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Author Topic: Villa - Coffers interaction  (Read 1889 times)

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jsf

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Villa - Coffers interaction
« on: August 27, 2020, 10:30:09 am »
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At the beginning of your second buy phase, after you had exited the first buy phase by buying Villa, can you spend coffers?

The rules I found on coffers seem to imply since start of this buy phase (for buys disabling spending coffers).  Please point me to a clearer version if I misunderstood that.

The rules I found on Villa indicate you don't do any of the effects associated with ending the buy phase.  But that doesn't necessarily mean the next time you enter a buy phase isn't a new buy phase.

The open source (single human vs. bots) game with the same rules as Dominion enforces "this turn" there, not "this buy phase.  I'm fixing other rule errors and bugs in that for personal use, so I'll likely change that to "this buy phase" anyway.  But in case I end up sharing my corrections, I'd like to keep track of which corrections are technically wrong.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Villa - Coffers interaction
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2020, 12:17:35 pm »
+2

Yes, you can. I don't know if it has been explicitly ruled on, but in general rulings have said that you can spend coffers during the "play treasures" part of your buy phases. Basically that the "before buying anything" isn't intended to actually make it so that once you have bought something, coffers are shut down for the rest of the turn, but rather than it can only be done in the "before you buy" part of your buy phase.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php
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jsf

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Re: Villa - Coffers interaction
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2020, 12:33:49 pm »
+2

I appreciate your answer.

But I would still hope to hear more answers (mainly since I haven't participated in this forum long enough to distinguish reliable answers vs. opinions).  Any references to specific wording in specific rules clarifications would also be appreciated.
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jamfamsam

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Re: Villa - Coffers interaction
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2020, 01:34:47 pm »
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The first edition rules of Guilds said that Coin Tokens "can only be spent in a Buy Phase." The second edition rules says "Coin Tokens can only be removed from a player's Coffers in that players's Buy Phase..."

Obviously the first edition rules are trumped by the second edition rules but I think the previous wording gives us a look at the Villa interaction since it is really the start of another Buy Phase for that player. I don't think the second edition rules eliminate the possibility of that meaning.
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jsf

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Re: Villa - Coffers interaction
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2020, 01:55:30 pm »
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Let me try to more clearly specify the ambiguity:

"A token there can be removed in your Buy phase, before buying anything"

The text "in your Buy phase" clearly qualifies "A token there can be removed" but does it also qualify "before buying anything" ?

The intent seems to be that it does implicitly also qualify "before buying anything"

Otherwise, we are left with "before buying anything, since ?when?"

If we saw a "before" lacking any explicit answer to "since when?" elsewhere in the rules (I don't know if that occurs) the tendency would be to say the generic answer to "since when" would be start of this turn.
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silverspawn

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Re: Villa - Coffers interaction
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2020, 01:55:44 pm »
+2

You definitely can. With something this important, it's a safe bet that the online implementation is correct, and you can do it online

Donald X.

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Re: Villa - Coffers interaction
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2020, 02:47:26 pm »
+3

At the beginning of your second buy phase, after you had exited the first buy phase by buying Villa, can you spend coffers?
Yes. You can spend coffers during the "play treasures" portion of your buy phase, and if you have many buy phases, you can do it during each of them.
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crj

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Re: Villa - Coffers interaction
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2020, 05:19:08 pm »
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The way I think of this (he says, nervously looking over his shoulder at the previous commenter) is that the Buy phase is composed of two sub-phases: the Play-Treasures sub-phase and the Make-Purchases sub-phase.

You can spend Coffers during any Play-Treasures sub-phase.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Villa - Coffers interaction
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2020, 05:31:40 pm »
+2

The way I think of this (he says, nervously looking over his shoulder at the previous commenter) is that the Buy phase is composed of two sub-phases: the Play-Treasures sub-phase and the Make-Purchases sub-phase.

You can spend Coffers during any Play-Treasures sub-phase.

I'm pretty sure that this interpretation has been basically confirmed by the previous commenter.
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Jeebus

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Re: Villa - Coffers interaction
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2020, 10:57:21 am »
+1

The open source (single human vs. bots) game with the same rules as Dominion enforces "this turn" there, not "this buy phase.  I'm fixing other rule errors and bugs in that for personal use, so I'll likely change that to "this buy phase" anyway.  But in case I end up sharing my corrections, I'd like to keep track of which corrections are technically wrong.

You can also get rules clarifications like these in the document in my signature (on BGG). It's all based on rulings made by Donald X.
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