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Author Topic: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards  (Read 16493 times)

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silverspawn

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #50 on: December 16, 2020, 11:53:43 am »
+1

@Hanging Gardens: I don't think you should say 'you may' without reason. Exiling a card has on tracking issues, and you can just decide not to play it.

segura

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #51 on: December 16, 2020, 12:04:58 pm »
+1

@Hanging Gardens: I don't think you should say 'you may' without reason. Exiling a card has on tracking issues, and you can just decide not to play it.
First, there are forced play cards like Herald and Golem.
Second, what tracking issue? Everybody can see what card you Exile.
Third, Sanctuary.
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gambit05

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #52 on: December 16, 2020, 12:06:40 pm »
0

@Hanging Gardens: I don't think you should say 'you may' without reason. Exiling a card has on tracking issues, and you can just decide not to play it.

Not that it is really important for me to use "you may", but Sanctuary also has "you may". What would be the tracking issues?

Edit: segura summarized it better than I did. Thanks!
« Last Edit: December 16, 2020, 12:07:55 pm by gambit05 »
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silverspawn

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #53 on: December 16, 2020, 12:45:44 pm »
+1

The 'on' in my post was a misspelled 'no'. It has no tracking issues.

Sanctuary is different because you want to play it for the + card, so making the Exile mandatory would nerf the card significantly. (Which may actually be an improvement, but the point is, it's a big change.) Your card only exiles, so the situations in which it makes a difference are really rare. I don't think there is an existing card that says 'you may' just for the rare edge case where you flip it with a Herald or something.

LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #54 on: December 16, 2020, 12:52:16 pm »
+1

I like Doppelganger and Master Builder. Hanging Gardens looks pretty weak unless there is good support for it in the kingdom (another exiler and other trashing so you don't need to exile more than one Estate or Copper).

Yeah, not easy to find a good balance between the lower and upper ends for VP scoring. It should be attractive enough in most Kingdoms, but without being too crazy in too many cases.

I think I managed to keep the upper end craziness within limits, but as you pointed out it could be too weak in some cases. The idea was that if there is no trasher available, players can ignore VP scoring for Coppers and Estates and use Hanging Gardens primarily to get rid of (some of) them, and to focus more on Exiling other cards in single copies, e.g. Province, Duchy, Hanging Gardens, Silver. This alone would give 2VP and seems to be doable. One problem of course is the high opportunity cost of Hanging Gardens.

Maybe I add something to it. Two things come into my mind:
Either:
Quote
Choose one: Exile a card from your
hand; or +1 Action and +$1.
(or some other minor bonus).

or:
Quote
You may Exile a card from your hand.
If you do and you have at least one
Exiled copy of it, +$1.


Would that or something similar help?
Actually, I think I would leave it as-is except change the cost to $5.

segura

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #55 on: December 16, 2020, 01:34:32 pm »
+1

The 'on' in my post was a misspelled 'no'. It has no tracking issues.

Sanctuary is different because you want to play it for the + card, so making the Exile mandatory would nerf the card significantly. (Which may actually be an improvement, but the point is, it's a big change.) Your card only exiles, so the situations in which it makes a difference are really rare. I don't think there is an existing card that says 'you may' just for the rare edge case where you flip it with a Herald or something.
So what? It is not like there is any technical issue with it. It is like a very small buff that matters with cards like Herald and Golem and Ghost.
If Hanging Gardens has any problems, it is that it is too weak, not too strong. So why do you argue for nerfing it for no apparent reason?
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gambit05

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #56 on: December 16, 2020, 01:53:13 pm »
0

The 'on' in my post was a misspelled 'no'. It has no tracking issues.

Sanctuary is different because you want to play it for the + card, so making the Exile mandatory would nerf the card significantly. (Which may actually be an improvement, but the point is, it's a big change.) Your card only exiles, so the situations in which it makes a difference are really rare. I don't think there is an existing card that says 'you may' just for the rare edge case where you flip it with a Herald or something.
So what? It is not like there is any technical issue with it. It is like a very small buff that matters with cards like Herald and Golem and Ghost.
If Hanging Gardens has any problems, it is that it is too weak, not too strong. So why do you argue for nerfing it for no apparent reason?

No need to get heated over a Dominion Fan card. Let's be constructive. What do you think about my suggestions to make it stronger or about simply letting it cost $5 as LibraryAdventurer suggested? See below.


Maybe I add something to it. Two things come into my mind:
Either:
Quote
Choose one: Exile a card from your
hand; or +1 Action and +$1.
(or some other minor bonus).

or:
Quote
You may Exile a card from your hand.
If you do and you have at least one
Exiled copy of it, +$1.


