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Author Topic: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Game Over! Skum Wins!  (Read 9303 times)

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SpaceAnemone

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 4
« Reply #775 on: October 18, 2020, 04:21:30 pm »

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here (and I don't see it mentioned), but with MiX being a Rot, the Calico was converted into an Encryptor, giving scum day-chat. Eevee flipped Calico though, which means scum has lost day-chat, yes?

The wording in the mod-posted scum QT examples says "While you're alive, your Mafia QT will be unlocked for both the Day and the Night", so I read that to mean that now Eevee is no longer alive, they no longer have daychat.
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Congratulations! Your SpaceAnemone evolved into UniverseAnemone!
Town games: M84(L), M85(W), M86(L), M87(W), M88(L), M90(L), M92(W), M94(L), M97(L), M99(W), M100(L), M104(W), M107(W), M110(L), M112(L), RMM37(L), RMM40(D), RMM41(L), RMM43(L), RMM47(W), ZM23(W).
Scum games: M89(D), M108(L), NM8(W&MVP), NM10(L)   Mod: NM9, RMM38, RMM42.   Pronouns: they/them

Galzria

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 4
« Reply #776 on: October 18, 2020, 04:27:42 pm »

Waiting for Galzria, by Samuel Beckett

Is everyone completely talked out without my posting? That's kinda sad.

Here's a word count of everyone in the game so far:

Player word counts:
   5291 SpaceAnemone
   3167 Glooble
   2962 Eevee
   2711 EFHW
   2619 faust
   2560 WestCoastDidds
   2372 Dylan32
   2056 A Drowned Kernel
   1989 MiX
   1343 Chairs
   1026 Galzria
   695 Robz888
   598 Joseph2302

You've said less in this game than MiX, and he died N1. You also didn't vote at all in D2 or D3, and your only votes in D1 were on the IC and on Joseph.

The way I see it, you're absolutely screwing all of us over for PoE by not being present. If you didn't want to kill the conversation in a game you've been killing with a lack of participation, why on earth have you spent the last 24 hours vaguely flagging an intention to say something without actually participating?

And yet still more words than Robz, who is also alive and kicking (not knocking you here Robz, just refuting the validity of Space's overly dramatic point).

And I'm hardly screwing anybody over for PoE. I'm one data point out of thirteen players, three of whom are scum, one of whom has flipped. There's plenty of PoE to do, with or without my input.

Lastly, I've found that acknowledging that you're working on putting something together is generally much more useful than not saying anything at all while you do so - it A) prevents, you know, Mod-Kills, and B) gives others something to hold you accountable to.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

WestCoastDidds

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 4
« Reply #777 on: October 18, 2020, 05:28:46 pm »

Space is on fire! They're not wrong, if a bit more pointed than I'd likely put it, and I think its a shared sentiment. 

All of which is to say, welcome back Galzy. What are you thinking about the game. Hopefully the absence gave you some perspective that will help us!

Robz888

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 4
« Reply #778 on: October 18, 2020, 10:14:08 pm »

We're doing WORD counts now? This has not been a particularly chatty game for most of us, that's true.
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Robz888

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 4
« Reply #779 on: October 18, 2020, 11:22:40 pm »

Vote: ADK
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Robz888

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 4
« Reply #780 on: October 18, 2020, 11:24:54 pm »

Unvote
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Robz888

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 4
« Reply #781 on: October 18, 2020, 11:26:31 pm »

Nah, I'll stick with it

Vote: ADK
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Galzria

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 4
« Reply #782 on: October 19, 2020, 12:38:57 am »

Hey, look, a thingy!

Alright, well, aside from D2 getting away from me - I was fully mid-read on D3 when EFHW dropped the result on Eevee and the lynch went through in 6 posts. Didn't even have time to notice that it happened, as I had the thread open to 'All' and didn't see that series of posts go down until afterward.

I don't even know where exactly to start here, but I guess I'll put the ISO's first, some VCA stuff and voting thoughts after, and overall conclusions at the end.

The most obvious place to start ISO's is with Eevee, I suppose.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Eevee:

Eevee's first 9 posts are mostly NAI stuff. Eevee is asked specific questions from faust & Space, but nothing that makes him really put down anything concrete - it just generates interaction. His first real stated read is in post #101, where he finds WCD towny:
Have we seen Dylan or Joseph yet?

I think maybe scum EFHW is more present. Iím not finding I gotta anything off about MiX at all, so far. Eevee is always wonderful and so far, not scummy. ADKs annoyance with people not voting makes me giggle and also typical...but perhaps the least interesting in terms of trying to sort people. Galz is hanging back more than Iíd guess.

faust and space are hard for me to figure out. Glooble is tricky here....I know he is busy, but also when heís scum he gets quiet.

Who am I missing? Oh, chairs! I have zero ability to read chairs. I always think sheís scummy. He rarely is.

Vote: ADK
I think this is a towny post. I like the content, and the idea of doing a reads post, all in all good feels.
Generally speaking, this is something I feel scum more often says about town than about scum, especially early on when getting the game established. Still, there is no immediate direct harm in making this read about a partner here, so it could go either way. For my preference though, it slightly moves the needle on WCD towards town.

Eevee's next post, #116, expresses a town read on Glooble for getting frustrated by MiX. This is in line with what I would expect from early scum!Eevee. He's going to set out to build relationships with towns people to extend his general town-credy nature.

Post #201 is the first significant post Eevee makes in terms of really getting a feel for partners. I would expect Eevee to have slightly conflicting reads on his partners. Nothing super concrete as either scummy or towny. "I think they're town BUT they're doing scummy things" sort of thing. Gives him pivot options down the road.
I reread ADK, absolutely don't want to lynch them. Feels they're making a lot of analysis, while I don't agree with all of the conclusions I think that kind of player is so useful to have around.

