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LordBaphomet

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Card updating contest
« on: August 19, 2020, 02:50:35 pm »
+3

How would you guys feel about a new design contest, similar to the weekly design contest, about updating bad cards from older expansions, much like was done in the Base and Intrigue with the replaced cards? The cards could be tweaked, or could be a whole new card with the same concept or mechanic (like scout and patrol). Each week would have three or so cards from older expansions to improve.
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D782802859

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2020, 02:56:06 pm »
0

Could be interesting.
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Gubump

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2020, 04:21:31 pm »
0

Sounds interesting to me.
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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2020, 05:11:02 pm »
0

There are only a dozen or so over- and underpowered cards but I like this idea.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2020, 10:36:19 am »
+3

Would be a good idea for a week of the weekly design contest.
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Aquila

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2020, 01:57:00 pm »
+1

Would be a good idea for a week of the weekly design contest.
We did have it once, right back at contest #18.

Variants on official cards might be a big enough field to explore with contests, or maybe not. Depends on how flexible you'd allow things to be, like would borrowing mechanics from other expansions be allowed? If not, I doubt there would be much room. Unless you do like Empires did to Prosperity, a new expansion extending a current expansion theme.
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LordBaphomet

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2020, 03:23:41 pm »
+1

Would be a good idea for a week of the weekly design contest.
We did have it once, right back at contest #18.

Variants on official cards might be a big enough field to explore with contests, or maybe not. Depends on how flexible you'd allow things to be, like would borrowing mechanics from other expansions be allowed? If not, I doubt there would be much room. Unless you do like Empires did to Prosperity, a new expansion extending a current expansion theme.
Another fun contest would be for a "sequel" expansion, like how adventures is the seaside sequel, and empires is the prosperity sequel. I guess renaissance is a bit of guilds and dark ages. However, it would be fun to do new mechanics to complement Intrigue, or Nocturne maybe? Corncucopia would be interesting too.
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Doom_Shark

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2020, 06:45:36 pm »
+3

I think nocturne is more sequel to dark ages than renaissance. Yes, renaissance has a bit of a tfb theme but nocturne is more thematically similar and has the sheer numbers of cards and the bunches of non-supply things that dark ages did. It also has heirlooms to replace coppers like dark ages had shelters to replace estates
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D782802859

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2020, 07:10:07 pm »
0

Plus, just from flavor Renaissance is quite literally the opposite of Dark Ages. It's about the age of enlightenment. Nocturne definitely has some of that darker stuff going on, like Den of Sin, Raider, and Ghost Town.
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LordBaphomet

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2020, 05:22:48 pm »
0

Card Updating Contest 1

Make a new version of one of the following cards:
Sea Hag (curser using duration, top-of deck/bottom-of-deck, or using mats)
Spy (non-terminal deck attack. Try not to make it too slow)
Tournament (somehow gains from fixed deck of prizes. You can make your own prizes or use the same ones. Make sure it's not as rich-get-richer)

Judging will be in about two weeks
« Last Edit: August 23, 2020, 05:41:37 pm by LordBaphomet »
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Aquila

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2020, 03:33:15 pm »
0

So here's one for Spy:
Quote
Enforcer - Action Attack, $5 cost.
+1 Card
+1 Action
+ $1

Each other player discards a card costing at least $2 per other Enforcer you have in play (or reveals they can't), then draws until they have 4 cards in hand.
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LordBaphomet

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2020, 03:39:48 pm »
0

So here's one for Spy:
Quote
Enforcer - Action Attack, $5 cost.
+1 Card
+1 Action
+ $1

Each other player discards a card costing at least $2 per other Enforcer you have in play (or reveals they can't), then draws until they have 4 cards in hand.

The resemblance with spy is rather weak. It should be some sort of deck attack like rabble, oracle, scrying pool, etc. Maybe it can reveal from deck per played, then discard or put back, your choice? I do like the per played idea, makes it not too slow.
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lompeluiten

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2020, 04:14:02 am »
0

Card Updating Contest 1

Make a new version of one of the following cards:
Sea Hag (curser using duration, top-of deck/bottom-of-deck, or using mats)
Spy (non-terminal deck attack. Try not to make it too slow)
Tournament (somehow gains from fixed deck of prizes. You can make your own prizes or use the same ones. Make sure it's not as rich-get-richer)

Judging will be in about two weeks
Sea hag is a bad card? I crushed my opponents multiple times with it. Not just win... CRUSHED!
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D782802859

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2020, 07:05:10 am »
0

Card Updating Contest 1

Make a new version of one of the following cards:
Sea Hag (curser using duration, top-of deck/bottom-of-deck, or using mats)
Spy (non-terminal deck attack. Try not to make it too slow)
Tournament (somehow gains from fixed deck of prizes. You can make your own prizes or use the same ones. Make sure it's not as rich-get-richer)

Judging will be in about two weeks
Sea hag is a bad card? I crushed my opponents multiple times with it. Not just win... CRUSHED!

It's not bad as in weak, however it does have design issues, since it doesn't produce resources and can take over games.
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Aquila

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2020, 07:13:38 am »
0

So here's one for Spy:
Quote
Enforcer - Action Attack, $5 cost.
+1 Card
+1 Action
+ $1

Each other player discards a card costing at least $2 per other Enforcer you have in play (or reveals they can't), then draws until they have 4 cards in hand.

