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Author Topic: Dominion: Urbanisation  (Read 3011 times)

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X-tra

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Re: Dominion: Urbanisation
« Reply #50 on: September 16, 2020, 03:55:25 pm »
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You could use that logic to defend any terrible, no-fun card as long as it was unique. Yeah Courser is academically interesting and it's one card out of 500 or whatever, but that doesn't mean it's worth making if games with it are mostly bad. And to be clear I'm not defending Mountebank, though personally I tend to like Mountebank games fine these days.
With Courser, I must admit that I wanted urm, some kind of “feels bad, man” card into this set. Not unlike Mountebank that I previously mentioned. I want players to be like “Okay, so Curses are truly going to be an issue here. So think, my dude, think! Should I trash them at the risk of being re-Cursed, or hold onto the 5 Curses I’ve been given and roll with a less optimised deck anyway?”. These kinds of mental preparations are pretty unique to Courser games and that’s the sort of intriguing meta I was aiming for.

Uh. In Dominion, there are also cards like Wall and Bandit Fort, which, to me, makes games dreadful and not very fun. But! I accept their presence and hey, the game doesn’t completely break when they’re there. Likewise, I don’t think Courser breaks Dominion. It does make you go “aww shite” indeed, but it ain’t, in my opinion, so offensive that it has no right to exist.

It takes a bunch of work to get Hoarder up to being able to gain Provinces even on boards where it is possible, so I don't necessarily think it is overpowered; there are other Province-gaining combos after all. Something that could be a problem though is that it's best with the two mixed piles - Castles and Knights - and those can easily lead to situations where one player is able to play Hoarder for Provinces and the others aren't because the only Action-Victory cards got sniped.
I thought of these piles being problematic, but came at peace with them when I pondered on how they would play with Hoarders.

The Castle-pile, first of all, is ordered in a specific way; which means you know what to expect, you know what you’ll be revealing for your opponent(s). You can plan to try not to reveal Small Castle and Opulent Castle – you’re in control of that. Um. For Humble Castle, though, I suppose it’s 1st player advantage to grab it. But it ain’t a very good opening, at least. In games with more than 2 players, this problem becomes even less apparent, because there is an extra copy of these 3-typed Castles anyway.

As for the Knights, only Dame Josephine gives you 4 types in one. The Victory tag is the extra type you want for Hoarder. But! It’s risky, because Dame Josephine can be trashed by another Knight anyway. So the investment is pretty unsafe and can be broken. Therefore, I don’t believe it’s too unfair if you managed to snipe her. Besides, she’s pretty bad as a Knight. :D
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X-tra

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Re: Dominion: Urbanisation
« Reply #51 on: September 17, 2020, 06:39:03 pm »
+3

Card set #7

          

It's now been a couple of weeks since you've ascended to the throne, m'Lord. I think we should treat ourselves and purchase some really expensive goodies! After all, our gainers shown last week did wonders for our economy. Though, remember to check our savings first, that might just make us rich enough!


  • Mobsters (my other thread): Joining Hoarder is the second Night card of Urbanisation: the do-no-good Mobsters! And hey, look, a Treasure card too, hi! Huh? “Night – Treasure”? Yes. “Night – Treasure”. A weird dual type, an inexistent one in fact, but hey, I really wanted to give it a shot!

    At day, they lend you a nice sum, at night they help you repay what you owe by means I’d rather not say. And of course, the mob is a friend with non-benefits: they’ll tax you should you ever need their help. There are holier paths to an end in life, my friend!

    Mobsters, in my other thread, used to be, let’s be honest, crappier. They used to yield if played as Treasures. So with 3 Mobsters, you could use 2 of them to gain a Province and spare the 3rd one in your Night phase to repay your . Except, 3 Golds do the same job, generate more and are cheaper to acquire. Oops. Mobsters also used to cost . Now, it’s the other way around: . I believe Mobsters should be more viable in this form.