I'm reading through individual people, looking for someone to vote for.

chairs: Fairly lurky, but I really enjoyed the long reads post even if it was mostly fluff.

Joseph: I'd expect more visibility and participation from Joseph, but the posts he have made seem towny to me. Seems to be trying to figure out the game, asking things I was wondering about too.

EFHW: Ever so slight scum points for the early mention of being scum so often lately, just feel those jokes are more likely to come from scum.

Dylan and Space: Very few posts still (for understandable reasons), hard to say yet.

faust: Surprisingly lurky, but he's the kind of player I was describing when rereading ADK, I'm hesitant to lynch but would like more from.

I guess I'll vote: chairs
Eevee gives reads on 6 players in this post: Dylan, EFHW, and Joseph are all town. ADK he expresses a strong town read on. faust and Chairs are middle ground. I would lean towards scum being more likely in {Chairs, faust} over ADK here.

Post #398 is interesting to me, because Eevee doubles down on a few things: Calling ADK really super particularly townie, and suggesting interest in seeing a Chairs lynch.
Grunch grunch!

I also think Glooble is town (but ADK is townier).

I really think Joseph is a good bet, and I wouldn't oppose a lurker exile (say chairs). Mix lately has been behaving like I'd expect from his townself, but come to think of it not sure I've ever seen him as scum, as much as I've always thought he was.

Main point, not sure why the Joseph wagon fizzled, I didn't find his defense compelling at all. I didn't see Didds's original posts as scummy as others, but the defense didn't ring very genuine to me, I'll be keeping my eye out on them.

All in all, deadline close, the case on Joseph was a GREAT d1 case, I really think we should go for that.

Also funny sidenote, if Robz wasn't the IC, I'd totally be calling for his lurker lynch now, haha. (... I know his play makes sense for IC, just think it's funny that it makes sense for IC and scum to play sort of the same way.)
Both stand out as somewhat scummy takes. While the read on ADK in #201 was slightly less suspect the first time around, the doubling down on it here feels slightly out of place. Like, if ADK is town, what's the point? I guess the reason it bugs me here is that it was an uncalled for read. He was actually expressing a town read on Glooble, and then he casually threw in that he reads ADK as even MORE town. There was no reason for that addition. The consideration I have towards the Chairs read is that in post #201, when Eevee first expressed this read, there was no other real expressed interest in Chairs (Glooble had voted there in post #69, but had since moved on) - it was a completely safe place for Eevee to put his vote (if they're partnered). Eevee left his vote on Chairs until #285 (when he moved to Joseph), and then from #324-#378 faust was voting Chairs. Eevee didn't really circle back around to this Chairs read until again, there was no expressed interest in a Chairs lynch. It just feels like from a partner narrative, Eevee kept pinging Chairs whenever Chairs had no real action around him and it was safe to do so.

This post also makes my WCD needle read slightly townier again. While it's later in the day and unlikely that we'll see movement to WCD, the way Eevee presents the read on WCD makes me feel like they aren't partnered. Not only does he suggest re-evaluating his own previous very slight town read on WCD,but he subtly reminds others that they used to have early scum reads on her.

In post #407, Eevee suggests that "follow the IC" might be necessary as deadline approaches. It's notable that the IC's reads to that point were largely expressed by votes on Glooble (#109), Joseph (#250), WCD (#305), & Glooble (#385). Two of those three players are now flipped town. At this point in time, Joseph had hit a peak of 6 votes (#339: Galzria, Dylan, Eevee, Glooble, MiX, Chairs), WCD had reached a peak of 3 votes (#308: Robz, EFHW, Chairs), and Glooble had hit a peak of 4 votes (#385: ADK, faust, Space, Robz).

In post #417, Eevee expresses a feeling that my post in #416 is scummy because I expressed reservations on Joseph due to Eevee's presence on the wagon, and read Glooble as town. This makes me feel good about my gut reads.

Post #494 is Eevee's first real post from D2. There's a handful of things to take note of here:
Catching up now.

My instinct is that the people who followed dylan onto joseph are much more likely to be scum than he is, particularly since pretty much every one of those votes was justified by saying "Dylan's case seems solid". If he's scum he's bold scum, and I don't feel like I've played enough with him to tell if that's his style

This is a really good point I think.



Space seems more than usually preoccupied with how she's coming off as, and maybe kind of overexplaining herself? The points she's making make logical sense to me though, but she's so eloquent that maybe I shouldn't read too much into it.

ADK continues to look towny to me, also think Glooble is probably town from yesterday. I think Dylan is towny for pushing Joseph, paradoxically enough. faust I don't have much of an impression on yet which is weird, same for Galzria which I'd say makes both more than mildly suspicious.

I would guess that scum killed Mix because he's headstrong and his reads were good, at least in some capacity? Could also be a sign for Robz that his reads yesterday were not correct.

First, clearly, is the continued unshakable town read on ADK. But let's briefly unpack ADK's point that Eevee was agreeing with. Dylan first voted for Joseph in post #283. The votes for Joseph that "followed" Dylan are: Eevee (#285), Glooble (#314), MiX (#337) & Chairs (#339). The conclusion of that series of votes is what put Joseph at 6 votes the first time around. Given MiX was killed N1, it would be slightly unusual for Eevee to push the consideration of this list if both he and Chairs are scum. Especially because he goes on to state a town read on Glooble from D1 in the same post. As Eevee goes on to cast the third vote on Chairs (#511), this is the strongest piece of evidence that Chairs and Eevee are NOT partners. Note that faust had previously D2 been voting for Chairs (#472-#497), and could've very easily come back to the wagon.

The ONLY thing that detracts from that line of thought is the fact that scum had daychat, and it's a lot easier to coordinate bussing. Still, to believe Chairs is Eevee's partner, you'll need to believe that Eevee advocated looking closely at a list that was essentially {Eevee, Glooble, Chairs}, and that he then generally stated a town read on Glooble while shortly after voting Chairs. Meh.

