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Author Topic: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards  (Read 1058 times)

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gambit05

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Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« on: September 15, 2020, 11:26:13 am »
+2

My goal is to create a set of Fan cards in the size of a full expansion. I have been working on various mechanics and concepts, mainly over the past few months, although some ideas are several years old now.
 
The theme
It is roughly about Tales and Stories. Some cards try to reference a tale, story or fable, although in some cases in such a subtle way that a particular story is difficult to identify.

The mechanics
Some cards combine or extend some of the existing mechanics in new ways, e.g. cards with changing costs. In the near future I would like to introduce some new mechanics such as Chaplain tokens for trashing and Equipment cards. The latter come in single copies, like Shelters and Heirlooms, but enter the players decks later in the game after some basic requirements are met.

Cards telling a story
A few cards try to reference certain tales or stories more closely; as they are rather more complex, I do not intend to include them in my Fan made set for regular gaming, except when something turns out to fit very well. The first such card I presented recently is Rumpelstiltskin.

Simple cards
While designing cards with fancy and novel mechanics can be a lot of fun, having too many of them can be quite painful in a real game. Thus, I think that a substantial number of cards should be relatively simple. I would like to present those here, starting with the three Action cards Hunter, Gatehouse and Merry Men:

New versions after feedback (19.Sept.2020):



Hunter
$2 – Action
Quote
+2 Actions
 When you play the next Action card this   
turn, for each +$1 it produced, take
+1 Coffers instead.
Gatehouse
$5 – Action
Quote
+1 Card
+2 Actions

Reveal your hand. The player to your
  left chooses one card that you discard.   
+2 Cards
Merry Men
$4 – Action
Quote
+2 Cards
+1 Buy

You may play an Action card from your
hand. If you do, Exile it if you have another
copy of it in play.

Original versions:



Hunter
$2 – Action
Quote
+1 Action
You may play an Action card from your hand.
For each +$1 it produced, take +1 Coffers
instead.
     
Gatehouse
$3 – Action
Quote
+2 Actions
You may reveal your hand. If you do,
the player to your left chooses one card.
Discard it, for +2 Cards.
Merry Men
$5 – Action
Quote
+2 Cards
+1 Buy
You may play an Action card from your
hand. If you do, Exile it if you have any
copies of it in play.

Hunter. Allows playing a card without using an Action. If that card provides an Action, Hunter effectively turns to a Necropolis. If it’s a terminal card, the player still has an Action from Hunter. If it produces +$, Hunter converts them to Coffers.

Gatehouse. To separate the wheat from the chaff; unfortunately your opponent is the bouncer. Only junk cards in your hand? Sure no problem, go for it. Expecting better cards in your deck? Might be worth it. Already a key card in your hand? Better play it or even better, play it before Gatehouse.

Merry Men. Similar to Imp, but with the possibility to play a card that already has copies in play, although with the caveat that it will be Exiled. Perhaps, you want to gain another copy anyway.


→  Part 2
« Last Edit: September 23, 2020, 03:11:28 pm by gambit05 »
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Gubump

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2020, 12:25:14 pm »
+2

Hunter: "You may play an Action card from your hand" is effectively the same as +1 Action (except if you have Diadem). Hunter is actually a Necropolis regardless of the terminality of the played card (play a non-terminal, and you have 2 Actions remaining, same with Necropolis. Play a terminal, and you have 1 Action left, same with Necropolis).

Merry Men: As currently worded, this will always Exile the played card (unless the played card is a one-shot). This is because "Exile it if you have any copies of it in play" triggers after having played the card, at which point the played card will be a copy you have in play. My suggested wording: "You may play an Action card from your hand. If you do, Exile it if you have another copy of it in play." That said, even if this card worked as intended, this is a Lab that gives +1 Buy in exchange for a major drawback, at the same price as a Lab. The drawback is too severe to make up for a measly +1 Buy.
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segura

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2020, 02:18:45 pm »
+2

Gatehouse looks inferior to Village to me. You discard the best card and draw two average cards. I doubt that this "card quality" element is compensated for by the cycling.
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Jonatan Djurachkovitch

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2020, 05:51:39 am »
+1

Hunter is just a card from the outtakes from Renaissance. Donald X removed it because it gave too many coffers. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19203.0
"Another village converted +$ to +Coffers for your next card played. Large amounts of +Coffers are trouble."

