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Author Topic: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Game Over! Skum Wins!  (Read 9243 times)

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WestCoastDidds

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 5
« Reply #950 on: October 26, 2020, 10:08:20 am »

I'd like to hear from each of our Doctors who they think the second scum is, and why.

I think its Galz/chairs. That huge wall of text with his rereads, once I looked more carefully at it, was a super biased view cloaked in objectivity.  It looks objective because he read everyone and had a ton of quotes, etc.  But when I pulled my part out, all of the arguments that he was making about me were exceedingly specious. He would characterize me as trying "really, really hard" at doing something that was just a point of conversation, etc.  I already explained all that in my super long wall post of his wall post.  Space did the same thing a couple of posts later. 

For me, that wall post is the scummiest thing that has happened in the game, by far.  Additionally, he has been unwavering in his chairs support today. He posted that he was grabbing his computer to read, but then nothing. He hasn't even entertained for a moment that chairs could be scum, and with the game state where it currently is, that is super irresponsible.

I don't think that Space is the second scum mostly because she took the time to really dig through that post, too, and came to similarly scummy conclusions about the same things I do, but she started doing that before she knew that I was doing the same or had seen my points. (The posts appeared too closely together for Space to have started theirs after they had read mine.)

I don't think that you (faust) are the second scum because your attempts to defend me would be unnecessary and counter productive if your were chairs' partner. 
I think the situation where all 4 townspeople have to vote together is really interesting. No way that scum busses here. So the fact that you are currently voting for chairs further clears you.

There are 6 people left...if I get exiled that leaves 3 v 2. After a successful Robz NK, scum wins.  So, exiling me is for all the marbles as far as scum is concerned.  They are all in, and the person who has done the most work to get me exiled is Galz.

PPE: faust vote

Vote: Galzy


SpaceAnemone

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 5
« Reply #951 on: October 26, 2020, 10:48:06 am »

I guess I should consider that both Faust and space canít be misleading me here...

I might actually be okay to exile Galzria.

Huh, I'm struggling here! My preffered exile is still Chairs, but we're three days out from deadline, so there's no need to rush into anything. We can even wait a couple more days for Galz to come back and say stuff.

I'm seriously asking you to please go and form an opinion on Galz's wall post so that you can join in a discussion of it on here. It's all very nice that Didds and faust apparently agree with me, but with Didds-faust being the main feasible alternative to Galz-Chairs, I don't trust either of them to find any flaws in my thinking. I would like you to take along all your pre-existing scum!Didds bias, see whether you agree with Galz, and if so, to tell me I'm wrong :-)
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Town games: M84(L), M85(W), M86(L), M87(W), M88(L), M90(L), M92(W), M94(L), M97(L), M99(W), M100(L), M104(W), M107(W), M110(L), M112(L), RMM37(L), RMM40(D), RMM41(L), RMM43(L), RMM47(W), ZM23(W).
Scum games: M89(D), M108(L), NM8(W&MVP), NM10(L)   Mod: NM9, RMM38, RMM42.   Pronouns: they/them

Robz888

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 5
« Reply #952 on: October 26, 2020, 12:05:43 pm »

Sorry Iíve been travelingóvisiting mcmc!óthe past few days, will have more time for this tomorrow.
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Galzria

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 5
« Reply #953 on: October 26, 2020, 06:38:33 pm »

Okay, I thought about it some more and I think this is the right call. We have to get it right today or we lose, yeah?

Perhaps more importantly, scum already know that I am the doc because I was blocked N3 when I doctored EFHW (itís been Rob all the other nights). So, we should have as much information as they do and it should improve our VCA (although I havenít been on any of the mixiles so not as helpful as it could be.)

Reread and itís obvious, especially since I pretty much as much in the conversation with faust about why I was trying to avoid being nightkilled.

If scum already knew you were the Doctor, scum wouldíve killed you last night instead of risking you Doctoring their intended kill.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

Galzria

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 5
« Reply #954 on: October 26, 2020, 06:43:34 pm »

vote: Didds

Havenít done this yet. Meant to.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

SpaceAnemone

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 5
« Reply #955 on: October 26, 2020, 07:38:25 pm »

Okay, I thought about it some more and I think this is the right call. We have to get it right today or we lose, yeah?

Perhaps more importantly, scum already know that I am the doc because I was blocked N3 when I doctored EFHW (itís been Rob all the other nights). So, we should have as much information as they do and it should improve our VCA (although I havenít been on any of the mixiles so not as helpful as it could be.)