The resemblance with spy is rather weak. It should be some sort of deck attack like rabble, oracle, scrying pool, etc. Maybe it can reveal from deck per played, then discard or put back, your choice? I do like the per played idea, makes it not too slow.
Ok sure, I focused on just the cantrip Attack aspect. I think your idea would be much slower than Spy though? You'd have several cards at once to consider.
But I'll submit another idea going down the Sea Hag route:
Quote
Brute - Action Attack, $5 cost.
+ $2
Each other player reveals the top card of their deck. If it's an Action or Treasure, they discard it and gain a Curse onto their deck.
It's hitting somebody just once between turns. Maybe still nasty enough an Attack to cost it $5?
Edit: costed it $5 and named it Brute. Because it's brutal.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2020, 03:01:52 am by Aquila »
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LordBaphomet

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2020, 09:05:43 am »
0

So here's one for Spy:
Quote
Enforcer - Action Attack, $5 cost.
+1 Card
+1 Action
+ $1

Each other player discards a card costing at least $2 per other Enforcer you have in play (or reveals they can't), then draws until they have 4 cards in hand.

The resemblance with spy is rather weak. It should be some sort of deck attack like rabble, oracle, scrying pool, etc. Maybe it can reveal from deck per played, then discard or put back, your choice? I do like the per played idea, makes it not too slow.
Ok sure, I focused on just the cantrip Attack aspect. I think your idea would be much slower than Spy though? You'd have several cards at once to consider.
But I'll submit another idea going down the Sea Hag route:
Quote
Scallywag - Action Attack, $4 cost.
+ $2
Each other player reveals the top card of their deck. If it's an Action or Treasure, they discard it and gain a Curse onto their deck.
It's hitting somebody just once between turns. Maybe still nasty enough an Attack to cost it $5?
I think it should cost five since it makes 2$ and also discards good cards but always leaves useless ones.
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segura

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2020, 09:30:25 am »
+1

It's not bad as in weak, however it does have design issues, since it doesn't produce resources and can take over games.
What is "take over games" supposed to mean?

Sea Hag is not merey totally fine as it is but actually one of the more interesting Cursers.
It is basically Cursing plus the equivalent of the -1 Card token Attack from Relic. That's why it does not do anything for you, it already does enough bad things for the other dudes.

So how about nerfing overpowered Attacks like Torturer, Cultist, Mountebank or Coven instead of messing with the good Attack in the game?
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LordBaphomet

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2020, 09:48:31 am »
0

1) It produces no resources
2) It is really, really, good. You need to buy it in the opening or else you will drown in curses.
3) There is already a cheap junker in seaside, ambassador, which is much more interesting
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segura

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2020, 09:52:01 am »
+2

2) It is really, really, good. You need to buy it in the opening or else you will drown in curses.
That is a general statement about junkers; Sea Hag is not more mandatory than any other one.
Ironically the other Seaside card you mentioned, Ambassador, is a card you can skip far less frequently than Sea Hag.

In general I do frankly not understand these old Saboteur-style arguments. Either the card is too weak because it does not do anything vanilla or it is too strong and the fact that it does not do vanilla is irrelevant.
You cannot argue that a card is strong and complain that it lacks vanilla at the same time.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2020, 09:55:03 am by segura »
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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2020, 09:54:58 am »
0

I happen to agree that sea hag is a fine design, but I think talking about power level is looking at the wrong spectrum. Cards generally aren't fun or unfun base solely on power level. If you doubt this, just look at donate.
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segura

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2020, 09:59:39 am »
0

I happen to agree that sea hag is a fine design, but I think talking about power level is looking at the wrong spectrum. Cards generally aren't fun or unfun base solely on power level. If you doubt this, just look at donate.
Well, sure, but how fun a card is lies in the eyes of the beholder.
It is much easier to get consensus on more objective criteria, like the swinginess of Tournament or the massive underpowerdness of Spy.
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majiponi

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2020, 10:02:16 am »
+4

Sea Hag Hag
cost $4 - Action - Attack
+$2
Each other player reveals the top card of their deck, and if it's not a Curse, gain a Curse onto their deck.
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silverspawn

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2020, 10:24:52 am »
+1

I happen to agree that sea hag is a fine design, but I think talking about power level is looking at the wrong spectrum. Cards generally aren't fun or unfun base solely on power level. If you doubt this, just look at donate.
Well, sure, but how fun a card is lies in the eyes of the beholder.
It is much easier to get consensus on more objective criteria, like the swinginess of Tournament or the massive underpowerdness of Spy.

I don't think this is a case where you want to give up on optimizing the thing you care about directly because it's harder to measure

It's not like powerlevel is almost the same as fun-level. It's a totally different thing. Ditto with swinginess. Very low powerlevel is the best proxy because everyone agrees that a card that never gets bought isn't fun, but high powerlevel really doesn't tell you much.

I'd make a poll -- come up with 10 plausible candidates, vote for the least fun one, then resdesign that one.
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LordBaphomet

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2020, 12:17:49 pm »
0

I happen to agree that sea hag is a fine design, but I think talking about power level is looking at the wrong spectrum. Cards generally aren't fun or unfun base solely on power level. If you doubt this, just look at donate.
Well, sure, but how fun a card is lies in the eyes of the beholder.
It is much easier to get consensus on more objective criteria, like the swinginess of Tournament or the massive underpowerdness of Spy.