Did you take the card idea from there, or was this incidental?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 05:55:43 am by Jonatan Djurachkovitch »
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gambit05

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2020, 07:39:36 am »
0


First of all, many thanks to you all for your feedback and suggestions.

Hunter: "You may play an Action card from your hand" is effectively the same as +1 Action (except if you have Diadem). Hunter is actually a Necropolis regardless of the terminality of the played card (play a non-terminal, and you have 2 Actions remaining, same with Necropolis. Play a terminal, and you have 1 Action left, same with Necropolis).

Hunter was originally a Reserve card that could be called upon playing an Action card for the $ to Coffer conversion. I found that less interesting as it could be more easily paired with cards producing +$3 or so, if available in the Kingdom. It then transformed to the current version, and instead of calling it, I gave it +1 Action for compensation. Although I realized that it turned into a Necropolis this way, I haven’t changed the text appropriately. So, the card text would be something like:

Hunter
$2 – Action
Quote
+2 Actions
When you play the next Action card this turn,
for each +$1 it produced, take
+1 Coffers instead.



Quote
Merry Men: As currently worded, this will always Exile the played card (unless the played card is a one-shot). This is because "Exile it if you have any copies of it in play" triggers after having played the card, at which point the played card will be a copy you have in play. My suggested wording: "You may play an Action card from your hand. If you do, Exile it if you have another copy of it in play."

Is a card a copy of itself? No need to argue about it as the change is literally just a single word.

Quote
That said, even if this card worked as intended, this is a Lab that gives +1 Buy in exchange for a major drawback, at the same price as a Lab. The drawback is too severe to make up for a measly +1 Buy.
You are probably correct, although Lab is a quite strong $5 cost card, and +1 Buy is sometimes rare in Kingdoms and Merry Men could be especially bought for that. Anyway, I'll likely reduce the cost to $4; the question then is, with or without +1 Buy (although probably not too critical for balancing this card)?

Gatehouse looks inferior to Village to me. You discard the best card and draw two average cards. I doubt that this "card quality" element is compensated for by the cycling.

I compared Gatehouse mainly with Shanty Town (and a pinch of Minion). My thinking was that if a player goes for Gatehouse, they should have less terminal cards in their deck; also, compared to Village, draw to X can become more attractive. I addition, when Actions are desperately needed, players will buy Gatehouse; and maybe in some Big Money decks too. The ideal scenario is that after Gatehouse is played, only junk or mediocre cards are left in hand. Gatehouse has a potential ranging from Necropolis to almost Lost City; a feature Village doesn’t have. With a key card in hand, there is always the option to play it instead of revealing the hand. So, I still think Gatehouse should cost $3, just for its potential.

Hunter is just a card from the outtakes from Renaissance. Donald X removed it because it gave too many coffers. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19203.0
"Another village converted +$ to +Coffers for your next card played. Large amounts of +Coffers are trouble."

Did you take the card idea from there, or was this incidental?

That is interesting. I didn’t know about Donald’s outtake card; I usually don’t read that part of his Histories or at most once and that must have been almost 2 years ago. So, it looks like I came up with the idea independently.

But with this information in mind, is the card playable? Donald has mentioned that getting too many Coffers causes trouble; my reasoning was that there are only a few Action cards that produce +$3 or more and the $ are converted to Coffers; thus the money output remains the same, just the flexibility to spend it increases. I also considered Swashbuckler, which has the clause of needing 4 or more Coffers to take the Treasure Chest, and I concluded that it can’t be too bad to hoard some Coffer tokens via Hunter.
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segura

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2020, 01:33:19 pm »
+1

Why would I buy Gatehouse if I have few terminals / play money?
You discard your best card to draw 2 average cards. That is never ever something that makes any sense; it is like inverted sifting.

There is a reason that the only target discard Attack in the game is a one-shot: discarding you’re best card is super nasty.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2020, 01:57:04 pm »
+3

Simply comparing Gatehouse to Village; playing either one leaves you with the same hand-size and 1 extra action. (Ignoring the option to play Gatehouse as just Necropolis, because is just playing a very, very weak card).