Reread and itís obvious, especially since I pretty much as much in the conversation with faust about why I was trying to avoid being nightkilled.

If scum already knew you were the Doctor, scum wouldíve killed you last night instead of risking you Doctoring their intended kill.

I think we only spotted that both the town and possible scum RBs had to be dead after the doctor claims, though, right? So it's kind of townie of Didds just to assume she was RBd, whereas a scum imposter who's discussed how to make a kill on EFHW go through would be more sure of whether scum has a strongman or a rolestopper to make that happen. So I think scum!Didds would have had to be pretty devious to deliberately make that statement, whereas for town!Didds it's just a simple error because RB is the more common role.

Of course, if there's no doctoring going on at all, and Didds and Chairs are both scum, then there's no reason for those conversations to have taken place in the scum QT... but then we're back to a situation where it's also perfectly sensible to exile Chairs first.
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Town games: M84(L), M85(W), M86(L), M87(W), M88(L), M90(L), M92(W), M94(L), M97(L), M99(W), M100(L), M104(W), M107(W), M110(L), M112(L), RMM37(L), RMM40(D), RMM41(L), RMM43(L), RMM47(W), ZM23(W).
Scum games: M89(D), M108(L), NM8(W&MVP), NM10(L)   Mod: NM9, RMM38, RMM42.   Pronouns: they/them

Swowl

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 5
« Reply #956 on: October 26, 2020, 11:07:47 pm »

Vote Count 5.4:

WCD (2): chairs, Galz
Galzria (2): faust, WCD

Not Voting (2): Space, Robz,

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Day 5 starts now and ends October 29th at 7:40pm Forum Time.
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real good. Thatís how
Town:  12 wins, 9 losses (1 MVP)
Skum: 6 wins, 5 losses (1 MVP)
3-Party: 2 wins, 1 loss

faust

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 5
« Reply #957 on: October 27, 2020, 06:25:55 am »

I feel like I should reread Space to quell my paranoia that they might be playing us all.

Early on Space joins the Glooble wagon with Robz and ADK. chairs joins a bit later. Well this is all early and small wagons, I think partners might join the same wagon at this stage.

For a while, the Joseph wagon has Eevee and chairs on it, then chairs leaves and shortly after Space joins that wagon. This doesn't seem to be partner interaction, even if you would want to have the whole scumteam on a wagon you probably wouldn't do this hop-off, hop-on interaction. Space also had the option to stay on Glooble to potentially get the exile through instead, and didn't.

So I moved to Joseph. When am I usually not willing to vote for Joseph?
I don't particularly like the self-awareness here, it reads like Space got on Joseph because they knew they'd get away with it.

In this post, Space build a case on chairs while being sort of hedgy about Didds. This furthers my thinking that Space would be Didds' partner rather than chairs'.

Yeah, we left MiX alive and misfiring to great effect there
This also kind of read like subtly implying that you're not the scum here without being really open about it. Maybe it's just my paranoia talking.

Space is poking little needles in my reasoning for a while there. I don't think that did a whole lot, but it helps Space to keep some distance from the Glooble wagon. Then Space tries to push through a chairs exile over Glooble, which is at least some further evidence that they're not in cahoots.

Does anyone think it's at all likely that neither faust nor ADK is scum here?
Certainly don't like that D3 opening. Trying to limit the pool to 2 townies.

Not much more is happening apart from Space helping to push through the ADK exile. Then today follows with a lots of analysis and stuff. It's curious that this didn't come Day 4, you know, after the death of a scum.

I can't say I'm exactly assuaged after this reread, but at least I don't think it's Space/chairs.

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faust

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 5
« Reply #958 on: October 27, 2020, 06:26:46 am »

unvote
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faust

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 5
« Reply #959 on: October 27, 2020, 06:30:10 am »

I don't think Didds would be pushing Galzria here so hard if they were partners. Which in the end leaves me with the team being either Space/Didds or Galz/chairs.
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Robz888

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 5
« Reply #960 on: October 27, 2020, 12:52:20 pm »

I think we should just discount Space being mafia. If Space was mafia, they don't actually need to work so hard to sway me on one exile or the other.
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Robz888

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 5
« Reply #961 on: October 27, 2020, 12:54:39 pm »

As additional evidence that didds is the scum and chairs is the town, chairs is voting for someone confirmed scum to them and didds is voting for... Galz.
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WestCoastDidds

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 5
« Reply #962 on: October 27, 2020, 01:13:40 pm »

As additional evidence that didds is the scum and chairs is the town, chairs is voting for someone confirmed scum to them and didds is voting for... Galz.