I don't think this is a case where you want to give up on optimizing the thing you care about directly because it's harder to measure

It's not like powerlevel is almost the same as fun-level. It's a totally different thing. Ditto with swinginess. Very low powerlevel is the best proxy because everyone agrees that a card that never gets bought isn't fun, but high powerlevel really doesn't tell you much.

I'd make a poll -- come up with 10 plausible candidates, vote for the least fun one, then resdesign that one.

I could make a poll to replace sea hag, if that would be better
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LastFootnote

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2020, 12:47:06 pm »
+3



Quote
Sea Hag: Action-Attack, $5
+$1
Each other player looks at the top card of their deck and may discard it, then gains a Curse onto their deck.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2020, 11:47:36 am by LastFootnote »
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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2020, 01:20:01 pm »
+1

here's the blank sea hag template:
template
judge should probably help everyone w that for this contest. just like, 1% less friction for an entrant.
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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2020, 01:24:19 pm »
0

also here's my sea hag. makes it closer to old witch and borrows a bit from Lookout.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2020, 01:56:23 pm »
0

also here's my sea hag. makes it closer to old witch and borrows a bit from Lookout.

I think this takes too much away from the brutality of Sea Hag. Obviously there΄s room for brutality to be taken away buy I think this is a bit much.
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D782802859

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2020, 02:31:50 pm »
0



Updating Sea Hag via a sort of merge with Spy.
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LordBaphomet

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2020, 02:56:09 pm »
0



Updating Sea Hag via a sort of merge with Spy.

If you play this multiple times, you can ruin someones turn with curses
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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2020, 03:10:15 pm »
+1

Eh. A quick attempt for Spy. Didn't really think this through, there might be issues with this version. Anyway, here goes nothing:



Biggest problem here is that if the top deck revealed card doesn't match any card in your opponent's hand, then all subsequent Spies will fail. For its price, it's pretty oof. It should probably discard the top card of their deck no matter what, but this would add more words to this iteration of Spy, and it's already so full of 'em.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2020, 03:12:21 pm by X-tra »
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D782802859

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2020, 03:15:19 pm »
0



Updating Sea Hag via a sort of merge with Spy.

If you play this multiple times, you can ruin someones turn with curses

No you can't, it has to discard the curse to give them another.
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LordBaphomet

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2020, 03:29:06 pm »
0



Updating Sea Hag via a sort of merge with Spy.

If you play this multiple times, you can ruin someones turn with curses
No you can't, it has to discard the curse to give them another.
Sorry, didn't read that well
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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2020, 04:41:16 pm »
+1

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grep

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2020, 06:03:01 pm »
+3

Oops, looks like NoMoreFun has created a card very similar to mine. Nevertheless,
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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #35 on: August 26, 2020, 12:34:54 am »
+2

I'm starting to think that maybe it's worth trying Spy at $5 with +$1. The idea just being, you're going to buy way fewer of them at that price point, so they'll slow the game down less. That's the theory, anyway.
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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2020, 01:42:39 am »
+1

My Spy
Doesn't slow the game as much because there's no choice involved.

Quote
Spy
$4 - Action - Attack
+1 Card
+1 Action.
Each other player reveals the top card of their deck. If it's an action or treasure costing at least $2, they discard it. Otherwise, they put it back. If no one discarded a card, +$1.

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2020, 03:39:15 am »
+2

Sea Hag variant:



Sea Hag
$4 Action - Attack
Quote
Each other player gains a Curse.
If this is the first time you played a Sea Hag
this turn, they gain it onto their deck.
If there are one or more empty Supply piles, +$1.
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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2020, 10:50:24 pm »
+3

Sea Hag variant:



Sea Hag
$4 Action - Attack
Quote
Each other player gains a Curse.
If this is the first time you played a Sea Hag
this turn, they gain it onto their deck.
If there are one or more empty Supply piles, +$1.


Too harsh in 4-player games. Imagine 3 Curses are on your deck when you end your 3rd turn.
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gambit05

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #39 on: August 27, 2020, 02:50:20 am »
0

Sea Hag
$4 Action - Attack
Quote
Each other player gains a Curse.
If this is the first time you played a Sea Hag
this turn, they gain it onto their deck.
If there are one or more empty Supply piles, +$1.

Too harsh in 4-player games. Imagine 3 Curses are on your deck when you end your 3rd turn.
Good point, but being 4th in a game with a strong, cheap Curser is harsh anyway. As the 4th player in such a scenario, I wouldn't buy a Sea Hag myself, but instead a powerful $4 cost card (not considering the possibility of a $5-$2 opening). A strong Trasher, if available. A Smithy could solve that problem in a different way. Even when the 4th player can't do anything against having 3 Curses on their next turn, would it be really worse than having those Curses scattered in their deck? Having a turn with 3 Curses means that the next hand is unaffected.
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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2020, 12:54:07 pm »
0

This is basically a mini-Rabble that is more customizable to cooperate with Bandid or Pirate Ship. It is chainable. I'm not sure about the vanilla bonus; I was original thinking about +2 Cards, but that'd possibly make its chainability too good.

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2020, 05:29:52 am »
0

Sea Hag variant:



Sea Hag
$4 Action - Attack
Quote
Each other player gains a Curse.
If this is the first time you played a Sea Hag
this turn, they gain it onto their deck.
If there are one or more empty Supply piles, +$1.

This is clearly stronger than the printed version, especially in multiplayer. I don't think Sea Hag needs to be made even stronger, though the empty-pile bonus is a nice idea ...
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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2020, 11:00:40 am »
+2

also here's my sea hag. makes it closer to old witch and borrows a bit from Lookout.