Day 3 doesn't hold a whole heck of a lot of interesting things from Eevee. He comes in pretty quick trying to pick up interest in the Chairs wagon (although never actually votes there). He continues to express a town read on ADK, going so far as to say he's the one player he would feel comfortable tying his vote to (#667). He contends that he was a super popular exile choice and that he had real concern over being lynched D2 (and that the narrative of his non-exile would consume D3) - it's notable that he only ever reached 2 votes on D2, one from EFHW (#512), and one from WCD (#514) - although perhaps you could argue that there was plenty of other expressed interest in his exile (my last post of D1 suggested exactly that from me, so). He makes what is really only his second ever read on Space in #704 (first was #494, quoted above). In neither does Eevee actually make any attempt to generate interest on Space. It's much more of a passing comment. In fact, most anything Eevee had to say regarding Space was about them, rather than engaging with them. I feel like overall that's more scummy than neutral. Lastly, in #702 Eevee calls a "scumteam" of {WCD, Galzria, Space}. I have a really hard time believing he put all town in that list, and just based on the overall ISO here I feel WCD is townier than Space.

Eevee has strikingly few interactions around faust. Like, really, it's tough for me to think that scum!Eevee wouldn't have done more to engage town!faust, whereas I can see him steering clear of scum!faust. Still, the lack of interaction makes it harder to pin anything really solid here.

Based off everything from Eevee (exclusively), my gut says the remaining scum are two amongst {ADK, Space, faust}, and {WCD, Chairs} are town.
----------------------------------------------------------------
faust:

Let's just get this meaningless point out there: The longer faust lives into a game, the more likely he is to be scum.

A lot of early fluff posts from faust. I might normally find this scummy, but he's been playing looser later in general. First post that stands out to me is #155, wherein he pushes ADK on his "Three people town reading me must mean one is scum" point.
Three people in a row saying I'm townie is noteworthy. I'm going to guess that there's exactly one scum on that group
Want to also veture a guess which one it is?
When you consider those three people were all town (EFHW, Dylan, Joseph), this is the sort of narrative and discussion that scum loves. Some arbitrary grouping of people that are all town to paint as scummy? Yeah... That said, I don't think this is any MORE scummy from faust than it is from ADK.

Ugh. Faust is really hard to pin down. Like, not that he's super sneaky, it's just that, try as I might to dig in and approach him with a scum narrative, he just reads as really, really townie to me. My usual feel for Faust is "Super-Tunnel-Vision he's scum" D1, which gives way to "I still really think he's scum" D2, and then usually ends in "Ok, I'm wrong, he's town" OR "I'm right, he's scum" D3, and usually I'm right at that point.

faust has a lot interactions. He has votes (ADK, Joseph, Chairs, Glooble on D1. Chairs, Glooble on D2. ADK on D3), although maaaaybe I could argue he's been a little too dialed with his votes. D4 and he's only voted for 4 of 12 (discounting himself) players feels slightly as if he's not interested in pursuing real reads/lynches - except I can't really argue that because I don't feel like the content of his posts actually supports it.

I guess the things that kinda stand out to me, if I had to pick them, are that he's one of the few players that seemed to scum read ADK at various points throughout the game (ADK has largely been town read), and he's deflected from Space without really interacting with Space. But neither of those are concrete things. I would say his voting record is more (potentially) indicative of him being scum. He has almost no direct interactions with Eevee - certainly none that point towards his alignment. Overall, I just think faust is more towny than not.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
WCD:

My initial thought here is that WCD is the most likely to call for an early MiX NK - MiX reads WCD well, and I know she doesn't like being scum when he's town.

All the normal early fluff posts are here. That's NAI for WCD. Her first post is #97, where it's a little striking that she feels the need to create a read for every player in the game. It shouldn't be that hard for town to say "Hey, game's barely begun, I have no idea what's what!", whereas I think scum!Didds is a little more worried about seeming as if she's trying to form reads.
Have we seen Dylan or Joseph yet?

I think maybe scum EFHW is more present. Iím not finding I gotta anything off about MiX at all, so far. Eevee is always wonderful and so far, not scummy. ADKs annoyance with people not voting makes me giggle and also typical...but perhaps the least interesting in terms of trying to sort people. Galz is hanging back more than Iíd guess.

faust and space are hard for me to figure out. Glooble is tricky here....I know he is busy, but also when heís scum he gets quiet.

Who am I missing? Oh, chairs! I have zero ability to read chairs. I always think sheís scummy. He rarely is.

Vote: ADK
As far as the reads themselves go, she town reads Eevee - but it's notable that she has a hard time expressing reads on so many people that are still alive (faust, Space, Chairs) - it's only notable because she's actively TRYING to form reads on EVERYONE though. Had she only had two or three reads up to this point, I really wouldn't blink an eye at the people she didn't mention (I would assume she didn't have reads on them). I don't know. It makes it harder to pin down possible partner connections. I guess I should note that she DID have an opinion on a flipped scum (even if it was town), so if WCD is in fact scum, she's not entirely hesitant to give her opinion on teammates.

WCD flips her read on ADK from post #97 to #174, but that's not entirely unreasonable this early in the game. She sheeps MiX onto me here though, which just feels a little lazy for her - especially given she hadn't really expressed a strong town read on MiX (she's more likely to sheep strong town reads). The reasoning behind MiX's vote left something to be desired though ("Not scummy, but really high chances of having gotten scum this game"), so this quick vote immediately following from WCD just feels off.

There's nothing really notable about WCD's #251, except that it's basically identical to Eevee's post in #252. The posts were 42 minutes apart - I don't think scum intentionally make these posts, but I'm not convinced they avoid it either:
Whatís the argument on Jospeh?
Why are we voting Joseph?