I will vote for chairs or Galz.  I moved to Galz yesterday after you said that you would consider exiling him over chairs, and then faust thought that might be a better way to go. There is zero inconsistency in my votes.  I know that chairs is scum and I strongly suspect that Galz is. Since all 4 town have to vote together, I am open to either of those.  I am not trying to be cagey, cryptic, or indecisive.

Vote: chairs

Robz888

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 5
« Reply #963 on: October 27, 2020, 01:25:00 pm »

You are working me so much harder than chairs!
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chairs

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 5
« Reply #964 on: October 27, 2020, 02:40:33 pm »

As additional evidence that didds is the scum and chairs is the town, chairs is voting for someone confirmed scum to them and didds is voting for... Galz.

I've been staying quiet in hopes that Didds accidentally outs her partner in this process, but this is what's killing me. Why, WHY, would you not insist upon exiling me if you wanted to keep up the doctor facade? How have we not already just ended this with a Didds exile, my death Tonight, and then mxlo (misexile you lose) tomorrow?

chairs

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 5
« Reply #965 on: October 27, 2020, 02:43:55 pm »

I just can't even right now, honestly.

Partner pairings:

Didds/Space - I can't picture Space being scum this game.
Didds/faust - maaaaybe? Faust did come out strong against me Today, and a misexile today wins the game for scum, so I can kind of see it.
Didds/galz - Only really feasible if Galz is playing the long game, writing Didds off as likely a lost cause, and hoping to win Tomorrow.

WestCoastDidds

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 5
« Reply #966 on: October 27, 2020, 03:47:51 pm »

You are working me so much harder than chairs!

The whole game depends on this one decision. Exile me and itís over. Iím not sure what else to do.

Robz888

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 5
« Reply #967 on: October 27, 2020, 05:59:17 pm »

I mean, Iím never exiling space, which means deciding which is the scum between Faust and Galzria is basically the same as deciding the scum between chairs and Didds.

I personally think any set could be partners.
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Galzria

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 5
« Reply #968 on: October 27, 2020, 06:28:56 pm »

I mean, Iím never exiling space, which means deciding which is the scum between Faust and Galzria is basically the same as deciding the scum between chairs and Didds.

I personally think any set could be partners.

Beyond that, from your perspective at least, I think itís pretty clear that itís very likely either {Chair, Galz}, or {WCD, faust (honorable outside possibility of {WCD, Chairs}, but for many reasons thatís unlikely). Actions today speak volumes to that.

I made my case yesterday on why I thought WCD was scum. WCD has charged that I was setting up the argument of ďWCD vs ChairsĒ yesterday, which makes no sense as I wouldnít have known she was the Doctor in that scenario. Sheís claimed that scum DID know she was a Doctor which, again, makes no sense as scum wouldíve killed her instead of risking the NK be doctored. Sheís claimed to be willing to vote me to ďget an exile throughĒ, which, given she knows 100% Chairs is scum (in her town world) and CANNOT say the same for me is ridiculous.

But honestly the most compelling thing for me is the iso and vote counts surrounding Eevee. Thereís nothing there that screams ďWCD is scumĒ, but there IS stuff that screams ďChairs is townĒ.

If I were voting and ignoring everything Eevee did/was associated with this game, I would vote Chairs over WCD here. Certainly the play this game day has been stronger from WCD. But Iím not. Eevee all but guaranteed Chairs to be town. As my only hard piece of evidence to go on, Iím not changing my vote.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

Galzria

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 5
« Reply #969 on: October 27, 2020, 06:30:39 pm »

You are working me so much harder than chairs!

The whole game depends on this one decision. Exile me and itís over. Iím not sure what else to do.

I think thatís pretty much true regardless of your alignment.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

Robz888

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 5
« Reply #970 on: October 27, 2020, 07:15:30 pm »

The fact that everyone in this game, including the scum, evidently want us all to be forced to presume that the team is either didds/faust or chairs/Galz... should give greater pause!
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Galzria

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 5
« Reply #971 on: October 27, 2020, 07:40:11 pm »

The fact that everyone in this game, including the scum, evidently want us all to be forced to presume that the team is either didds/faust or chairs/Galz... should give greater pause!