I think this takes too much away from the brutality of Sea Hag. Obviously there΄s room for brutality to be taken away buy I think this is a bit much.

I don't think it needs to be brutal. and Seaside needs more trashing.
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LordBaphomet

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2020, 01:15:40 pm »
0

Three more days for submissions
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Xen3k

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2020, 05:54:20 pm »
0



Quote
Spy - $4
Action - Attack
+1 Action

Look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Put one in your hand and discard the rest.

Each other player reveals the top card of their deck, and discards it or puts it back, your choice.

Just a bit of a buff to the personal card selection/sifting. Vanilla Spy is actually pretty popular in my game group, but we do acknowledge it is not very powerful. I think this change would make it very desirable just for the non-attack effect.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2020, 05:55:49 pm by Xen3k »
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LordBaphomet

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2020, 06:08:32 pm »
+1



Quote
Spy - $4
Action - Attack
+1 Action

Look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Put one in your hand and discard the rest.

Each other player reveals the top card of their deck, and discards it or puts it back, your choice.

Just a bit of a buff to the personal card selection/sifting. Vanilla Spy is actually pretty popular in my game group, but we do acknowledge it is not very powerful. I think this change would make it very desirable just for the non-attack effect.
This doesn't solve the problem with spy that it takes too long to resolve
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Xen3k

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #46 on: September 02, 2020, 06:49:46 pm »
0



Quote
Spy - $4
Action - Attack
+1 Action

Look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Put one in your hand and discard the rest.

Each other player reveals the top card of their deck, and discards it or puts it back, your choice.

Just a bit of a buff to the personal card selection/sifting. Vanilla Spy is actually pretty popular in my game group, but we do acknowledge it is not very powerful. I think this change would make it very desirable just for the non-attack effect.
This doesn't solve the problem with spy that it takes too long to resolve



Quote
Spy - $4
Action - Attack
+1 Action

Look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Put one in your hand and discard the rest.

Each other player reveals the top card of their deck. If it is an Action or Treasure discard it, otherwise put it back.

Well, this should address that issue.
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Marpharos

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #47 on: September 04, 2020, 05:47:21 pm »
0

I hadn’t noticed this thread before now! I don’t think I’m in time for a submission this round but I love the idea of updating cards. My ideas are rough and the wording isn’t right I know, but the idea is there!

My Sea Hag would be:
Cost $4
+$2
Each other player reveals the top card of their deck. If it’s:
a Curse, put it back.
Anything else, discard it and gain a Curse on top of your deck.

My Spy would be:
Cost $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
You may reveal the top 3 cards of your deck and discard the Victory cards
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LordBaphomet

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #48 on: September 04, 2020, 07:22:06 pm »
+4

Here are my judgings:

I won't be giving comments individually, since most cards ended up being similar.
I was looking for cards that were:
1. Innovative
2. Bore a resemblance to the original, and
3. Fixed the problem with the original

Honourable mentions: Xen3k, D782802859, LastFootnote
Best spy: grrgrrgrr
Best hag: spineflu

Overall winner: grrgrrgrr

Sorry if you don't agree with the judging, but this is my first time :)
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #49 on: September 05, 2020, 03:53:31 am »
+3

Sick! So I suppose it's my job to judge the next contest. Anyway, next contest will be

Card Updating Contest 2

Make a new version of one (or more) of the following cards:
Explorer
Mine
Royal Seal

I hope you don't mind that I have not put parentheses here. Just use your own interpretation of what those cards should be.

Judging will be in about two weeks.

EDIT: Here are the templates

I have made an Excel file that makes generating those links easier: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5gi45a3vcep6dmb/Dominion%20template%20creator.xls?dl=0

EDIT2: Slightly modified the Royal Seal URL and Explorer URL.

EDIT3: You may edit multiple cards.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2020, 09:18:59 am by grrgrrgrr »
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gambit05

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #50 on: September 05, 2020, 04:54:28 am »
0

Congratulations to grrgrrgrr and thanks to LordBaphomet for your work.

I have a question to your card:

This is basically a mini-Rabble that is more customizable to cooperate with Bandid or Pirate Ship. It is chainable. I'm not sure about the vanilla bonus; I was original thinking about +2 Cards, but that'd possibly make its chainability too good.



Could you explain how the first line "Name any amount of card types" works? I understand it literally in that you could name any existing (and even non-existing) card types. If true that would be quite time consuming and would always guarantee a 100% hit; though probably I misunderstood that card somehow.
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #51 on: September 05, 2020, 05:46:10 am »
0

Congratulations to grrgrrgrr and thanks to LordBaphomet for your work.

I have a question to your card:

This is basically a mini-Rabble that is more customizable to cooperate with Bandid or Pirate Ship. It is chainable. I'm not sure about the vanilla bonus; I was original thinking about +2 Cards, but that'd possibly make its chainability too good.



Could you explain how the first line "Name any amount of card types" works? I understand it literally in that you could name any existing (and even non-existing) card types. If true that would be quite time consuming and would always guarantee a 100% hit; though probably I misunderstood that card somehow.

You can indeed name a lot of different cards. I disagree that it is a 100% guarantueed hit, as it only looks at the top 2 cards. If you name "Action" and "Treasure", then the attack will be literally a weaker Rabble attack. But if you want to play a Bandit or a Pirate Ship after this attack, it can be better to not say "Treasure" (and maybe add "Victory Card" into the mix).
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gambit05

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #52 on: September 05, 2020, 05:55:18 am »
0

Congratulations to grrgrrgrr and thanks to LordBaphomet for your work.

