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Author Topic: Why assume full random kingdoms with fanmade cards?  (Read 494 times)

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LibraryAdventurer

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Why assume full random kingdoms with fanmade cards?
« on: September 12, 2020, 02:41:09 pm »
+1

It seemed more appropriate to separate this into a different thread, but this is quoted from the weekly card design contest:

...then a substantial number of games will be without any trashing (~1/5 I think), and then the part most important for this challenge is useless. On the other hand, most games will have a trasher of any sort...

There's no reason to assume full random kingdoms when talking about fanmade cards. Why do people do that?

gambit05

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Re: Why assume full random kingdoms with fanmade cards?
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2020, 02:46:37 pm »
+1

It seemed more appropriate to separate this into a different thread, but this is quoted from the weekly card design contest:

...then a substantial number of games will be without any trashing (~1/5 I think), and then the part most important for this challenge is useless. On the other hand, most games will have a trasher of any sort...

There's no reason to assume full random kingdoms when talking about fanmade cards. Why do people do that?

Because I mix my Fan made cards (well, those that seem to be good and interesting enough) full random with official cards.
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anordinaryman

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Re: Why assume full random kingdoms with fanmade cards?
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2020, 03:10:23 pm »
+4

It seemed more appropriate to separate this into a different thread, but this is quoted from the weekly card design contest:

...then a substantial number of games will be without any trashing (~1/5 I think), and then the part most important for this challenge is useless. On the other hand, most games will have a trasher of any sort...

There's no reason to assume full random kingdoms when talking about fanmade cards. Why do people do that?

Because the game Dominion itself is designed for full random kingdoms. I could ask a similar question, why assume everyone starts with 10 cards in their deck when discussing fanmade cards?

A card designed without full random kingdoms in mind isnít a Dominion fan card, itís a Dominion spin off fan card.
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mutated

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Re: Why assume full random kingdoms with fanmade cards?
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2020, 07:56:16 pm »
+4

It seemed more appropriate to separate this into a different thread, but this is quoted from the weekly card design contest:

...then a substantial number of games will be without any trashing (~1/5 I think), and then the part most important for this challenge is useless. On the other hand, most games will have a trasher of any sort...

There's no reason to assume full random kingdoms when talking about fanmade cards. Why do people do that?

Because the game Dominion itself is designed for full random kingdoms. I could ask a similar question, why assume everyone starts with 10 cards in their deck when discussing fanmade cards?

A card designed without full random kingdoms in mind isnít a Dominion fan card, itís a Dominion spin off fan card.

Those two scenarios aren't equivalent. The manuals include designed kingdoms. IRL tourneys often use designed kingdoms. Donald X. generally only tests/plays with a couple expansions at once, if I recall correctly.

Designing a fan card that is completely irrelevant without a specific other kind of card is not great, of course. If it is simply a passable, niche card that becomes significantly more interesting if matched with a specific other kind of card, well, that's fine. Plenty of official cards do this.
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chronostrike

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Re: Why assume full random kingdoms with fanmade cards?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2020, 12:22:14 am »
+5

There are many existing cards that aren't fully active without other classes of cards in the kingdom, e.g. Moat, Courtier, Tunnel, Fortress, Hunting Grounds, Mission, Labyrinth, Changeling, Patron, Falconer.

Considering full random can be useful because it gives a metric for whether a card is too narrow.  If the circumstances are too rare, then most of the hand-picked games with that card will feel the same.  I know that's how I feel when I try to make Crossroads really effective.

I think that both random and constructed games must be considered because both are played, but not all cards are required to appeal to both play styles.

Also, I hesitate to say this because I don't want to taint peoples design choices, but self synergy is not required for my challenge (and neither is it discouraged).  The stipulation was that the card can't have trashing itself be the benefit.  The card could trash other copies, or it could just not have inherent trashing ability.  Catapult/Rocks is acceptable; so is Catacombs.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Why assume full random kingdoms with fanmade cards?
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2020, 12:40:21 am »
+2

It seemed more appropriate to separate this into a different thread, but this is quoted from the weekly card design contest:

...then a substantial number of games will be without any trashing (~1/5 I think), and then the part most important for this challenge is useless. On the other hand, most games will have a trasher of any sort...