It's interesting to me that despite expressing opinions about multiple people, WCD doesn't get around to moving her vote from me (#174) until #361. During that time, Glooble had reached 3 votes, Joseph had gone from 0 votes to 6 votes, EFHW had upwards of 3 votes - and Chairs, MiX, ADK had all had votes. WCD herself went from 0 to 3 votes during this time. Her vote (and MiX's from #173), along with MiX re-voting me in #226 were the only votes cast on me. And WCD never actually expressed any real read on me (certainly she never justified her vote) other than that I was quieter than she thought I should be - a charge made equally against Joseph and faust (#214). This just feels off for WCD.

WCD opens D2 (#439) with an "Oh no! Not X!" (In this case, MiX) post, which is an extremely classic scum post - but coming from WCD specifically, maybe not so much.

#514 is the first really interesting post D2. A simple, unexplained (initially) vote for Eevee. This is the second vote for Eevee, following EFHW's vote two posts prior. One would think WCD was sheeping EFHW here - which would be really, really weird given WCD's push of EFHW as scum herself starting in post #361. This absolutely feels like opportunistic early Bus Cred.

Let's look at post #549:
Iím reading and following along, but Iím super swamped right now my apologies for not bring more engaged. Hopefully Iíll be out from under soon.

For me, Eevee and EFHW are on the scummy side of the street. Chairs is close to them.

Space and Glooble somewhere in the middle. Galz I guess, too.

ADK, faust, and Dylan on the friendly side.
If we assume Eevee and WCD are partners, it's unlikely that Chairs is the third. I don't really see WCD putting both partners in the bottom 3, even if neither are in any serious danger. I would expect at most 1 in the bottom tier, and 1 in the middle tier (if she's underplaying her reads). Honestly though, I would expect 1 partner in the bottom/middle, and 1 in the top. WCD nightmare scenario is being the last scum alive. She doesn't throw both partners under the bus. This means that if she's partners with Eevee, my most expected third would be ADK or faust, with an outside chance of Space. The vote for Chairs in #620 "over Glooble or faust", which puts Chairs at 3 (to match the 3 on Glooble) almost - ALMOST secures the non-pair between WCD and Chairs. Caveat being Daychat.

Starting D3, WCD agrees with Eevee that we have to get the exile right - she then turns to EoD VCA on Glooble. What's odd here is that, despite WCD being on the Eevee train D2 (the mostly non-existent Eevee train, mind you), WCD concludes "I think at least 2 scum are on Glooble. Maybe even all three. ADK and chairs are pretty high on my list." Here's the entire quote, which includes the EoD wagon:
Adorable mutts getting whacked left and right! Ugh!

Alright people....eevee is spot on. Weíve got to get this right.

Here is the final vote count...I think at least 2 scum are on Glooble. Maybe even all three. ADK and chairs are pretty high on my list.


Glooble (6): faust, Robz888, ADK, chairs, Eevee, Space
chairs (2): Glooble, WCD
Eevee (1): EFHW

Not Voting (2): Dylan, Galz

Sooooo.... why the sudden change? And ADK had been a solid town read of WCD's for quite some time. Interesting VCA note from my PoV: With Glooble, Dylan and EFHW all being town, either WCD is scum, or in fact all three scum WERE on the Glooble wagon. With daychat that's not entirely implausible. Especially if faust is scum - he's more aware of VCA's use amongst f.ds players than anybody I know.

And then WCD's reads flip back again in #691/#692:
seems i'm a popular lynch candidate, i think it would be good for everyone to take a firm position on whether they think that's a good idea or not.

I think it's a bad idea and I don't understand where the sentiment is coming from

Then whoís on your list?

Quite frankly I'm starting to think it's you, sorry

Think harder, then, because we need to get this right and itís not me.
Highest on my lists are eevee and space. Give those a think...

Like, where did this Space read come from? And now she's back to Eevee? This is all very inconsistent.

The last thing I have here for WCD is that she is trying really, really hard today to make it seem like she was all over Eevee for being scummy earlier in the game when... the truth is that just wasn't the case. Yes, she voted Eevee D2, and spent much of the day with her vote parked there. She even has a few places where she tries to get discussion going on Eevee - but she's never fully committed to it, and it's at a time when Eevee is completely unlikely to be exiled. This feels a lot like scum trying to get credit for having scum reads on scum... without ever having *really* tried to get scum exiled.

ISO'd out, WCD has a LOT of scum points against her.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADK:

ADK is notoriously difficult for me to read. They often have a lot of engagement, and it's active engagement. They aren't just commenting on things, but interacting. This *should* make it easier to make reads, but their tone feels so natural that I always read it as genuine, which then reads as townie. Problem for me is, this is true for scum!ADK too.

ADK has very little fluff early on. Gets right into it. Nothing really stands out until post #154, when they throw out the whole "Three people town reading me in a row makes me feel one is scum" line of thought. All three of those people have since flipped town. What's that say about ADK? Nothing, I guess, just that I didn't like the reasoning D1, and especially don't like it now that we have flips.

ADK is very aggressive. They've had and pushed a lot of scum reads on flipped town players - but that's often as much a town trait as it is a scum trait. They're the only person to have voted Space (#436) opening D2. They've been largely town read, and have peaked at just 2 votes.

ADK pushes Space pretty hard out of the gate D2, but then abruptly and without reason switches to Chairs in post #456. Not really sure here, but it's the first thing that stands out as non-genuine. In #461, ADK brings around the argument that the people that followed Dylan onto Joseph are more likley to be scum than others. This list is Eevee (#285), Glooble (#314), MiX (#337) and Chairs (#339). I'm guessing this was the reason ADK voted for Chairs? If ADK is scum, Chairs most likely is not. Given MiX had already flipped town, it seems unlikely ADK pushes to setup a lynch pool of Scum!Eevee, Town!Glooble, Scum!Chairs.