  • Savings (Weekly Contest thread): 2 Treasures shown in one set. Holla holla get dolla. This card has remained unchanged since it won the contest for which it was submitted, harr harr harr. Simple enough, it’s a Treasure that subtracts or add a Buy to your buying power. Of course, when you add a Buy, the card is subpar: it’s basically a non-terminal Woodcutter. No, you want the -1 Buy option. The + this option comes with makes it a Treasure for , a sweet deal indeed. You’ll need to take that Buy back somehow, though. Easiest case: Add another Savings to your deck. Better case: Market’s in the Kingdom. Dancing around Savings is pretty fun; and I believe it works!

  • Ballroom (my other thread): The Big Pharma of Urbanisation. The King of Kings. The… alright. Well, it’s the most expensive card of the set, if I didn’t make it obvious enough. It’s also the only card costing (Mobsters also costs , but it’s a cost split with Debt, so w/e). Ballroom, it Throne Rooms 2 of your cards. That’s a cool deal! 4 Action plays through the usage of one card, that’s more than what King’s Court can do! True, but it’s also harder to connect. That’s why the itsy bitsy +1 Card exists on Ballroom. Hopefully, the clutch is good enough to find the other Action card you were looking for. Because remember: If you play only one card twice through Ballroom, well, it’s as if you overpaid way too much for a Throne Room.

« Last Edit: September 22, 2020, 08:39:43 pm by X-tra »
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gambit05

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Re: Dominion: Urbanisation
« Reply #52 on: September 18, 2020, 12:18:24 am »
0

I like all of them; cool cards. Especially interesting looks Mobsters. I am sure you are aware of this, but just want to mention it anyway: Mobsters has a quite strong interaction with other Debt-cost cards; the most extreme case being Mountain Pass. If the first bidder has a Mobsters in hand, they can immediately bid 40 Debt.
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segura

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Re: Dominion: Urbanisation
« Reply #53 on: September 18, 2020, 01:37:36 am »
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I think Ballroom would be more compact if it were simply a Throned Throne Room, i.e.:
Do this twice: You may play an Action card from your hand twice.

Thus you can draw into new Actions and the card would look less weird without the +1 Card. The effect on the power level is ambiguous, on average probably a slight nerf (my version is only stronger if the first card you Throne is a net drawer).
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 01:39:30 am by segura »
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segura

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Re: Dominion: Urbanisation
« Reply #54 on: September 18, 2020, 01:42:01 am »
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About Savings, I think it needs a different wording like „spend a Buy for“. Otherwise you could would get the extra 2 Coins even if you were already down to 0 Buys.
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X-tra

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Re: Dominion: Urbanisation
« Reply #55 on: September 22, 2020, 09:18:44 am »
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Sorry about the late arrival of the new set of cards (set #8). I was out of town for the past couple of days and couldn’t update this thread. I will post the new set around 8 PM (EST) tonight as usual.

Anyway, about the last bunch of cards:

The reason why Ballroom is worded as such is because I want to force the player to already have their two other Action cards at the moment they play Ballroom. I don’t want them to hijack their deck by drawing into their second Action card. This way, I want to encourage Ballroom users to plan into having a higher deck control than they otherwise would.

As for Savings, since -1 Buy is an in-existent concept in Dominion, I’d apply new rulings for it. In this case, your total number of Buys can go under 0. But if you have a negative amount of Buy, it’s as if you had 0 Buys, in the sense that you cannot buy a card with a sub-zero amount. For instance, if you play two Savings for their -1 Buy option and then play a 3rd one for its +1 Buy option, in the end, you have 0 Buys (1 – 1 – 1 + 1 = 0).
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X-tra

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Re: Dominion: Urbanisation
« Reply #56 on: September 22, 2020, 08:38:53 pm »
0

Card set #8

          


     

     

     


We have workers, we have houses, we have riches. Let's make your glorious reign a successful one! Urbanisation provides you with a handful of Victory cards. Will your successors grow up to be powerful monarchs surrounded by their beloved green cards?