Would that or something similar help?
Actually, I think I would leave it as-is except change the cost to $5.
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Timinou

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #57 on: December 16, 2020, 03:03:37 pm »
+1

Would it be too strong if Hanging Gardens allowed you to Exile two cards instead of one? 

Even if you lower the cost to $5,  you would need 6 different cards to be on your Exile mat for it to give the same amount of VP as a Duchy, which I think may be too much to make it attractive in most games. 
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gambit05

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #58 on: December 16, 2020, 03:18:40 pm »
0

Would it be too strong if Hanging Gardens allowed you to Exile two cards instead of one? 

Even if you lower the cost to $5,  you would need 6 different cards to be on your Exile mat for it to give the same amount of VP as a Duchy, which I think may be too much to make it attractive in most games.

This is an interesting alternative I haven't thought about. My gut feeling is that it is too strong. The Exiling function can be really helpful even if it is not (primarily) used for VP scoring. I've put the achievable lower end for VP scoring at 2 VP, i.e. 4 Exiled single copy cards. Thanks for your input!
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silverspawn

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #59 on: December 16, 2020, 03:39:39 pm »
0

The 'on' in my post was a misspelled 'no'. It has no tracking issues.

Sanctuary is different because you want to play it for the + card, so making the Exile mandatory would nerf the card significantly. (Which may actually be an improvement, but the point is, it's a big change.) Your card only exiles, so the situations in which it makes a difference are really rare. I don't think there is an existing card that says 'you may' just for the rare edge case where you flip it with a Herald or something.
So what? It is not like there is any technical issue with it. It is like a very small buff that matters with cards like Herald and Golem and Ghost.
If Hanging Gardens has any problems, it is that it is too weak, not too strong. So why do you argue for nerfing it for no apparent reason?

You may Exile a card is more complicated than Exile a card, which I think should matter a lot more than the difference in the effect.

segura

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #60 on: December 16, 2020, 04:45:09 pm »
0

The 'on' in my post was a misspelled 'no'. It has no tracking issues.

Sanctuary is different because you want to play it for the + card, so making the Exile mandatory would nerf the card significantly. (Which may actually be an improvement, but the point is, it's a big change.) Your card only exiles, so the situations in which it makes a difference are really rare. I don't think there is an existing card that says 'you may' just for the rare edge case where you flip it with a Herald or something.
So what? It is not like there is any technical issue with it. It is like a very small buff that matters with cards like Herald and Golem and Ghost.
If Hanging Gardens has any problems, it is that it is too weak, not too strong. So why do you argue for nerfing it for no apparent reason?

You may Exile a card is more complicated than Exile a card, which I think should matter a lot more than the difference in the effect.
Looks like you are grabbing for straws to justify an argument which has no sound basis after you got reminded that Hanging Gardens is worded precisely like Sanctuary.

The notion that "you may" is more complicated than "you must" is utterly ridiculous. What's next, Sanctuary is more complex than Possession?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2020, 04:46:48 pm by segura »
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silverspawn

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #61 on: December 16, 2020, 05:41:11 pm »
0

The 'on' in my post was a misspelled 'no'. It has no tracking issues.

Sanctuary is different because you want to play it for the + card, so making the Exile mandatory would nerf the card significantly. (Which may actually be an improvement, but the point is, it's a big change.) Your card only exiles, so the situations in which it makes a difference are really rare. I don't think there is an existing card that says 'you may' just for the rare edge case where you flip it with a Herald or something.
So what? It is not like there is any technical issue with it. It is like a very small buff that matters with cards like Herald and Golem and Ghost.
If Hanging Gardens has any problems, it is that it is too weak, not too strong. So why do you argue for nerfing it for no apparent reason?

You may Exile a card is more complicated than Exile a card, which I think should matter a lot more than the difference in the effect.
Looks like you are grabbing for straws to justify an argument which has no sound basis after you got reminded that Hanging Gardens is worded precisely like Sanctuary.

No; I haven't changed what I'm arguing for. I think Sanctuary is a complete non-sequitor.

"Exile a card" is simpler than "You may exile a card". "You must" doesn't appear on the card.

To give you some perspective, Donald X said that his biggest regret about Guilds is that Soothsayer says "each other player gains a curse; each player who did draws a card" rather than "each other player gains a curse and draws a card" because the second is simpler. I wouldn't go quite that far, but I definitely think that in this case, simplicity wins out.