ADK had almost no interactions with Eevee whatsoever, which is slightly notable as ADK interacted with a lot of players. He doesn't really speak much of faust either, but drops a hard town read on faust out of nowhere in #482.

The public discussion with faust regarding VCA in #486/#487 reads slightly partner-y to me. Given where we're at, looking at the Glooble Wagon, if WCD is town, then all 3 scum were on the Glooble wagon. Considering scum had daychat, there's definitely a certain degree of scummy awareness that keeps pinging me.

IAs noted, I have a hard time reading ADK, but if I were to say there's one thing that feels scummy to me about them it's that he feels very self aware, in a way that town often isn't. What they're doing and how it's perceived just... seem to matter to them. Everything feels intentional. I don't know how better to describe it. Their response to WCD in #657 for example (although I admit I too thought WCD's pivot was strange):
Adorable mutts getting whacked left and right! Ugh!

Alright people....eevee is spot on. Weíve got to get this right.

Here is the final vote count...I think at least 2 scum are on Glooble. Maybe even all three. ADK and chairs are pretty high on my list.


Glooble (6): faust, Robz888, ADK, chairs, Eevee, Space
chairs (2): Glooble, WCD
Eevee (1): EFHW

Not Voting (2): Dylan, Galz

What changed your read on me from yesterday?

or the way they deflect off Eevee in the following post:
I think Eevee has to be scum here.

1. opportunistic voting
2. amazingly towny posts (528 and 529) directly after I voted him (513), but not before or since.
3. Fake dismay about nk.
4. Suddenly giving advice to town, mostly the standard Day 3 things people say.
5. If I squint and look for the players who have not received attention, have not done much, yet have been around, Eevee pops out.
6. He was on the Joseph wagon.

This list reads like you decided to scumread eevee first and then came up with reasons after

I don't know. It's a gut thing, I guess?

In #672 ADK doubles down on the Eevee defense, which is scummy... but... did they need to? Is it better to defend your partner there, or stay back and see how it plays out? That's very aggressive for partner play.

I'm torn on ADK. I'm really, really bad at reading them. My gut says scummy, and I think there are things that support that - but then I also feel like there are things that don't support them being scum with Eevee, so. :-/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Space:

Space is also notoriously difficult for me to read. I generally rely on others opinion, or VCA - although I don't think I've seen scum!space very much.

The first post they make that catches my eye reads townie, and that's post #198. My general recollection is that scum!space has a harder time generating real reads than town!space.
After getting the vote counter going, I also started looking at where the earliest wagon formation started out. ADK is the first person to pick up a multi-vote wagon, at #97 where WCD joins faust on ADK. WCD's assessment was that ADK seemed to be displaying annoyance at people not voting. I don't quite see where that's from, tbh. The original ADK vote was from faust at #77, and was unexplained, but that's pretty common for faust.

From re-reading ADK, I'd say that they fall pretty early into the trap of focusing on what is and isn't normal MiX.

I agree with ADK's response to Eevee about it being more important for scum to live individually than for town.

EFHW's question to ADK at #102 is a bit odd, now I think about it. ADK was clearly criticizing MiX for contributing a lot of words without a lot of analysis, whereas very few people (me, Robz, faust and Dylan) have contributed fewer words than Galz. And on that tangent, I think it's fine for Robz not to say much yet as the IC, and I'm trying to make amends now, even though I'm really not a good D1 player. I think Dylan's been ill, and faust just isn't that verbose, but maybe I should double-check how much he has actually said. Anyway, back on my original point, ADK pointed the distinction out to EFHW at #104.. was that ever followed up/acknowledged?

ADK votes Glooble for a sarcastic comment about MiX being townie for sheeping the IC.

#139, another occasion where ADK directly disagrees with something Eevee says, and again, I feel that I agree more with ADK (in this case that tunnelling someone is an easy role for scum to assume, instead of being something that's hard for scum to mimic).

Aha, apparently from #154, I'm not very original in finding ADK townie. Oh well.

#157-#160: huh, more ADK-Eevee interaction around ADK's asserion that there's probably exactly one scum in the three people who found them townie, which was {EFHW, Dylan, Joseph} in that order.

Okay, so the tl;dr for that re-read is that I find ADK townie, but with an interesting amount of civil disagreement with Eevee in particular, and that I want to re-read faust.
I guess it would be amusing to me if the team were {Eevee, ADK, Space}, and Space chose to comment largely on their scummates.

There are a couple of places where Space indicates concern for how they will look if another player is exiled and flips scum (#445 for example), which coming from them feels townie. Obviously this isn't a concern for scum!Space, and I don't really feel like this is something scum!Space realizes MIGHT be a concern for town!Space. So, town points for that.

Really ISO'ing Space's EoD2 - and they genuinely read townie to me. Like, there seems to be genuine interest in finding scum, and genuine interest in getting the exile correct. If Space is scum, this EoD performance is very convincing, which is unusual for me, as I don't read them well at all.

I've really appreciated that Space has been drilling into the alignment of people that aren't yet flipped. As the remaining scum are amongst those players, it's refreshing to be ISO'ing a player that isn't making cases and arguments for players that are already dead and flipped.

I mean, look at #698 and tell me that doesn't sound like someone who is actually trying to find scum!:
Okay, so that's pretty interesting, and shows who's paying attention to what cases to some extent.

I asked about faust and ADK because it's central to the case faust was pushing on Glooble in D2, and in fact faust has now re-posted exactly the key wagon he used for his Glooble case, but with Glooble now coloured green.

The people who reacted to my question are:

1. Eevee at #688, asking why that pair in particular. He was on the Glooble exile wagon, but apparently "Welp I think it's time to vote glooble" was his only justification there (post #633).