  • Successor (Weekly Contest thread): He’s just a poor boy from a poor family. Actually, not really. He’s well on his way to inherit beautiful lands his family have gathered over multiple ages. Soon to be a Landowner himself, he’ll have little kids of his own who will then have their turn to get their hands on all that sweet sweet land. Thus the cycle continues. Meanwhile, our original little Successor is now a rich Aristocrat, which in turn becomes a region-known Magnate. In the very end, he becomes the almighty Monarch and suddenly, all of your collected greens stop being burdens in your deck. Forever.

    This Traveller line is a tough one. We all dread how Treasure Hunter from the page line dilutes our decks with unwanted Silvers. Now here, imagine how you’ll feel as your Successors and Estates multiply in your deck. Because for each Successor you take, the Landowner he turns into makes sure another one gets tossed into your deck. Ouch. It certainly becomes a commitment. Once you go Successor, you are definitely aiming for a particular “deck is trash until…” strategy. It’s a valid one, and maybe there are other cards in the Supply that can help you handle it.

    Aristocrat turns the Estates your Successors gave you into Duchies. He returns them to the Supply instead of trashing them, because then, the Successor line would encourage pile outs too much. Then, the Magnate profits off these newly acquire Duchies and happily discards them for a nice sum. Sum on top of the drawing vanilla bonus, should I add! The last guy, Monarch, cantrips all of your Victory cards, except for Province. This is a fail safe so that you don’t do weird stuff with Provinces in play with, say, Changeling or something.

    All in all, Secret Path and Statue shown here will benefit from the Monarch. And even Suburbs shown in the second batch of cards welcomes your new Monarch overlord in your deck!

  • Secret Path (my other thread): An orange and green card shown in my other thread. It has remained unchanged, for I believe that, while a little ordinary and borderline boring, it is balanced as is. It’s a point card that filters your next hand. It has come handy in almost every game I’ve played with it, even though it does completely nothing the turn you play that little guy. Amongst other thing, it is a good feeder for Hoarder, a Night card shown two card sets ago. A single Secret Path ups your Hoarder at a gain of , and playing a Treasure that turn boosts that number up to . I just thought that little combo was nifty. :)

  • Statue (my other thread): Another Victory card that has remained unchanged since my last thread. I was damned confident about Statue back then, even going as far as labelling it “one of the cards I’m the proudest of”. And it looks like a cool alternate way to make too! But upon closer inspection, after a couple of test games, this may be on the weak side. I’ve toyed around the idea of making Statue non-terminal, but darn, it’s hard to judge. Maybe I’m just not seeing the epic endgame combo Statue can pull off. But if any of you do, please do tell!

    Still, if it needs any touch-ups at all, I’d like to keep the design as close as it is now as possible. I love the idea of sliding away a Victory card and an Action card for , especially the more expensive and juicer ones!

« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 08:21:46 pm by X-tra »
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D782802859

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Re: Dominion: Urbanisation
« Reply #57 on: September 22, 2020, 09:08:25 pm »
0

Successor's line is pretty interesting. I'm not sure Monarch is strong enough.
I think Secret Path could probably be non-terminal on the turn you play it.
Statue seem fine, it's slower than Dutchy but gives a bigger payoff.
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Urbanisation
« Reply #58 on: September 22, 2020, 09:18:52 pm »
0

I think I've already said in the WDC thread that I think the traveler line is too weak. I'd make Magnate +1$ per $ it costs (simpler and better power level) and Monarch a village or Lost City rather than Cantrip for green cards.

If this line were to exist, it seems like you would just stackpile terminals, and the payoff is that the line clogs a bit less but you still got lots of terminals

Statue is interesting. I don't think the limitation should exist.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Dominion: Urbanisation
« Reply #59 on: September 22, 2020, 10:15:24 pm »
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I really like Secret Path, but I agree it could be non-terminal, and I definitely think Monarch is a bit weak.
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dpm

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Re: Dominion: Urbanisation
« Reply #60 on: September 22, 2020, 10:46:11 pm »
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What happens if you Throne Room a Statue? 