The difference were simply between "draw 1" and "discard your best card, draw 2". There is almost no situation when the second one is better, and it's usually way worse. Your entire hand has to be junk in order to want that effect. If you have even a single action card or treasure better than Copper in your hand, then the effect is worse than Village. The best you can hope for is to get lucky and draw 2 good equally good cards to replace the 1 you lost.

It might work at , but would still be generally weak I think.
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gambit05

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2020, 03:03:02 pm »
0

I may totally misjudge the abilities of Gatehouse, but I just don't understand your reasoning.

First of all, I think you just cannot ignore the situation when Gatehouse will be played just as a Necropolis; this is part of the range of the cards ability (the weakest ability obviously). For example, if you have a Hunting Grounds in your hand, you don't use the "loose your best card, get 2 cards whatever it is", but you are happy to play Hunting Grounds and have an Action left after all the drawing. Note, this is the worst case scenario.

What do you think about cards like Shanty Town and Menagerie? You want to get to a situation where they get their boni, but you can't get there every time. If you would, they would need to cost ~$6. Thus, such cards have a potential of high reward, but with some risk that you don't always get it.
Similar with Gatehouse: First of all (just like Shanty Town and Menagerie) you want to play cards from your hand in a way that the scenarios with a higher reward are more likely. This means you try to play the good cards before you play Gatehouse.
After that there are several scenarios.
1) Just junk left in your hand, i.e. all the good cards have been played: No problem to play Gatehouse and to reveal your hand.
2) Playing all the good cards didn't work perfectly, i.e. a couple of good card are left in your hand. Despite some bad luck, I would count that as bad deck composition. Anyway, revealing the hand is an option, though not necessarily the best, which also depends on the quality of the deck.
3) Just one excellent card left in your hand. Don't reveal your hand. Gatehouse is a Necropolis this round, but quite likely you play a terminal card with it.

Having said that, if Gatehouse is part of the deck, I would avoid too many terminals as it is difficult to play them before Gatehouse.
segura mentioned Pillage and that only this official card has the ability to discard a card from the hands of the opponents. However, the situation is quite different as the player attacks a full hand of 5 or more cards of opponents who have no choice but to reveal their full hands.

Despite all this arguing, many thanks to both of you for your efforts and feedback. As I said, I may just evaluate the strength of Gatehouse the wrong way.

Edit: I forgot to ask, what do you think about a version where all, but one card, are revealed?

« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 03:11:38 pm by gambit05 »
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segura

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2020, 05:34:31 pm »
0

You always emphasize that you can just use the card as Necro without going into how bad that actually is. Any draw engine needs to combo splitters and drawers, and if you are forced to always play the card as Necro, that is miles worse than having Squire, Fishing Village, Villa or any other non-drawing village.
All these cards suffer from not being able to draw (decreases consistency and this the chance to match drawers and splitters) but at least they all provide some Coins or Buys. Necro does not and Necro+Smithy does only half the job as Village+Smithy does (plus the aforementioned matching Problem that even applies when you have a pretty good non-drawing village like Festival).

I simply don’t get your argument. This is pretty simple: either it is a Necro which is super bad or it is worse than Village (discard your best, draw two average cards). Optionality is usually worth something but here it is not as the options are additive.

You claimed that you should not add terminals to decks with Gatehouse ... but why would you then want a Village (that decreases the average card quality) in the first place?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 05:36:25 pm by segura »
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silverspawn

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2020, 05:45:23 pm »
0

Gatehouse is very strong.
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gambit05

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2020, 05:54:39 pm »
0

You always emphasize that you can just use the card as Necro without going into how bad that actually is. Any draw engine needs to combo splitters and drawers, and if you are forced to always play the card as Necro, that is miles worse than having Squire, Fishing Village, Villa or any other non-drawing village.
All these cards suffer from not being able to draw (decreases consistency and this the chance to match drawers and splitters) but at least they all provide some Coins or Buys. Necro does not and Necro+Smithy does only half the job as Village+Smithy does (plus the aforementioned matching Problem that even applies when you have a pretty good non-drawing village like Festival).

I simply don’t get your argument. This is pretty simple: either it is a Necro which is super bad or it is worse than Village (discard your best, draw two average cards). Optionality is usually worth something but here it is not as the options are additive.

You claimed that you should not add terminals to decks with Gatehouse ... but why would you then want a Village (that decreases the average card quality) in the first place?