There's no reason to assume full random kingdoms when talking about fanmade cards. Why do people do that?

Because the game Dominion itself is designed for full random kingdoms. I could ask a similar question, why assume everyone starts with 10 cards in their deck when discussing fanmade cards?
The game of Dominion is designed to accommodate full random as a possibility because it's one of the options for creating kingdoms. That's not the same as being designed specifically for full random kingdoms. You assume the starting ten cards because that is in the rules. There's nothing in the rules saying you have to use full random kingdoms. Those are completely different things.

A card designed without full random kingdoms in mind isnít a Dominion fan card, itís a Dominion spin off fan card.
That's is simply not true.

It's good to consider full random when designing fan cards, but there's no reason to assume that full random is the standard. Different players choose their kingdoms in different ways, and that's how it's supposed to be according to the rules.

gambit05

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Re: Why assume full random kingdoms with fanmade cards?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2020, 01:25:40 am »
+2

For me, "full random" does not necessarily imply full random each and every game. I can pair a Fan made card with specific official cards to see how they synergise or anti-synergise. I can pair it with card that have similar functions.  I can add a Fan card on one day to two or three selected expansions, the next day with two different ones, or just change a couple of cards from the previous games. In the end this means to me "full random", i.e. the Fan card has the theoretical chance to be combined with any official card.
There are recommended sets for official expansions and some people like to play with only two expansions at a time, often for practical reasons, but both isn't an argument for me that any given card, official or Fan made, shouldn't be considered as part of any possible Kingdom.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Why assume full random kingdoms with fanmade cards?
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2020, 01:58:50 am »
+2

For me, "full random" does not necessarily imply full random each and every game. I can pair a Fan made card with specific official cards to see how they synergise or anti-synergise. I can pair it with card that have similar functions.  I can add a Fan card on one day to two or three selected expansions, the next day with two different ones, or just change a couple of cards from the previous games. In the end this means to me "full random", i.e. the Fan card has the theoretical chance to be combined with any official card.
There are recommended sets for official expansions and some people like to play with only two expansions at a time, often for practical reasons, but both isn't an argument for me that any given card, official or Fan made, shouldn't be considered as part of any possible Kingdom.
I think when most people say full random, they mean more random than that. I wouldn't consider that full random.

I also think it's entirely fine to design a fan card with the plan to never put it in the same kingdom as another certain card. (Of course, it's also fine that doing this makes it less likely to win a fan card design contest...)

For instance, in the card updating contest thread, spineflu posted this alternate version of Royal Seal:
Quote
Royal Seal ē $5 ē Treasure
Cards cost $2 less this turn.
-
While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may put that card onto your deck.
This would be bonkers in the same kingdom as Stonemason or any easily spammable +buy, but that's not a problem. I just wouldn't put them in the same kingdom together.
(As long as I'm not playing a rated online game, I do this with official cards too. I'd never put Highway together with Stonemason or any easily spammable +buy either.)
« Last Edit: September 13, 2020, 02:06:12 am by LibraryAdventurer »
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gambit05

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Re: Why assume full random kingdoms with fanmade cards?
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2020, 02:34:53 am »
+1

It seems that my definition of "full random" isn't that much different to your definition of "selected/non-full random", except maybe that when I (or others) identify too many situations where a given card is either useless or just bonkers, then I would not consider that card as playable.
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Gazbag

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Re: Why assume full random kingdoms with fanmade cards?
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2020, 06:32:35 am »
+3

If you design a card that works for full random then anyone can use that card, no matter how they choose to make their kingdoms. If you design a card that doesn't work for full random or any other way of creating kingdoms then now a number of people can't use that card and that kind of sucks.
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segura

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Re: Why assume full random kingdoms with fanmade cards?
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2020, 06:49:02 am »
0

If folks do a kind of fan-expansion, i.e. cards with thematic and mechanic connections and some intra-set combos, that is totally fine. It is after all how official expansions are designed as well. But stuff from that expansion should work also if you mix it together with other cards.