I have a question to your card:

This is basically a mini-Rabble that is more customizable to cooperate with Bandid or Pirate Ship. It is chainable. I'm not sure about the vanilla bonus; I was original thinking about +2 Cards, but that'd possibly make its chainability too good.



Could you explain how the first line "Name any amount of card types" works? I understand it literally in that you could name any existing (and even non-existing) card types. If true that would be quite time consuming and would always guarantee a 100% hit; though probably I misunderstood that card somehow.

You can indeed name a lot of different cards. I disagree that it is a 100% guarantueed hit, as it only looks at the top 2 cards. If you name "Action" and "Treasure", then the attack will be literally a weaker Rabble attack. But if you want to play a Bandit or a Pirate Ship after this attack, it can be better to not say "Treasure" (and maybe add "Victory Card" into the mix).

Okay, thank you. What happens when I name the type "Attack"?
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #53 on: September 05, 2020, 06:06:28 am »
0

Congratulations to grrgrrgrr and thanks to LordBaphomet for your work.

I have a question to your card:

This is basically a mini-Rabble that is more customizable to cooperate with Bandid or Pirate Ship. It is chainable. I'm not sure about the vanilla bonus; I was original thinking about +2 Cards, but that'd possibly make its chainability too good.



Could you explain how the first line "Name any amount of card types" works? I understand it literally in that you could name any existing (and even non-existing) card types. If true that would be quite time consuming and would always guarantee a 100% hit; though probably I misunderstood that card somehow.

You can indeed name a lot of different cards. I disagree that it is a 100% guarantueed hit, as it only looks at the top 2 cards. If you name "Action" and "Treasure", then the attack will be literally a weaker Rabble attack. But if you want to play a Bandit or a Pirate Ship after this attack, it can be better to not say "Treasure" (and maybe add "Victory Card" into the mix).

Okay, thank you. What happens when I name the type "Attack"?
Then it looks at the top 2 cards, discards all Attack cards, and topdecks all non-Attack cards.
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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #54 on: September 05, 2020, 06:29:04 am »
0

Congratulations to grrgrrgrr and thanks to LordBaphomet for your work.

I have a question to your card:

This is basically a mini-Rabble that is more customizable to cooperate with Bandid or Pirate Ship. It is chainable. I'm not sure about the vanilla bonus; I was original thinking about +2 Cards, but that'd possibly make its chainability too good.



Could you explain how the first line "Name any amount of card types" works? I understand it literally in that you could name any existing (and even non-existing) card types. If true that would be quite time consuming and would always guarantee a 100% hit; though probably I misunderstood that card somehow.

You can indeed name a lot of different cards. I disagree that it is a 100% guarantueed hit, as it only looks at the top 2 cards. If you name "Action" and "Treasure", then the attack will be literally a weaker Rabble attack. But if you want to play a Bandit or a Pirate Ship after this attack, it can be better to not say "Treasure" (and maybe add "Victory Card" into the mix).

Okay, thank you. What happens when I name the type "Attack"?
Then it looks at the top 2 cards, discards all Attack cards, and topdecks all non-Attack cards.

Thanks for the explanation. I am curious how that would play out. I mean I could name any types of highly valuable cards: Wharf in the Kingdom, I name "Duration"; Overlord, I name Command; Wild Hunt, I name Gathering etc. I can assure that you put only Treasures and/or Victory back, or if I have a 2nd Spy in hand, let's discard everything the first time and than selectively attack the second time. Sorry for the many questions...

Edit: I got it now.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2020, 07:29:34 am by gambit05 »
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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #55 on: September 05, 2020, 08:53:27 am »
+3

I know, you mentioned to only submit a new version for one of the 3 cards, but I couldn't resist.

Edit: I have changed Royal Seal, thanks to Jonatan Djurachkovitch. The original version can be found in replies #57 & 59.



Mine
$5 – Treasure

Quote
You may trash a Treasure
you have in play. Gain a
Treasure to your hand
costing up to $3 more
than it.

Explorer
$5 – Action

Quote
Gain a Gold. You may
reveal a Province from
your hand to put that Gold
into your hand.

Royal Seal
$4 – Treasure - Duration

Quote
$1
At the start of your next turn, +$1.
--------------------
While this is in play, when
you gain a card, you may put
it onto your deck.

« Last Edit: September 05, 2020, 10:46:28 am by gambit05 »
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #56 on: September 05, 2020, 09:16:19 am »
0

That's fine. The contest is actually a mixture of three contests anyway.
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Jonatan Djurachkovitch

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #57 on: September 05, 2020, 09:56:49 am »
+2

I know, you mentioned to only submit a new version for one of the 3 cards, but I couldn't resist.



Mine
$5 – Treasure

Quote
You may trash a Treasure
you have in play. Gain a
Treasure to your hand
costing up to $3 more
than it.

Explorer
$5 – Action

Quote
Gain a Gold. You may
reveal a Province from
your hand to put that Gold
into your hand.

Royal Seal
$5 – Treasure - Duration

Quote
$2
--------------------
While this is in play, when
you gain a card, you may put
it onto your deck.