No. You just cannot pick the extreme case I mentioned and then say, I emphasize it. What I have said is that you shouldn't ignore the possibility. I don't know whether the card works as it is, maybe not, and I have mentioned my uncertainty about it before. However, you also ignore the best case scenario; that is that there is no best card to discard because it has been already played. I think this is the critical point of the card. How often can a player manipulate their hand to reach this point.
Also, I haven't claimed that no terminal cards should be added; just that the player has to be more careful, i.e. adding less to their deck

Anyway, what do you think about the suggestion to reveal all, but one card? Would that work?


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gambit05

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2020, 05:57:39 pm »
0

Gatehouse is very strong.

This comes as a surprise. If it is not irony, could you try to explain?
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2020, 11:48:52 pm »
+3

I think Gatehouse is a cool concept, but agree with others that you would never buy it over village. With village, you walk away with 5 average cards. With Gatehouse, you get (2 average)+(3 worst of 4), which is just worse than 5 average. Saying "but you can also use it as a Necro" doesn't address the problem, because both cases are worse than Village. It would be like if you had a card that cost $3 and said "choose one: +2 actions, or +1 card, +1 action", and then cited the flexibility as a reason to prefer it over Village.

If it drew 3 instead of 2 it would probably work, though it might have to cost more then. At that point it would be like a more extreme version of advisor, but also a village.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2020, 12:11:34 am »
+1

I agree with gambit05 that Gatehouse isn't quite as bad as people are making it out to be, and I think it's probably fine at $3. It might be better to think of it as three possibilities instead of 2:
1) Necropolis
2) discard your best card and draw 2
3) discard an average card and draw 2 -this happens whenever you don't have any good cards in hand, or if the best card you have in hand is a terminal that you have multiple copies of in hand, or if your hand is something like Copper Copper Silver Silver, or if your hand is full of cards that are so good that you can easily draw back whatever you discard, etc.

EDIT:
Anyway, what do you think about the suggestion to reveal all, but one card? Would that work?
I think that would be a good idea.
(...Despite what I just said about Gatehouse being fine at $3. Without that change, it would be a pretty weak $3.)
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 02:36:16 am by LibraryAdventurer »
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segura

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2020, 12:45:46 am »
0

You always emphasize that you can just use the card as Necro without going into how bad that actually is. Any draw engine needs to combo splitters and drawers, and if you are forced to always play the card as Necro, that is miles worse than having Squire, Fishing Village, Villa or any other non-drawing village.
All these cards suffer from not being able to draw (decreases consistency and this the chance to match drawers and splitters) but at least they all provide some Coins or Buys. Necro does not and Necro+Smithy does only half the job as Village+Smithy does (plus the aforementioned matching Problem that even applies when you have a pretty good non-drawing village like Festival).

I simply don’t get your argument. This is pretty simple: either it is a Necro which is super bad or it is worse than Village (discard your best, draw two average cards). Optionality is usually worth something but here it is not as the options are additive.

You claimed that you should not add terminals to decks with Gatehouse ... but why would you then want a Village (that decreases the average card quality) in the first place?

No. You just cannot pick the extreme case I mentioned and then say, I emphasize it. What I have said is that you shouldn't ignore the possibility. I don't know whether the card works as it is, maybe not, and I have mentioned my uncertainty about it before. However, you also ignore the best case scenario; that is that there is no best card to discard because it has been already played. I think this is the critical point of the card. How often can a player manipulate their hand to reach this point.
Also, I haven't claimed that no terminal cards should be added; just that the player has to be more careful, i.e. adding less to their deck

Anyway, what do you think about the suggestion to reveal all, but one card? Would that work?

Why would I want to „manipulate my hand“ such that I have only bad cards in order to undo that via playing Gatehouse? Anti-sifting?
What you seem to have in mind is some unthinned deck with Gatehouses and some terminal Silvers like Mountebank or whatever. Well, you gotta be lucky to play Gatehouse, draw into Mountebank, play Gatehouse and so on. Shanty Town is far better suited for that job.

If I have to be „careful“ about adding terminals to my deck when I buy a splitter, there is something seriously wrong with this very splitter. It is like buying a screwdriver that comes with the disclaimer that you should be careful about using it on too many screws.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 12:52:43 am by segura »
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Jonatan Djurachkovitch

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2020, 01:54:11 am »
+1

Imagine I have a hand of 2x Gatehouse, one Mandarin, a Library and a copper.
Play Gatehouse (don't reveal)
Play Mandarin (topdeck Library)
Play Gatehouse (opponent discards Copper)
Play Library

This is one of the best scenarios I could find.