Of course. But thereís a 0% chance Iím considering Space today. And if you want to consider me being paired with WCD, or Faust with Chairs, thatís fine. Neither seems particularly relevant today.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

Galzria

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 5
« Reply #972 on: October 27, 2020, 07:52:37 pm »

The fact that everyone in this game, including the scum, evidently want us all to be forced to presume that the team is either didds/faust or chairs/Galz... should give greater pause!

Also, I think youíre seeing a result of it not generally mattering right now.

I know Iím town.
Faust knows heís town.

If weíre ruling out Space, then unless either of us thinks {WCD, Chairs} is likely, thereís little else for us to consider. Hence, Faust would argue, his vote on me (which ignores that thereís SOME chance Space is scum, but nevermind that).

WCD and Chairs should both be considering between {Me, faust, Space}, but again, thatís not relevant to either of them right now as they each know that the other claimed Doctor is lying.

You, Robz, and maybe Space, are the only two that the question arguably matters to at this time. I donít think youíre seeing anything more than an irrelevance factor at this time.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

chairs

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 5
« Reply #973 on: October 27, 2020, 09:47:08 pm »

Right. It frankly matters very little whether it's Galz or Faust (or even Space) for that matter. Didds and I are both claiming doctor. One of us (Didds) is lying. Even if you think scum is {Didds, faust} or {chairs, Galz} it makes MORE sense to focus on picking the right one (Didds) of the two of us.

WestCoastDidds

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 5
« Reply #974 on: October 27, 2020, 11:33:58 pm »

I am not lying and chairs knows it.

Saying am lying over and over again doesnít make it any more true. Itís not an argument and doesnít and there is no way to evaluate a repeated assertion other than it is an assertion.   

I agree that the most direct exile is to oust the fake claim {chairs} and then they can sort out tomorrow if Galz is the last scum.

Galz is wrong....chairs interactions with Eevee donít vindicate him. One of the best examples of chairs acting in concert with Eevee was getting caught on his wagon. Chairs started D3 by voting for Galz. Then he moves to eevee. D3 is only 3 pages (for me 27-29) and chairs doesnít have a single post that isnít immediately preceded or followed immediately by a post from Eevee or Galz. It sure reads like a day chat/thread chat collaboration. Here is the eevee vote:

I might not have time until Tuesday, but I will go through and specify more about why Eevee is our best bet for scum today, imo.

I mean I can see the Eevee argument myself, and since Galz has appeared and promised to post...


Vote: eevee

Oddly, this post is immediately followed by

seems i'm a popular lynch candidate, i think it would be good for everyone to take a firm position on whether they think that's a good idea or not.

Huh? Only chairs was voting for eevee and the day was just beginning.
 

Chairsí post obvi says nothing AND they had daychat so it was just no risk bussing him. It was early in the day so NBG. Plus, there was cover like this:

Eevee... man, Eevee actually does not sound like scum!Eevee to me.

Later that day, EFHW posted her result and Eevee was exiled 20 minutes later. Chairs couldnít have moved off of eevee if he wanted and if you think  it helped give him any cred, then I should get the same cred for hammering eevee.

Chairs behavior that day, is way more suspicious than mine.  Donít ISO him....just reread that day. Knowing there was daychat makes the extensive back and forth.

I am the doctor. There is nothing to suggest otherwise, I havenít pushed any scummy exiles or positions. Galzís wall post is an a biased attempt to paint me in a bad light.

Robz thinks my doc targets were lame, and that makes them unlikely. Galz thinks Iím dense for not figuring out what other roles exist that could have led to EFHWs death even though I doctored her. Both of these are because Iím not awesome at knowing what to do or how things works, but not because I am lying. Space and faust have both pointed out that each of these makes sense with regard to me.

Finally, when faust said he was 70% sure we should claim, I asked what the 30% risk was. After Robz made his doctor statement, I was actively trying to figure it out if it was time to claim. Iíve lost us games before doing it too early so I didnít want to reveal it too early. (This is in addition to the discussion on D4 where I explained why I didnít want to be night killed (because I am the doctor).

Iím not trying to work anyone over. I think there is a better case for me being the doctor and a better case for chairs being scum, with actual evidence, than the inverse.

Chairs hasnít made any arguments about me being scum. Galz is taking that bullet, which is why it looks to me like they are working together.

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