This royal seal wouldn't work as you think it would, the ruling on duration cards makes it so that this only works one turn.
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LordBaphomet

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #58 on: September 05, 2020, 10:24:38 am »
0

My entries: (mine will be later)


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gambit05

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #59 on: September 05, 2020, 10:31:09 am »
+2

I know, you mentioned to only submit a new version for one of the 3 cards, but I couldn't resist.



Mine
$5 – Treasure

Quote
You may trash a Treasure
you have in play. Gain a
Treasure to your hand
costing up to $3 more
than it.

Explorer
$5 – Action

Quote
Gain a Gold. You may
reveal a Province from
your hand to put that Gold
into your hand.

Royal Seal
$5 – Treasure - Duration

Quote
$2
--------------------
While this is in play, when
you gain a card, you may put
it onto your deck.

This royal seal wouldn't work as you think it would, the ruling on duration cards makes it so that this only works one turn.

Dammit. I'll change it. Thanks.
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #60 on: September 05, 2020, 01:02:00 pm »
0

My entries: (mine will be later)

I may have added the option to come with multiple ideas. This doesn't mean, however, that you have to. If you have no good ideas for Mine, I'd prefer it if you skip the card (it ain't gonna boost your chances for winning the contest).
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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #61 on: September 05, 2020, 01:46:31 pm »
0

My entries: (mine will be later)

I may have added the option to come with multiple ideas. This doesn't mean, however, that you have to. If you have no good ideas for Mine, I'd prefer it if you skip the card (it ain't gonna boost your chances for winning the contest).

Sorry, I have a decent general idea for mine but still haven't worked out the specifics...
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spineflu

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #62 on: September 06, 2020, 09:25:03 am »
+1


Quote
Royal Seal • $5 • Treasure
Cards cost $2 less this turn.
-
While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may put that card onto your deck.
Quote
Explorer • $5 • Action
You may reveal a Province from your hand. If you do, gain a Gold to your hand. If you don't, gain a Silver to your hand.

You may play an Action card you do not have a copy of in play.
Quote
Mine • $5 • Night
You may trash a Treasure from in play. Gain a Treasure to the top of your deck costing up to $3 more than it.
Royal Seal gets a bridge/quarry-like update.
Explorer gets imp-style non-terminality
Mine becomes a set-up card for money decks (and loses its terminality).
« Last Edit: September 06, 2020, 03:18:29 pm by spineflu »
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Xen3k

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #63 on: September 06, 2020, 12:36:18 pm »
+2


Quote
Royal Seal • $5 • Treasure
If you have an odd number of Royal Seals in play, +1 Buy.

Cards cost $2 less this turn.
-
While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may put that card onto your deck.
Quote
Explorer • $5 • Action
You may reveal a Province from your hand. If you do, gain a Gold to your hand. If you don't, gain a Silver to your hand.

You may play an Action card you do not have a copy of in play.
Quote
Mine • $5 • Night
You may trash a Treasure from in play. Gain a Treasure to the top of your deck costing up to $3 more than it.
Royal Seal gets a bridge/quarry-like update.
Explorer gets imp-style non-terminality
Mine becomes a set-up card for money decks (and loses its terminality).

So this version of Royal Seal makes Provinces cost $4 if you have two of them in play? I think that may be a bit too good. Quarry limiting it's effect to Actions made it reasonable. MAybe just having it effect non-Victory cards?
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spineflu

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #64 on: September 06, 2020, 03:16:33 pm »
0


Quote
Royal Seal • $5 • Treasure
Cards cost $2 less this turn.
-
While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may put that card onto your deck.
Quote
Explorer • $5 • Action
You may reveal a Province from your hand. If you do, gain a Gold to your hand. If you don't, gain a Silver to your hand.

You may play an Action card you do not have a copy of in play.
Quote
Mine • $5 • Night
You may trash a Treasure from in play. Gain a Treasure to the top of your deck costing up to $3 more than it.
Royal Seal gets a bridge/quarry-like update.
Explorer gets imp-style non-terminality
Mine becomes a set-up card for money decks (and loses its terminality).

So this version of Royal Seal makes Provinces cost $4 if you have two of them in play? I think that may be a bit too good. Quarry limiting it's effect to Actions made it reasonable. MAybe just having it effect non-Victory cards?
I mean, that's what silvers do also; i'm gonna take the +buy off tho, that is egregious in retrospect.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2020, 03:18:04 pm by spineflu »
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silverspawn

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #65 on: September 06, 2020, 03:30:28 pm »
+2

If +1 buy, card cost 2$ less is Price-level power, than it seems quite unlikely that your card is balanced.
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spineflu

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #66 on: September 06, 2020, 06:25:50 pm »
0

If +1 buy, card cost 2$ less is Price-level power, than it seems quite unlikely that your card is balanced.
unpack this for me. I removed the buy because the price reduction combined with the +buy was too much; price reduction alone just makes it more useful in +buy games (same deal as quarry)
« Last Edit: September 06, 2020, 06:27:00 pm by spineflu »
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silverspawn

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #67 on: September 08, 2020, 06:12:34 am »
+4

If +1 buy, card cost 2$ less is Price-level power, than it seems quite unlikely that your card is balanced.
unpack this for me. I removed the buy because the price reduction combined with the +buy was too much; price reduction alone just makes it more useful in +buy games (same deal as quarry)

Princess is a Price card that gives +1 buy and makes all cards 2$ cheaper. Compared to Princess, your card has three big advantages

- Doesn't cost an Action (and can't even be drawn dead)
- Does stuff in addition to making things 2$ cheaper
- Can be massed

And two big disadvantages

- hard to use the cost reduction in your action phase since it's a Treasure card
- no +buy

Overall, this seems stronger than Princess, which is probably not good given that Princess is a price card.

