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Author Topic: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Game Over! Skum Wins!  (Read 19629 times)

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SpaceAnemone

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 2 Has Begun!
« Reply #550 on: October 07, 2020, 06:18:32 pm »

Sorry I've been a bit absent today! I'm super wiped out at the moment, but I'm here and reading.

I think faust's logic that either Glooble or someone on his four-person wagon near the end of D1 being scum is pretty solid, and I don't think Glooble is doing a very good job of defending against it or justifying his disagreement with comparable logic.

@faust, your actual assertion was that either Glooble is scum, or he's town with scum already voting there. Obviously you and I can be suspicious of each other for this. Is it time to consider ADK again? I had a residual townread from D1, but I notice you posted at #480 (i.e. well into D2) that you didn't like some of the stuff they were posting. Now you're pressuring Glooble a fair amount, but not ADK. Why the asymmetry there?

I also think Chairs is still looking a bit scummy, especially with that jump onto Galz the minute our IC mentions Galz's absence.

PPE 1: Didds also being tired and reading! Hi friend :-)
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Eevee

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 2 Has Begun!
« Reply #551 on: October 07, 2020, 06:30:06 pm »

Uh yeah, I can relate with the feeling of low energy and tiredness. I don't know if it's the fall coming (getting reaaaally dark in Finland), or the general hellscapiness of the world right now or what, but I've also been lately feeling like it's so difficult to find energy for anything, inluding things I love like playing games like this. Ugh!
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Glooble

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 2 Has Begun!
« Reply #552 on: October 07, 2020, 06:43:06 pm »

faust's case on me is bad. When I flip town, ya'll are going to have to decide if it's just wrong, or if it's intentionally manipulative.
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I think town!Glooble pointing to something as a scum tell and then shortly thereafter doing that thing is a lot more likely than scum!Glooble doing that.

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Glooble

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 2 Has Begun!
« Reply #553 on: October 07, 2020, 06:46:41 pm »

It's bad for the reasons EFHW and I have articulated- Dylan's case on Joseph was solid enough that it made following Robz on to me unappealing. Several potential scum had recently expressed townreads on me and swapping would have made them look suspicious. The case is a nothingburger.
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I think town!Glooble pointing to something as a scum tell and then shortly thereafter doing that thing is a lot more likely than scum!Glooble doing that.

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WestCoastDidds

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 2 Has Begun!
« Reply #554 on: October 07, 2020, 06:47:19 pm »

Glooble, what for your chum to scum list look like?

Eevee, the shorter days are a killer. And itís just starting! Ugh on the darkness.

Space, Hi!!

Glooble

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 2 Has Begun!
« Reply #555 on: October 07, 2020, 06:48:34 pm »

I personally don't know if this is the kind of bad case faust makes in good faith, for instance because he's relying on a maxim (scum will naturally want to follow the IC) without considering the context, or if this is a case scum!faust makes because it's easy to make it look good, but it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. That's for you to figure out after you exile me.

PPE: 1
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Glooble

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 2 Has Begun!
« Reply #556 on: October 07, 2020, 06:50:49 pm »

Scum:
chairs

Strong contenders:
ADK
faust

middle of the road:
Space
Didds
Dylan
Galz

lean town:
Eevee
EFHW

town:
Robz

Did I forget anyone?
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 2 Has Begun!
« Reply #557 on: October 07, 2020, 06:58:22 pm »

Ghost Galz is scum Galz.

vote: Galzria

This is empirically not true
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Dylan32

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 2 Has Begun!
« Reply #558 on: October 07, 2020, 08:34:06 pm »

Scum:
chairs

Strong contenders:
ADK
faust

middle of the road:
Space
Didds
Dylan
Galz

lean town:
Eevee
EFHW

town:
Robz

Did I forget anyone?

You've done a fair bit of talking about your scum reads, but what about Eevee and EFHW's games stand out as towny to you?
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Dylan32

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 2 Has Begun!
« Reply #559 on: October 07, 2020, 08:38:19 pm »

--snip--

@Glooble responding to earlier point:
I meant to say that it's scummy from faust and Galzria (especially Galzria!) to have been such a small factor this far, being how much they usually influence the game. It's not even about the activity level, just that they aren't really a big part of discussion in any way, although (my feel without rereading is) that faust has been coming to the center more. It's kind of a scum read borne from lack of towny evidence, if you will. For guys with their reputation, laying low early makes a lot of sense as scum, because it's tough to be the at the center of the attention for days on end and avoid the exile every time.

ugh... I was the one that questioned your faust and Galzria comment, not glooble. How did that happen again?!
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Dylan32

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 2 Has Begun!
« Reply #560 on: October 07, 2020, 08:39:35 pm »

Glooble has been active enough he doesn't need credit for my activity too haha
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Dylan32

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 2 Has Begun!
« Reply #561 on: October 07, 2020, 08:40:49 pm »

It's bad for the reasons EFHW and I have articulated- Dylan's case on Joseph was solid enough that it made following Robz on to me unappealing. Several potential scum had recently expressed townreads on me and swapping would have made them look suspicious. The case is a nothingburger.

It's not completely nothing burger, but it's not as good as I thought it was initially.