Then imagine this hand:
Gatehouse, Copper, 2x Silver, Gold

In this scenario you won't play Gatehouse.
Gatehouse can be good with virtual coin, and especially Mandarin, which lets you save a card. The only way this was better than Village was that it freed up a slot for Library by discarding the Copper. This situation is so rare that I would still prefer a Village.

EDIT:
I guess it is pretty good in a hand of all Tunnels too.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 04:14:38 am by Jonatan Djurachkovitch »
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gambit05

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2020, 04:02:14 am »
+1

I agree with gambit05 that Gatehouse isn't quite as bad as people are making it out to be, and I think it's probably fine at $3. It might be better to think of it as three possibilities instead of 2:
1) Necropolis
2) discard your best card and draw 2
3) discard an average card and draw 2 -this happens whenever you don't have any good cards in hand, or if the best card you have in hand is a terminal that you have multiple copies of in hand, or if your hand is something like Copper Copper Silver Silver, or if your hand is full of cards that are so good that you can easily draw back whatever you discard, etc.

This comes pretty close to what I have tried to explain in a wall of text. Thanks for giving a much easier summary.

Quote
EDIT:
Anyway, what do you think about the suggestion to reveal all, but one card? Would that work?
I think that would be a good idea.
(...Despite what I just said about Gatehouse being fine at $3. Without that change, it would be a pretty weak $3.)

My intention was to have a Village that is on average rather weak, but can shine in certain situations. Considering the feedback so far, I tend to go for the "reveal all, but one" version.
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gambit05

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2020, 04:10:09 am »
0

It is like buying a screwdriver that comes with the disclaimer that you should be careful about using it on too many screws.

I prefer the analogy to a car. It could be a sports car, driving full speed on a highway, no cops around; slows down when cops are in sight, or when driving through a sharp turn. Or compare it with an off-road car. No chance to overtake the sports car, but wait until they have to drive through rough terrain.
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gambit05

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2020, 04:23:36 am »
0

Imagine I have a hand of 2x Gatehouse, one Mandarin, a Library and a copper.
Play Gatehouse (don't reveal)
Play Mandarin (topdeck Library)
Play Gatehouse (opponent discards Copper)
Play Library

This is one of the best scenarios I could find.

Then imagine this hand:
Gatehouse, Copper, 2x Silver, Gold

In this scenario you won't play Gatehouse.
Gatehouse can be good with virtual coin, and especially Mandarin, which lets you save a card. The only way this was better than Village was that it freed up a slot for Library by discarding the Copper. This situation is so rare that I would still prefer a Village.

Giving examples may help to understand the abilities of Gatehouse. Your first example with Mandarin looks a bit exotic; so lets replace it with another terminal +$3, e.g. Livery:



Now consider 3 scenarios.
1. Hand represents deck composition (drawing likely won’t give a stronger card).
2. Hand is better than deck on average (drawing of mediocre cards most likely).
3. Hand is worse than deck on average (good chance for drawing a strong card).

How would you play?
Would Gatehouse always be a weak card (in general and compared to Village)?
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segura

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2020, 11:48:50 am »
0

I don’t get the example as you would have to use Gatehouse twice as Necropolis. That is beyond bad (Necro would obviously be too weak at any price as Kingdom card) and ironically this occurs in a situation in which Gatehouse is supposed to shine.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2020, 12:17:38 pm »
+1

I think it is misleading to talk about individual hands where you might use Gatehouse's ability. It is possible to construct a particular hand where Gatehouse is preferable to Village. But the problem is it's hard to imagine a deck that will give you those hands with any kind of consistency. In particular, the challenge is to imagine a deck where (2 average)+(3 worst of 4) is consistently better than/at least as good as (5 average). If no such deck exists, then you will never buy Gatehouse over Village.