And it does, as the ratio if card categories, like villages or trashers, is fairly constant over expansions. That is why I do not understand the initial question.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Why assume full random kingdoms with fanmade cards?
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2020, 10:21:22 pm »
0

I think it would be fine to design a card specifically to be used in certain contexts if there was a good enough reason. It wouldn't be as cool as having a card useful in all contexts but if there's a really good reason for it then sure, why not.

Actually this gives me an idea for a contest. Something like, design a card that adds something else to the supply, such as:

Scouts
$5 Action
+1 Action
Gain a Scout to your hand.
-
Setup: Add Scout to the supply.

Edit: I myself have almost never played full random. There are certain cards I'll only play with on rare occasion, such as Chapel, and I almost always only randomize about half the set after making sure there's a village, a trasher, a +buy, etc, because that's just the way I like it.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2020, 10:25:11 pm by Fly-Eagles-Fly »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Why assume full random kingdoms with fanmade cards?
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2020, 11:55:20 pm »
0

I think it would be fine to design a card specifically to be used in certain contexts if there was a good enough reason. It wouldn't be as cool as having a card useful in all contexts but if there's a really good reason for it then sure, why not.


Yeah, I think it's just fine if a fan card wants to do that; and I wouldn't go as far as to say that it's now a Dominion variant rather than a Dominion fan card. Really designing a card that is only worth playing with if there is a trasher in the kingdom is just the same as adding something like that as a setup rule on the card itself.

However, it does make sense as a default to assume that cards should work with full random if they don't specify otherwise. So if someone presents a card that is broken in some way if the Kingdom happens to have Outpost, then it makes sense to point this out to the author. On the other hand if the author states up-front "this card is only designed to be used in games without Duration cards", then there's no reason to come back with "well it's no longer a real Dominion fan card then!"
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LostPhoenix

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Re: Why assume full random kingdoms with fanmade cards?
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2020, 12:22:30 am »
0

A card that only works in specific kingdoms is absolutely still a Dominion card.
However, I would consider it to be a poorly-designed one.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Why assume full random kingdoms with fanmade cards?
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2020, 12:34:31 am »
+2

A card that only works in specific kingdoms is absolutely still a Dominion card.
However, I would consider it to be a poorly-designed one.
Rats really only works when there's some kind of trash for benefit. Is it poorly designed?

NoMoreFun

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Re: Why assume full random kingdoms with fanmade cards?
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2020, 12:55:56 am »
+1

A card that only works in specific kingdoms is absolutely still a Dominion card.
However, I would consider it to be a poorly-designed one.
Rats really only works when there's some kind of trash for benefit. Is it poorly designed?

IMO it isn't great. It takes up 21 cards of space (more all the Ways or all the Projects) which is bad for a very situational card. A lot of it's best interactions are the same as Fortress.

The concept of a self replicating card that can trash cards other than itself could probably be done better.

But when it works, it's quite fun, which makes up for everything. I prefer "bland" to "useless" when the card isn't interacting, but sometimes that just isn't possible with a simple design.

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LostPhoenix

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Re: Why assume full random kingdoms with fanmade cards?
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2020, 09:20:29 am »
0

A card that only works in specific kingdoms is absolutely still a Dominion card.
However, I would consider it to be a poorly-designed one.
Rats really only works when there's some kind of trash for benefit. Is it poorly designed?

I do dislike Rats for its narrowness, but I'm not talking about cards that synergize with trashing, as that is a very common mechanic, often present multiple times per set. (I've designed cards like this in the past.) Rather, I meant cards that have synergies with one or two other specific cards.
Also, if your card has an overpowered synergy with another card, then "just don't play them together" is not a valid argument to me.
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