What does Monarch do to Nobles or Mill? 
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Jonatan Djurachkovitch

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Re: Dominion: Urbanisation
« Reply #61 on: September 23, 2020, 01:52:48 am »
0

What happens when you have both Monarch and Inheritance? I also think that the wording on Statue is ambiguous when throned or played by itself. What about, "trash an action card from your hand costing up to $5. +1 VP per $ it cost. Trash this."
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Jonatan Djurachkovitch

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Re: Dominion: Urbanisation
« Reply #62 on: September 23, 2020, 01:59:36 am »
+1

I also think that you should have Monarch make your Victory cards Peddlers, if you have to buff it.
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X-tra

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Re: Dominion: Urbanisation
« Reply #63 on: September 23, 2020, 09:28:32 am »
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Monarch: Seems like a lot of you agree that Monarch is too weak as an end-of-line Traveler guy. This is odd to me because I feel like his powers of making it so that you have absolutely no dead cards in your deck (okay, save for Curses or Ruins) is pretty desirable. Especially since he gets fed by Successor and Landowner. Like, the effects are probably going to be immediate, save for some heavy trashing. If I were to change it, in my opinion, it’d be to make it so Victory cards under would turn into straight up Villages (“+1 Card, +2 Actions”) instead of being simple cantrips. It could help you play more than one Traveler guy at once, especially since you’ll have multiple of them because of the Landowner gaining a Successor, which turns into another Landowner giving another Successor, etc.

As for what happens for an inherited Estate under the Monarch’s influence: It simply gains the combined effects of the inherited card AND gains the “+1 Card, +1 Action” vanilla bonus on top of it. An inherited Smithy would thus turn an Estate into a “+4 Cards, +1 Action” card. The same goes for Action Victory cards, the cantrip effect is added on top of what it normally does. Nobles thus becomes “+1 Card, +1 Action. Choose one: +2 Actions; or +3 Cards”.

Secret Path: Wouldn’t a non-terminal Secret Path be too good in comparison to, well, Estate? For more, it’d non-terminally sift your next starting hand. I feel like it’s already worth its cost as is, but yeah, I could be wrong too.

Statue: Here’s a new version with better wording. It now completely mimics the wording used on Prince, so there should not be any confusion anymore:



It fixes the Throne Room question too. The Throne Room stays out with Statue like it would with Prince, except that it doesn’t do anything else beside that because of the new “If you do” wording (it is only set aside once and then fails to be set aside again because of the stop moving rule).
« Last Edit: September 24, 2020, 09:54:30 am by X-tra »
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Urbanisation
« Reply #64 on: September 23, 2020, 09:43:46 am »
0

Monarch: Seems like a lot of you agree that Monarch is too weak as an end-of-line Traveler guy. This is odd to me because I feel like his powers of making it so that you have absolutely no dead cards in your deck (okay, save for Curses or Ruins) is pretty desirable. Especially since he gets fed by Successor and Landowner. Like, the effects are probably going to be immediate, save for some heavy trashing. If I were to change it, in my opinion, it’d be to make it so Victory cards under $6 would turn into straight up Villages (“+1 Card, +2 Actions”) instead of being simple cantrips. It could help you play more than one Traveler guy at once, especially since you’ll have multiple of them because of the Landowner gaining a Successor, which turns into another Landowner giving another Successor, etc.

If you think about it in terms of how good the effect is in an absolute sense, it sounds good.

If you think about the game state after you've gone through the traveler line, it sounds much less good. You'll have lots of fairly weak terminals and a bunch of points from now-cantrip estates.

It's fine if it's weaker than the existing traveler lines, but I expect it'll almost never be worth going for it at all.

under $6

no don't
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X-tra

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Re: Dominion: Urbanisation
« Reply #65 on: September 23, 2020, 10:00:03 am »
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If you think about it in terms of how good the effect is in an absolute sense, it sounds good.

If you think about the game state after you've gone through the traveler line, it sounds much less good. You'll have lots of fairly weak terminals and a bunch of points from now-cantrip estates.