The thing that makes Quarry work is that it only applies to Action cards where cost reduction has diminishing returns. If you play two quarries, you can pretty much get one action card per buy you have, but that's one step away from the payload. You're setting up your qurry thing just so that you can build an even stronger engine. Which is definitely good enough on some boards, but it's different from going directly to the green cards.

Perhaps look at it like this. Bridge essentially introduces an alternate win condition: "play 7 of me in one turn". However, this curve slopes steeply upward: playing 5 of 7 does not give you 5/7th of the benefit, rather it probably just isn't good enough (if you start greening then, you won't  connect bridges in the future and probably lose). Your card also introduces an alternate win condition: "play four of these and about 5 cards with +buy". This is much easier to do if there is a cantrip with +buy because it (a) has fewer components that don't draw and (b) has no terminal components. Just market square + your card + trashing wins the game. And it also has a third benefit, which is that the curve is linear with regard to the +buys. Playing just 4 cards with +buy is, in fact, 4/5th as good as playing 5 (as long as you have 4 Royal Seals in play). You still get 5 province.

And because you don't need terminals, it's also doable without a +buy cantrip. It's not too hard to play two squires for +4 buys, or if your card drawer has +buy,that also works.

So this suggests to me that the card is significantly more powerful than bridge, which is probably not ok. Unlike with other cards, the fact that it costs 5$ and not 4$ doesn't change much since it's not about getting it early, and once you have a few, you're bottle-necked by +buys anyway.
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Aquila

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #68 on: September 09, 2020, 08:38:16 am »
+3


Possibly it's doing too much, and the gold discard gain should be just up to $4.
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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #69 on: September 11, 2020, 09:54:03 pm »
+2

Had 2 ideas for Mine



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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #70 on: September 11, 2020, 10:57:04 pm »
0

My Explorer replacement is a split pile:

Quote
Dwarf
$4 - Action
Gain a Treasure card costing up to $5.
Choose one: Put the gained card in your hand, or +2 Cards.

Quote
Mithril Bar
$5 - Treasure
If you have a Dwarf in play, +$3.
Otherwise, +$2.

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #71 on: September 18, 2020, 10:04:24 am »
0

24 h left. (not sure if this is worth continuing)
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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #72 on: September 20, 2020, 09:20:56 am »
+4

So I'll finish my job as judge, in WDC style:

gambit05
  • Mine: This is probably too much of a buff for the turn it's used. C->S makes $3; S->G makes $5 and G->P makes $8. Getting this amount of money out of two cards while also improving your deck sounds rather absurd. I think it is much better by just making Mine produce $1 itself, rather than pulling this kind of stuff.
  • Explorer: It is basically a Courtier that uses Province as a dual type and the rest as a single type (albeit worse). Province is a card that is always in the kingdom and also always useful at some point. However, it isn't useful until endgame and prior to then, it pales very much in comparison to Governor and Courtier. And during endgame, having no direct benefit when not connected to Province can be very frustrating (something the original Explorer doesn't have).
  • Royal Seal: Its topdecking effect last much longer, and it's cheaper! This is probably the buff it needs.

Lordbaphomet
  • Royal Seal (renamed to Royal Decree): I think that this does a little too much for a $4 workshop. First, it's nonterminal no matter what; something we have never seen on a Workshop variant before. And its below-the-line part gives it pretty ridiculous self synergy. Your idea could maybe work on $5, or as a terminal card, but it sounds pretty excessive right now.
  • Explorer: This new version of Explorer is completely worthless in hands without Victory cards, and I'm not sure if the effects are strong enough to make up for that. What loses most of its appeal, is that it only works on the three base Victory cards. You probably should have put: if the Victory Card costs $0-$2 then..., if it costs $3 to $6 then,..., if it costs $7+ then...

spineflu
  • Royal Seal: This is completely busted. A Treasure lowering the price by $2 could maybe work as a $7 card, but not as a $5 cost that has a while-in-play part that works admirably with it. You could have limited the price reduction to Action cards and it would have been a pretty nice buff, albeit awkward as Quarry and Royal Seal are both Prosperity cards.
  • Explorer: You make Explorer less likely to collide terminally, which is definitely a buff. Not sure if this new effect is interesting enough to warrant this much text, or if a simple +1 Action wouldn't be too much, but I like it. 
  • Mine: This new version of Mine, unlike Lordbaphomet's, seems quite weak to be honest. It does nothing against Mine's slowness; in fact it only amplifies it as this worsens the cycling, and is worse on the turns you draw the Mine. On top of that, topdecking a Treasure is generally not something you want (although it is nice with Storyteller). The card no longer being terminal is nice though.
Aquila
  • Explorer: This is a pretty nice Gold gainer that keeps the original Explorer's identity in an elegant way. The discarding options seem rather disjointed, but they work together beautifully. Well done.

NoMoreFun
  • Mine (replaced by Ore/Prospect): You have to stick with one option, so it won't win, but I'm going to judge nonetheless. Ore will pretty much always play as a Gold that is delayed by one shuffle, which seems rather automatic and boring. Prospect is pretty decent (and definitely correctly priced), but not terribly exciting.

