cost Attack cards still provide some benefit even if it gets blocked by a Moat; in this case you get an extra draw, two Actions and a VP, but at the expense of trashing the card.  I'm still thinking about the top half of the card, because at the same time I don't want it to be too powerful.

Does the presence of a Moat in the Kingdom make Barbarians less attractive?  Certainly, but I think the same could be said for most Attack cards.   
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gambit05

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #345 on: December 18, 2020, 04:53:17 pm »
0

Just a tiny bit shorter: "...discards a Treasure (or reveals they can't).  If no player discards a Treasures, ..."

Thanks!

Quote
What happens when all other player have less than 4 cards in hand and/or reveal a Moat? No Treasure would be discarded this way. Would this trigger the last part?

Yes.  The idea is that in order to increase your chances of triggering the last part, you would probably want to stack Barbarians.  If there aren't enough VP in the pile for your liking, you could always choose not to play additional Barbarians.

So, that would mean that a single Moat in a 2-player game can cause trashing of the Barbarians for just 1VP.

Yes.  I think almost all 5-cost Attack cards still provide some benefit even if it gets blocked by a Moat; in this case you get an extra draw, two Actions and a VP, but at the expense of trashing the card.  I'm still thinking about the top half of the card, because at the same time I don't want it to be too powerful.

Does the presence of a Moat in the Kingdom make Barbarians less attractive?  Certainly, but I think the same could be said for most Attack cards.   

Moat is a mediocre card at best and most Attack cards do not fear Moat; they go for a hit and miss and in the long run they usually hit. With Barbarian, it is more about hit or being trashed. Moat is basically becoming better than a $2 cost Knight with self immunity. I think, a potential one-shot is okay, but it is not very attractive when it costs $5 since it cannot be easily replaced.
Anyway, Moat was just an illustrative example. There are quite some other possibilities to avoid the Treasure discarding (some other Reactions, other “defense” cards, hand size is already down, no Treasures in deck anymore).
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segura

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #346 on: December 18, 2020, 06:17:17 pm »
0

Barbarian is one of those funky cards that is too strong and too weak at the same time. It violates several design principles and consequently and unsurprisingly doesn’t work.
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Timinou

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #347 on: December 18, 2020, 06:51:07 pm »
0

Barbarian is one of those funky cards that is too strong and too weak at the same time. It violates several design principles and consequently and unsurprisingly doesn’t work.

What design principles would those be? 
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segura

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #348 on: December 19, 2020, 01:53:14 am »
0

Don't do a non-terminal Attack for a good reason, don't do a cantrip Attack for a very good reason (Urchin is weak, Familiar is hard to get).
Don't do a Reaction that deflect an Attack or attacks back. Here we have this implemented into the very Attack itself, i.e. Moat or a Treasure-less deck can trash the Attack.

Your notion was probably that these effects cancel each other out. But it doesn't work like that.
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Timinou

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Re: Set Expansion Contest
« Reply #349 on: December 19, 2020, 11:31:22 am »
+3

Don't do a non-terminal Attack for a good reason, don't do a cantrip Attack for a very good reason (Urchin is weak, Familiar is hard to get).
Don't do a Reaction that deflect an Attack or attacks back. Here we have this implemented into the very Attack itself, i.e. Moat or a Treasure-less deck can trash the Attack.

Your notion was probably that these effects cancel each other out. But it doesn't work like that.

Thank you for elaborating!  :)
In this case, the reason for making this a cantrip attack was to make it easier to stack them (similar to Urchin).
The intention behind the self-trashing to gain the VP was not specifically to counter Reactions like Moat, but to ensure that the Barbarian hordes don't dominate the game. 

It seems like you and gambit don't like the fact that Barbarians can get trashed by something like Moat.  If I revise Barbarian so that it isn't a cantrip, the trashing isn't necessary.  It loses some of the thematic flavor I was going for, but it addresses some of the issues you both have raised. 

I've updated the original post with a new version of Barbarians:



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