Honestly, I think it's a no-brainer. And more than that, it's a design principle of dominion, not unlike having no terminal +1 Card. Official cards don't say 'you may' unless there's a good reason. Consider Forager, Research, Trade Route, Bounty Hunter, Scrap, Remodel, Remake, Sacrifice, Replace, Stonemason, and the list isn't even complete. All of those cards exile or trash a card, and then get some benefit, but don't produce resources if they don't trash a card. For all of them, trashing is mandatory. Now consider Goatherd, Sanctuary, Butcher,  Upgrade, Rats. Those also trash a card, but there, you have a reason to play them, so whether or not they say 'you may' changes the power level. For those cards, it's 'you may' or not you may, depending on what makes sense power-level wise. Then, there is a third group where they have to say 'you may' for tracking issues, like Pooka.

I don't think there is a single official card that violates this principle.

segura

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #62 on: December 17, 2020, 02:08:23 am »
0

The 'on' in my post was a misspelled 'no'. It has no tracking issues.

Sanctuary is different because you want to play it for the + card, so making the Exile mandatory would nerf the card significantly. (Which may actually be an improvement, but the point is, it's a big change.) Your card only exiles, so the situations in which it makes a difference are really rare. I don't think there is an existing card that says 'you may' just for the rare edge case where you flip it with a Herald or something.
So what? It is not like there is any technical issue with it. It is like a very small buff that matters with cards like Herald and Golem and Ghost.
If Hanging Gardens has any problems, it is that it is too weak, not too strong. So why do you argue for nerfing it for no apparent reason?

You may Exile a card is more complicated than Exile a card, which I think should matter a lot more than the difference in the effect.
Looks like you are grabbing for straws to justify an argument which has no sound basis after you got reminded that Hanging Gardens is worded precisely like Sanctuary.

No; I haven't changed what I'm arguing for. I think Sanctuary is a complete non-sequitor.

"Exile a card" is simpler than "You may exile a card". "You must" doesn't appear on the card.
That is true, "you must" is not a wording in Dominion. But in common English this is meant, normally all stuff in Dominion is mandatory. If something is non-mandatory that is not more complex.
The only argument for complexity is that it is unusual, that a non-mandatory effect occurs rarely and surprises you.

Here we get back to Sancturary. In my opinion it is not more complex because it is non-mandatory.

You argued WHY Sancturay is non-mandatory and I totally agree with those reasons. I also agree that it is less necessary for Hanging Gardens. But necessity and usefulness is no the issue we discuss. It is complexity and I never heard anybody except for you claim that a card with a non-mandatory effect like Sanctuary is complex
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silverspawn

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #63 on: December 17, 2020, 04:00:20 am »
0

I had also never heard about it when I posted the first version of my fan expansion to this forum, which had "you may"s everywhere, but I believe it was pointed out in the first comment.

gambit05

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #64 on: December 17, 2020, 04:16:26 am »
+1

Can we all agree that:
1) "You may" on the presented version of Hanging Gardens shouldn't be used.
2) Hanging Gardens is weak as it is.
3) The top priority should be to improve the card.
4) Details of wording is secondarily; it might be even obsolete after 3).
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segura

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #65 on: December 17, 2020, 04:32:10 am »
+1

I'd try it at $5. It takes quite some work to push it into 6 single Exiled cards Duchy territory so it really should be OK at $5. I don't see anything else. If you work on the effect instead of the price, it becomes a monster at a "1 single Exiled card = 1 VP" ratio; and 3 for 2 would be a weird ratio.
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gambit05

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #66 on: December 17, 2020, 04:38:28 am »
0

I'd try it at $5. It takes quite some work to push it into 6 single Exiled cards Duchy territory so it really should be OK at $5. I don't see anything else. If you work on the effect instead of the price, it becomes a monster at a "1 single Exiled card = 1 VP" ratio; and 3 for 2 would be a weird ratio.

Many thanks! I don't want to touch the below the line instructions. I have thought about this for quite a while and I am happy with it. However, there are other possibilities for on-play effects as I have pointed out above.
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Carline

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #67 on: December 17, 2020, 06:30:57 pm »
+1

The 'on' in my post was a misspelled 'no'. It has no tracking issues.

Sanctuary is different because you want to play it for the + card, so making the Exile mandatory would nerf the card significantly. (Which may actually be an improvement, but the point is, it's a big change.) Your card only exiles, so the situations in which it makes a difference are really rare. I don't think there is an existing card that says 'you may' just for the rare edge case where you flip it with a Herald or something.
So what? It is not like there is any technical issue with it. It is like a very small buff that matters with cards like Herald and Golem and Ghost.
If Hanging Gardens has any problems, it is that it is too weak, not too strong. So why do you argue for nerfing it for no apparent reason?

You may Exile a card is more complicated than Exile a card, which I think should matter a lot more than the difference in the effect.
Looks like you are grabbing for straws to justify an argument which has no sound basis after you got reminded that Hanging Gardens is worded precisely like Sanctuary.