2. ADK, who asserts their towniness, but also doesn't scumread faust. ADK was already pushing Glooble, but it's interesting they didn't seem to pay attention to the reason why faust was pushing so much on the evidence that (as I was trying to point out yesterday!) was really saying "one scum in {Glooble, ADK, faust}, rather than specifically pointing at Glooble.

Special note for Didds, who completely avoided engaging with my question, but did state me as a scumread with no justification.

3. EFHW, who asks "Based on what?" at #695. At least in EFHW's case, she was just ignoring the Glooble wagon and voting Eevee D2.

I think ADK comes off the scummiest of these, though I'm willing to go back and consider Eevee again by now too.

And finally, in un-Space-like fashion, they opened D4 here with a vote (and case) on ADK (#735), that follows up from their thoughts at the end of D3. I guess my question for Space would be: Your general thought process on D3 was prior to Eevee's alignment being known - has that flip changed anything for you?

Space has been, I think, the player I've re-read and most really, really felt is town. It's been refreshing and new! I like it!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Chairs:

Fluff until #120. Then this:
Let's be real, scumteam is MiX/Chairs/Robz and we bribed the mod to fake-IC Robz.  ::)

Thoughts:
0. Swowl
Obviously secretly playing as the grassy knoll scummer.

1. Dylan
HOW HAVE I NOT WRITTEN ANYTHING ABOUT YOU BY POST 56

2. WCD
First post - towny fluff.
IKR MIXIAN RESPONSE IS THE BEST.

3. EFHW
First post - towny fluff.
Next notable post is talking about liking cats despite being allergic. This is not very doglike behavior, EFHW, and I am disappointed.

4. ADK
First post calls out request for IC info. Means ADK read the setup. Reading the setup is scummy.
Votes MiX but feels the need to explain why. Explanations about MiX votes are for scum who want to feel better about wagoning their teammate (MiX, who is always scum). Scummy.
MIXIAN RESPONSE I love you, I'm not rewriting this post but you get a D1 pass now b/c I love this.
Tries to pair me as scum with mix. Is obviously trying to deflect from their own obvious pairing with mix.

5. Galz
Gets first post of D1, scummy. Eager to dig into MiX, known scum extraordinaire. Clearly D1 ploy to wagon a teammate for towncred. Scummy.
Votes Robz, confirmed Town.

6. Joseph

7. faust
Complicit in Swowl's plot to disenfranchise deserving dogs. Clearly a cat, and thus scum.
"Everybody wants to be a cat" notes. Everybody knows cats are stinky noodlebutts. DOG AM BEST BOI. SUPER SCUM.
Accuses mix of having trouble reading their own posts. I'm dying. Everyone knows cats don't have humor, so this must be a misdogerstanding.
votes ADK. ADK is the less obv of the obv!scum, so this is leaning me back towards dog-status more.

8. MiX
Tells Galz to trust his MiX!Radar. Neutral. We all have a great MiX!Radar, that being that MiX is always scum.
Votes EFHW. Thus, EFHW is Town.
Agrees with ADK voting MiX. IS MIX. Clearly a ploy to make scum!ADK look like town!ADK.
Votes EFHW... again? (reply 57). I can only assume this is some hardcore PR hunting.
Defends me. IS THIS THE RARE TOWN MIX? OR IS THIS A DIRTY CAT PLOY?

9. chairs
It's me! I'm amazing and practically perfect in every way.

10. Eevee
Trusting IC!Robz? Not a good look. Scum.
Fluffy? Good bois are fluffy and pettable. Maaaybe is dog?

11. Space
IS IN SPACE and thus a dog. Have you heard of any famous cats in space? NO. WE ONLY PUT GOOD DOGGOS IN SPACE. NO CAT.

12. Robz
IC.

13. Glooble
"Allergic to cats". Sounds like something a cat would say. Everyone knows even cats hate cats.
Votes me! Confirmed scum.

(14). Jotheonah
Killed N0 by Swowl. Basically John F Doggedy.



Okay I'm bored with that now, ran out of steam about post 84. Main takeaway? This game has had relatively little meat.

Specific notes in not-amusing-myself fashion:
MiX is bit fluffier than usual, which I actually think is a Town!MiX tell - I think scum!MiX kinda bares fangs a little quicker in the outset.
Eevee is stressing that Robz "reads me well" which feels a lil' scummy honestly.
XaL says vote: Dylan is a solid choice. Joseph also a good choice.
Robz as IC is great, because now I don't have to vote Robz off the island for being Robz, who I usually feel like plays a very scummy Town game (and a very scummy Scum game).
The way ADK has played off MiX makes me feel like ADK is kinda scummy.
faust comes off as, well, faust. I'd feel more towny about it from, say, Glooble, but for faust this is neutral.

JOHNNY FIVE NEEDS INPUT. More votes, folks.

Will try to read though stuff past 90 or so in a bit.
A lot of reads, some more serious than others. Slight scum read on Eevee this early stands out. His point isn't wrong - but I wouldn't expect it to get called out this early/quickly.

There aren't a lot of posts from Chairs, but he sheeps/votes a lot given the lack of overall posts. And he's all over the place. Take this post at #179:
Phone posting for like the next four days.

Not feeling good about this ADK situation that occurred. Feeling worse about the Galz situation.

Didds and MiX getting D1 passes from me

Followed by #308:
Vote: didds

Yeah that's a big ol nothing burger.

And #320:
MiX is sus. Haven't found a body but someone hit emergency meeting button. Gut feel.

Vote: mix

Or early(ish) on, in #262, when Chairs posts this:
Vote: glooble

I think the adk glooble interaction has me ready to vote one of them off the island and I think glooble has come off scummier in the interactions, personally.

And then this at #404:
Am I really lurking that much? Man, sorry. It doesn't feel like it on my end.

I think this it Town gloobs

I think the ADK argument from gloobs makes a lot of sense.