It's fine if it's weaker than the existing traveler lines, but I expect it'll almost never be worth going for it at all.
Don't forget about cantrip Duchies too, thanks to Aristocrat! Monarch just means that you won't clog your deck at all from Victory cards, an integral part of Dominion. I still think the bonus is worth it and it's definitely too strong to be printed on a card on its own. Still, I could buff it to Village Victory cards like I said, but I am still unsure if I should commit to this change.

no don't
Uh, if this is about the lack of coin symbols, worry not, they've been resorted in my post. :D
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Urbanisation
« Reply #66 on: September 23, 2020, 11:03:32 am »
+1

No, but don't add restrictions to your cards if they're not really needed. Just make it 'victory cards', not 'victory cards under 6$'.
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Jonatan Djurachkovitch

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Re: Dominion: Urbanisation
« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2020, 11:25:25 am »
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Right now I wouldn't want to go for Monarch unless there's some strong enabler, especially Villa or Cartographer or other sifters.
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dpm

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Re: Dominion: Urbanisation
« Reply #68 on: September 23, 2020, 11:52:26 am »
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You could Kiln a Colony.  That's pretty cool. 

It's OK that a Traveller line isn't always a must-buy.  Not everything has to be Teacher/Champion. 
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gambit05

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Re: Dominion: Urbanisation
« Reply #69 on: September 23, 2020, 12:15:49 pm »
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You could Kiln a Colony.  That's pretty cool. 

It's OK that a Traveller line isn't always a must-buy.  Not everything has to be Teacher/Champion.

That would be indeed quite a Combo. Unless I am not aware of any neat interactions that want the Victory cards to be real Actions, one could avoid this issue, e.g. "For the rest of the game, during your Action phases, you may reveal and then Exile any Victory cards from your hand."
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segura

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Re: Dominion: Urbanisation
« Reply #70 on: September 23, 2020, 12:24:25 pm »
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I don’t understand the Monarch cost restriction, it is not like the end of the line needs to be nerfed.
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X-tra

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Re: Dominion: Urbanisation
« Reply #71 on: September 23, 2020, 01:26:12 pm »
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The last guy, Monarch, cantrips all of your Victory cards, except for Province. This is a fail safe so that you don’t do weird stuff with Provinces in play with, say, Changeling or something.
People complained before how it'd make for some potential easy Province/Colony auto gains. I didn't care about it until I was bullied into changing Monarch to have a restriction.  ;D
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segura

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Re: Dominion: Urbanisation
« Reply #72 on: September 23, 2020, 01:31:24 pm »
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I think that the card is weak enough to enable these combos. It is not like people complain about Swindling or Butchering Peddlers into Provinces.
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X-tra

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Re: Dominion: Urbanisation
« Reply #73 on: September 24, 2020, 09:54:12 am »
+1

Here is what a non-limited Monarch with unchanged cantrip Victory cards would look like:



Note that without the limitation, it is possible to pull weird stuff with Monarch. For instance:
  • A single Princess (or 2 Highways) + Advance can make you gain a Province by trashing one of your useless Successor or what have you.
  • A Lurker can trash and gain from the trash a Colony.
  • Quarry reduces the price of every Base Victory card in the Supply.
  • Disciple can play a Colony twice and gain a copy of it.
  • Colonies or Provinces can be Ferried.
  • Colonies can be targeted with Transport or Invest, cheaply Exiling and acquiring them for or respectively.
And it goes on. :)
« Last Edit: September 24, 2020, 10:41:06 am by X-tra »
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Urbanisation
« Reply #74 on: September 24, 2020, 10:17:16 am »
0

I admit that this does have more effects than I was thinking of. Although, restricting it isn't conceptually elegant since you can still disciple your duchy and gain a copy of it. It makes the combo weaker, but doesn't remove the weirdness. Exiling a Duchy for 3$ is still so good that you would probably pile out duchies before you buy provinces.

Confronted with these examples, I would still leave it unrestricted. It doesn't seem all that much more extreme than what teacher does, and less extreme than other existing combos
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