Unvote
for now
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Dylan32

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 2 Has Begun!
« Reply #562 on: October 07, 2020, 09:09:50 pm »

Oh man, I was just rereading D1, and saw a post by Joseph that I guess I just completely missed at the time, right after I corrected the list of 3 and voted EFHW. He gave a reason that glooble was towny aside from not being on that list, which is something I said he hadn't done later after his "that's why I wasn't on glooble" post that I thought was the lie. (Aside from the incredibly obvious "he flipped town," that case wasn't anywhere nearly as solid as several people acted like. So the people who went along with it without much feedback or independent thought get several scum points, while the people who said it wasn't that great get townpoints.
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Dylan32

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 2 Has Begun!
« Reply #563 on: October 07, 2020, 09:10:47 pm »

Oh man, I was just rereading D1, and saw a post by Joseph that I guess I just completely missed at the time, right after I corrected the list of 3 and voted EFHW. He gave a reason that glooble was towny aside from not being on that list, which is something I said he hadn't done later after his "that's why I wasn't on glooble" post that I thought was the lie. (Aside from the incredibly obvious "he flipped town,") that case wasn't anywhere nearly as solid as several people acted like. So the people who went along with it without much feedback or independent thought get several scum points, while the people who said it wasn't that great get townpoints.

edit: missing ")"
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faust

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 2 Has Begun!
« Reply #564 on: October 08, 2020, 02:36:05 am »

faust's case on me is bad. When I flip town, ya'll are going to have to decide if it's just wrong, or if it's intentionally manipulative.
Talk about being intentionally manipulative.
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faust

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 2 Has Begun!
« Reply #565 on: October 08, 2020, 02:37:03 am »

I personally don't know if this is the kind of bad case faust makes in good faith, for instance because he's relying on a maxim (scum will naturally want to follow the IC) without considering the context, or if this is a case scum!faust makes because it's easy to make it look good, but it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. That's for you to figure out after you exile me.

PPE: 1
Again strawmanning. I never said scum always want to follow the IC, I have considered the context.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

faust

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 2 Has Begun!
« Reply #566 on: October 08, 2020, 02:37:46 am »

Also, either a case looks good or it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. It can't be both.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

faust

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 2 Has Begun!
« Reply #567 on: October 08, 2020, 02:39:03 am »

And I find it hilarious that Glooble argues hard against the idea that scum would be on his wagon and then his scumreads are basically everyone on the Glooble wagon.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Glooble

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 2 Has Begun!
« Reply #568 on: October 08, 2020, 07:54:31 am »

Also, either a case looks good or it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. It can't be both.

You're willfully misunderstanding me. A case can look good if you just read it and then fall apart if you actually look at the context. Which is exactly what your case does. It's a good scum play if you're a player with a reputation for making good wagon-based cases, like faust is, because you can bank on people trusting you and being too lazy to check your work.
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I think town!Glooble pointing to something as a scum tell and then shortly thereafter doing that thing is a lot more likely than scum!Glooble doing that.

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Glooble

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 2 Has Begun!
« Reply #569 on: October 08, 2020, 07:55:29 am »

The main reason I'm finding EFHW townie is she *is* checking faust's work. She's analyzing other people's cases, supporting them with her own evidence, and making her own decisions.

Eevee is just a gut read.
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I think town!Glooble pointing to something as a scum tell and then shortly thereafter doing that thing is a lot more likely than scum!Glooble doing that.

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Eevee

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 2 Has Begun!
« Reply #570 on: October 08, 2020, 08:33:09 am »

Vote Count 2.3:
chairs (3): ADK, Glooble, Eevee
Glooble (3): chairs, faust, Robz888
Eevee (2): EFHW, WCD

Not Voting (3): Dylan, Galz, Space,


With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on October 9th at 6:15PM Forum Time.
Woah, the deadline is tomorrow!
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faust

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 2 Has Begun!
« Reply #571 on: October 08, 2020, 08:37:25 am »

Also, either a case looks good or it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. It can't be both.

You're willfully misunderstanding me. A case can look good if you just read it and then fall apart if you actually look at the context. Which is exactly what your case does. It's a good scum play if you're a player with a reputation for making good wagon-based cases, like faust is, because you can bank on people trusting you and being too lazy to check your work.
Evidently, I can't, so it's not.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Glooble

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 2 Has Begun!
« Reply #572 on: October 08, 2020, 08:40:39 am »

I personally don't know if this is the kind of bad case faust makes in good faith, for instance because he's relying on a maxim (scum will naturally want to follow the IC) without considering the context, or if this is a case scum!faust makes because it's easy to make it look good, but it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. That's for you to figure out after you exile me.

PPE: 1
Again strawmanning. I never said scum always want to follow the IC, I have considered the context.

Ok, again, this is for the rest of the town to consider when I'm dead.

I keep trying to summarize faust's case and faust keeps saying I'm strawmanning. So, one of three things is happening here:

1. I'm just not smart anough to understand what faust is saying
2. what faust is saying doesn't actually make sense
3. I'm scum trying to manipulate you

When I flip town, that will eliminate option 3. Hopefully, when faced with option 1 and option 2, you'll do the right thing and exile faust.
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I think town!Glooble pointing to something as a scum tell and then shortly thereafter doing that thing is a lot more likely than scum!Glooble doing that.

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Glooble

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 2 Has Begun!
« Reply #573 on: October 08, 2020, 08:45:10 am »

Actually, you know what?

vote: faust

Call it OMGUS if you want, but I don't buy town!faust doubling down on this ridiculous non-case. He's smarter than that. So the scum!faust narrative is the only one that works for me. The chairs wagon is stalled out anyway.
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Glooble

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Re: M132: Cats and Dogs Mafia - Day 2 Has Begun!
« Reply #574 on: October 08, 2020, 09:09:06 am »

Sorry if I'm coming off more confrontational than usual, I think that's just what happens when a person is targeted the entire game for no reason.
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I think town!Glooble pointing to something as a scum tell and then shortly thereafter doing that thing is a lot more likely than scum!Glooble doing that.

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