Vote: adk

In fact, Chairs votes for 6 unique people on D1, without doubling up on anybody. He then opens D2 voting for a 7th unique player (faust), before unvoting (#478) and casting his first repeat vote (#484) on Glooble. This then changes to an 8th unique player (me) in #547. For good measure, he got a vote on a Cop Caught Eevee D3 in #679, making 9 unique votes out of 12 cast.

It's almost as if he's just going off a checklist. This was post #478:
Okay good, my faust vote got d2 convos rolling. I can unvote now.

unvote

Leaning Gloobs but I want to actually take some time to reread.
Nobody else talked about faust or voted for him or did anything that even recognized the existence of the vote from the point in time he cast it (#455) to the above quote. It served no purpose, and didn't start any conversation. It's almost like Chairs has a quota to fill here.

And this, from #502, seems to confirm that Chairs is very aware of his play:
Question for chairs. What changed between here:

Vote: glooble

I think the adk glooble interaction has me ready to vote one of them off the island and I think glooble has come off scummier in the interactions, personally.

and here:

Am I really lurking that much? Man, sorry. It doesn't feel like it on my end.

I think this it Town gloobs

I think the ADK argument from gloobs makes a lot of sense.

Vote: adk

And now you're back on me again?



I'd love to hear some thoughts from Glooble on his D1 wagon.

Well, I've talked about ADK a lot. Robz is town. MiX was town. So that leave you, chairs and Space (taht's everyone who voted for me at all, I think.) See above for chairs- he goes back and forth between me and ADK in a way that I think it honestly pretty scummy. Space's initial vote for me reads like a joke vote. The weirdest thing is that they defend it like it was more serious than it initially appeared. Your vote doesn't come with a lot of explanation, I assume you just thought I was a better wagon than Joseph. But my wagon never had much substance to it.

Most likely scum is chairs I think. I'm still wary of ADK but my scumread on them has cooled somewhat, I think it was a little too emotionally motivated.

vote: chairs

PPE: faust voting for me

What happened mostly is that my votes and reads are mercurial, as always. This is not news ::) I always gutfeel my way through games, and I'm usually only really thinking about the last page or two of posts, tops, unless I have -just- read X pages (and even then, I find I just tie myself in knots if I don't just let everything flow like waves against the shore and see what treasure gets stuck in the sand).

And that's pretty much all from Chairs. Couple of votes for me each time it's brought up that I haven't posted.

His votes have also been extremely opportunistic, which I'll get into more in the VCA.

All in all, I would put him up there with WCD in terms of how scummy their individual ISO's are. This is true more for Chairs because of VCA (which will come next) than WCD, who is scummy because of her posts.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Going to continue with VCA's in a different post, and then do a third for complete thoughts.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

faust

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 4
« Reply #783 on: October 19, 2020, 05:58:38 am »

You've said less in this game than MiX, and he died N1. You also didn't vote at all in D2 or D3, and your only votes in D1 were on the IC and on Joseph.

The way I see it, you're absolutely screwing all of us over for PoE by not being present. If you didn't want to kill the conversation in a game you've been killing with a lack of participation, why on earth have you spent the last 24 hours vaguely flagging an intention to say something without actually participating?
You're stealing my lines!

Maybe it's just the most active players who get the most frustrated with inactivity. I have been less present here than usual, and so maybe Galzria's lurkiness has me less annoyed.

I gotta say though the complaints about Galz announcing a thing don't feel completely warranted. Clearly the kind of playstyle he follows requires a lot of time spent on each post. I think it's valid to say "I'm around working on something" when you are called out for inactivity; the alternative doesn't seem better.
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faust

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 4
« Reply #784 on: October 19, 2020, 06:00:27 am »

That's a possibility, but I'm worried we're going to let him off with basically no posting and he's going to have the laziest scum game in history.
Lol talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
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faust

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 4
« Reply #785 on: October 19, 2020, 06:07:10 am »

One of those Galz votes is from scum, yes?

I do tend to think so, though there are some not-entirely-impossible alternatives: Galz could be scum with either faust or WCD (though I don't think either of those scenarios is that likely), or there's a tiny outside chance of faust-WCD as scum, with that entire Galz wagon being townie. None of those three pairings seems more likely than any pairing involving ADK and the others, though.

I think the most likely scum-pairing right now seems to be ADK-Didds, though my Didds case is mainly only PoE, so I'm interested to see what faust has to say about her, since he mentioned wanting to do a re-read there.

I do feel like the current Galz wagon makes Galz-ADK and Galz-Chairs unlikely scum-pairings, because if scum!Galz got bussed by a teammate here, that would risk townies throwing frustrated votes at Galz just because of his extended absence and lack of game contributions to date, which could trap bussing scum uncomfortably.
I'm gonna chime in and say that I don't see how voting for Galzria serves a scum agenda here. It's not like he's just going to get quixiled. It just reads like an expression of frustation which is more townie than not (but certainly fakable).
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faust

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 4
« Reply #786 on: October 19, 2020, 06:30:28 am »

Which reminds me that a Didds reread was promised. Galzria did a lot of quoting and stuff so I'll try to not do that, seems repetitive.

Hot take that EFHW not being present means she's town... comes like less than 100 posts into the game. Just feels like a throwaway read, encouraging lurkiness is of course a place that scum likes to be at. Unrelated ADK vote, cool. Then moving to Galz, which is sure fine whatever. Look we have Eevee and Didds asking back to back why there are Joseph votes; those posts follow one another directly but with like 40 minutes in between, so no PPE. I don't know that Eevee would just echo his scumpartner. Didds is playing defense on Joseph a little bit, that's a place that I'd think a scum would go. We go into late D1 and the wagons were a bunch of town and a bit of Didds and Didds doesn't like the other wagons a lot... sure I suppose. Didds puhses EFHW only to join her in her quest on Eevee... which is weird but really not all that scummy. I mean.. that's your scumpartner right there, no need to join a professed scumread. It doesn't last that long I suppose. But she's pushing unknown!chairs over town!Glooble at least. And in doing so joins Eevee. So either Eevee + Didds decided to go after town together or it's a hard bus? IDK, neither seems all that necessary.