LibraryAdventurer
  • Explorer (replaced by Dwarf/Mithril Bar): $5 seems like an odd limit, as that makes the card really strong with $5 costing Treasures (except the crappy ones which are... the majority). Mithril Bars are really good when Dwarfs bestow them, but not really afterward. That said, gaining Silver to your hand is already pretty strong for a $4 cost, and this effect is a strictly superior version of that.

And the winners per category are:

Explorer: Aquila
Mine: Spineflu
Royal Seal: gambit05

And the overall winner is... Aquila

Congratulations Aquila for winning this contest! And you may judge the next iteration.

That said, this thread has been a ghost town for one week straight, so I'm not sure if this contest is worth resuming.
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gambit05

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #73 on: September 20, 2020, 10:38:05 am »
0

Many thank, grrgrrgrr. Good work. Congratulations to Aquila.

Since only 6 people participated in the last round, there doesn't seem too much interest. Just my 2 Cent, but it is up to Aquila.
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LordBaphomet

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #74 on: September 20, 2020, 01:25:49 pm »
0

Yeah, that was fun but I don't think this is worth pursuing further.
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Aquila

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #75 on: September 20, 2020, 01:35:31 pm »
+3

Thanks for doing this grrgrrgrr, and for the win. Yeah, I think it'll be good to think about changes of some description before we go on. Here are my thoughts to start with:

3 cards to consider each time seems too many; ideas and interest will run out quickly.

I guess when people are used to playing the official cards as they are, it's hard for some to think of changes that wouldn't disrupt the game they're familiar with too much? Overall the design space feels limited.

The WDC by contrast has huge potential for different contests, and so it has a long future to look forward to. There doesn't feel like much of a future with this as it is.

There's a bit more design room and future if we start introducing hypothetical expansion sequels. In fact there was a community set design contest on this forum years back, could some revival of that happen? (I had been thinking, if somebody were to make a shareable app for playing fan cards, just like online, there would have to be a 100% fan card 'base set'; what would that be set be? Community pooling of ideas would be great for it.)

Or if the WDC is so popular do we want to basically run 2 at once?

I'd appreciate any feedback, other suggestions, etc.
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silverspawn

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #76 on: September 20, 2020, 02:31:21 pm »
+2

Choose a different mechanism for deciding which cards to update.  I don't think either Explorer or Royal Seal or Sea Hag are poor designs. I wouldn't want any of them changed.
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Jonatan Djurachkovitch

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #77 on: September 20, 2020, 04:09:55 pm »
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I think that you could maybe have a series of contests, where the idea is to add a card to an expansion, and then we do one expansion at a time? Winner is judged by balance and how well it fits into the expansion.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #78 on: September 21, 2020, 08:27:04 am »
+2

The WDC has been so successful, an interesting exercise would be revising or expanding the sets using ideas from the WDC.
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Aquila

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #79 on: September 21, 2020, 12:21:25 pm »
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Choose a different mechanism for deciding which cards to update.  I don't think either Explorer or Royal Seal or Sea Hag are poor designs. I wouldn't want any of them changed.
Here's a passing idea: pick a completely random card to look at for a week, and people can choose either to make a replacement for it (if they think it's bad) or a variant new card (if they think it's already good). I guess looking at 'variant of card X' as a design brief rather than a WDC brief might inspire ideas in different ways? In any case it should help to reveal the good design qualities Donald's put in each of them, and that could generally help improve fan designs.


The WDC has been so successful, an interesting exercise would be revising or expanding the sets using ideas from the WDC.
You mean like a thread that reviews WDC winners and runners-up how they could be best put into the real game, maybe with designed kingdoms? Or discuss playtest findings, possible tweaks, etc?
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LordBaphomet

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #80 on: September 21, 2020, 01:23:05 pm »
+3

I think a "what would you add to x expansion" seems like a good idea. Forces you to go with expansion themes, and say oh this needs big money, this needs player interaction, this needs a VP card, etc.
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D782802859

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #81 on: September 21, 2020, 01:56:00 pm »
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Definitely an idea that allows and encourages more creative freedom.
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Aquila

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #82 on: September 21, 2020, 03:04:22 pm »
+1

Alright. It looks like there are 3 or 4 replies in favour of expanding sets. Then that is what I will go with!

Set expansion contest #1: Base Set

Design a card to add to the base set. I won't specify any categories to patch up, I'll leave that open for you to identify. Just follow the base set rules: easy to understand, add no new mechanics, perhaps introduce players to a certain aspect of the game.
If you want to submit a WDC card, I'm more than happy with that.

Judging time: 28th September 3:00pm forum time
« Last Edit: September 21, 2020, 03:05:48 pm by Aquila »
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D782802859

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #83 on: September 21, 2020, 03:39:33 pm »
0



Another way to build an engine and encourage them in the base set.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #84 on: September 21, 2020, 04:26:39 pm »
+1



Another way to build an engine and encourage them in the base set.
That looks weak. If the kingdom doesn't have another draw card, I'm not usually going to be able to reliably play that late enough in the turn that it draws 3 or more cards; if it does, I'll probably buy that rather than Locksmith.

(It looks stronger in a Seaside-heavy set than a Base-heavy one, but even so, not particularly tempting.)
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #85 on: September 21, 2020, 04:53:44 pm »
+1

I think that if the contest type is being changed, it should be in a new thread.
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Jonatan Djurachkovitch

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Re: Card updating contest
« Reply #86 on: September 22, 2020, 12:48:35 am »
0

Yeah, I have an idea for my card, but I will wait until this is a new thread.
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