The only way I can imagine that (2 average)+(3 worst of 4) will consistently be better than (5 average) is if either 1. you are manipulating bad cards into your hand, or 2. you are manipulating good cards into your draw pile. (1) sounds silly, though maybe you could argue that's what advisor, or getting hit by pillages, does. More plausibly, maybe your deck is loaded with non-terminals, so that you can play them all before your Gatehouse, then play your Gatehouse to discard terminal payload and draw more non-terminals. Then you are "manipulating" your good cards out of your hand by playing them. This is probably the strongest use case for Gatehouse. (2) could happen with things like Inn, Cartographer, Apothecary, etc.

I think I've convinced myself that Gatehouse is actually not strictly worse than Village as I had originally thought; I could imagine preferring it to Village on a board that is constructed to make me prefer it to Village. I still think it is very weak though, but I'm open to being proven wrong.
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gambit05

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2020, 12:40:49 pm »
0

I don’t get the example as you would have to use Gatehouse twice as Necropolis. That is beyond bad (Necro would obviously be too weak at any price as Kingdom card) and ironically this occurs in a situation in which Gatehouse is supposed to shine.

Generally I like your feedback on cards and your sharp style of criticism. Sometimes however, I have the feeling that you act too much like a bull terrier, too much focused on biting your opponents hand. I haven't shown this example to prove that Gateway can shine, but rather to exchange a card with an exotic ability (Mandarin) for one without the same ability of giving +$3 (Livery), in order to start a discussion about its features from that point on. Anyway, while all this may sound harsh, I am still enjoying discussing my cards. Before you bite my card again, please have a look on what I have already considered for changes before.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 01:20:53 pm by gambit05 »
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gambit05

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2020, 12:58:09 pm »
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I think it is misleading to talk about individual hands where you might use Gatehouse's ability. It is possible to construct a particular hand where Gatehouse is preferable to Village. But the problem is it's hard to imagine a deck that will give you those hands with any kind of consistency. In particular, the challenge is to imagine a deck where (2 average)+(3 worst of 4) is consistently better than/at least as good as (5 average). If no such deck exists, then you will never buy Gatehouse over Village.

The only way I can imagine that (2 average)+(3 worst of 4) will consistently be better than (5 average) is if either 1. you are manipulating bad cards into your hand, or 2. you are manipulating good cards into your draw pile. (1) sounds silly, though maybe you could argue that's what advisor, or getting hit by pillages, does. More plausibly, maybe your deck is loaded with non-terminals, so that you can play them all before your Gatehouse, then play your Gatehouse to discard terminal payload and draw more non-terminals. Then you are "manipulating" your good cards out of your hand by playing them. This is probably the strongest use case for Gatehouse. (2) could happen with things like Inn, Cartographer, Apothecary, etc.

I think I've convinced myself that Gatehouse is actually not strictly worse than Village as I had originally thought; I could imagine preferring it to Village on a board that is constructed to make me prefer it to Village. I still think it is very weak though, but I'm open to being proven wrong.

I think you have grasped what my intention for the card was. I don't want to stress this too much, but just as a side note, I already had an alternative version in mind (replies #7 and 16).
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silverspawn

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2020, 03:37:49 pm »
+1

Gatehouse is very strong.

This comes as a surprise. If it is not irony, could you try to explain?

Yes. I read 'discard a card; draw two cards' and my brain concluded it increased your hand size.

My bad, but actually the hypothetical card is more interesting. Gatehouse should be +1 Card, +2 Actions, reveal your hand [...]. Increasing your hand size but having the mandatory drawback. As-is, yeah it's a worse village.
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gambit05

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Re: Tales & Stories: Some "simple" cards
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2020, 08:28:51 am »
+1

Gatehouse is very strong.

This comes as a surprise. If it is not irony, could you try to explain?

Yes. I read 'discard a card; draw two cards' and my brain concluded it increased your hand size.

My bad, but actually the hypothetical card is more interesting. Gatehouse should be +1 Card, +2 Actions, reveal your hand [...]. Increasing your hand size but having the mandatory drawback. As-is, yeah it's a worse village.

Your suggestion looks indeed interesting. After all the feedback, I have changed my version.

What do you, or anybody else, think, which one is the more interesting? Would your's have to cost $4?

Gatehouse v2
Quote
+2 Actions
You may reveal all but 1 card
from your hand. If you do, the
player to your left chooses one
card. Discard it, for +2 Cards.
Gatehouse v3
Quote
+1 Card
+2 Actions
Reveal your hand.
The player to your left chooses
one card. Discard it, for +2 Cards.
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