All in all I don't think there's a lot of scumminess on display here.
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faust

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 4
« Reply #787 on: October 19, 2020, 06:33:45 am »

Here's a word count of everyone in the game so far:
Random question, is your word counting algorithm sophisticated enough to cut out quoted bits?
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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 4
« Reply #788 on: October 19, 2020, 06:40:11 am »

I've been townreading Space but it's odd that everyone seems to agree that Space and I are town. If Space is indeed town, then that's not a winning strategy for scum. Unless they're really confident that they can misexile both townies in the remaining pool of 4.
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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 4
« Reply #789 on: October 19, 2020, 06:40:58 am »

Vote: ADK
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 4
« Reply #790 on: October 19, 2020, 08:57:38 am »

unvote
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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 4
« Reply #791 on: October 19, 2020, 08:58:01 am »

That is X-1 for ADK

Iím ready to hammer if yíall are ready to be done for today

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 4
« Reply #792 on: October 19, 2020, 08:58:25 am »

Vote: ADK

This is L-1 by the way

PPE: I have some stuff I would like to say if you don't mind
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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 4
« Reply #793 on: October 19, 2020, 09:00:53 am »

Okay.... but I get the feeling youíll be coming after me, so it makes me nervous. :)

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 4
« Reply #794 on: October 19, 2020, 09:03:23 am »

Okay.... but I get the feeling youíll be coming after me, so it makes me nervous. :)

I'm the one at L-1 and you're the one everyone's townreading, so why should it make you nervous?
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WestCoastDidds

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 4
« Reply #795 on: October 19, 2020, 09:12:46 am »

Galzy, some of the posts you find scummy are just me trying to get better at forming and articulating reads. Itís a work in progress. In my last game, scum killed me early because I was active so Iíve been trying to be less rando, but you know me....I kind of live for the chatter.

The other things Iíd say, reading two plus weeks of thoughts in a single sitting makes for an appearance of deliberate thought that isnít quite fair. Now, this is true for everyone, but really the case for me. When we started, I was in the midst of a book proposal and wasnít fully in this head space. Itís had for me to see the thoughts from before that was submitted and after it was submitted as continuous.

I prefer faustís assessment of...well, that was weird, but itís not scummy because it doesnít have any strategy behind it. Iím guessing that the VCA will bear this out once you get to that. If for no other reason, if I was going to bus, it wouldnít be the person who gave scum daychat. I freaking love daychat. Everyone knows this. It is known.

PPe- ADK, desperate people do desperate things! And I donít like being in anyoneís sights. Nervous is kind of my default. I am rarely relaxed when being picked apart.

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 4
« Reply #796 on: October 19, 2020, 09:24:35 am »

But really, here's my takeaway so far from Galz's post:

-it's a particular combination of insightful and confused (that is, doesn't seem to have a specific agenda) to make me think that Galz is town

-the most useful part of it is his iso of eevee, which is enough for me to back off of didds for now

-regarding some stuff he said about me:

Quote
IAs noted, I have a hard time reading ADK, but if I were to say there's one thing that feels scummy to me about them it's that he feels very self aware, in a way that town often isn't. What they're doing and how it's perceived just... seem to matter to them. Everything feels intentional. I don't know how better to describe it. Their response to WCD in #657 for example (although I admit I too thought WCD's pivot was strange):
Adorable mutts getting whacked left and right! Ugh!

Alright people....eevee is spot on. Weíve got to get this right.

Here is the final vote count...I think at least 2 scum are on Glooble. Maybe even all three. ADK and chairs are pretty high on my list.


Glooble (6): faust, Robz888, ADK, chairs, Eevee, Space
chairs (2): Glooble, WCD
Eevee (1): EFHW

Not Voting (2): Dylan, Galz

What changed your read on me from yesterday?

I think I tend to be a self aware player in general (see: this post) because that's just how I am. And didds's sudden pivot on me was noteworthy enough to potentially be scummy, so it was something worth discussing

Quote
or the way they deflect off Eevee in the following post:
I think Eevee has to be scum here.

1. opportunistic voting
2. amazingly towny posts (528 and 529) directly after I voted him (513), but not before or since.
3. Fake dismay about nk.
4. Suddenly giving advice to town, mostly the standard Day 3 things people say.
5. If I squint and look for the players who have not received attention, have not done much, yet have been around, Eevee pops out.
6. He was on the Joseph wagon.

This list reads like you decided to scumread eevee first and then came up with reasons after

I just want to point out that I was right about this

I'm running out of time before having to leave for work, so I might have more to say later. For now I guess I'm left supporting a chairs exile if y'all come to your sense and don't exile me

Oh, and btw I'm a VT since I got intent-to-hammered
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The perfect engine
But it will never go off
Three piles are empty

A Drowned Kernel

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 4
« Reply #797 on: October 19, 2020, 09:24:54 am »

Some of that post got swallowed up in quotes
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faust

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 4
« Reply #798 on: October 19, 2020, 09:40:22 am »

unvote

I at least want to see the rest of Galzria's work.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

faust

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 4
« Reply #799 on: October 19, 2020, 09:43:10 am »

Galzy, some of the posts you find scummy are just me trying to get better at forming and articulating reads. Itís a work in progress. In my last game, scum killed me early because I was active so Iíve been trying to be less rando, but you know me....I kind of live for the chatter.
So... you've been trying to be more lurky in order to avoid the nightkill?

The is so incredibly anti-town I don't even know what to say.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.
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