No; I haven't changed what I'm arguing for. I think Sanctuary is a complete non-sequitor.

"Exile a card" is simpler than "You may exile a card". "You must" doesn't appear on the card.

To give you some perspective, Donald X said that his biggest regret about Guilds is that Soothsayer says "each other player gains a curse; each player who did draws a card" rather than "each other player gains a curse and draws a card" because the second is simpler. I wouldn't go quite that far, but I definitely think that in this case, simplicity wins out.

Honestly, I think it's a no-brainer. And more than that, it's a design principle of dominion, not unlike having no terminal +1 Card. Official cards don't say 'you may' unless there's a good reason. Consider Forager, Research, Trade Route, Bounty Hunter, Scrap, Remodel, Remake, Sacrifice, Replace, Stonemason, and the list isn't even complete. All of those cards exile or trash a card, and then get some benefit, but don't produce resources if they don't trash a card. For all of them, trashing is mandatory. Now consider Goatherd, Sanctuary, Butcher,  Upgrade, Rats. Those also trash a card, but there, you have a reason to play them, so whether or not they say 'you may' changes the power level. For those cards, it's 'you may' or not you may, depending on what makes sense power-level wise. Then, there is a third group where they have to say 'you may' for tracking issues, like Pooka.

I don't think there is a single official card that violates this principle.

What about Mine, Moneylender, Spice Merchant, Taxman and Zombie Apprentice?
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silverspawn

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #68 on: December 17, 2020, 06:49:27 pm »
0

What about Mine, Moneylender, Spice Merchant, Taxman and Zombie Apprentice?

All five in the third group (along with Pooka). They require you to trash a card with a specific type, so if it were mandatory, it would introduce tracking issues. (There's no way for your opponent to tell whether you have a Treasure card in hand.)

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #69 on: December 17, 2020, 07:12:47 pm »
+1

What about Mine, Moneylender, Spice Merchant, Taxman and Zombie Apprentice?

All five in the third group (along with Pooka). They require you to trash a card with a specific type, so if it were mandatory, it would introduce tracking issues. (There's no way for your opponent to tell whether you have a Treasure card in hand.)

It explains why these are voluntary (it's in 2nd edition Secret History), but doesn't implies that others can't be voluntary if you want them to.

Treasurer, Mercenary? (Sorry, I'm trying to understand the principle you claim is valid to all cards, it's not clear to me).
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LastFootnote

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #70 on: December 17, 2020, 11:40:06 pm »
0

What about Mine, Moneylender, Spice Merchant, Taxman and Zombie Apprentice?

All five in the third group (along with Pooka). They require you to trash a card with a specific type, so if it were mandatory, it would introduce tracking issues. (There's no way for your opponent to tell whether you have a Treasure card in hand.)

It's an accountability issue, not a tracking issue.
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silverspawn

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #71 on: December 18, 2020, 04:22:16 am »
0

I'm saying that, among official cards, you may is only included if there is a good reason. One possible reason is tracking issues, another is if you have a reason to play the card even if you don't trash anything, in which case it becomes a question of powerlevel. Essentially, it has to give you something other than + 1 action.

The reason to play mercenary without trashing anything is to activate urchins.

gambit05

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #72 on: December 18, 2020, 04:52:08 am »
0

I'm saying that, among official cards, you may is only included if there is a good reason. One possible reason is tracking issues, another is if you have a reason to play the card even if you don't trash anything, in which case it becomes a question of powerlevel. Essentially, it has to give you something other than + 1 action.

The reason to play mercenary without trashing anything is to activate urchins.

It is not exactly the scenario that is discussed here, but Dame Anna says "You may trash up to 2 cards from your hand". Since "up to 2" includes 0, it could be "Trash up to 2 cards...". I guess it isn't this way, because some players would be panicking, as they may think that trashing is mandatory.
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silverspawn

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #73 on: December 18, 2020, 05:04:49 am »
0

Yeah. I had exactly that choice to make for Temple Garden and I also went with 'you may' for the same reason, even though I would read 'Exchange any number ...' to be identical since 'any number' includes 0.

gambit05

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #74 on: December 18, 2020, 05:17:08 am »
0

Yeah. I had exactly that choice to make for Temple Garden and I also went with 'you may' for the same reason, even though I would read 'Exchange any number ...' to be identical since 'any number' includes 0.

Funny thing is that already Chapel from the Base game has the wording "Trash up to 4 cards from your hand". The best explanation for this difference, if it is intended, is that Chapel just has this one sentence, so people can digest this information quickly, whereas Dame Anne gives a lot more to think about.
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